But is it because if the medication or because of the mental illness that required the medication in the first place?

An assumption could be made that the demographic breakdown only covers the medicated, therefore it appears to be the factor in causality. There is no equal numerical representation for the non-medicated yet diagnosed mentally ill. If there were, one could make the case that the data did not point towards medication as causation.

(Echoing another user) And why are school shoots so frequent in the US compared to other countries, when SSRIs are used all over the world? How can SSRIs be the primary factor when we do not see the same spikes in other countries?

My opinion? Maybe it's more of a cultural problem.

And why are school shoots so frequent in the US compared to other countries, when SSRIs are used all over the world?

Weapon access & culture

Any kid can grab a knife from the kitchen though.

If you honestly think that it's as easy to kill multiple people in a short span of time with a knife as it is with a firearm, you're not thinking hard enough.

It absolutely is. The number one thing you need to concern yourself with is population density where the attack goes down. Someone in a crowded square, 6 months of working out, and a sharp blade is going to seriously fuck a lot of people up. A mall would be better than a square though because people would be slowed down fleeing. Theres a million factors that go into it, but a blade is just as deadly.

Okay, then why don't we ever hear about "mass knifings" in America?

Hint: Because it's easier to kill a lot of people with a gun.

No, it's because it's just as easy to get a gun. If you go to a place where it is more difficult to get a gun, like, say, England, you find a lot more assaults with knives.

People are going to go on killing each other for whatever reasons exist in the current social culture. Whether it be terrorism, government sponsored terrorism, mental health issues, racism, or any of the million odd personal reasons somebody thinks that it's okay to take other's lives. They are simply going to find the best tool they can for the job. I work with a knife in a kitchen and I can absolutely guarantee you I could kill a man with just as little effort with that knife as I could with my gun. The ONLY difference would be in how close I needed to be to do it.

No, it's because it's just as easy to get a gun.

That's just not true at all. It is undoubtedly easier to get your hands on a knife than a gun. I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make, but you're not doing a good job.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1036154/A-knife-attack-4-minutes-130-000-year--ministers-insist-crime-rates-falling.html

Come on guy. When you are shooting people you can just stand a safe distance and spray. When you go in for a knife attack you better not miss that moving target or else that mofo is fighting for his life and can get you off balanced and other people can jump in. You don't have to get that close to people with a gun and it allows you to survive longer. When you walk into a room you can just sit there and shoot everyone from a safe distance. If you start going into the mayhem and stabbing people you leave yourself vulnerable. I mean honestly would you rather be facing down a guy with a knife or an automatic weapon. I pick knife and start throwing desks and chairs at him.

No he ain't. It's really easy to disarm a man with a knife if you aren't a little bitch

Ah well, you’d be the expert

I've actually disarmed a guy with a knife before because I'm not a little bitch

Like I said, you're the expert.

I guess that explains why modern warfare evolved from swords into knives and not something like guns.

I'm not arguing that guns are not the better option. I'm simply making a strong case for why blades are actually dangerous as fuck. I work with one every single day, I'm quite familiar with how dangerous they are.

I think you're arguing to argue, because no one in their right mind would think that knives aren't dangerous.

You'd be shocked at the number of people that mishandle knives.

No, I wouldn't. Knives are sharp. And yes, I know dull knives can be even more dangerous. You working with knives doesn't give you some kind of insider knowledge of a tool that's been around for thousands of years.

mass murder is way more successful with arson than a firearm.

Wait, didn't 2 men with box cutters take down a building which killed thousands?

How many people can a kid kill with a knife before they get overpowered? A kid with an assault rifle wouldn’t have that problem

Also stabbing someone to death is so much more personal as opposed to shooting someone , this one never held up to me because it's a lot easier to get over killing someone if all you do is press a trigger, not stab a human being till their life drains from their body

But then again the people who are running the US are probably not afraid of knife attacks.

You trolling bro? You comparing an AR15 to a knife?

It’s not a weapon problem. It’s a mental health problem. Don’t sacrifice your weapons right because of mass shooters. Some mass shootings are set up by FBI/CIA

I mean I'm all for gun rights but it still is a weapon problem. And I know some people love to point out how these school shootings are government hoaxs but like these are real kids getting shot idk man I don't trust the government either but I just don't get how they would conduct a fake mass shooting like this.

Some mass shootings are set up by FBI/CIA

If they led to a law being passed or something I would see the possibility, but nothing is achieved but senseless death.

He didn't say they were good at it.

They are good at it though.

Maybe that's why they stage ones with senseless killing. Keeps us guessing.

Do you think there may be a cumulative effect and that, eventually, mass shootings will lead to gun control?

Or even a generation or two later and mass killings every week, the populace wouldn't demand action?

Its a case history for when the TPTB actually want to take large action.

(i don't believe in sandy hook false flag and stuff like that) but weapon sales and company stock always goes up after mass shootings.

It always amazes me that people fail to make this connection. They debate endlessly between mental health and stricter laws. “Why the false flag? It must be totalitarianism!” Maybe the goal is to have an overwhelmingly armed populace that would be impossible to take over by an invading force. Just a guess ;)

The crazies in other countries without easy access to buy a weapon, don't go on school shootings.

Some mass shootings are set up by FBI/CIA

Jesus Christ.

THere's actually a few well documented cases of this. Check wikipedia to start.

It's a mental health problem, a gun problem and a culture problem. We need to figure out how to stop people with mental health problems from getting guns.

Exactly.

People need to start recognizing mental health problems just as seriously as physical health problems.

How many are direct result of parents not being responsible gin owners?

True, in the rural south there is a culture of kids having access as young as 11-12. I like that kids are trained on gun safety, but emotional teenagers having access is a mistake for evryone.

I agree with this. I would teach my kid so they understand EXACTLY how a gun was dangerous, and what never to do to it. And then it would be secured behind a few inches of solid steel and they would not get the combo.

A few inches of solid steel is going to be one hell of a safe.

A "safe" made out of sheet metal that I could open with a hammer was like 200lb, I can only imagine the cost of a few inches.

A good safe is priceless

I was being figurative, not literal

My father spent $900 on a full sized gun case. I couldn't get into there if I tried.

I was and hung out with other emotional teenagers (aren't they all) that had access to guns from a young age. No one I know ever shot up a school or anyone else. It's parenting or lack thereof that's the biggest contributer I think.

I don't know enough about the parents or home situations of these kids to agree, but it is a definite possibility.

Definitely a mixture of the mental illness and their environment. Most of the school shooters were bullied heavily in school which probably causes their mental illness, add in parents who don’t check on their kids/poor discipline and you’ve got the perfect school shooter.

Both of his adoptive parents have passed away. Feel like an asshole yet?

Damn. Really? Given up for adoption and they both die? How did they die? Recently?

His mom died in November.

Why would that make me feel like an asshole?

i was thinking exactly this earlier. im fine with people owning guns, but i think itshould be socially unacceptable for people to have easily accesible guns with kids under 18 in your home. the parents definitely bear some responsibility here. id love to see a study on avg ages of mass shooters, because a kid shooting up a school seems 100× more common than some guy shooting up hos workplace.

I got my first rifle before I was 10 years old. I was taught to respect weapons and understand the damage they could do. My peers were taught as well. I was an emotional fucked up teen but I never shot anyone. I'm 53 now and I still haven't.

Most people never shoot or kill anyone, normal healthy people do not unless pushed to the edge.

As someone from the south who grew up shooting guns well before the age of 11 or 12, i cant think of anyone who was raised like me who ever did something stupid with a gun. I had a lot more respect for guns than other kids who were never around them; they were always the ones acting a fool, waving and pointing them around. Unloaded or not, thats a way to get your ass kicked.

That's a bit like saying, "how many drunk driving incidents are caused by irresponsible drivers?" All of them (there are trivial numbers of truly exceptional cases, such as someone discovering the hard way that they have a genetic condition that renders them drunk on very little alcohol). But what is that an argument for? Not creating strong rules and liability around the sales of alcohol and access to vehicles while impaired?

People don't get firearms from friends or other acquaintances?

I didn't think the question was about the source of the weapons. That was certainly not clear from the comment I replied to.

How many are the result of parents not being responsible gun owners?

The same number as the number of school shootings perpetrated by parents...Zero.

I think I remember them blaming it on the colleges

No. Its just culture. Healthy, sane, productive, valued, loved people do not murder other people. Improve the culture and guns are irrelevant. Dont fix the culture and it doesnt matter what you do about guns.

Nah, Korean schoolkids are pushed to the core, very unhealthy. Sadly they do things like suicide and self harm more than average, but they haven't had a school shooting in my lifetime because nobody can get guns.

Isn't there still adolescent violence and severe bullying in korea though? People still get hurt. And if they had access to guns they would probably also commit many school shootings. Which strengthens the point that it's the culture that causes children to be violent. We need to raise our children better. The Netherlands, for example, or Poland, doesn't have the same school culture as here or Korea, and they don't have the same level of suicide and destructive action among students as here or Korea.

Yeah but if you already have a big problem about your culture and education then wouldn't you agree it's best to restrict gun ownership? It's logical to minimize the dangers if the situation is mostly out of control. You don't change a culture in a few years.

While we definitely need to raise our children better, in evaluating school shootings, some people strain to look for causes, when if you just look at other countries you can see: The biggest factor in the answer of "Does country X have school shootings" is whether or not its easy for an ordinary person to get a gun.

To blame school shootings on SSRI overuse, or mental health issues, or bad culture, or anything else is missing the forest for the trees. Take away easy access to guns (as Australia did, many years ago) and school shootings magically disappear. It's common sense.

Asian societies as a whole have less crime. It has nothing to do with unavailability of tools or whatever you need to commit random crimes. Their culture simply doesn't glorify violence and crime, and respect is valued more

Are you really going to compare Korean culture to the US because they are pushed to the limit? Come on now. The US doesn't have the highest number of school shootings because of a race to the top but a race to the bottom. There is no comparison between the two, any part of US society compared to other modern countries is a complete clusterfuck because the US has allowed to let money rule every part of their existence to the point that it's legalized corruption. The net result is that corporations have their talons on everything and as a result everything favours profit instead of the benefit of the people. I think very few Americans have any idea how bad the situation is because they've grown up with it.

People can get guns all over the world if they want to shoot someone, the idea that people don't shoot others because they can't get to them is as incorrect as saying people wont do drugs if you apply enough repressive measures, it's all about mentality. That last step of getting a gun sure is easier in the US, but it's a minor detail, if people were that desperate to hurt those around them, they would have school stabbings in Korea.

Killing with a knife and killing with a gun are very different actions. This killer had a passion for both knives and guns, judging by his Instagram photos. Can you guess why he chose to kill with a gun and not a knife? Could it be that it's psychologically and physically easier? Hmm..

Have you been to any other countries? I have lived in 4 countries, including the US and Korea. It's impossible to get a gun in South Korea.

A few years back, a solider got drunk and took a single gun off a military base somewhere. It was interrupting, national news until that single gun was found.

That's not the point, the point is that even if they would be able to get one, it wouldn't automatically lead to situations like the US. Korea might be an exception when it comes to being able to get a gun, but school shootings seem to be a cultural phenomenon reserved for the US, so it obviously isn't simply because they have guns coming out the wazoo.

Lol as if Samsung doesn't own Korea...

Lol OK, arguing the problem with guns in the US doesn't involve the ease of access to guns? Argue its more about culture if you want but flat out denying access is part of it is what got your country to this point.

i have guns, why am i not killing people?

Don't equate "the problem involves ease of access to guns" to "having a gun makes you a murderer" If you're not an idiot you know damn well that's not the point being made. People being able to get guns really easily is how the people that shouldn't have them can plan mass murders. Americans are so helplessly obsessed you can't even just keep it to slow-firing handguns. That reaction of "well I'm not a mass murderer, so access to guns isn't the problem" just shows how little you've thought about the problem. Other people are. There will always be people fucked in the head and if you make it easy for them to get an automatic assault rifle they're going to use them. You're right about the culture being a huge problem, but part of that culture is that people want easy access to tools meant for killing many people, and any logic that points out the problems with that is met with hostility and fear. the NRA is a goddamn Cult.

I own guns. Why am I not a mass murderer?

Posting the same comment just shows you're here to stir shit not make a point.

Gun aspect is not irrelevant. The tiny bump on the difficulty in obtaining a firearm makes a substantial difference. Small obstacles, that do not prevent normal gun owners, help to filter out cases that have no time, patience or trust to go trough formal channels. This makes them to choose another (most of the time) less deadly tools.

Or just buy a gun illegally.

This again filters people. You need more money and connections to get illegal guns. You need to find some one that has proper weapons and is willing to take a risk of selling to you. There is added risk with the possibility of sting operations or seller just jacking your money. Again reducing the odds of a mass shooting.

Lol. Look at the data.

https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/56b381f5dd0895c4558b46ad-960-946.png

Correlation is not causation.

Jesus fucking Christ you have no idea what that statement means.

All fucking causation are also correlation.

So I guess smoking doesn’t cause cancer right?

Clouds don’t mean rain right?

All correlations do not equal causation, but correlation is evidence.

A fucking caveman could figure out that when it rains there is clouds. You gonna fucking spout off that that’s a correlation so the clouds don’t mean rain??

You take correlations and you test them for causation. That’s the entire fucking scientific process. You run control groups to test different correlations and find which do or do not have causation.

Correlation is not necessarily causation

Nor is it also NOT causation for sure either.

All fucking causation are also correlation

That is correct. Every causation also has a correlation you can draw.

Smokers are more likely to get cancer. That’s a correlation.

But smoking causing cancer is a causation. A factual one.

People who eat mcdonalds often are more likely overweight.

High calorie foods mean weight gain.

Are you denying any of the above to be true?

Nope. I'm agreeing with the person above that correlation isn't always causation. In your link the US is at 110 per 1000, and Iceland, the second highest, is at 106 per 1000.

How many other countries with high rates of antidepressant usage have problems with mass killings?

This is a single data point. Let’s say psychiatric drugs do cause violent tendencies. So in the US guns are aplenty so guns are used.

In Australia and Iceland the gun ownerships is extremely low. So when one gets violent tendencies... they obviously can’t go shooting people.

So by comparing gun violence between countries with entirely different gun cultures you add in an irrational and incomparable data point.

If you had two countries with virtually identical gun ownership rates and laws. Then you could compare drug usage rates and see any difference.

High calorie foods do not cause weight gain or Michael Phelps would be an elephant. Me thinks you protest too much.

High calorie foods do not cause weight gain

Yes they do lol. Weight gain is calorie intake > calorie burning.

High calorie foods cause weight gain, unless countered by extreme exercise. So using an olympic swimmer isn't a sensible refutation.

Ok. Enjoy your kool-aid, then.

For anyone that isn’t proud of their blue pill choice:

https://experiencelife.com/article/the-calorie-myth/

"It’s not that calories don’t exist or that the “calories in, calories out” equation doesn’t apply"

From your poorly written obviously biased article from a nobody trying to sell his book.

GO ahead then buddy. Eat a ton of high calorie foods, don't exercise, and show me how you don't gain weight.

I eat 5000 calories a day and don’t exercise and weigh 155. You are a fool.

Lmao sure you do. You might be 16 if that were true. Wait til you hit your 20s.

I’m 35. FOH w ur ignorance.

You're just lying. Literally this has never been documented. I'm gonna go with what pro athletes around the world know.

They eat super high calorie/high protein because they burn 7000 calories per day. It's simple math. Changing your metabolism/hormones, etc. changes how much each person burns per day, by the order of hundreds.

To burn 5000 calories per day without exercise you'd have to be running at a temperature of probably 105.

I’m sure your High School health teacher is right. Get back to class, little boy.

On a full read. This is basically the keto diet that he is recommending. Almost to the T.

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/debunking-the-calorie-myth

http://drhyman.com/blog/2014/04/10/calories-dont-matter/

https://rebootedbody.com/calories/

You need to take it down a notch and think your shit through. Youre saying quite a few things that are incorrect, and I doubt anyone has any chance to convince you of this.

No. Everything I said is in fact accurate. Correlation doesn’t equal causation. But that doesn’t mean a correlation isn’t a causation.

It’s simply means on its own it is not a causation.

And I’m not going to take it down a notch because there are 65 comments from people on this thread saying this exact same correlation causation comment with zero other data or information given.

This is not a spurious comparison in the example of this thread. Most drugs like this have a blackbox warning saying they can cause violent thoughts or behaviors. So when there is a statistic that a high percentage of them are the shooters, or rather a high percentage of shooters are on them... that is not a spurious correlation. It is data.

So when there is a statistic that a high percentage of them are the shooters, or rather a high percentage of shooters are on them.

Where is that statistic?

I actually agree with you so ill still suggest you to slow down but feel free to leave it on the table, I dont mind.

Based on my research, these dangerous class of pharmaceuticals should be avoided not pushed. We are in the midst of a great human experimentation, with eerie similarities to Eugenics (Serotonin reuptake inhibitors even mess with the sex drive. I wouldnt be surprised if this is channeled towards violence in those prone to it)

I know exactly what the statement means, it's just a FAR FUCKING STRETCH to connect those statistics.

"Well we top the charts in both school shootings & ssri use, guess they're related, ahyuck"

. The information it suggests is that the next thing to do would be to observe control groups of diagnosed and undiagnosed individuals. Medicated and non medicated. And see if there are higher levels of violence in the medicated vs non medicated.

I can agree with that, but the guy I was debating earlier is all like "Lol. Look at the data."

So do you think his one fucking chart lines it all up perfectly? Or you disagree with me so decided to be a dick?

It’s not a stretch. SSRIs have warnings that say they cause violent thoughts and behaviors or can.

We already have black box warnings in the USA that these drugs cause violent behavior. Now a stat shows most shooters are on these drugs that are proven and have warnings of causing violent behavior...

It is plain ignorance, and I don’t know why you are so opposed to looking at that possibility.

It’s not a stretch at all. If anything it seems to be data that implies that what the black box warning issued by the fda says is true.

. Now a stat shows most shooters are on these drugs

Show me this, OP's links are not the majority, one article says 90% and lists like 6, the other lists 35, but we have about 70 per year.

It’s very hard to find details in every case because many of the records are sealed due to being minors.

The most famous of mass shooters were all medicated. Easy to find that.

Here’s some more data (biased source but sort through the opinion for the info and it is compelling).

The key is that 90% of the records released show them being medicated.

If there are psychiatric records unreleased that would also mean treatment/medication.

The key is that 90% of the records released show them being medicated.

Are you finding a good source on this figure? A good portion of them were withdrawing, which can produce worse symptoms than the original depression.

Australia 3rd in anti depressants, last in school shootings

No guns...

They ended up with tighter gun control laws after the Port Arthur Massacre mass shooting in 1996. They had tons of guns before that.

And? The spike in psychotropic medication occurred since the 90s.

I'm not even sure what your position is dude, but the fervor with which you defend yourself from attacks has me interested. Dude says "weapon access and culture" lead to the attacks, you say "lol no look at this data, it's SSRIs" and then later say Australia doesn't have this problem because they don't have weapon access.

Clearly, you too think weapon access plays a role in school shootings, why laugh at the guy for saying the same thing? Is it because you don't think culture plays a part at all? That seems like a pretty dubious claim. Why doesn't Canada, for example, have a higher rate of school shootings?

I'm absolutely not for gun control, I just think you're trying to reduce a complex issue into something misleadingly simple. Why shouldn't I think American culture plays a part in the equation?

there are plenty of other countries where citizens have access to guns (including a few where citizens HAVE to own guns by law...) and they don't see shootings like we do.

Culture is definitely the problem, among other things probably.

In which country must people own guns by law?

Madeupistan

in Switzerland there is compulsory military service, during which a conscript MUST store their weapon inside their home when not in use. Private citizens can also buy rifles and whatnot, just like in the US, except they have an interesting permit system

They have a gun homicide rate of .21 per 100k ... US has over 10x that, at 3.6

in Switzerland there is compulsory military service, during which a conscript MUST store their weapon inside their home when not in use. Private citizens can also buy rifles and whatnot, just like in the US, except they have an interesting permit system

citizens HAVE to own guns by law

Thats quite a big difference

First off all, military service isn't compulsatory for women, while they make up 50% of our citizens. Secondly one third of the male population is unfit for service and therefore does not get a gun. Then, even when you're in the army, you can still do a so called 'weaponless' service and are not forced to have a gun.

You also never own the gun during your military service, it's just in your possession. (You can actually buy it at the end, but it will be refitted to semi-automatic and you need a permit)

Noone is forced to keep the gun at home either, you can give it to the armory if you don't want it at home. You also don't get any ammo anymore unless you'rd in a special unit.

In general, the swiss arms law are much stricter than in america, the recent shooting in Florida for example would have been extremely hard to do in Switzerland. You need a permit to buy a gun, selling a gun needs to be reported, having gun stolen needs to be reported and will get you in legal trouble.

Bullshit and SSRIs are handed out like candy in the usa

What's bullshit?

I was meaning to reply to someone but i cant find the comment now

That explains the homicide rate (like gang shootings that account for most urban homicides) but these school shootings are not really explained by culture imo. The shooters are almost always very strange social outcasts. Access to weapons is definitely a factor.

But school shootings are a "thing" now. Since Columbine was so heavily sensationalized by the media, everyone knows the story. It's sad that it sounds like a good idea to fucked up kids.

The massive amount prescribed in the US is the primary factor. We are the most drugged country in the world by a massive margin.

And many of us need those meds. What are you proposing here?

There have been rapid fire guns for over 150 years but these mass murders only started after psychoactive drugs came on the market. At least outside of war.

There have been mass shootings since well before that. Before mass shootings there were other forms of mass killing.

Can you name one of those mass shootings?

This was what I found, didn’t look too deep however

There was an obvious spike in the 90s. Infographic also only goes up until 2013.

For example?

Civil war, duh! /s

I specifically excluded war. I should exclude crime too. When most people think of mass murder, they're thinking of people who start murdering people they don't even know, have nothing against. The first one I can find is after WWII.

So kids have had unfettered access to AR15s for 150 years? America has an unhealthy obsession with firearms. It's a gun problem, a culture problem, an access to gun problem, a parenting problem. Both parents working 40 hours a week, with no real chance to raise the child plays a part along with everything else.

It's drugs. And guns.

A revolver, a repeating rifle are rapid fire, and both have been around about 150 years. And, in those days, parents might be working even longer hours than most do today.

Women worked 150 years ago?

Damn straight. Some in factories and as servants but most did farm and household labor.

One of the only countries that let drug companies advertise their drugs, and the massive over prescribing of anti depressants.

The news media LOVES a good school shooting. Lots of ratings and attention !

Americans take more psych meds than other people in the world

http://m.theweek.com/articles/480090/americas-startling-use-mentalillness-drugs-by-numbers

Ok? Australia is 3rd in that list. How many school shootings have they had in the past 10 years?

the only one that comes to mind is Monash Uni: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monash_University_shooting

we do have an arson rate 3 times that in the states, make of that what you will...

I just had a thought. If you popped me on ignore, what is the point of tagging me in Res, as you won’t see this anyway?

Guns are way more difficult to come by there than in the US

Because no other country give such an easy access to those meds in those quantities.
Simple.
The US has a mental health problem, disguised as a gun problem.
Mental health doesn't just mean that people are mental, it also means how mental health is treated.
Other country let the cray go cray, and then lock them up.

You should give Joe Rogan credit when using his phrase. Australia is 3rd on the list of anti depressant usage but have had no school shootings for years. No mass shootings for years period. Do you know why?

Are automatic guns as easy to acquire in AUS?

Real question as I don't really know.

America is #1 antidepressant usage per capita. 11% of Americans over the age of 12 take an antidepressant. http://www.businessinsider.com/countries-largest-antidepressant-drug-users-2016-2

These drugs have black box warnings on them regarding suicide. Combine that with access to guns and you've got a problem.

So then the proximate solution would be gun control, but the root solution would be better healthcare.

except noone ever proposes a gun control solution that would actually have prevented any mass shootings which is why nothing ever happens on that front. Literally just a bunch of politicians using tragedy for publicity with no intent to actually change anything at all.

Well there was one legislation put forward after Sandy Hook by Obama.... It was finalized & in place as of Dec 2016, but was removed in February 2017 by Trump and Republican controlled House & Senate.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-signs-bill-revoking-obama-era-gun-checks-people-mental-n727221

Definitely a good regulation, but, unfortunately, wouldn't have stopped most kids, since they get their guns from their parents

Unfortunately that legislation is no longer in place.

As for the kids getting guns... Parents should have firearms locked up. Gun and ammo in two different places.

Perhaps the parents, the owners of the weapons should be punished as well, as the responsible party for the weapon itself?

Do you think giving gun owners legal responsibilities for how their mishandling of firearms would help? Knowledge that they could be charged with... Hmmm. Manslaughter? Contribution to a firearm crime? Liability lawsuits? May help keep their weapons properly locked up, to prevent deaths caused by third party users of their firearms...

It is illegal, in my state at least (MN), to have your guys easily accessible to children. So yes there usually are legal responsibilities in place for gun owner. I don't think people realize there already are a large number of laws in place for legal and responsible gun ownership.

Child Endangerment; Access to Firearms (Gross Misdemeanor) It is a gross misdemeanor to intentionally or recklessly cause a child under the age of 14 to be placed in a situation likely to substantially harm the child’s physical health or cause the child’s death as a result of the child’s access to a loaded firearm. It is also a gross misdemeanor to negligently store or leave a loaded firearm in a location where the person knows or should know that a child under the age of 18 is likely to gain access, unless reasonable steps are taken to secure the firearm against access by the child.

Not taking reasonable steps to secure a firearm (from anyone) should absolutely have some sort of punishment attached to it if their property was utilized in a crime.. If not criminal, then at least financial liability per victim.

what in the everliving fuck good is my firearm for self and home defense if i keep it and the ammo in separate locked containers

It is good for children not shootings themselves. (Or children shooting other people).

the best way to do that (if we’re arguing about people taking psych meds) is making it illegal for ppl taking psych meds to buy guns. but even if you do that (which is something that i agree should be implemented) there’s also the black market. banning guns for psych med users could deter mass shootings but it’s not possible to prevent them all. if said person can’t get them legally they can try getting em off the street. conversely you can argue that said person might not have the resources or connections to get a gun which is a good argument, but you can kill in other ways; the headlines merely change based on the tool the person uses. you could argue that said person won’t commit the crime cause it’s easier to be apprehended when you’re running around stabbing ppl as opposed to being protected with a gun but most school shooters wind up killing themselves in the end so their personal safety isn’t really a priority

Do you really think it's a wise idea to restrict the constitutional rights of an individual not based on what they've done, but because of the actions of a minority group(the small % of people who commit mass shootings) they and others share traits with?

i don’t really like the idea of taking away people’s rights but most school shootings have been committed from people that were taking psych meds so it seems there’s a little bit of a correlation. as an aside i also listed the weaknesses of this hypothetical legislation (black market, resorting to alternative killing methods etc) so it could have no effect at all

but if it has even a .0000000001% chance to prevent something like this from happening then i do think it’s wise. “constitutional rights” are all subjective based on the country you live in. look at japan, citizens aren’t allowed to own guns at all and they’re doing alright. they also have the 2nd lowest gun violence rate % in the world. im not saying that’s because solely bc of the ban on guns, imo it’s more of a cultural thing plus they only have a third of the population we have. they also have an alarmingly high suicide rate compared to the US so they have their own problems but im getting off track here. i’m also a person who would be banned in this hypothetical scenario since i take psych meds plus i actually like guns (i go to the shooting range every now and then)

but if it has even a .0000000001% chance to prevent something like this from happening then i do think it’s wise.

But why stop with just guns? If we are willing to take away someone's constitutional rights to mitigate a very small risk(since most people who take these drugs do not go on shootings, and most people who own guns do not use them in crimes) why not take away other people privileges that are not protected as rights if there is even a small risk of them harming themselves or others? Why you we allow people who drink to drive at all? After all, it's only a matter of time before some among them get behind the wheel drunk. The problem with this kind of logic is it's very easy to start hacking away at peoples rights, freedoms, and privileges when they have done nothing wrong, just because there is a small risk they might abuse those things. If the mentally ill can't own guns, then why should they be able to have children, drive cars, or have free speech either? There's a risk in each of those things that other people will be harmed.

i’m also a person who would be banned in this hypothetical scenario since i take psych meds plus i actually like guns but im willing to sacrifice that right if it has a chance to prevent tragedies like this

It's nice if your intentions are to make sacrifices to help others, even if I do think you are misguided in how to do that.

now that i think about it, you could just implement a system of requiring a license to own a gun, plus verifying mental health status, taking gun safety courses, having to pass exams on gun safety etc and that could potentially deter someone bc of all the hoops they’d have to jump through, this way rights could still be preserved, but as i said earlier if it’s not a gun they could use a knife. it’s all speculation. im just trying to remain as objective as possible

The fact is the vast majority of gun owners do not commit crimes with guns, and the vast majority of guns are not used in crimes. From what I understand, most gun crimes are committed by people who acquired a firearm illegally, or even that the firearm was stolen. These ideas have been proposed before by people who have done very little research into gun crimes (no offense) and every time people have to tell them those ideas are going to do very little except inconvenience people who will never commit crimes with their guns. I also don't think your rights are being preserved if you put up a tremendous amount of hoops that someone must go through to use those rights. That's an easy way to make someone apathetic about the rights they have, by making it such a hassle to use them you ensure people will not go through the effort of using them at all.

If we want to prevent shootings, it's much better to focus on the problems in society that cause shootings, such as socioeconomic status, and helping the mentally ill get treatment beyond medication. That's going to prevent more shootings than taking away people's rights.

i’ll be replying to your last paragraph. i’m on mobile and it takes forever to copy the quote

i’m aware most gun owners do not commit crimes. keep in mind the scenario i posed only affects those taking psych meds, not everyone. only around 10% of ppl in the US actively take psych meds so it’d be a very small minority of people. and in this scenario i’m not outright banning them, just putting on restrictions where there’s been a common correlation

it only makes sense that someone’s mental aptitude be tested and confirmed before gaining ownership if they are currently taking psych meds because there IS a correlation, especially in the US, where the perpetrators of school shootings usually suffer from some sort of mental illness requiring psych medication. i’m not trying to imply psych meds cause these tragedies to happen, but this can work as a deterrent bc the individual might not want to jump through all the hoops. a psych med user who is stable and likes guns shouldn’t have any problems, their rights aren’t being restricted because they still have access, they just have to confirm a couple of things first. a system like this isn’t perfect but there’s no detriment to it and it can only help

but what % of shooters actually bought the guns they used? Didn't a significant amount use guns from other people like family members? What % of shootings would this even stop?

I don't really like the idea of restricting the rights of people on certain medications. Medications can have lots of different indications for use. For example I take lamotrigine because I have a seizure disorder, but lamotrigine is also used for people with bipolar disorder. That is a slippery slope that I can't get behind. We can't restrict people based on diagnosis either because of HIPAA.

i don’t like the idea either, i was just replying to the guy who threw a blanket statement out there. that would be the perfect way but it’s not fair at all and i agree with your points. ultimately it comes down to culture and self sacrifice. look at japan’s gun violence rate compared to the US; it’s astronomically lower bc basically no one can have guns. no guns = no gun crime. but the gun culture of japan isn’t even close to that of the US. historically japanese fought hand to hand or with weapons like kunai/swords/shuriken etc whereas the US’s history is riddled with guns. japan has also never had a mass school shooting, only one where the perpetrator used a knife. from this i can only ascertain it’s because of a difference in culture. japanese people are more accepting of self sacrifice for the whole whereas those in the US are not, mainly republicans, but that’s obvious since they oppose gun restrictions. i don’t align with either side, i like guns, i’m just brainstorming

Here in South Africa you are allowed to own guns but you have to apply for a license. In order to get that license you go to some lectures you have to pass a competency test and write an exam on all the laws pertaining to guns and gun ownership. You also have to provide affidavits from several people attesting to your state of mental health. If you pass you can then buy a gun. If you want another gun you have to motivate why you need another gun, apply for a license for the second gun and then wait until it is issued before you get the second gun. All in all if you want a gun you can get one , but it’s not a quick process and there are very strict laws on where and how you keep your guns. If a gun is lost/stolen you can get into serious trouble.

The documentary Chappie has a different perspective, it seems a large number of criminals have guns as well. Did they apply for a gun license? /S

Nope, they stole them from the police.

https://www.timeslive.co.za/news/south-africa/2017-09-07-police-negligence-arms-criminals-with-7829-guns-says-afriforum/

Also... were you being mean there? Why?

Nah, just joking with you.

Oh good! I dumped Facebook, too many bitter and twisted people hang out there. Still getting used to Reddit which seems to be a FAR more intelligent and happier place that I have learnt a lot from. Plus redditors seem to really like dogs and cats which is usually a sign of well adjusted folk.

Nice, saved

I'm 53 years old. My generation never even had a thought of shooting up a school. I think the reason is because we were allowed to fight. If there was a bully somebody in the school would kick his ass and teach him a lesson. At most we'd get a few days suspension and a good talking to. I think zero tolerance causes kids to keep those emotions bottled up until they snap. How many times have we heard of the football captain doing a school shooting. It's always the nerds, the outcasts, the ones with emotional and mental problems. The bullied and the outcasts. In today's atmosphere these kids are literally bullied til they can't take it anymore often with the tacit approval of school authorities. Let the damn kids fight it out, hell toss them in a boxing ring with a pair of gloves if need be. Kids are under too much stress and that anger has to go somewhere.

How many times have we heard of the football captain doing a school shooting. It's always the nerds, the outcasts, the ones with emotional and mental problems. The bullied and the outcasts. In today's atmosphere these kids are literally bullied til they can't take it anymore often with the tacit approval of school authorities. Let the damn kids fight it out, hell toss them in a boxing ring with a pair of gloves if need be.

So let the jocks beat up the nerds so they don't shoot up the place? Gotcha.

Don't stand in the way when one or more nerds kick the shit out of a jock. I was a small kid and I fought my way out of a corner more then once. Guess what! After most teenage fights the fighters end up as friends.

He was talking about fighting back, not letting bullying happening.

If for once I could blast my bullies in the face and not expect "equal retribution" I probably would've been a lot more stress free.

While likely not the whole deal, it certainly plays into it. Zero tolerance is bad, but selective zero tolerance is worse. Teachers and school faculty do play favorites and everyone turns a blind eye to what the popular or the rich kids do. It only ever is considered a problem when the smaller kid sticks up for himself. Then it's suddenly a huge issue and the entire school administration gets involved.

It's not that bullying should be tolerated, it's that we need to let kids stand up to bullies and not punish them for doing so. Also, you talked about the punishment being a few days suspension and a talking to. Well when I was growing up in school the punishment for any fighting was 10 days out of school suspension, cops were called, and a minimum $200 fine was issued. And oh gee, sure is a coincidence that there is such a nice size fine for kids fighting in school and the cops are called at the drop of a hat. I'm sure everything was totally on the up and up and that there were in no way kickbacks to the school from the police for all this extra revenue. Afterall, the cops were only at the school every single day.

That's exactly what I mean. When kids are allowed to fight back bullies give up. It's been a very long time but I don't remember ever seeing a cop at my high school unless it was at a football game.

You are right on! What ever happened to letting them work it out behind the A&P? As a 13 year old middle schooler, a girl was bullying me on the bus on the daily. I remember telling my dad about it and he told me that the next time she threatened to beat me up, tell her that we can fight it out in my front yard when the bus dropped me off. The next day she started it again and I simply grabbed her up by the T-shirt and said let’s go. She said “no I can’t” and shyly sat down thus never bothering me again. I taught this method to my daughters and no one ever bullied them. Bullies thrive off of weakness.

Very interesting take on it.

the other things we didn't have as kids were dozens of vaccines (injected aluminum), climate engineering (airborne aluminum), a constant barrage of RF/mW (cell phones, wifi, bluetooth devices, and cordless phones) AND violent content available 24/7. why do you think there's so many more people with alzheimer's, autism, and mental illness now. our brains are malfunctioning, and it's not a contagion.

Maybe you weren't on a 24 hour world news schedule going to school in the 70's. School shootings have been happening as long as we've had schools in this country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shootings_in_the_United_States#20th_century

My cousin was being picked on by some douche when he was in high school. Dude was calling him names and pushing him. My cousin pushed him back and told him to fuck off. Both got suspended.

But schools are already gun free zones. Perhaps if there were more gun free zones, there would less shootings?

Followed closely by Iceland, which is well known for its school shootings, right?

The entire country of Iceland is about as big as the Yakima metro area.

It is too small of a sample size to matter.

Aren't there ways to statistically accommodate for differences in size?

Ummm, are you seriously gonna compare School shootings in Iceland to the US?! No other country is even in the same league as the US!

Isn't that the entire point of correcting for population size? It allows for reasonably accurate comparison between two or more things that have large differences in population/whatever

Not necessarily. culture has a bigger factor in such a small population

That kinda depends too, maybe you are right in this situation. But take something like pcp and give it to any population, anywhere, ever and they are going to have correlating rates of craziness.

Yes.

Does it account for "person per square inch in the most populated city" and the like?

Was he comparing school shootings or anti-depressant prescriptions?

not when deal;ing with basically a small town and the gigantic thing that is the USA. We have a state thats half the size of europe.

No, that is not how statistics work.

While small, their 300k people is way more than enough of a sample size that we would see it play out statistically. Saying "we are very different sizes" shows a fundamental misunderstanding of statistics.

Per capita. It can matter immensely or not much at all.

Like really. Whats it about americans on reddit having such issues with understanding "per capita" statistics and how they destroy any "but muh so biiiig" arguments.

Because per capita doesn't account for "person per square inch".
If you have a huge ass country, but a quarter of the population spread around in it, then everyone has way more breathing air, which leads to a completely different people dynamic.

Pretty sure the average city/agro spread is pretty much the same all over the world. Happy to see some numbers tho.

Not if there was a potential connection between anti-depressants and school shootings it's not.

Let's be real, it's to small, and sparse, to have enough targets in the same spot.

Yes actually, guns per person is 12th in the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

So then guns aren’t the problem? Gotcha.

Guns and culture are the problem. The US has, to borrow a right-wing term and throw it back at them, a culture of death.

Bruh

I'm not your bruh you Trumpbot.

This is an interesting convergence though, the Trumpers and the Scientologists

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2017/10/02/scientologist-kirstie-alley-psychiatric-drugs-common-denominator-in-mass-shooters.html

This comment broke the autism meter

Uh huh.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-pol-scientology-trump-hollywood-20170119-story.html

more like a mental issue. Oh look i am this gender, why do you love me for it!!!!! oh like I am this why don't you love me for it. Social Media and mental illness got to love it.

more like a mental issue. Oh look i am this gender, why do you love me for it!!!!! oh like I am this why don't you love me for it. Social Media and mental illness got to love it.

That's not US specific. None of these things that are being raised (narcissistic social media culture, SSRIs, guns, spoiled kids, bad parents) are specific to the US.

You make it sound as if school shootings aren't completely taboo across the vast majority of the U.S. There still has to be a trigger, something that pushes people over the edge to engage in taboo behavior. Much as you may hate the NRA or even the military, those are the two biggest symbols of gun culture around and neither of them pump up school shootings, it really is the opposite, believe it or not.

I watched violent movies and played war with old school realistic looking toy guns and army surplus gear as a kid. I played violent video games as as a young adult. I listened to lots of heavy metal and got plenty drunk and high on legal and illegal substances. l and never took part in the real life counterpart to the stage show fantasies that were presented to me never bit the head off a bat or sacrificed a baby to Satan or shot up a school.

So what's the factor that is the over riding catalyst for destructive behavior? Simply culture? Because there are plenty of violent people all over the world, and how they play out their fantasies varies greatly with culture and access to guns I'm sure, but what is it that sets them off in the first place? Mental illness probably. Whether or not that destructive behavior is ecsaserbated by medicine is what is really crucial to this debate here today.

Again, plenty of people get stabbed or road raged in countries with less guns and plenty of people get taken hostage or suicide bombed in countries with more. Those are symptoms of a bigger problem. Maybe it's culturally specific, or maybe there are connections across cultures, idk. Gun culture in the U.S. isn't the primary reason people act destructively or against taboo. It's a factor in how a broken person plays out their violent urges for sure, but not the primary cause. At least not as much as mental illness is.

I actually mean culture in a broader sense, I'm not making some simplistic association like violent video games = violence. US culture is geared toward conflict, toward aggression, toward confrontation. Look at any of the recent police shootings and you'll find many people who put forth opinions like "he didn't listen to the cop, he deserved to be shot." Especially in the south and rural areas these views are widespread, just a complete lack of proportionality and a sick view of the world.

Damn dude, yeah, sry, it was late and I was conflating some of your contentions with another user and was jumping in the conversation late and randomly and kinda all over the place.

You actually made some pretty good arguments, but u should lay off the trumpbot shit. It comes off like virtue signaling. Anybody who can argue at that level should know that. It's not the kind of thing that changes minds, just alienates and divides.

Damn dude, yeah, sry, it was late and I was conflating some of your contentions with another user and was jumping in the conversation late and randomly and kinda all over the place.

You actually made some pretty good arguments, but u should lay off the trumpbot shit. It comes off like virtue signaling. Anybody who can argue at that level should know that. It's not the kind of thing that changes minds, just alienates and divides.

True. Last time I was in the video game section of Walmart, the first thing I noticed was that about 9/10 of the games were just first person shooters. Walked away shaking my head. They're feeding us violence over here. Movies aren't much better. But I guess any country that is going to constantly be at war would want its people to be desensitized and think killing is fun and exciting...

Maybe, but it's still largely considered to be taboo to shoot up a school. Also, researchers have discovered that there is something to be said for the release of the soon or fantastical ideation through virtual simulation. Once people are desensitized, which they will inevitably be if connected to just about anything society on this day and age, might as well provide an outlet of some sort. I'm pretty sure most people get it outta there system while only a few insist on taking it to the extreme and living out dangerous fantasies.

Maybe, but it's still largely considered to be taboo to shoot up a school. Also, researchers have discovered that there is something to be said for the release of the soon or fantastical ideation through virtual simulation. Once people are desensitized, which they will inevitably be if connected to just about anything society on this day and age, might as well provide an outlet of some sort. I'm pretty sure most people get it outta there system while only a few insist on taking it to the extreme and living out dangerous fantasies.

Those same games are on sale in all the other countries that don't shoot everyone.

Europe bans games all the time for violence and cruelty, as well as having versions made without the same blood and gore. Germany, in particular, has some pretty hardcore regulations about violence in media.

Asian countries have massive first person shooter followings and tournaments, yet they do not gun violence like America. Blaming video games is a scape goat. Multiple studies have proven this.

I was just thinking about it. If i play a game like this, or even more when i watch one of these movies that end like "Many died but once again America won!" i think of them as weird cultural difference.

If even half of the americans watching these accepts this kind of thinking as part of their culture you very well could call this desensitization.

9/10 games aren't first person shooters, and video games don't cause violence.

9/10 games aren't first person shooters, and video games don't cause violence.

Those same movies and video games are in every first world country in the world. Blaming American behavior on video games and movies is just a scape goat. Please stop spreading those lies. There have been many many studies proving that false.

Guns plus culture are part of the problem in the U.S. Mental illness and it's course of treatment are still critical. It's what is triggering the violent episodes that needs to be fixed the most. If u have a significant portion of people in Britain who have a connection to anti-depressants and engage in knifing people or road raging it needs to be taken into account as a potential trigger for destructive behavior.

Well, the majority of the population IS part of a death cult that worships a Jewish lich and prays hard for the end of the world.

I realize this is chicken--> egg scenario but I have always thought it was unnatural the amount of revenge fantasy and murder obsession programming that originates in the US. Whether chicken or egg, the process gets started and then turns viral seeming to devolve further and further to some eventual end. I mean, there are entire channels focusing on and fascinated with murder and it's various results. My entire adult life there have been true crime books, TV and movies abt the subject of serial murders of mostly women (also children). Not pretending it's only in the US and not denying other cultures obsessions w horrible practices. Just that US culture seems to have an unhealthy appetite for murder and revenge. Is this true of countries like Iceland?

I have to doubt these figures. Especially in the US with no gun registration in most states, private sales and estate guns the best anyone can do is an educated guess. Great Grandad could have bought home a weapon from WW1 and the gov't would have no clue that the 4th generation since still keeps it as an heirloom.

Here's an Icelandic source. https://grapevine.is/mag/feature/2017/07/06/90000-guns-but-no-gun-related-crimes/

Sure, but what problems are they having, if any, that are potentially related to anti-depressants is the real question. If the answer is none, than your contention that gun culture is the over riding problem looks correct. If however, there is an increase in some other culturally relevant or specific destructive behavior that could be linked to prescriptions, than anti-depressants use should not be discounted.

I wish I had a ww1 gun like that, would be cool.

Good info. Well, It's probably a combination of different factors. Violence is always present in American culture.

What about anti-depressant prescriptions?

If tracking anti-depressants and it's link to school shootings in America while trying to discover a connection across cultures, I would think it prudent to consider anti-depressants culpability in a variety of other destructive behaviors as well. Something like seeing if there is an increase in Japan of dudes going to the suicide Forrest and an increase in suicide bombings in a place like maybe Pakistan or Iraq and it's potential connection to anti-depressants, if that makes sense? What exactly this vague notion would tell researchers I'm not sure, but it passes my personal kinda makes logical sense off hand sensibilities.

If tracking anti-depressants and it's link to school shootings in America while trying to discover a connection across cultures, I would think it prudent to consider anti-depressants culpability in a variety of other destructive behaviors as well. Something like seeing if there is an increase in Japan of dudes going to the suicide forest or an increase in suicide bombings in a place like maybe Pakistan or Iraq or hostage taking or whatever and then assess it's potential connection to anti-depressants, if that makes sense? What exactly this vague notion would tell researchers I'm not sure, but it passes my personal kinda makes logical sense off hand sensibilities.

If Iceland simply doesn't have guns or a ton but still a ton of anti-depressants, than Iceland should be studied for culturally relevant or specific deviant and/or destructive behavior.

I don’t know if you’re being sarcastic, but I can assure you there has never been a school shooting in Iceland. And people here don’t own guns unless it’s for hunting dear. The police doesn’t even carry guns.

I was being sarcastic but in fact Iceland does have a fair number of guns, they just have very tight control over them.

https://grapevine.is/mag/feature/2017/07/06/90000-guns-but-no-gun-related-crimes/

okay phew! it’s a little hard reading the tone :) so I googled firearms in Iceland and I had no idea there were so many guns here! Was really surprised. But there was talk about letting the Icelandic police carry firearms, number of guns must be the reason for that. In 2011 they had 60 thousand registered guns. That is a huge percentage of the 320.000 people who live here. Jeez.

Yep. I wonder about the suicide stats. Must have been pretty drastic if they made them put a black box on SSRIs.

From what I understand, the biggest suicide risk with SSRIs is giving them to someone who is so depressed that they have no motivation to do anything, even kill themselves, and the SSRIs bring them up enough to allow them to do things again but not stop the suicidal thoughts. So it's not that the SSRIs cause the suicidal thoughts, it's that someone who hasn't been able to leave their bed in 6 months is finally able to leave again and pick up a gun/their suicide method of choice. Could be wrong though, it's been a while since I looked into this.

That’s literally the line spouted in Reddit all over not backed up by any actual fact.

That’s why the warnings say: CAUSE suicidal thoughts.

No because if you want it to work you need to sneak it up on everyone.

That is such an over generalization of mental illness and/or depression as well as school shootings in general. I’m not saying you’re wrong or not painting a fair picture but each situation is very different and it can’t all be blamed on just medication or just guns. There are so many factors that go into why someone would and could get to that level that they could commit a crime like what happened today.

exactly, it’s ridiculous to infer that medication is the tipping point that makes someone decide to pull the trigger. there are so many variables to take into account. their motive, their ideology prior to taking the medication, what medication it is, how long they’ve been on it, i could go on forever

The reason for the suicide warnings is genuinely interesting, if not really in a conspiracy way.

Depression isn't just feeling sad. It's an impressively broad damper on motivation, energy, and outlook. Many people hate living, but can't drum up the willpower to kill themselves.

Well, take just such a person, and give them a pill that boosts stuff like motivation and energy back towards normal. Turns out it takes awhile to get used to a working brain again. This hypothetical person would still have an enormously negative view of existence, but also finally have the motivation to act on it.

If you can get through this dangerous stretch, your brain eventually adapts to having a healthy (chemically compensated back to normal) balance, and you cool off on wanting to die. You only go through the dangerous part because it's working, but the path out of depression is just inherently perilous for a lot of people.

It's actually really similar to why, if your friend has been acting depressed/lethargic and suddenly seems super happy/content, it's actually a major red flag. That's a person that finally committed to dying, instead of stressing about whether to be or not to be, and boy, what a relief that solid decision is.

You are spot on. I went thru a massive depression a few years ago, I literally didn't care about anything and had so little motivation I wouldn't shower, brush my teeth and hair for weeks, it was bad. All I did was lay on the sofa or my bed and txt with a friend of mine who was going thru the exact same thing. We would google methods of suicide trying to find the easiest way with little pain and best chance working. After a year or so I found out I had breast cancer and admitted to my Dr how low I was and was given anti depressants. He also told me I couldn't live alone (considering I was almost out of money and maxed out my credit cards I couldn't afford too any longer). It wasnt until I was done with chemo that he explained he didnt want me living alone because he was worried once the meds started to work I would still be suicidal and I would have the willpower to do it.

Life is good now, cancer free, overwhelming crippling depression is gone, showering daily etc and I'm happy. My friend didnt do as well, she started the antidepressants a year after me and about 4 months in she was doing better, so much so she spent a month cleaning out her house, painting the rooms and all sorts of repairs. A few days later she left me a voice mail telling me now that the house looked good and she wouldn't be embarrassed for people to come in she could finally go. She hung herself immediately after. I kick myself for not figuring out what was going on and making sure she wasnt alone.

So yeah your post is spot on...

That's brutal. I am so, so sorry. Glad your own story turned out so much better though, I'm proud of you for overcoming.

Good doctor. Experienced and dedicated to life.

Oh wow, so sorry to hear that

Showering daily seems so normal unless you have lived without through depression

Even though its been about 3 years it still seems like showering daily is a treat (for lack of a better word)! I'm ok if I skip a day but it scares me if I have to miss 2 days, I worry I'm going to get out of the habit or something. And I dont wash my hair everyday like I did before and its much healthier, which i wouldn't have known if i hadn't been so depressed. I try to find the positive in things no matter how meaningless and little because no matter how shitty something is there is always something good to be found!

God damn thank you for bringing this up. It frustrates me so much when people blame an SSRI or other ADs for suicide. After that black box warning was added suicide rates actually increased because less people started taking SSRIs! Now we know it's important to watch for those warning signs (agitation, excessive energy, restlessness), especially in youth, so we can properly treat people for depression without increasing their risk for killing themselves. Fuck these threads really bother me sometimes.

It frustrates me so much when people blame an SSRI or other ADs for suicide.

That's because there is actual scientific research showing SSRIs increase suicide risk in young people, and that pharmaceutical companies lied about the risk of suicide:

"An analysis of 70 trials of the most common antidepressants - involving more than 18,000 people - found they doubled the risk of suicide and aggressive behaviour in under 18s.

Although a similarly stark link was not seen in adults, the authors said misreporting of trial data could have led to a ‘serious under-estimation of the harms...

After comparing clinical trial information to actual patient reports the scientists found pharmaceutical companies had regularly misclassified deaths and suicidal events in people taking anti-depressants to "favour their products".

Experts said the review's findings were "startling" and said it was "deeply worrying" that clinical trials appear to have been misreported."

Other studies have found similar results:

The evidence supporting the first black box warning came from a meta-analysis that combined spontaneous reports of suicidal thoughts and behaviors from pediatric RCTs of newer antidepressants, mostly SSRIs.2 The risk of suicidal ideation and behavior, or suicidality, was found to be higher for children treated with antidepressants than for those given placebo (odds ratio [OR] = 1.78; 95% confidence interval [CI], 1.14, 2.77). The FDA also presented results of an analysis of prospective data (suicidal ideation or behavior rating-scale item) that showed no effect for emergence (OR: 0.93; 95% CI: 0.75, 1.15) or emergence and/or worsening of suicidal thoughts and behavior in the active-drug group compared with the placebo group (OR = 0.92; 95% CI, 0.76, 1.11)."

I think I phrased what i meant incorrectly. That BBW is absolutely there for a good reason.

I suppose what I meant was that it's not the SSRI that is introducing new thoughts of suicide or something. It's giving people the motivation and energy to follow through with a plan they may have thought about before. As the person I replied to gave a good summary for the reasoning I won't discuss that again. I just mean that the BBW shouldn't stop someone from taking an AD.

Finally somebody said it as it is!!! Thank you!

What a load of bollocks lol.

Ha, I was severely depressed but can never come to terms with taking my own life and making my parents question everything they’ve done raising me. So I went and bought a motorcycle. If I die on it, it’s not suicide, it was just an accident.

I settled for killing myself slowly with my food choices. I'm trying to work to undo that now, but it's really difficult thanks to IBS. Now that I'm trying to eat healthy, but I can't eat onions or garlic or artichokes or gluten, but meat is sort of a safe zone (it's healthy in the right proportions, but I'm worried my proportions aren't healthy).

I think you made the right call with the motorcycle, dude.

That's a person that finally committed to dying, instead of stressing about whether to be or not to be, and boy, what a relief that solid decision is.

It can also be a person that finally committed to living a new life, after getting rid of lots of toxic elements in their life, or, having identified toxic elements, and resolved to get rid of all that shit.

If you can get through this dangerous stretch, your brain eventually adapts to having a healthy (chemically compensated back to normal) balance

Well more like chemically functioning a little better. It isn't normal having those drugs in you. Many people don't feel quite right on those drugs, even if it improves motivation. So that is another factor.

If you get your brain truly balanced, there would be less risk of suicide because your brain is now how you want it to be. The problem with drugs is that one is still imbalanced, but now differently, and though this can obviously have positive outcomes to relieve symptoms of depression, it takes some getting used to and it doesn't get to the root of the problem, which is a fatal Achilles heal.

Interesting. Why is the risk of suicide after starting SSRIs particularly high for people under 18? Wouldn't children and adults both have basically the same increase in motivation?

That's a good question, and I'm not sure there's a well-supported answer for it yet.

My wild-ass guess that should absolutely be taken with salt? We know that one of the last things to keep developing in your brain is your impulse control, which doesn't really finish baking until around 20-24. Suicide is often impulsive, at least in terms of the "boil over" moment - we have statistical case studies of how suicide rates change when people can kill themselves conveniently, instead of needing several minutes to prep (and possibly back down). So for teens, the cocktail of motivation, negative outlook, and incomplete impulse control... that may be more powerful, on the average, than the experience of adults taking the very same SSRIs.

This is what I came to ask. If 90% of Americans were on anti-depressants, then the statistic in the original post would have been meaningless.

11% of Americans are on SSRIs, and 90% of mass shootings are by people on them. Wow.

Could this effect be explained by mass shooters already being batshit insane and therefore prescribed psychoactive medicine that failed to prevent them from shooting up a school?

Not trying to be a dick, just asking.

11% of Americans are on SSRIs, and 90% of mass shootings are by people on them. Wow.

Why is this surprising to you? This means ~11% of the people are actively pursuing a means to deal with their depression and mental issues. It shouldn't be surprising at all that that portion of the population is most likely do something to harm others in their.. confusion, for lack of a more offensive word.

Medications have such an influence on the brain, their normal selves might have not even done such a thing. It diminishes a person's filters. I'm not saying they're not guilty, but for fucks sake, SSRIs are NOT A FUCKING CURE ALL for every fucking thing.

There is no way to know. This is a very strong correlation (im sure it's statistically significant but I don't feel like doing math) but there's no way to determine causation without experimentation

with 7²⁵ chemical reactions happening in the body at any given time, we're not going to determine casuation any time soon.

With controlled experimentation, you could determine the causal nature of any correlation. It's just hard to perform these controlled experiments in the real world.

This experiment might look like "give 50,000 depressed people SSRIs, and 50,000 other depressed people sugar pills, then see who shoots up the most schools". Obviously we're not trying this any time soon, but we could

You do realize that the mechanism you're trying to causually determine is buried under 7²⁵ chemical processes at any given instance. This is between trillions of cells, hormone, and neurotransmitter gradients, protein configurations, enzyme levels, etc etc. There's no possible way with current technology to create a deterministic experiment of all variables relating to drug interaction.

You don't need to simulate every atom in the human body to determine causality with statistical confidence. There may be a metric fuckton of interactions within the body, but (almost) all of them are part of a larger system, which obeys known rules.

For example, you could look at each interaction between insulin and insulin receptors as an "event", which makes the problem seem overwhelming. Or, you could view this entire process in the context of the insulin-glycogen negative feedback system and understand how it works without understanding each fundamental component.

There is a factor of lost information, as looking at the system rather than each interaction is obviously less data. But as long as the system you're generalizing doesn't have many emergent properties, your generalization can be made very accurately.

You don't need to simulate every atom in the human body to determine causality with statistical confidence.

You do if you want predictive models, and if you don't consider everything of value you're going to get junk results.

For example, you could look at each interaction between insulin and insulin receptors as an "event", which makes the problem seem overwhelming. Or, you could view this entire process in the context of the insulin-glycogen negative feedback system and understand how it works without understanding each fundamental component.

Except cascade effects happen during both stimulation and inhibition, the presence of one protein can alter massively how genes are expressed, or if certain neurotransmitters will even fire.

We have actually studied the emergent properties of various organ systems, and factor that information in to our predictive models.

Also, we have had fairly accurate predictive models of immensely complicated systems (biology, ecology, meteorology, etc) for a while now. We can accurately predict hurricane paths, when the butterfly effect was literally named after meteorology because of the emergent properties and general unpredictability due to chaos. Yet the models are very good.

The models are good, you can thank me, but trust me they're not that good yet, you can get a good outline, but there will always be details missing. You do the best you can, and over time as you gather more data, you can make better approximations eliminating variables that don't contribute to the effect you're after. Let's be real here though, we're still some ways away.

All the cloud protein folding programs have had a huge influence in current research. There's still a lot we don't know though, as far as we can tell nothing is more complex than the human brain.

You are exactly right; coincidence is not causality. These are disturbed people and the drugs aren't 100% effective.

Wouldn't you need a convincing argument for why legitimate cases of mental illness had increased so significantly?

Gravy even assuming your numbers are true they dont say anything. All it says is that people have attempted unsuccessful medical interventions. Its like saying 10% of americans have been to the hospital but 90% of americans die in hospitals so hospitals must be causing these people to die.

That's always the sticky problem with statistics.

That's why I was asking a question rather than making a statement - we essentially identified a correlation and then went on to pose the question of if it was in fact causation.

Black box labels warn against suicide, not mass homicide. Suicide and mass homicide are mutually exclusive. People who are suicidal want to kill themselves. They are not homicidal. They are two entirely separate phenomena, and one would folly to argue their correlation. (not trying to argue opinions— this is just plain reason and logic).

Also. Perhaps your focus shouldn’t be on antidepressants. Perhaps the real problem is a permissive culture obsessed with violence and a society that provides ample opportunity to obtain a gun. It would be silly to think that, but for antidepressants, mass murders would not happen.

If they have the thought to do it the Anti-depressents may give them the (chemical) motivation to do so.

That's very interesting. Meh, I know sometimes sick people can't help themselves but I don't think people should take things that mess with their natural system unless It's the only alternative left...

I can explain to you the suicide warning, it's because antidepressants also have a stimulatory effect. The action of the antidepressants regarding the affective side (anti depressant effect) can start to appear by the 4th to 6th week of treatment, while the stimulatory effect (giving you a little push in your energy) can appear by the first week, so if the person has a deep depression, the first weeks of treatment you can give them the energy they lack to commit suicide, before the emotional improvement appear, that's why a person with intense suicide ideations should be hospitalized during the first weeks of treatment, or at least have a strict vigilance from their family.

why are school shoots so frequent in the US compared to other countries,

Cultural Problem = Population's Obsession with Watching News.

Turn that garbage off and stop the glorification of violence....or those who perpetrate it.

We're fucked in the head, we're the country that promotes "democracy and peace", meanwhile we spend trillions bombing brown people and paving over the corpses to boost our GDP.

Probably cause it’s fun. I mean I have never tried it but they always say don’t knock it til you try it.

I also wonder if our school system has anything to do with this many kids shooting up their schools. Maybe it's not the kids. Maybe they're victims of their environment?

That's actually a very interesting thought and one that I haven't seen brought up before.

I only think this way because I dropped out of highschool due to bullying that started in elementary. The system is harsh and competitive, not to mention the entire curriculum is taught one way and I did not benefit from that. I thought I hated learning, just because I could not for the life of me retain anything said. In classes of 30 children, you only ever thrive if you learn the way you are taught. You only ever thrive if you are included in all the other kids' shit, and only if you are decent competition can you actually be on anyone else's level. In my opinion, school is a big fat competition for who can trample who and end up on top. I am in no means stupid. I just did not benefit from that environment and frankly it felt like I was jailed for 8 hours a day of ridicule and self-ridicule for not grasping concepts. I can understand why this would drive kids to violence like this, though I would not act the same way. If your grades are bad, if you don't get along with the teachers or students, you are absolutely fucked. you get no support, no help, and ultimately you are looked down upon.

I agree with you on that, I wasn't a fan of school myself. I wish you luck in the future. Don't let the bastards get you down.

I can't speak for anti-depressents, as i have had no experience with them, but what i can say as first hand experience is that the drugs and meds you can buy off the shelf in the States (or the states i have been to) are a hell of a lot stronger than most stuff we get in Britain that is prescribed by our Dr's.

I have some 'advil' from America, that shit is straight up Ketamine. Knocks you for six and makes you feel very...out of it. To have anything like that here in UK and Europe you would have to undergo major surgery. I know we can get strong painkillers like codine but nothing like the yanks can buy over the counter.

So maybe, the anti-psych meds you guys are giving out like sweets, are actually a lot stronger and more dangerous than the UK/European equivilant.

Many, many countries in Europe have pretty much open gun laws or you just need to 'acquire' (buy through bribery of the local police) a gun license. But the shootings in Europe are...well, we had anders brevik and a couple of nutty muslims.

Advil, as in ibuprofen?

I'm having trouble seeing anything resembling a narcotic effect coming from ibuprofen alone.

Perhaps you took some Advil Cold and Sinus medication which has pseudoephedrine. It can cause drowsiness if you're not used to it. It's still quite less of an effect than codeine.

Other countries actually know they are a problem, though. Take benzodiapines. There is little controversy in the UK medical community that they are a terrible drug that no one should be on. Here in the US they're the greatest thing since sliced bread according to all the published literature. They don't polydrug people into oblivion and it's used as a last resort for extreme cases.

And a gun access problem. Don’t want to start a heated debate but the link it’s crystal clear.

The meds in america aren't tge same as thise in Europe... Similar yea but little things for blood brain tummy brain and such are used. I believe it is a compound issue. America is cheap at all levels and the fda isn't as strict as say Sweden or Norway.

extremely easy access to powerful firearms

Are SSRI’s used at the same rate all over the world?

Lol because thinking like this requires logic and common sense which a lot of conspiracy theorists lack. You have to ask yourself why are mentally ill people in Australia and the UK not going on mass shooting sprees?

They just do acid attacks and bombings.

And you have to ask yourself those 3 terrorists in London not long ago who attacked people with knives. Hundreds of people fled the scene in terror. Now had those 3 terrorists been armed with guns against 100's of people. Rather than 1 death and 12 injured it would've looked like a something that happens in America. There are bad people all over the world. You can't stop every bad person, you can help prevent a lot of deaths though. Something America isn't doing.

America is all about whoreshipping G.O.D.(guns oil and drugs)

A problem with most anti depressants are that they give you a bit of energy and motivation fairly quick, but lifting your mood takes a little while longer.
So people have been sitting around with depressive thoughts of suicide (or shooting up a school), but it always seemed unmanageable and not worth doing anything about those thoughts, but the pills change that before they brighten up your thoughts/mood.

Or that America's fucked up media is guaranteed to make you a star. Hang this man and it will scare others.

That's where the guns come into play. You don't see many school shootings because shootings are hard without guns

IMO most people in other countries wouldnt even think of doing something like that, while in the U.S. it seems like a "common" thing to do at this point.

There's absolutely a cultural factor. To whoever doubts this, watch "Bowling for Columbine."

It's a mental health issue, and schools are woefully understaffed with mental health experts that can spot the signs and address them. This shooter had all of the signs, and instead of trying to help, they kicked him out. So yeah...cultural.

My opinion? Maybe it's more of a cultural problem.

Those other countries have better psychological crisis support systems overall IMO.

America is almost pure capitalism whereas these other places are more socialistic by and large. Bribery and extortion make America run!

My opinion? Psych meds have become almost a culmination of MKULTRA - Which is still probably going on.

easier access to guns is one part of it, but you could counter it by letting all kids carry guns! /s/

In the Uk its a lot more difficult getting guns. I'm not saying it's impossible, and if you really wanted a gun you could probably get one. But all the times I have visited American friends in the USA, they all have guns in the house. In the UK we don't generally have guns we can get hold of easily.

i can't buy guns where I live. not American, and as such, problem is clear, gun control. op has a good point tho

SSRIs aren’t prescribed at anywhere near the levels overseas that they are here.

My opinion? Maybe it's more of a cultural problem.

I share your opinion.

Go away troll.

Go away troll.

If agreeing with you defines me as a troll, then that defines you as . . .

Ah ok, misunderstanding then. All good.

It's the drugs. MANY of these drugs may cause mania as a side effect. Manic episodes lead to the homicidal or suicidal behavior. Food and Drug Administration requires that all antidepressants carry black box warnings, the strictest warnings for prescriptions. In children, teenagers and young adults under 25 may have an increase in suicidal or homicidal thoughts or behavior when taking antidepressants, especially in the first few weeks after starting or when the dose is changed. - Mayo Clinic https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/suicide/symptoms-causes/syc-20378048

Nah mate I'm on 4 different potent ones due to my bipolar and it has only benefited me. These people are treatment resistant and it has nothing to do with the medication.

Why/what four?

Most bipolar patients are on a mood stabilizer and perhaps an antidepressant. You could also get prescribed something to deal with side effects of medication, e.g. beta blockers to stop tremors. Don’t know your case and doctor, but four potent ones isn’t scientifically backed up, especially long term use. The gold standard for bipolar mood stabilization is still lithium, which can lead to toxicity and side effects if not monitored, but is not usually thought of as a potent mind altering med. Something in the atypical antipsychotic class, say Risperdal, can really mess with cognition and negatively influence hormones.

Glad to hear your meds are helping. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it probably.

Not far off tbh mate, vaproic acid, quetiapine, venlafaxine, propranolol, diazepam, methadone, sometimes zopiclone too. I have many issues, I sincerely aren't over exaggerating mate. I don't take lithium because of the negative health implications and the inability to find a vein very often, I'm recovering from a ten year heroin addiction you see. Two years clean. I appreciate you kind words though mate.

Different people react differently.

Try cutting gluten out of your diet. PM me for help. It may seriously benefit you.

Conspiracy theory number million, gluten acts as a neurotoxin. It’s in everything. Toothpaste, chapstick, lunchmeat, soda, spices, just everything.

It's not the gluten trust me.

Not buying the gluten theory. Been off of grains for 9 months and depression did not leave. It’s genetic/inherited in most cases.

You are a fortunate one. Millions of people consume psychotropic medications and most have no suicidal or homicidal ideation or action. But it's fact that these drugs have indeed induced suicidal and homicidal behavior. As a psychiatrist and a cousin, I have seen it all to often...Sudden increases of norepinephrine and serotonin can lead a small susceptible segment of the population to do things completely irrational and sometimes harmful to themselves or others.

I understand where you're coming from. You only have to look at glaxosmithandklein's piece of shit corruption regarding paroxetine and how it killed a lot of young kids who shouldn't have been on the meds any way. But like I said, medication is never the only reason and typically the affected will commit suicide and not hurt others. It's a shit scenario, the mental health side of things, and more bilateral research needs to be done without any influence from pharmaceutical companies.

Whoah wtf are the downvotes for?

Not downvoted anymore but if you want to know why people downvoted you it's because you made your comment as if it was a clear reality while it's only your anecdotal experience, which doesn't say anything at all.

>And also vast research into the ins and outs of the pharmaceuticals surrounding mental diseases, as well as the substantial corruption within the industry and the skewing of statistics and manipulation of results.

It wasn't just a stab in the dark coz it hasn't happened to me. I have a great deal of friends within the community who suffer from schizophrenia to aspergers and everything in between. Whom all take a variety of combinations of medications. Along with community psychiatric nurses and psychiatrists with whom I've discussed these issues for hours with.

>chill your pretentious undertones.

I’m just explaining to you why people downvoted you.

If you didn’t want to know then why ask?

Just chill man, lmao.

Anecdotal evidence is evidence and contributes to an overall 'truth', it's accepted within the medical field and mental health reports so in fact your point is rendered moot.

And it should always be taken as such, this is nothing but anecdotal evidence and should be taken as one.

I’m pointing out this should be taken as such, I guess your comment now turned moot, as nobody said it wasn’t accepted, your comment actually doesn’t add anything here man, oh the irony.

Top lel you really get triggered too easily friend.

Top lel... lmao

Someone's acting soyish. Seriously mate your negativity oozes out of every word. It will drive you into an early grave friend.

Haha chill man I was mocking your way of typing.

Like you discovered 4chan two days ago and wanted to use all the words you learned, it hurts to read man.

You seriously lack a sense of understanding man, be careful with that as it may bite you when you get older.

>being this much of a self righteous arsehole and this much of an living meme

I seriously pitty the poor person you lose your virginity to mate. That is, if you can get them to drink the rohypnol. Seriously mate, if you live life so seriously all the time you're gonna have no time to go fuck yourself and fuck off if you have zero substance to add to a civil conversation.

Haha damn talk about pity.

Sure thing bud.

Mania still doesn’t make a person do anything they didn’t already want to do!

If you compare these instances against the number of people who are on these medicines (staggering, doctors prescribe them at the drop of a hat), you would find some minuscule hundredth or thousand or less of a percent.

Mania still doesn’t make a person do anything they didn’t already want to do! Are you fücking serious? I take it you never met a person who has experienced manic episodes...

The part you bolded is not found on the link you provided. In fact, nothing about homocidal thoughts was on the site.

I've also been unable to locate anything concerning homocidal thoughts when searching for black box warnings for antidepressants. Is there a source you can provide that shows homocidal thoughts or tendencies is included in black box warnings for antidepressants?

Your observations are accurate. Have you noticed the 'suicidal ideation/behavior' warnings in the black box? It took decades of suicides, litigation, and lobbying in order to get that side effect warning added to the label. The outrageous influence of pharma upon the government, politics, news media and medical curriculum is the sole reason 'homicidal ideation/behavior' has yet to be added to the black box warning. People would think twice before putting themselves or their child on psychotropics if the black box warned of homicide and suicide as side effects...Am I wrong?

You're not wrong, just very misleading.

I haven't noticed 'stinky feet' warnings either. That doesn't mean that it's a side effect that hasn't been added because of big pharma lobbyist ...or perhaps it's a conspiracy by Dr. Scholl's to keep the warning off in order to sell more odor-x insoles

Antidepressants lower inhibitions in the first couple of weeks after starting or stopping or changing dosage for the medication.

You are much more likely to commit suicide when you first start antidepressants.

This probably correlates positively with willingness to commit homicide as well.

Okay but suicide and homicide are completely different things. I don’t think assuming a correlation between the two is helpful in any way

Came here to say this. Correlation != causation.

Ding ding ding.

There would be correlation between mental illness and school shootings. There would be a correlation between mental illness and any mass shooting.

The question is, "Is there correlation between medication and terrorist acts"

No. They give mental people drugs to keep them from committing crimes. You take away the drugs you get alot more terrorist acts.

Millions of people take these drugs. I would even say 50% of the population will take these drugs or ones similar at some time in their lives. You can't tie anything you don't like to "big pharma"

That said, Big pharma is a problem that needs regulation, I just don't see how that's related to school shootings.

So then the question is why do so many people need these drugs now? What is the source?

That's a good question. I'd wager that it's linked to some combination of poor diet, drugs/alcohol/caffeine intake, lack of exercise, unnecessary intake of chemicals through plastics and other products that are in contact with the body, and overload of (useless and overstimulating) information, especially while people's brains are developing so dramatically during their youths.

Because being sad is an illness now. Instead of you know.. A regular emotion we all feel at some point.

As long as the requirements to meet 'depressed' are so loose and ridiculous, there will be tonnes of people prescribed these drugs needlessly. I'd say less than 5% of the population ever actually has a chemical balance problem leading to depression.

Don't know why you're being down voted. This is true. Doctors prescribe antidepressants like they're candy. I was diagnosed as a child. Great up. Decided I wanted to try medication again because I felt I might be needing something. Went to a new doctor who didn't seem to care too much. The appointment ended with the doctor concluding that I was sad and prescribed me Zoloft or whatever the fuck.

Okay, tie this in with how many teenagers "think" that they're depressed when really they're either just feeling a bit sad lately, or want to be the depressed kid at school. Go and get prescribed and shit, I don't know.

I truely don't know.

I think it's mainly awareness and therefore more diagnoses. It's like when old people die, it's not because of "old age" anymore, they narrowed it down to cancer, Alzheimers, heart attack, etc. As information regarding mental health spreads and loses some of its stigma, more people are likely to go seek treatment. I mean a hundred years ago, not many people thought depression was an illness, but rather a character trait.

Stress / modern life / lack of real relationships / what's up with sales growth. Advertisement and access and insurance! We always need vaccines, we just have more of them now. More drugs now. Drugs is now the growing industry. Ect

I recently read an open letter sent by a couple of big investors to apple in which they basically tell apple they should do something about addiction on their devices.

If what you say is true, now we throw social media and addictive apps to the mix, I was very surprised with the suicide rate in teenagers that used their phone for large periods of time.

Here's the letter if anyone's interested:

https://thinkdifferentlyaboutkids.com/

My fiance was abused, and has a family history of schizophrenia and bi-polar. Her dad tried to kill her in front of her mother. He never took his medication. My fiance attempted to harm me, which is when I checked her into the hospital. Now she is medicated, and has no more violent tendencies (unless she relapses due to severe stress).

The problem is keeping her on her medication. It's the same with most people with severe mental illnesses. They take their meds, feel normal after a few weeks, and decide "nah! I don't need those!" And then they have an episode not long after they cease their meds.

Most Mental Illnesses are either hereditary, or foster from abuse.

I would say that there’s over medication and under medication. Poorer communities are under medicated, more affluent communities tend to be overmedicated. Also, I would argue that as medicine has progressed and we’ve had better outreach more people have coverage. It’s not that people 100 years ago weren’t sick, it’s that we now have the means to detect sickness and treat it. The same with any disease, cancer is not new but people being treated for cancer has risen, why? Because we’re able to detect it earlier. We can now detect and treat stage “zero” cancers. That was not a reality 20-30 years ago.

Same now with mental illness also. 200 years ago someone with schizophrenia would be said to have “demons”.

Medicalisation. Take a normal and widespread emotion, like being shy and anxious before making a speech, tell people there's something wrong with their brains because if you're not happy and stress-free all the time there must be a problem, and give them pills that might not do anything at all. I remember reading up on how they wanted to market antidepressants in Japan a few decades ago, so they got a big promotion team and started advertising depression as this kind of hip new cool thing amongst teenagers with vague symptoms in magazines and such, and it worked, antidepressant sales started sky-rocketing. That's just one of the things wrong with stuff surrounding Big Pharma and the mental health industry anyway.

Our society is garbage? We don't take care of our kids? Parents don't have enough support? Kids get left behind and handed over to the internet?

You can't tie anything you don't like to "big pharma"

That's where you're wrong friend.

A lot of the drugs cause agitation and aggression.

I mean, that’s actually not really true as very few people with mental illness are actually violent or commit crimes. Sure some do, but it’s a small number.

I meant that by definition you must have a mental problem to kill multiple innocent people.

Like that makes you mental patient. Like show me one sane mass murder. Ever.

Breivik was ruled sane if i dont misremember.

Not ruled sane. Not government decides you're sane, killing random people is by my definition crazy. If you kill random innocent people it makes you crazy.

Like useing heroin makes you a drug user.

The problem is not everyone needs these meds. Doctors and patients need to start with prescribing diet and exercise. They are so quick to just write you a prescription of an anti-depressant

Regardless, the drugs aren't working in these cases.

The drug never works. It simply puts a band-aid on the real problem.

It's only treating the symptom.

Plus, it could be because of the misuse of the medication.

Mental illness makes you border level if you come down off of meds some are like hell and people freak out and one kill themselves or kill others

You're talking out of your ass.

Exactly. It's like saying 100% of school shooters wore shoes and MSM is protecting Nike.

It’s because everyone has guns. Period.

Do you have guns?

I can only speak for myself. I have used anti-depressants before and they can seriously mess with your attitude. I wasn’t sad as often as I was but I gained a crazy temper. I would flip at anything I perceived as a slight. I was a straight up monster and people at work became scared of me. I damn near lost my job several times.

I eventually figured out is was in fact my meds. I then decided to go cold turkey. Bad idea. My mood swung so much I thought there was something even more wrong than just depression. I took them again and tapered off the right way.

Now I am back to my old self. Still a little bit a jerk but not even close to how I was before. It took many months before the people around me weren’t too afraid to joke around with me. I’ll never touch any of that shit again.

So when I hear that anti-depressants are linked to school shootings I believe very much so that the meds played a big part in it.

I can’t say that the meds were the driving force but they certainly don’t help the situation.

Ditto, been in that same place before. Wish I could handle my brain med free, but I’m just not there.

This is why I'll do yoga before I ever take any medication. Ill die before I become a government puppet

I never experienced it personally but I had a friend who tried to kill himself and a family member who went on essentially an insane crime spree both while on zoloft. Numerous other people have told me that Zoloft made them insane and if they stopped taking it it made them hyper-depressed.

These things are known side effects.

I was taking Zoloft. It’s bad shit.

That’s what I take

If you ever have to go off of it never stop taking it suddenly. You might have everything in control but it’s not worth the risk.

Totally! I tried that once, it was not good. Even a slow wean over two months is tough on me. I’ve been on and off of it for over 8 years. Even at a super low dose I’m trapped.

I’m thinking maybe you could be on the wrong stuff. Just a thought though. Don’t get me wrong some people benefit from meds so that’s fine with me. They could possibly transition you if you’re trying to get off Zoloft. Don’t take anything I’m saying seriously. Absolutely talk to a doctor.

Fair point, but how about we get a bit more strict about being able to own guns if you are on psych meds, or if someone in your house is. I think we could all agree on that, no?

No.

I am on the right and I don't get this. If you literally can't handle life that you need to be on anti-depressant that is a huge red flag you shouldn't be entrusted to own a killing machine. Even if you don't believe the drug itself is doing anything. Just to be on those meds you have to be a little messed up. They don't just hand them out because someone had a bad day.

Okay so what drugs are you talking about exactly? What mental disorders do you think should keep someone from owning a firearm? And are you referring to these firearms as killing machines?

Can we start with kids under the age of 25 on SSRIs? Does a 19 year old kid whose mind is still developing really need a gun? Let alone one that has shown mental instability to the point they need to be medicated.

Okay so let's say a 24 year old with an anxiety disorder. Yes that person has the right to own a firearm for sporting purposes and even more importantly personal protection. Does a 19 year old kid need a gun? Yes for many reasons. You have to consider what you are suggesting. You are not really defining what kind of metal problems you are speaking of. I also do not think you are aware if just how these medications are used. Not everyone that takes Paxil is mentally unstable. I personally believe that Form 4473 covers all it needs to in regards to mental health requirements.

You are never going to find the exact combination to be able to take guns out of the hands of those who will commit, and those who won't. If you know taking guns out of hands of a small subset of society will save peoples lives then you do it. It's like the drunk driving laws. Should we not have drunk driving laws because drunk people have the right to be on the road just live everyone else, and not all of them get in accidents or drive dangerously when they drink?

A small subset? You are talking about anyone with anxiety, OCD, depression, eating disorders, PTSD, etc. That is only if you stop at SSRIs. What about other medications not categorized as such, but are still used to treat other kinds of conditions that you might feel are dangerous? Your comparison is ridiculous. Drunk driving laws do not prohibit people from owning vehicles. It just says they cannot operate the vehicle when intoxicated. Carrying a gun and being drunk is illegal too by the way.

As someone who takes anti-depressants, missing a couple of days is sometimes worse than the original depression itself, accidentally taking two is equally chaotic.

Those still don't make me want to go out and massacre people, I can't speak for anyone else with depression, though I'd guess that others would feel the same way.

Same- and for the people I know who take SSRIs as well.

Depression has a ridiculous amount of underlying causes. It's not just low-serotonin. It'd be silly to assume your individual experience applies to everyone who gets diagnosed with depression (a good portion of which likely have something else entirely)

Chicken or egg... exactly my first thought.

That's literally one of the first things addressed in the article:

If it was the condition, you wouldn't see that 90% figure.

Required? Please.

You are completely oblivious to the true nature of medical education.

People bring up guns and SSRI's, but never bring up the fact that the American school system is hell for an adolescent boy anymore. The school system absolutely plays a part in this.

I mean, the school system is not that different to other places in the world.

It's the people and the culture around it, I don't know why the people at the top want to fuck up the US so badly, they've been trying to divide people using the race theme for a while.

Is OP implying there is a causative effect between taking SSRIs and school shootings?

That is just invalid reasoning.

Americans take SSRIs at the highest rate of any country, this may or may not be true, the graph in the article even says getting an accurate number is difficult.

Has there been an increase in school shootings in proportion to increased SSRI prescriptions?

Mental illness rates are fairly constant across the globe.

Between 2010-2012 there were a similar number of mass school attacks in china as in the US. The Chinese attacks caused about half as many deaths but twice as many injuries. Why? Because all those attacks were done by knives or hammers, with the killers usually committing suicide after, same as here, but they tend to do things like burn themselves to death rather than shoot themselves in the head. US attacks caused more deaths because all of them involved firearms, while none of the Chinese attacks did.

The cause is mental illness. SSRIs are more likely to be prescribed to the mentally ill.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_(2010–12)

To me, the mental illness, in the first place, seems likely to be a moderator variable here.

Or because of MK Ultra false flags?

It's because we don't address the actual issue, but instead, drug people up to the point of sedation where we can deal with them minimally.

It's exactly the same mentality of obese people seeking out a "diet pill" to solve their issue instead of making lifestyle changes, because ((god forbid)) they change their lifestyle....

Shhhh — you’ll ruffle the tin foil.

Exactly.

I guess we really need to investigate water. Because hey, 100% of school shooters drink it. And holy shit, I've heard some even BATHE in it.

It's the hubris of the medical system thinking they can hack our brains with pills.

We don't know enough about neurotransmission obviously, and we should stop fucking with it until we know more about the brain. We should also have a better methodology of determining which drug to take via an objective test, not "take this lithium for a couple months to try it out, and if it doesn't work, we'll try something else [̲̅$̲̅(̲̅ ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°̲̅)̲̅$̲̅]". How these pills work is based entirely on feel and maybe some questions/counselling.

If the doctors are getting paid a cut to prescribe drugs, wouldn't it be in their best interest to get the patient to switch through all of the drugs before settling?

Causation Correlation and Coincidence.

All you need for conspiracy is to confuse these three concepts.

Are you trying to say, "All you need for conspiracy theory is to confuse...?"

Because plenty of conspiracies are, and have been, proven.

I take SSRIs to boost my serotonin and I resent this implied correlation. It's obvious that these types of people are way out on the spectrum of mental illness and I would even argue that many more tragic events, like this one, are prevented by getting someone the proper treatment.

I would liken this post heading to the correlation of the murder rate in New York City going up at the same time that the sales of ice cream does. MSM never covers this because of big dairy's cash cow.

In other words, absolute rubbish.

Depressive thoughts, psychotic behavior etc wouldn't be listed as side effects if they didn't parse that out first in their studies. But you are right to say it isn't merely the drugs. It is the fact we give kids shitty drugs instead of what they need to grow and heal.

Gotta keep Hegel happy, right?

Your question is based in the definition of their illness requires a medication. The whole system is fucked from the get go, they quickly and excitedly diagnose patients when they may in reality have a different problem, then prescribe psychotropic medications that are unreliable and dangerous unknown long term effects or effects that may vary, they at least mess with your thoughts. I think the stat is so high cause in the rest of the world the medical industry isn't so quick to prescribe, they take other factors into consideration and prescribe other things than psychotropic drugs

the medication

exactly what i thought

correlation != causation

Mental illness exists in other countries.

Mass school shootings do not.

there a double whammy here, ding! ding! there's the psych profile but there also has to be media collusion... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_crime

Why do these shootings happen routinely (approx 1 school shooting per week on average) in America when people take SSRI's around the world?

What is it about American culture that makes people so sick as to run in to schools and shoot down kids?

Known side effects of SSRI's from the NHS

It's pretty amazing how in America these drugs make you go on shooting rampages but in the UK they cause you to become a pedo? Where exactly are you going with that point?

Fuck you.

Yours sincerely, a Brit.

They'd rather blame it on lifesaving medication than do any real research or cite an peer reviewed studies.

Life saving medications that are given to people in a trial and error fashion.

All drugs are given in a trial and error fashion. Or would you rather we just give you meds and never adjust it or take into account how you're is doing.

Are you under the impression doctors are magic.

Not on the level of anti depressents and I believe big pharma pushes them to treat symptoms instead of curing the base problems.

And what is the base problem causing mental illness? It wouldn't happen to be a neurotransmitter release deficiency treatable by selectively inhibiting reuptake receptors for that specific neurotransmitter in the synaptic cleft, would it?

Diet. Also Don't use big words to try and sound smart.

Oh diet, how obvious! Obviously food is the problem! So what's the solution? Veganism? Keto diet? Omega-3s? Mediterranean diet? Paleo-crossfit-raw-cultured-gluten-free? Is there a specific vitamin or mineral deficiency depressed people have eluded every single blood test ever performed?

What's your evidence? Have you read a study showing that this country whose population is pretty much the same in every way with the other country other than their diet has significantly less depression?

Well maybe that's an impossible scenario in the real world, so do you have a study showing

A: an adequate sample size of people

B: randomly assigned to a control or interventional diet in order to

C: eliminate possible confounding variables, and ensure the only possible difference is solely the diet

D: has statistically significant depression reduction in the interventional diet cohort?

So you find a study, you find dozens of studies in fact.

So what's the mechanism? How does X diet change lead to Y behavioral change?

Can you break it down further to the molecular level, and prove it?

Can you design a chemical that can replicate that effect without actually changing people's diets?

Holy shit you can?

Congrats on your Nobel Prize in Medicine for answering all of these questions, millions of dollars from novel anti-depressant drug sales, and global recognition as the man or woman who cured depression!

I like you. You smoke him!

Jesus Christ, how unbelievably hostile... if I didn’t know better, I’d think 90% of your net worth was tied up in pharma stocks.

Of course not! Can't you tell from my username that it's all in Raytheon, Academi, Breitbart, and Lockheed Martin, Boeing, 21st Century Fox, and Bitcoin?

Bug pharma shill much? How much do they pay you?

-100,000 a year for med school

Doing exactly what big pharma wants.

Agreed, high processed foods contribute to far too many mental and physical issues...

The current consensus is that low serotonin is associated with depression, not necessarily the cause.

There are natural alternatives to said life saving medicine.... I found them...after having terrible experiences with big pharma crap....

Ok, but your anecdotal opinion on medication doesn't mean that it doesn't work well for other people, and much how you individually figured out how to medicate yourself others should be able to do the same with whatever treatment works.

I get the impression that those here who support SSRIs ,have never had to use them....I've been struggling with clinical depression for 35 years...and to this day my experience has been nothing but a guessing game by the Dr's. The numbers that support such substances have been skewed by money and profit....none of you think its odd that since such drugs were developed, depression rates have skyrocketed?.... I'm not saying that some dont need them, I'm saying they could be replaced by a number of methods,including diet,therapy, and natural sources... Finding the psychological cruxx of the issue should be the first stage in treatment, not trying any and every chemical solution first...today's medical professionals, are under rediculous pressure to be correct on the fist try....or face the wrath of a lawsuit prone society. As was mentioned above....culture is were we are going wrong.....all that follows is an effect....

If voodoo and plants are working on your mental illness, you probably don’t have it.

And you're degree is in???

If you are referring to SSRI's as "lifesaving medication" then you are wildly misinformed/ignorant.

Actually, I would be dead if I didn’t take mine. I would’ve killed myself because of severe OCD.

So you can go fuck yoursef you ignorant piece of shit.

Do you think the drugs gave you the ability to play out alternate universes inside of your head or have you always had that ability, no wonder your depressed.

I don't know enough about foreign cultures to pick out what's specifically American about it, but I figure it's a combination of many things wrong with society:

• Poor physical health
• Lack of effective and affordable healthcare
• Ineffective schools
• Social media and the obsession with celebrities and fame
• Society, the economy, and education failing to adapt to each other - pushing college as the only way to get a job and be successful
• The American Dream juxtaposed against reality
• The stigma that if you acknowledge a mental health problem you're either crazy or weak, and that mental health doesn't require regular maintenance like bodily health does.
  

It's obviously more nuanced that I made it out to be, but no one would read a novel and I didn't want to type one. All the things I listed combine to create an environment that some people and families simply aren't equipped to deal with.

Both parents working 40+ hours a week while staying indebted, and constantly stressed probs contributes as well.

I'm 44, and this is one of the biggest changes in society that I see. Parents start sending their kid to daycare when it's 3 months old and it never ends.

Then when the parents finally do see the kid at the end of the day, they're exhausted from working 8+ hours and don't have the energy to meaningfully engage with their children. Parents aren't "raising" their children, they're just being in the same general vicinity as the kid while it grows up.

Plus for a long time schools shamed parents who were engaged calling them "helicopter parents".

This lack of parental involvement had led to children being exposed to damaging things. Pre teens are watching hard core pornography on a regular basis. They're going to message boards where people joke about shooting up schools. They're watching tv shows that romanticize suicide.

It's a sad state of affairs.

Pre teens are watching hard core pornography on a regular basis.

Happening at younger ages too. Starts with YouTube on the tablet while they're little, because parents just want a break to get some chores done. Then the kid grows up with free reign on the phone/tablet.

Finally, here's the more level-headed comment in the thread. Sure there may be other factors, but what you're pointing out is definitely being overlooked by the circle jerk of "fake news" and anti "Big Pharma".

True, but don't forget all of the guns. Pretty obvious part of the equation glanced over.

Add guns to all the bad sit you mentioned and you get school shootings, simple really.

How about the lack of gun control compared to other states?

Not shown on this list, but clearly way more important than all the others;

• Excessive access to guns

our schools are effective, but only in their purpose of indoctrination

It's easier to do practically nothing and leave students ignorant and unprepared, rather than brainwash everyone.

Wow, you guys got organized quick on this one. Got those counter-arguments ready in a matter of hours.

When you kill one person, everybody becomes better at killing. It's a "trend" that has caught on pretty much.

Everywhere has stabbings.

Your comparisons are dumb (minus acid one) ”why does America have so much more airplane hijackings than the UK?”

And while you have fallen for the Fox News narrative that all the criminality you mention in London, one city in the whole of the UK, the massive difference here is we haven’t had 8 nail bombs, or 8 acid attacks or 8 truck attacks in the first 6 weeks of 2018 unlike America’s 8 school shootings.

Furthermore, I would much rather be in fairly close proximity to a madman with a knife than a madman with a gun. See the Vegas shooting for the reason why.

When the shooting isn't a cointel operation, SSRIs and all the rest of the psyche drugs certainly play a strong role never reported by the MSM/fake news.

All shooters have been exposed to dihydrogen monoxide as well. It has many negative effects. As a matter of fact 100% of people who have ever died have been exposed to it.

You can link to at most 35 cases? There are over 70 per year, so that is kinda weak statistics.

There would need to be a MUCH bigger ratio to suggest causation. The first article says 90% but provides no math to support that at all.

Of course depressed kids shoot up schools more than non-depressed kids.

https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/56b381f5dd0895c4558b46ad-960-946.png

That doesn't link to school shootings, how do you know it isn't corn consumption

Does that include high-fructose corn syrup consumption?

Not clear on that.

Also, why doesn't iceland have more shootings? Your graph should be close to the same, not just the top.

TIL Iceland has a population of 350,000 people. Literally the size of a small town in red-state Ohio.

Wow. Just learned Ohio has 11.2 million people. Ohio has 35 Ohioans for every Icelander. Iceland has 1/35th the population of Ohio..

Having trouble finding any info on shootings per % of the pop. I am not sure you are wrong, there just isn't enough data to validate.

So obviously if the two are related, Iceland is number 2 in mass shootings, followed by Australia, Canada, Denmark, Sweden, and Portugal, right?

TIL Iceland has a population of 350,000 people. Literally the size of a small town in red-state Ohio.

So there should be a proportionate amount of shootings?

Obviously for school shooting you need things to shoot with as well.

The article is from 2012

Perhaps OP should use more relevant sources.

Perhaps no one has looked into it further and OP is trying to bring attention to it and start a discussion, then maybe someone will look into it.

The false number in the title makes me a little irate at the whole thing. It reeks of bad science and conjecture.

This. My guess is that there are X cases where the use or non-use of SSRIs is discussed, and in 90% of those the shooter was on SSRIs. But that's likely not a representative sample of the SSRI use of school shooters because SSRI use would likely not be discussed for the vast majority of cases, especially if there was no SSRI use. That 90% numbers smells fishy.

A large portion of the celebrity suicides we see are by those on benzodiazepines. Big pharma gets paid regardless of what happens to those who trust their doctors to treat them properly.

I use SSRI's and it has made my life a lot better the pills don't make you insane and want to shoot up schools.

I don't know why you're being downvoted. All drugs affect people uniquely.

Yes and SSRIs dull down reality. That's why they work for people with anxiety as well as depression. If you already had violent tendencies and now your reality feels more like a video game than it did before, you might be more likely shoot a school up. If you don't have violent tendencies it's not going to give them to you, but if you do it can make the situation worse.

While that may generally be the case, you never know how someone will react to each individual medication, not to mention if there are other meds in the mix. All I'm saying is that how one person experiences a medication can be vastly different from the next.

That’s absolutely not at all, not even remotely, what SSRIs do, you absolute unit. They initiate production of serotonin lack of which has been said to induce depressive state. They bring serotonin levels from low, to normal, that’s it.

Before you throw out insults maybe do a little research. About 10-20% of people who use SSRIs experience what is called emotional "flattening", and something I personally experienced. It also affects everyone differently and isn't fully understood by the psych community, which is why people will try different drugs until they find one that's right for them. It's not as simple as how you describe it, and in fact it is insulting to people who have struggled with this. It doesn't simply "raise serotonin" levels. If you seriously don't know this, then do some research or don't open your mouth next time you are making yourself look stupid.

Correlation does not imply causation

The primary cause would definitely be the underlying mental illness.

Antidepressants certainly would be a factor in helping though, as they lower inhibitions in the first weeks of getting on or off or changing dosage.

Over-prescribing is certainly an issue, but unless we can prove that happened in this case, then we need to treat it as a separate issue.

Can't solve problems if you don't compartmentalize, and break them down into solvable chunks, and attack them one at a time. If you don't, then the problems become too big and the issues become too muddy, and nothing is ever done to fix them.

Doctors aren't awarded by big pharma for over prescribing medications. Working in the healthcare field, that is not true. There is a culture in medicine that when a patient comes in with a problem, we give them a med and fix them. That practice is the problem, but there is definitely a change in trend where we are only starting to give meds if there are absolutely needed. The bigger problem is that the US has a broken system in place to care of the mentally ill. We don't know how the meds work and they work differently for every person and it take years for the right combination of meds to be found. The psych system now serves more as a form of containment than a form of treatment. This and the stigma against the mentally ill can contribute to under treatment and worst case scenarios like school shootings. With antidepressants (like SSRI's), in the first few weeks patients have an increase in motivation before they see relief from their depression symptom. This often lead to suicide attempts when these meds are first given. Maybe in certain cases, the person receiving the SSRI was already thinking about hurting others, and the drug gave them the motivation to actually do it. That's the only correlation I can see with your statement.

Doctors aren't awarded by big pharma for over prescribing medications.

See: The Opioid Crisis

Where doctors were rewarded for overprescribing and prescribing where not applicable.

Do they add a bonus to a doctor's pay for selling x amount of opioids. I don't see a reward here. There is a crisis yes, but are doctors being rewarded for it, no way. Like I said previously, over treatment of issues is the problem, and the recent trend of medicine is only intervening when necessary.

Except that Doctors get rewarded by big pharma to over prescribe and do so all the time, even when unnecessary

Not evidence that it raises chances of school shootings.

Research shows that all too often, Americans are taking medications that may not work or may be inappropriate for their mental health problems.

Again, doesn't correlate to anything related to causing people to commit school shootings.

Updated: Psychotropic medications are still being prescribed in large numbers to patients without a clinically diagnosed psychiatric disorder, new research suggests.

Lastly, does not suggest that medication causes mass shootings.

FYI there actually is an association with benzos and homicides: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25183003

Also-

"Acts of violence towards others are a genuine and serious adverse drug event associated with a relatively small group of drugs."

Let's look at it rationally.

To be on these medications you would need to be diagnosed as suffering a mental illness. That doesnt guarantee you have a mental illness, certainly doctors have been known to misdiagnose, but it's certainly likely the person is in some sort of mental distress.

Now, can we say for certain that these drugs will have a positive effect? No of course not, the manufacturers as well as testing agencies and patients will all tell you they affect each person differently. You may benefit or not, and you may have side effects, this is the case with all drugs but especially psychiatric drugs.

So why are there such a high percentage of school shooters on these drugs? Could the drugs themselves be contributing, and could there be a cover up by big pharma?

If the question is whether its possible that large pharmaceutical companies would consider a cover up against the public interest, I think we would all agree it's a possibility. However I don't think that it is the case here.

Wouldn't it be likely that those who shoot up schools are mental ill in some capacity, and that if it had been diagnosed prior to the shooting they would have been prescribed some sort of psychoactive drug?

Also, these drugs are used all over the world but these shootings seem to only happen regularly in America, where there is ready access to firearms.

Honestly, I think the pressures we put on people are more likely to contribute to these incidents than drugs developed to help people with anxieties...etc.

But that's just me, I don't trust pharmaceutical companies and they'll put money over ethics every time, I just dont think this one is on them.

I've had multiple people tell me that all anti-depressants do to them is essentially just lift a heavy sense of 'guilt' and make them think less (and thus less negatively about their actions and potential reactions).

One even said that their empathy for other people got turned off and it made them dicks because it warped their sense of humor.

FYI there actually is an association with benzos and homicides: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25183003/

So it's misleading to suggest acts of violence towards others isn't considered an adverse drug event--

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0015337

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying drugs do not play a role or have no relation to these events. I just dislike when people make these bold claims, especially since this was posted shortly after the shooting. I'm no expert by any means, but if benzos caused school shootings there would be many more.
Thank you for the well sourced comment btw

No problem. Here's another study:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/06/150601082529.htm

45% higher rate of homicides than controls.

if benzos caused school shootings there would be many more.

Benzos cause increase rates of homicide. So it is possible that a school shooting was in effect caused by use of benzos.

Ultimately it's an area that needs more study if we are going to be able to say anything definitive about it.

100% of serial killers breathe air.

If SSRIs/SNRIs posed such a threat then they wouldn't be disdispruted granted they don't work for everyone but it assists in many people's struggle with mental health.

"Hell" is a severe exaggeration, especially if they consult with a doctor and reduce intake over time to ween off it.

I mean every Western Country uses those drugs. You don't see this simple connection? Every Western Country is pumped up with drugs only one has so many massacres. Keep looking for something that is different in the US and you might get closer to the actual answer.

Interesting idea but what are the odds?

You could make some educated guesses for this if you start checking if US spouses ( you could controll by race ) are more violent with their spouses. If those voices result in massive disproportional cases of massarces they should do something comparable in domestic disputes, right? Obviously should be controlled for gun use.

Wow it's like these school shooters are crazy as shit and the moment they walk into a doctor's office the doctor goes "wow this dude needs meds asap." If you think these dudes were normal before they got prescribed meds I have a bridge I could sell you

They can already be crazy and the drug can be helping them to take that leap into mass murderer. They aren't mutually exclusive.

Adderall is a psych med and I was wrongly diagnosed with ADHD and prescribed to a multitude of different medications which in turn made me hear voices and want to harm myself as well as others. Its an amphetamine which is comparable to meth as it was frying my brain It got to the point where I brought a hatchet to school because I wasn’t eating and was delusional. I was prescribed because I wasn’t doing well in school due to neglect as a child which wasn’t properly addressed until later. My doses were upped every six months for no apparent reason. Maybe the doctor prescribing people medicine the moment they walk into the office is the main problem here as it leads to overmedicating. I’ve been off meds for 8 years and am miraculously no longer “crazy as shit”. I only felt this way when I was on these meds. Not every case is the same though this is just a real life example.

What point are you trying to make?

None, he just wants to share lol

This drugs are not to be taken lightly would be my guess

Humans should have a license to be able to breed to stop making neglected/abused children w ho develop major psych problems, obviously.

That the drugs made him crazy as shit. Read the comment he’s replying to.

Just spitballing, that would mean the US still had way more batshit crazy people, why is that? Diet?

Diet probably has an affect. I would say our media culture is a big part of it

We are a pretty shallow, greed driven society that's too obsessed with our self image

Yup, and the media and entertainers will NEVER accept they were in the wrong for glorifying self image to the point people start going batshit crazy and killing others.

I know it's not just that simple, but I strongly believe the general culture in the US is very narcissistic, there are people like that all over the world and in every country, but the US really glorify all of those self-image obsessed people and a lot of more people just eat whatever the media throws at them.

I remember while growing up, teachers always talked to us about how important is to check sources and that even the big corporations lie to us so we should always stay in check and read about both sides so we could form an honest opinion by ourselves.

I don't know what they teach to kids in the US but I certainly see a lot of articles just telling people what their opinion needs to be instead of telling them how to form a self-opinion.

I really hope they prepare kids for this in school.

We are a society addicted to outrage

Or it means that our crazy people have more access to guns.

I'm not talking about the shootings at all, the link above says that we are the most medicated nation by a landslide. Regardless of guns that should be a big problem that we are also paying attention to. The root of the problem, not the tool of the problem.

so true. i don’t even think i believe in adhd i just wanted to have vyvanse in case i had to make myself do hella homework back in junior year of hs and i walked up into that office and did the tests exactly the way someone who “has ADHD” would answer it and they’ve been like drug pushers ever since. got a prescription on my first apt and was told that behavioral treatment doesn’t work and that i should take it everyday and that it has no long term side effects (total bullshit) and it was WAY to easy. in fact it was harder for me to go down in dosage than up. i don’t take them anymore tho cuz fuck big pharma and fake mental illnesses created to shove people into boxes with labels instead of letting us reflect on how society caused our unfavorable behavior. like seriously they give young kids basically speed bc they have a short attention span? and nobody goes wait what the fuck?? especially when the medicine (when it’s not making u stay up for days straight or hallucinate smoke from exhaustion and briefly feel like nothing is real) makes anyone into an obedient slave to the system who is actually excited to do excessive paperwork for no reason

How can they report them when the pharma companies are their biggest source of ad revenue?

The mental illness ITSELF is just as likely to be a cause. Some people rely on those meds so they don't DIE. I suggest you take an entry level course in statistics.

The shilling by use of upvotes/downvotes is crazy in this sub. But maybe it isn't shilling and it's just that a large portion of reddit users take these drugs and "feel" great on them (they are designed to make you feel great, and it has no bearing on the changes to the actions you perform under them).

Reminds me of these posts that pop up all the time.

I can't believe you're being downvoted. I went to my doctor and told her I thought I was anemic because of all the symptoms I was having -- she said "I don't think you're anemic, you should try an anti-depressant." I was furious and said "JUST DO THE BLOODWORK." The bloodwork came back and sure enough I was anemic. I was absolutely disgusted with this doctor.

Imagine how many patients just go along with her advice and wind up on needless anti-depressants when they have a normal deficiency that can be cause with over the counter vitamins! Unbelievable. I would bet any patient that has a Vitamin D deficiency -- which can cause depression -- goes through the same thing.

BRRRR. Wrong. If so, it wouldn't be 90% as non-medicated people who suffer from the same illness would be committing the same crimes at the same rate.

Unless you are suggesting that the american health-care system is so good that everybody with whatever the fuck mental illness you are referring to are treated with with these meds that these people are in your words relying on so that "they don't DIE". In that case, you would just be a fucking idiot.

Your reading comprehension level is very poor.

The mental illness ITSELF is just as likely to be a cause. Some people rely on those meds so they don't DIE. I suggest you take an entry level course in statistics.

If so, it **(it being the amount of shooters on SSRI's) wouldn't be 90% as non-medicated people who suffer from the same illness would be committing the same crimes at the same rate.

You claim my reading comprehension level is very poor yet you are failing to comprehend my point.

And just FYI, you’re the fucking idiot. Stop talking about what you know nothing about, you vile piece of shit.

“There have been 7 school shootings since 1975 in Canada... there have been 142 since 2013 in the US. Canadians have mental illness, bullying, etc but we also have gun control. Guns are the problem. Period.”

You don't even understand the point I made and you try to attack my reading and comprehension skills. Sounds reasonable.

This is so stupid. Thats like saying 90% of people taking antibiotics have an infection therefor the antibiotics caused the infection.

No, its like saying people are taking antibiotics to treat a viral infection, which people do/is not effective for that scenario.

I’m talking about correlation not equaling causation do to a confounding variable. The antibiotic to treat a virus thing is just misinformation.

I guarantee that if you looked closer that percentage would quickly go to 100%.

I’ve argued for years now that anyone taking psych meds or strong depression meds should absolutely be restricted from purchasing all forms of firearms.

There’s a medical database used in healthcare that immediately tells insurance companies if you have a pre-existing condition based on what prescriptions you’ve had filled.

Why can’t this same database be used to flag people who are on psych or severe depression meds when they go to purchase firearms?

You make the most sense of all. Problem is, some of the younger shooters are just using their parent's guns. Also, number of deaths are also correlated with prior domestic abuse. So, in addition to the mentally ill, the police should be flagging domestic calls and removing firearms from those premises as well. I don't care if hunters are carrying uzis, but if that hunter is also beating his wife, he shouldn't have a gun.

Another illustration that they're allowed to kill us for money. Like with cigarettes. Or cell phones. Or global warming.

Mental illness and the meds that go with them are being taken all around the world. Why are shooting like this only happening in one country??

wow that's really interesting thanks.

One possible cultural reason, in addition to lots of other reasons, is that US pop-culture gives out a lot of really nihilistic messages wrapped in cynicism, a sort of "life is meaningless" attitude. Young guys without an aim or a purpose can become pretty dangerous pretty quickly.

Of course you can find nihilism in other countries, but whenever I watch popular TV shows in the US they seem to almost always feature super cynical characters that have the attitude that life is hardly worth living or caring about. House. Rick and Morty. Heck, the characters of Big Bang Theory seem like they always hate each other even though they're supposedly friends? I'm not saying TV shows make people murderous haha, but that maybe people that grow up in the US are much more exposed to the idea that being nihilistic and uncaring is the cool and intelligent way if living life. And that mentally ill people might pick up on that more strongly and act on it.

There's obviously a lot more to the cultural influences than just that, but I don't remember ever seeing so much "life is meaningless" attitude in the cultures of other countries that I've been to.

Yeah or it’s just because we’re stupid with our gun laws.

Yeah, and there's a step between having a gun and using it on kids in a school. Most school shooters have been suicidal and ended themselves before being caught, but there's a question of why they would shoot up a school rather then just shoot themselves and leave everyone else out of it. People commit suicide all over the world, so why is it that some in the US commit school shootings first before ending it, rather than single murder-suicides or just an individual suicide. That's something cultural that doesn't get addressed by just gun laws or lack thereof. Some kind of combination of 'given up on life,' 'seeking attention/notoriety,' 'angry at the world/peers/whatever.' The notoriety thing in particular seems to be a big part of it. Addressing the cultural/psychological aspect will only help reduce violence, in addition to any gun reform that people want to pass.

I mean sure nothing you said is wrong but easy access to guns plays a big part of it.

Yeah, I didn't say otherwise. I was just trying to think about why this type of crime and not just suicide, when most of the shooters have been suicidal. Plenty of people commit suicide with a gun without shooting anyone else.

As far as school shootings go, this one actually seems pretty unusual because the shooter didn't kill himself or get into a gunfight with police.

This is mostly speculation, but could it be that it's not as simple as "drug = more likely to shoot"?

Could it be that our VERY WAY OF LIFE, disconnected from spirit in the pursuit of empty profit in service of our financial overlords, batters human beings into states of deep depression and bitterness, at which point they are taken to "professionals" and diagnosed with "medical conditions" and drugged up just enough to maintain productivity and the status quo? And this is the type of person that could be driven to shoot?

/rant

Pretty much. And for the people in this thread making it seem like guns are the problem (because this discussion hasn't been had 1000's of times) wouldn't the explanation that American culture is becoming increasingly flawed and the kids committing these atrocities have been exposed to some of the worst parts of our culture and society make more sense?Unfortunately then we all have to acknowledge that the way our education system is set up, as well as the way we raise our children, is the problem and the shootings are the symptom, and most people are incapable of admitting they aren't perfect. /rant (that I hope made some sense)

This is the same reason so many people are on anti-depressants and anti-anxiety meds. Our society isn't compatible with the psychological needs of your average person, so we try to 'fix' the person by drugging them until their numb enough to get by rather than addressing the fucked culture that got them to that state. People aren't meant to sit in cubicles all day. They aren't meant to get by without a tribe of sorts or sense of importance in their community. Everything is so materialistic and individualistic, that many people aren't getting their basic needs met.

It's basically like giving everyone in a room sealed with a running car headache medication rather than just shutting the damn car off. You're hiding the symptoms, but everyones still slowly dying.

Really well put dude

Our society isn't compatible with the psychological needs of your average person

“The real hopeless victims of mental illness are to be found among those who appear to be most normal. Many of them are normal because they are so well adjusted to our mode of existence, because their human voice has been silenced so early in their lives, that they do not even struggle or suffer or develop symptoms as the neurotic does. They are normal not in what may be called the absolute sense of the word; they are normal only in relation to a profoundly abnormal society. Their perfect adjustment to that abnormal society is a measure of their mental sickness. These millions of abnormally normal people, living without fuss in a society to which, if they were fully human beings, they ought not to be adjusted.”

― Aldous Huxley, Brave New World Revisited

I should read that book. Is revisited different from Brave New World (not revisited)?

"Brave New World Revisited (Harper & Brothers, US, 1958; Chatto & Windus, UK, 1959),[31] written by Huxley almost thirty years after Brave New World, is a non-fiction work in which Huxley considered whether the world had moved toward or away from his vision of the future from the 1930s. He believed when he wrote the original novel that it was a reasonable guess as to where the world might go in the future. In Brave New World Revisited, he concluded that the world was becoming like Brave New World much faster than he originally thought."

(Wikipedia)

Read both if you can.

we might be soulmates

we might be soulmates

You couldn't be more accurate. Add to that most of the population now lives in cities like rats in a cage and amongst strangers. There's no sense of community now, no "tribe" to be a part of.

Sadly, looking at the actual stats. It seems as though it is that fucking simple, and just that nobody wants to face the truth.

I really doubt this person was employed.

Yup. The root causes of violence are always the same; disenfranchisement, isolation, lack of social mobility or economic access, and a sense of hopelessness. Very few people resort to violence without feeling like it's a last resort.

How come there isn't anything about the school shooting on the front page of Reddit?

And school shootings are very useful for the disarmament agenda. Can't have them stop.

How sure are we it’s only 90%?

Millions of people take psych meds every day without shooting up large gatherings of people.

10% of the population, the question is ... is there a combo of drugs that when certain people take, makes them flip

Did you intentionally echo the number 1 defense that the pro-gun types go to?

Not all school shooters are on medication but ALL use guns.

this is retarded. ive taken almost every ssri there is. SSRIs definitely aren’t a great solution to depression and anxiety and are pretty shitty “medication” (take forever to work, awful side effects, frustration of jumping from one to another if one doesn’t work etc) but they don’t cause mass shooting rofl. someone that fucked up is going to commit the action regardless if they’re taking ssris or not. then again what else could i expect from this ridiculous sub

It affects everybody differently. As someone who's also been on SSRIs I can assuredly say that it altered my behavior. Let's take someone who already has violent tendencies, give them a mind altering drug that can make you a bit numb to reality, and a gun? Seems like a great idea...

so what’s your end game? ban SSRIs? as much as i don’t like SSRIs conversely many people have benefitted from them, i could also argue that SSRIs/psych medication in general have stopped or deterred things like this from happening due to their ability to alter your mindset; as you said they affect everyone differently, especially with people suffering from an illness like schizophrenia who are more predisposed to violent tendencies and need medication just to get through the day. i consent that people taking psych medication should not be allowed to buy a gun, that is a serious flaw. but even if that were changed the outcome is still inevitable in a psyche like this person. if you want something bad enough you’ll find a way to get it legally or illegally and if you still can’t get it you’ll find other means

serial killers don’t become serial killers because medication turned them into one they become serial killers because that’s who they are deep down. obviously SSRIs change you, that’s the whole point. it’s a valid point to make that someone’s violent tendencies can be exacerbated by taking SSRIs but it’s also valid to say the opposite since they affect everyone differently. it’s beyond presumptuous to infer that medication was the tipping point that made this person decide to do something like this. as outsiders we can only speculate. we don’t know this person’s personality, what his motives were, what he was being treated for, how long he was taking x/y medication, what they were taking it for, there are so many variables you have to consider. it’s just a blanket statement to blame it on meds

Let the depressed fucks deal with it themselves. Exercise, healthy diet, sleep. not drugs

so what’s your end game? ban SSRIs?

Americans seem either want shit banned or completely unregulated. SSRIs like pretty much any medication gets over prescribed or misused. You don't need to ban something if it's becoming a problem, you just need to actually address the problem. Which no one ever does.

Ok, but other things also have mind altering effects that we are exposed to throughout our lives.

If we have already decided that his mental illness makes him prone to school shootings who is to say that those wouldn't have also caused him to do it?

At that point you can't really blame the drug because you are suggesting its a latent psychological issue.

Some people are more pre-disposed to getting drunk than others, it's proven to be genetic. Does that mean we don't create laws to keep drunk people from driving cause it wouldn't be fair to blame the alcohol?

If you're suggesting people who are on psychiatric drugs shouldn't have access to guns then I am agreeing with you, otherwise I'm not sure what your metaphor is intending.

I am sorry I misunderstood you.

This guy gets it..

It isn't that they cause it. It enables you to do it. If you don't feel emotions, it is much easier to do if you are not. That is my experience with them. There is a reason they cause suicides cause they make you not give a fuck

you have a serious bias, not experience.

you say they don't work, and doctors have to try new combos

how can you know that the wrong combo didn't flip this kid?

bias? how do i have a bias when i admit their deficiencies while also acknowledging that they help others? and when did i say they didn’t work? i already said that many people have benefitted from them so they obviously work for certain people, they just didn’t work out for me, and you’ll find a good amount of people who have personally experienced psychiatric medication would attest that the current model of combatting depression and other mental illnesses with the medications we have now isn’t ideal

What are you on now?

annihilating your retarded post

Anyone find it weird that in the emo looking girl being interviewed in this second video here says she saw 2 shooters run by? Also sh says the school had been doing school shooter drills recently, is this common nowadays?

correlation is not causation OP.

That title is hella misleading

• Psych Meds Linked to 90% of School Shootings.

• Psych Meds Linked to 90% of School Shootings for which data of SSRI use is available.

Basically, this is OP's argument

Say there are 1,000 school shootings. You have data for 20 of them. In all 20, the shooter used SSRIs. Does this mean

• 100% of school shooters used SSRIs.

• Fuck if we know what % of school shooters use SSRIs because the data pool is incomplete.

Hint: The answer is the second one.

Exactly this. Misleading and unreliable.

I think there is a correlation / causation issue with your findings. They are talking Zoloft & other SSRIs because people around them can clearly see they are troubled and are trying to help them. The fact that 90% of them have medication prescribed to them is a really, really good thing. It means that people around them, or even themselves, recognized psychiatric problem, were actively seeking help, and were actively taking medication (many cases were people who had stopped taken them).

Frankly I’m surprised that 90% of them were pre-identified with issues. Some medications can cause you to have feelings of disassociation, feeling like your consciousness is an observer to reality, instead of your consciousness being the agent of your reality. That feeling a little weird and can cause people to stop taking their meds, which is a bad thing.

The main issue here, as I see it, is if you are a parent, you would know if your kid was having these issues. You’d be the one encouraging them / checking to make sure they took their medication. If you have a kid like this, the second you feel like they might have issues, STOP getting them interested in guns. If you have guns keep them locked up, in a safe bolted to the floor, and out of site of the kid with issues. Don’t tell your troubled kid how to get your guns “in case of an emergency”. Don’t tolerate them with knives. Kick them out of the house or into intensive counseling if they persist.

When you make a kid, it sucks if they have issues, but FFS, you made them, you brought them into the world, they are your responsibility. It is a lot more work than you would have wanted, but you have to be diligent.

Correlation is not causation tho, school shootings and use of psych meds are probably both very highly correlated with depression and psychiatric illness.

Hmmmm... I’m on an SSRI and have never shot up a school. Instead I’ve become myself, evened our, and not killed myself. Interesting....

First off, thanks for down voting me for my opinion. Second, I’ve come down from SSRIs and all it made me want to do is kill my self not others. I’m worried people will see this and be afraid to seek help or take medication to even themselves out. I’m not a fan of big pharma, let’s get that out of the way right now. What I’m saying is my meds makes me able to be me. And many others are in the same boat. And don’t get me started on everyone who needs them, but are afraid to take them because of ridiculous theories like this. I can assure you, the shooters did not commit these horrific crimes because of being ON SSRIs, but for most likely not being on anything .

come off of them quickly. Maybe start an ADHD medicine at the same time. That does the trick.

not yet...

Yes because if you didn't take SSRI's and healed your endocrine system with a healthy diet/lifestyle I'm sure you would have 100% killed yourself.

Did you also know that every house that's ever had a fire had a sink in it? Who knows, maybe sinks cause fires. SMH.

I think you're being glib there Matt. Independent of anything else, there is evidence that some antidepressants raise the risk of suicide and aggressive behaviour in under 18s, that is to say - a higher risk than would be present in the same individual otherwise.

Of course this is not to say 'school shootings are happening because of X' but I think it's glib to dismiss this factor as a nonsense correlation.

You take a drug every day.

This drug changes the way your mind works, only slightly

Should we not be more interested in what's going on?

Of course. Fortunately that's why we've had clinial trials, longitudinal studies, etc. Million of people actually feel better on this medication- there's proof in this thread. I am a physician, and I am very wary of the pharmaceutical companies. But these meds have been around for over a decade and have positive results. Now let me be clear, any med that is a mood altering drug can have side effects. But this medication literally just brings up serotonin to normal levels. I'd not be opposed at all to longitudinal studies in teens on this. But it isn't some massive conspiracy. The drug largely works.

The real question is why this nation is full of anxiety, depression, and dysphoria, but that is a different discussion involving capitalism, day to day life, and this country.

Such a dumb fucking post to get upvoted on /r/Conspiracy

Wow, pretty crazy to think about. People with mental issues that are prescribed drugs tend to do things that people with mental issues can end up doing. I also hear that medication is linked to 90% of suicide and 90% of self harm. How is this even a fucking headline you mutts.

Wow, who would've guessed that mentally ill people would be the ones who commit school shootings? What's next, are you going to tell me water is wet?

SSRIs do have their issues, no doubt about it, but acting like the drugs are the ones responsible for these crimes is laughably dumb. If you want to point a finger at anyone other than the killers themselves, point it at our failed mental health system and our stigmas surrounding mental illness, not the drugs that are supposed to be helping people.

But what is wrong with asking the question? Maybe these drugs bring out the worst of people with violent tendencies. It does dull down reality, I know from experience. It didn't make me violent, but I was never violent to begin with. It's like drinking alcohol some men beat their wives when they drink, some sit on the couch watch star trek with a grin on their face and fall asleep. If the drug is altering someones mind you have to consider that it could be a contributing factor and not disregard the possibility. This is a conspiracy subreddit and we are supposed to ask questions exactly like this. If we wanted to the cookie cutter answer we would be at /r/news

I understand your perspective, but the fact of the matter is that there are tons of factors that go into what leads to a mentally ill person shooting up a school. Clearly the mental health system was not able to get this person under control. But mental health is too complicated to boil it down to just medication.

For the record, I don't think that there's anything wrong with asking the question. I was simply explaining why something like this isn't taken seriously by the MSM. Clearly they're going to stick to their partisan arguments they have every time a tragedy like this happens. None of us should be surprised by that.

I will have to agree to disagree. Should countless kids die until we figure out exactly what the combo is that creates this violence? Whether you believe its the chicken or the egg in this article, there is one fact: Take guns out of hands of people on SSRIs and you will take guns out of the hands of 90% of the people who commit these crimes. yes some of these people still will find ways, but some won't. It's not like one day the shooters decide I'm going to kill someone and decide on a gun. Sometimes it can be a fantasy that builds over time just by having guns or being surrounding them. Shooting a gun is like a drug for some people. Never give them easy access to the drug and they may never pick up a weapon.

I would think something like you can't have guns if you are under 25 and are prescribed an SSRI would go a long way in preventing some deaths, and will still allow people who have a bit more maturity and also on SSRIs the ability to protect themselves and their family. A 19 year old with mental issues does not need to have a gun, but that's just my opinion. You're entitled to yours :).

I think you may have misunderstood what I was trying to say. I actually don't disagree with your viewpoint that young people on SSRIs probably shouldn't have access to firearms unless they can prove that they are capable of handling them and/or need one. I'm saying that as a young person on a SSRI.

The point of my previous comment was to say that mental health issues are really complicated and we really don't fully understand them yet, that's the problem. Our current system is not working and it is a shame to see things like this happen. SSRIs are supposed to be part of the solution and while they aren't perfect, they're really one of the only things that work right now.

Speaking generally, consider that SSRIs are given rather generously to many diagnoses. Mental illness is complicated to the extent that we don't know that they are any real than they are out of the norm. To me drugs are the absolute wrong way to go apart from in very specific cases. By accepting a person needs to be medicated is to accept that their affliction is abnormal and needs to be oppressed rather than expressed. We don't want to deal with the negativity of depression, or the deviance of many schizophrenic symptoms, so we give drugs and label it as not normal when I think in many of cases it is an honest and genuine reaction to the human condition, and need the attention and love of humanity. So I suppose you are right when you say it's complicated, because on one side of the spectrum many would prefer to dull the feelings with drugs, much like how many use alcohol, because they don't want to deal with it either.

I have a feeling that you personally don't experience any of the conditions we are speaking about. As a person who's life has been saved by SSRIs from suicidal thoughts, I can't fathom how you could possibly call the negativity of depression "an honest and genuine reaction to the human condition". Nobody should have to feel the way that I have felt.

I could agree with you possibly in the case of people who have incredibly mild cases of depression, but nobody should be forced to endure depression without the option of treatment.

As I've previously mentioned, medication alone can't save these people. They need therapy, they need a supportive family and peers, they need a surrounding world of people who understand their issues and they need those people to be accepting of them. Tragedies like this should prove that we need more treatment and more research.

I should be cautious because every case is different, but I feel that depression can be a stepping stone to a higher sense of living. Being dissatisfied with your own life is an indicator of a better way to live in my opinion, and should be celebrated. Depression for me is realising the ingenuity of the life I was living, it was maybe illness in that a higher reality called but I was not answering. I was never diagnosed, I wouldn't have wanted to because there were just a lot of obvious things in my life that would cause sadness so it would take away from those who didn't understand their own sadness. For me it's just a journey, and if you don't understand the journey of life you think there's something wrong with you. In a way there is something wrong, but you don't just try and return to the "norm" you look further. Some turn to God, others to spirituality, others to alcohol. It's actually terribly arrogant for me to talk for other people because it's all different, I just want to appeal to anyone that wants to think different you know.

There was already contraversy already about SSRIs actually, including suicide and violence around when it was first introduced. It's something that is obviously hard to study and pinpoint because everybody on it has already been declared mentally ill, thus it is so easily overlooked. In my opinion it is the dulling of the mind which leads to more extreme thinking. The brain is artificially dulled but that just leads to the thoughts that caused the illness to not express themselves properly as they should, you can imagine the stereotype of the quiet one that lets things build up and because the external causes of those things are not addressed by the drug, they just become worse because most of the time they are inhibited in order to function as normal, but they are no lessened. So I think it's a symptom of us in regarding issues caused by the general state of humanity to be chemical imbalance, and how would you feel if your feelings were regarded so and forced away through drugs? You'd probably snap, not nearly as worse as some but for those few this approach can result in terrible consequences.

Perhaps we can't discourage the use of the drug on these cases alone, but as an indicator that this approach to mental illness can be very flawed.

THANK YOU!!!!! IVE BEEN SAYING THIS FOR SO LONG.

Great argument if your only samples ome from the USA. Unfortunately other countries prescribe SSRIs and still aren't shooting up their highschools.

Using a throwaway for obvious reasons.

I've been perscribed SSRIs (Zoloft) for the past ~4 years on and off. I always stop taking them because they make you feel dull. I think that they can be helpful in the certain situation and patient (both mental, physical, and emotional status), they are not, however, a 'catch-all' fix it drug. Drugs are overperscribed in this country as it is.

I've never felt quite the same since I stopped taking that stuff. I wish I never did take them. Random worrying I never used to have. My brain goes all fuzzy sometimes and I can't concentrate.

I bet 100% there's a link, maybe not the root cause, but there is most likely a link between these drugs and these actions.

im I’m the same boat, but i was prescribed them about 20 years ago. By the same doctor Phil Hartman’s wife was seeing when she killed him. I now only smoke minimal cannabis and meditate, and it’s great. The other thing people forget is that life isn’t supposed to be rainbows and unicorns all the time. Shit sucks. People are mean. Society is a clusterfuck. The negatives should be used to guide what we want to change in the world, not some things to be dulled out by extremely dangerous drugs. Ever read the side effects panels on psych meds? The real kicker is that placebo has a HIGHER effectivity rate than antidepressants. That’s some fucked up shit right there, and the majority of the population has no idea because they don’t read the fucking manual.

I've been on some psych meds that were fucking terrible for me, and only made things worse/produced strange/scary side effects (these same meds actually helped other people I know with the same mental illness) and I've found meds that work incredibly effectively for me with no side effects what so ever (these same meds were ineffective/produced negative side effects in others) Your anecdotal experiences with psych meds aren't in any way indicative of their general efficacy.

Your anecdotal experiences with psych meds aren't in any way indicative of their general efficacy.

Do you realize you are posting an anecdotal experience? And you are posting the same comment again and again. Maybe the drugs have fucked up your brain.

My anecdotal experience is backed up by actual studies, that's the difference. Your retort is a sad and pathetic example of ad hominem. Maybe if you had any peer reviewed studies to support your claims, people with multiple science based degrees (B.S. majoring in Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, double minoring in both Math and Physics, M.S. in Biophysics, going for my Ph.D.), or even just the scientifically literate, wouldn't find your kind of drivel so laughable, and you wouldn't feel so triggered when educated people corrected you. Do the rest of the world a favor and don't breed.

Bur for some reason, on Reddit, people pop up and say they are the best thing ever>

Paid shills

At this point, statistically it isn't about betting. There is 100% a fucking link between these drugs (not just SSRI's, but a lot of prescription meds) and violent crimes, specifically these super-narcissistic ones where somebody kills many people with no remorse/empathy/FEELINGS.

The link is people who have a mental illness are more likely to both be prescribed meds and enact school shootings. I've been on some psych meds that were fucking terrible for me, and only made things worse and produced strange/scary side effects (these same meds actually helped other people in I know with the same mental illness) and I've found meds that work incredibly effectively for me with no side effects what so ever (these same meds were ineffective/produced negative side effects in others) Your anecdotal experiences with psych meds aren't in any way indicative of their general efficacy.

If its so widely prescribed and it causes people to shoot up schools then shouldnt there be a lot more school shootings?

8 school shootings in the first 7 weeks of this year. I’d say they’re happening with much more regularity.

So they only started prescribing it at the beginning of this year?

Its so obvious... Its more important to the leftist authoritarians that citizens are all drugged up, compliant, and unarmed.

Maybe, but guns linked to 100% of school shootings.

I'm racking my brain, but I can't think of a single time where a good guy with a gun got the bad guy.

In the church shooting a couple months ago: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/05/us/church-shooting-texas.html a good guy with a gun scared the shooter away, but not until 26 people died.

Children are also linked to 100% of school shootings. Why don't we require background checks, mental exams and permitting before we bear our future school shooters?

Fact: At least 36 school shootings and/or school-related acts of violence have been committed by those taking or withdrawing from psychiatric drugs resulting in 172 wounded and 80 killed (in other school shootings, information about their drug use was never made public—neither confirming or refuting if they were under the influence of prescribed drugs).

Reflecting the fact that mentally disturbed people, especially those with significant mental illness, are more likely to be on drugs.

If you want to draw a correlation you need to compare like populations; are medicated people with significant mental illness more likely to commit violence that unmedicated people with significant mental illness?

Yes. That’s the entire point of the statistic.

Not only are many diagnosed not on medicine.

But the ama says 50% go undiagnosed.

Those on medication are vastly overrepresented in shootings.

Those on medication are vastly overrepresented in shootings.

Let's see that data. You just finished talking about how many people are medicated, now you're saying there is a sufficient number of severely ill people who are not medicated to conclude that they are less violent.

The data is provided by OP is it not? 90%?

So 4 out of 5 shooters are on medication.

But here’s there data:

http://www.mentalhealthamerica.net/issues/state-mental-health-america

They say 56% of mental illness undiagnosed.

They also say 1 in 12 youths have major depressive episodes, and that 1.7million of them receive no treatment. So again about half of those who “have it” don’t get treated.

But once again the school shooters are always among those treated.

So we have multiple data points that seem to imply that those who don’t receive treatment are underrepresented.

If the treatment worked wouldn’t the undiagnosed or untreated be more common than the treated?

The people who are diagnosed and take medication are usually the most affected by their mental illness. Why not look at statistics from other countries? Oh because they contradict your argument...

The first school shooting in the US (other than an Indian attack) was in 1840. I guess they gave out SSRIs back then as well.

Thank you. Why doesn't anyone ever talk about this...suicides too...it literally says it right on the bottle.

People who have hair have been link to 100% of school shooting. MSM never cover it because it is big conspiracy.

what about how they are always affluent or in affluent neighborhoods? And the real kicker is the question, how many degrees removed from Lockheed Martin? I haven't heard anything yet for this one but just test out a few.

Guns are associated with 100% of school shootings so maybe we should try and put some checks on tht first? The second amendment doesn't protect weapons of war and allows for a restriction on ammunition / the size of magazines.

But yeah, let's focus on psych drugs.

Dumbass.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Read the Heller opinion by Scalia, they upheld Maryland's ban on assault weapons because they constitute "uncommon use" and are clearly weapons of war. You can't own explosives either.

Psych meds like SSRI's are a relatively new drug.

They change the way the brain works, only slightly, but were talking about a serious drug.

why not open the discussion / investigation to whats going on?

I agree completely. It we can attack this problem from multiple angles and the most practical and controllable aspect is to limit the killing power of weapons that are available to the public without any kind of training or purpose.

I think we should actually be treating the mentally ill. How much money would the families of the wounded and dead be willing to spend on healthcare, if only their people weren't dead? Wouldn't it have been better to help the shooter BEFORE he shot the people?

I agree 100%, we are way behind the curve with mental health and the stigma in this country doesn't help people seek treatment. Howevee, I also recognize use the fact that there's no way to prevent completely prevent mental illness from metasticizing into violence. I recognize that society will never be completely free of murderers. There's no guarantee to prevent weapons from falling into the hands of people who would use them to harm Innocents.

By that logic, it only makes sense that we would make some effort to reduce the killing power of weapons most available to the public. The founders could have never imagined the capability of semi or full-auto weapons and even justice Scalia, in his opinion on the Colombia v Heller decision, admitted that the second amendment didn't protect these weapons of war or large magazines that extend beyond "common use." Sure, it wouldn't stop someone from using a gun to kill people.... But the number of casualties would certainly be reduced.

IMHO it's not very sporting to have 20 round or even 15 round magazines. Rifles are too cumbersome to be used in necessary self defence. It seems to me hunters don't need anything more than a bolt action rifle. But I'm apparently in the minority of people who believes "sporting" means there's a chance you don't win. Hunters should be happy with the fact that deer don't shoot back. I know plenty of hunters have taken down big game with bolt action rifles.

I don't think hunting is a sport. If you're going to kill somebody, get on with it and kill them as quickly as possible, and cut down on the chance that your victim is running away in pain and fear while you reload and dick around. Every hunter should have a semi-automatic.

The decisions on killing people shouldn't be made at the level of what instrument is available. The decision should be made at the level of who is doing the killing. That means all forms of irresponsible, irrational nut jobs should be disarmed - whether the mentally ill, separatists, wife beaters, drug users, and the type of paranoiac who thinks they have to defend their home from droves of intruders with a gun. There should be tests, licensing, and national databases up the wazoo. A policeman should be able to enter an address or license plate into a database, and know exactly what kind of armaments are associated with the situation. Maybe once we have that kind of data, ATF would have the time to hunt down weapons owned by criminals.

It's a matter of practicality. We're never going to be able to accuratelyscreen a person's propensity for violence. All we can do is limit the damage.

Nobody needs a semi-automatic rifle. It only takes one bullet.

It is incredibly easy to screen someone's propensity for violence. 1) being abused as a child 2) living in a house where the adults are violent to each other 3) in utero and / or after utero exposure to toxins or drugs 4) No support system / isolation 5) recent life stressor

That's not even looking at the serial killer / psychopath type stuff like incontinence, porn problems, and animal torture.

Sure, we could screen people - hospital records (psychiatric), criminal records, CPS visits, domestic violence calls. What you mean by "never going to be able" is that we would rather spend money on our military than on building databases or providing social support for communities. As long as we spend $297,000,000,000 annually for military contractors, I'm sure we'll be too poor to fix the "unimportant" issues. Maybe when we cut foodstamps, or another piece of healthcare, we'll have the money we need.

Here's the thing-- we're the world enforcers. It's not where I'd like to be but we have the most massive military expenditure because it serves our interests. I agree, it's bloated... But nobody in any party seriously believes we need to stop funding our military.

What you've described is annecdotal. You won't find an academic study that suggests any of what you're suggesting. And you can't just discriminate against people becuase of their situations. The brain is complicated and we don't understand it all that well. It wasn't 50 years ago that we were giving people lobotomies for a variety of perdieved behavioral "disorders." You can't screen for violence. Period.

But we can prevent the degree of harm by reducing the weapons available to the public.

I think the key collapse in thought here is "massive military expediture because it serves our interests".

1. What are our interests exactly? I want some definitions at this point. "Terrorism" doesn't really cut it. A bunch of unemployed psychotics in the middle east are not going to be defeated by a war of attrition when the conditions there keep breeding unemployed psychotics. Plus, you've forgotten that on 9-11, our very own vice president stopped NORAD from intercepting the terrorists. So, is sabotaging the USA and allowing 3000 civilian deaths an acceptable definition of terrorism, even if performed by our own vice president? What were Cheney's/Halliburton's interests? What are America's interests now? Better lay down some clear definitions and objectives before the leeches finish bleeding us dry.

2. Is the funding commensurate with results? $279,000,000,000, and when our guys are in trouble in Niger, the FRENCH have to rescue them, and a GD contractor has to go collect the bodies. Meanwhile, our senators know we aren't spending money on training or maintenance, and they can't even keep track of where we're fighting or what we're doing. Never mind that our common-man president can't remember the names of the four dead long enough to offer decent condolences. BTW - $279,000,000,000 is the amount given to CONTRACTORS. That wasn't even to the USA military - that was to private corporations, who also received a 14% tax cut.

That seemed like a total detour from gun control. However, here is the connection: We have a society that is made of many parts, from Halliburton (or, if you prefer 2018, Lockheed Martin, Academi, Aegis, GK Sierra, etc), to the baby born in the throes of opioid withdrawal. All of those parts influence what happens here, and our state and national budgets, in turn, impact the functions of those parts. So, the money you use on one segment of society is obviously not used on another segment. Mass shootings are at some level a result of not using money to study, treat, prevent, etc. For example, Nikolas Cruz - he was basically under control while his mom was alive, right? Why was his mom not provided by HHS with training on how to raise a mentally ill person? Why did she not have healthcare to NOT die of the flu? How can we give the guy who called off NORAD a f'ing mechanical heart, and we can't prevent a mom from dying of the f'ing flu? THAT'S why first world countries don't have mass shootings. They spend their money differently.

This is compelling; however, you can't say with any amount of confidence that these shooters would not have done this if they had never started taking SSRIs in the first place. This seems like mental health problem to me, not a SSRI problem. Who knows, maybe there would have been even MORE shootings if no one was taking SSRIs.

The statistic implies a lot more when you note that “50% of mental illness is undiagnosed” according to the ama.

But those undiagnosed never go shooting up places.

So why do only the diagnoses shoot places up?

because you're more likely to receive a diagnosis and be put on meds, the more severely your mental illness affects you. How is that hard to understand?

Actually, with these statistics, you totally can say it. And with a fucking alarming amount of confidence.

it's almost as if correlation and causation are two different things

It’s actually a simple logical conclusion.

50% of mental illness is undiagnosed according to the ama.

And yet 90% of the shootings are on people medicated.

How come the unmedicated and undiagnosed are so vastly underrepresented in this?

I hate how people completely misunderstand and spout correlation causation bullshit.

Nowhere does it say that a correlation can not be causation. It simply means on its own without context a correlation does not equal a causation.

It’s actually a simple logical conclusion.

yes, you have accurately described every logical fallacy ever

Glad you didn’t read what I wrote. Your statement is the dumbest thing ever. You know not all logical conclusions are wrong right?

You also know that every causation is also a correlation while every correlation is not a causation?

it's a simple conclusion therefore it is a true one

are you just going to continue spouting off fallacies?

Now you’re making up things I didn’t say. Keep taking your Prozac obviously it’s helping.

ooh, look, some ad hominem sprinkled in

yeah, no wonder nobody is taking this seriously lol

Nah I know you’re a druggie because you make shit up and are incapable of responding to what someone actually says.

ooh, look, some ad hominem sprinkled in

yeah, no wonder nobody is taking this seriously lol

Either that or you can’t read. You’ve still avoided responding to any information I gave you in the initial comment. Instead you’ve used Reddit’s favorite terms:

Correlation doesn’t equal causation.

Ad hominem.

Don’t forget to check off straw man on your way to ignoring that you don’t know jack shit about the subject you’re discussing and thus have to deflect.

it's weird that you're able to accurately the logical fallacies which you have resorted to, but don't see that as a fundamental flaw in your argument

Wasting keystrokes lol. It’s like your entire life is made up of redditisms.

This comment section is near unanimous. So much so it almost seems astroturfed.

As soon as you criticize psychiatric medicine Reddit throws an absolute fucking fit.

It’s a little unnerving... like holy fuck, talk about brigades... the whole fucking mob showed up

And they constantly spout redditisms. Then ask for sources. Then when I give sources suddenly they are dead silent.

Pretty obvious to me lol.

The interesting thing about drugs like SSRIs is that symptoms often improve in "waves" when a person is first prescribed them, and it is well documented that most take upwards of 4 weeks to become effective. This is key to the "black box" suicide warning issued with them.

Depression has physical and psychological symptoms. Physical being things like fatigue, lethargy, hypersomnia, insomnia and psychomotor impairment, to name a few. Psychological symptoms being things like anhedonia, suicidal ideation, feelings of worthlessness, etc.

When someone is started on SSRIs, typically the physical symptoms will improve first. What this translates to is a person who is still possibly feeling suicidal and worthless, who was so depressed they could barely get out of bed, let alone formulate and carry-out a suicide plan now has a new found amount of energy. This is where the suicide risk comes into play, they suddenly have the energy and motivation to carry out suicide plans.

And no, I don't think SSRIs cause mass shootings.

Shut up.

Sigh. If more armed people = safety, Syria, Iraq, and most inner city neighborhoods in the US would be the safest places in the world. Oh, you can't? Those places aren't safe because of "criminals?" Funny how most mass shooters weren't "criminals" before they killed. Sorry...oops! They were "mentally ill." Riiiiighhhhhtttt.

Lame.

How many of the shooters were experiencing MK ULTRA (ie. programmed to kill and not crazy at all)?

Follow the money!

100% of school shootings involve guns. I think the NRA is trying to hide something

True but thats like saying that 100% of thunder storms involve lightning. It's kind of a statement that doesn't prove anything when you actually disect it, but to many idiots when they first hear that they will be like "YEAHHH, YOU ARE RIGHT, THERE IS ALWAYS THUNDER WHEN THERES LIGHTNING".

What about the timing of mass-shootings. Why did they start growing in number at the same time prescriptions to young-adults (and these drugs even existing) rose.

Yo. As I watch the news, all I could think of is the little gurl on CNN begging trump to do something on gun control. And then this happen. It’s like all the crazy shit u can think of has a weird correlation to something else that’s strangely unrelated. My mind is upside down. The US is the upside down. It got to be. And this is another one—meds. /s back to lurking.

You take that back, big pharma is financially at a loss with all of their meds and vaccines, they're doing it for love and for the children!!!

Cash Cow...lol they don't make any 'money' at all...sigh or at least you would think listening to the Vax sheeple on here :(

There's something else that is linked to even more school shootings.

Is everyone in psych meds? I don't take Tylenol when I have a headache and people are just doping themselves 24/7 with bullshit.

Congrats on never being sick or hospitalized. Doctors hate you. What's your 1 weird trick?

I only take medication vital to my survival.

They work by causing dis-inhibition. Normally your mind inhibits ideas of murder and violence. The drug can prevent the inhibition of these ideas an allow them to be acted out in reality.

Wat

Does anyone know why people keep blaming the NRA for this?

You people are morons.

Correlation is not causation. For instance, wearing underwear is linked to 100% of school shootings.

You don't think a 90% correlation warrants investigation?

What kind of investigation?

Scientific.

No, because anyone who shoots up a school is going to be mentally ill, and far more likely to be prescribed medication because of that.

linked to a widely prescribed type of antidepressant

This is not schizophrenia or other severe mental illness they're talking about. These are widely prescribed, maybe like Prozac? I'm not saying depression isn't a mental illness, but as someone who grew up with a full-blown paranoid schizophrenic, complete with visual and auditory hallucinations, depression is much more commonplace and the drugs are different; they work on serotonin and such, and they say they can decrease inhibition of violent acts.

So you have all these people — kids — on drugs long-term to elevate their mood to survive everyday life, and they can't handle when things really get bad, or they go off the drugs.

So 90% of mass shooters have mental health issues is what you’re admitting to.

How many Home Schooled shooters do you hear about?

I just made a comment in relation to this in a different thread; downvoted to oblivion.

MSM is fake news and the mouthpiece of the corrupt and do whatever they need to when paid off accordingly. Big Pharma, the Clinton campaign, so many things just stick out like a sore thumb on a hitchhiker.

Is this correlation or causation? I’d argue the point that one is highly likely to be mentally ill to kill innocent children so there’s a good chance they were on some type of med for that.

Access to guns is linked to 100% of school shootings.

Kids should hardly ever be "medicated" with psych drugs. If they can't handle daily life without drugs, they will never handle life when problems arise. This story needs to be spread far and wide.

And their gun control narrative

Fun fact: Almost everyone here knows multiple people on these drugs. Almost everyone here knows people with children on these drugs.

We have very serious problems.

Spending time with your kids and letting them play outside is now linked to 90% of school non-shootings.

Acehold parents and school administrations continually conspire to keep this from being known.*

FREE_JASON

FREE_JESSICA

Why are all the school shootings conducted by male suspects?

We know females commit 10% of all murders as adult employees, co-workers, and spouses. So why are they so underrepresented in high schools and college?

Are you trolling? What did you feel like you were achieving when you posted this comment?

It could be that girls at that age have more ways of getting attention than boys. A lot of school shooters seem to be looking for attention/notoriety, and shooting up a school is basically instant national recognition for an act that just takes moments to commit. I seem to recall that a lot of psychologists have been recommending for years that we give as little attention to the shooters as possible by not printing their names and such, because nihilistic notoriety seekers will continue to see it as an avenue to make a big splash and get some sort of recognition in a world that didn't notice them before.

"Guns Linked to 100% of School Shootings. GOP never wants to talk about this because it Messes with the NRA's Cash Cow"

I'm on meds, they have seemed to do nothing but help, I'm back in school and my life is alot better, but part of me thinks it's all just because I got a dog who I love alot recently

WND and Joseph Farah. No thanks

The US makes up 5% of the world's population but accounts for over 30% of the world's mass shootings. We have 240 million more guns that the next closest country, India. Maybe the problem is America and not SSRIs.

Yeah because kids just shoot kids if given access to guns naturally. /s

No, mentally ill kids shoot kids typically using AR-15 rifles.

Even if true. People with mental illness do horrible things? C'mon the pharm industry does enough horrible shit that we do not need to lay blame anywhere other than where it belongs. People who should not have access to very dangerous weapons have access. If anything mental health treatment should be further expanded.

Hospitals involved in most deaths....

correlation =/= causation

What are the two most glorified things in this country every fucking where you look?????? Hint: it's the same answer as for the next question. What are America's two biggest issues??? SEX & VIOLENCE.

100% of them are linked to easy access to guns.

They will always have the chicken or the egg argument, though. Big Pharma is untouchable because of this and no one can ever prove anything even with mountains of correlation and circumstantial evidence it will never ever be enough. So many peoples lives are obviously ruined by these drugs. Even most doctors will tell you they're horrible for you. Even a lot of psychiatrists are waking up to it. But still, people want the easy way out. Pop a pill to take care of your problems. It only makes it worse.

I don’t think this is much of a conspiracy. Anyone who goes for any sort of help when dealing with depression will have some sort of SSRI prescribed immediately.. It’s just what doctors jump to right away.

The illness that arises from abusive/shit upbringings and diet is the issue. At least they went for help first off, but sadly nothing worked and they would have just snapped.

Gun control has nothing to do with safety but control.The media and deep state know that emotional manipulation is more effective tool of control than government force. The answer to all this is security.its that simple

The answer to all this is security.its that simple

What do you mean by this? Taking people's guns away? More guns? Strict gun laws?

Guards, metal detectors etc

This is just my experience with other people on psych meds, not really related to the article.

I know quite a few people that has been - or are - on psych meds. Some of them are fine with the meds.

But some of them stop being people. (I know, just hear me out) I don't recognize their behavior, I cannot connect to them empathically. They are just strange, and scary. It is like all normal human emotions are gone and I'm interacting with a puppet, or a stupid sociopath.

All of them drank water too. MSN won't touch it because is messes with the Public Water Cash Cow.

Every single time I've seen lists like this there was absolutely no evidence for half of the people listed.

I think the real conspiracy is why this shit keeps getting shoved down our throats every time some nutjob goes on a rampage.

Step 1: Make people's lives miserable Step 2: Flouridate the water to calm them down and depress them even further Step 3: take away their anti depressants

Result: Complacent, scared, depressed populace which is more controllable.

As far as I know, pediatric physicians are very hesitant to prescribe, at least, anti depressants as it is known to much higher instances of adverse effects on teenagers. I don't know about ritalin/Adderall though.

Additionally, if a child is on psychiatric drugs, there's something amiss with that child, beyond the prescribed drugs and/or withdrawal from.

And as we all know, the onset of schizophrenia for males is late teens.

Wait, wait, so you think getting mental treatment is causin all of these problems in our society?

Selection bias

No surprise whatsoever. Not only does Western medicine have a limited understanding of the human physiology at large, even moreso is the inner workings of the brain essentially still a mystery to science.

Major psychological instability emerging in individuals with existing mental conditions who are taking basically experimental psych drugs is just... What else could you possibly expect?

It's similar to how anti depressants just fuck with your brain enough to increase the likelihood of serious suicidal thoughts and end up doing the opposite of what they are prescribed for

Correlation.. All of the school shooters were mentally ill, most of them had previously seen psychiatrists for their illness and most would have been put on medication..that's not causation

Antidepressants are certainly more impact full than society believes they are. Especially so in a mind that is still developing. I'd rather doctors prescribe weed than some of the powerful drugs they give out.

Completely unrelated to the debate over what happened with this school though

Guns linked to 100% of school shootings. New studies show that there have been guns involved in every school shooting so far

Attendance at schools has also been demonstrated to be a contributing factor.

What do you think is the problem? Guns being available to everyone or school attendance?

Human clothing linked to 100% of school shootings.

Strip!

Butthurt muricans irrational AF to protect their precious guns. Happens everytime

Yawn. Come back when you have original material.

Well obviously we will need to figure out if it's the guns or the school attendance that causes it.

So I would suggest no school for a period of 10 years, followed by no guns for 10 years. That will show us where the problem lies.

Guns linked to 100% of school shootings.

Most of these SSRI's are generic now and thus like $4 a month. Big pharma does a lot of fucked up things but there are literally millions of people on SSRIs and they arent all shooting up schools. Obviously the people shooting places up have issues and are more likely to be on prescriptions than the general population.

i've tried anti-deps once, my body couldn't tolerate that shit, couldn't eat for days, i'd vomit if i tried to eat anything. once I stopped, over course of several days the whole vomit thing stopped. columbine shooters were (at least one of em) was on SSRIs.

The actual problem aside from the SSRIs is the fact that the dumbass curriculum actually REQUIRES kids to read about fucking columbine senior year. I remember reading that shit I was like, why is this shit in school. Next day you see the new, weird kid show up in a trench coat and acting all awkward. then someone called him out on it, and he didn't know what to say aside from the fact he wanted to troll.

Also lazy terrible parents who would rather drug their kids than raise them would rather just gobble down whatever CNN tells them.

Or, bear with me here, the mental issues that require medication contribute to this issue. If all people who take aspirin experience headaches, it's probably because they took aspirin for their headache.

He was in some sort of dark web snuff film its nothing to do with his meds he had been druged and noone noticed

Source on this? I hadn’t heard that.

This Noone guy is always noticing. We should talk to him.

Guns 100% linked to all school shootings, but then again what do I know

There have been plenty of guns for 200 years, but only school shootings recently, since media make a ratings bonanza of it

Or just it is easier to report to the entire world than it was 200 years ago so you hear about it more and it may not have been school shootings but would have been mindless killing of innocents in one way or another because of the lax gun rules

Nah, press would have reported it. There were plenty of guns then, even with children, and no background checks.

This just in, boardshorts linked to 90% of drownings

Are you saying that gun industry is insignificant? Cause I can see that your MSM constantly rails against the gun industry every time a shooting happens in your country.

I think the biggest problem with American culture is the lack of proper family bonding. When your parents pay the minimum attention you need, you don't go full psycho and add easily available guns to that, you've got yourself weekly school shootings.

No wonder, because noone that is not a psycho would do a school shooting

My opinion won't be popular but I believe it's the bullying and isolation culture that happens in the US schools that causes this. Sure kids are awful anywhere but other countries have their own variables to deal with this, such as strong religious beliefs and a strong sense of discipline and honor, whereas 'muricans are self entitled and individualists AF. In my humble non 'murican opinion the only way to fix this is with mandatory weekly counseling for ALL kids in ALL schools, which would cost heaps of cash just to hire the psychologists to begin with. Besides it would never happen because you'd also have to convince the parents that therapy is an actual thing. Don't mean to offend - each subculture has their little quirks. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

The guns help too

Me, I'm going for the unique factor, but if you want to follow what you've been fed, you do you.

Sure, but if he walked in with finger guns saying PEW PEW PEW it wouldn't be as effective. But what do I know.

Did U kno?

100 million plus Americans own guns.

100 million plus Americans have never shot anyone.

Maybe, and I'm just throwing this out there, there's another factor to look at?

Yes. Easy access to weapons, a violent culture and a mental health crisis.

"easy access to weapons"

Not thinking at all today, are you?

100 million plus Americans own guns.

Do you know the hoops one must jump through to get a shooter in the UK?

Why in every shooting are there no life flights? No bodies transferred to the hospital... no hurry to save anyone. I know for a fact it takes precision to kill with just one or two gunshots, and this 19 year old or Adam Lanza etc do not have that precision. Why are there always high body counts and no saved lives?

How about "Mental Illness Linked to 90% of School Shootings"

Pharma shills are very active in this thread

As someone who takes ssri's, and since all the rational, scientific responses have been said, fuck you, OP. You are scum of the earth.

He's the "scum of the earth" for posting an opinion? I see your SSRI's are really helping you, aren't they.

No, he's scum of the earth for furthering an irrational, anti-science argument about mental health medication. And not that you care, but they are actually working amazing for me

You seem pretty angry. Could it be perhaps the meds? Maybe you just get angry on the meds, other get angrier and do school shootings. Everyone's brain is different. Meds work differently on different people. Did you know that some people are allergic to some meds? Oh my!! See now?

Nah, I'm actually significantly less angry now because of the meds. And whilst it is true that meds affect everyone differently, this guy is peddling classic anti-science bullshit always brought up all-out mental health, which is why he's scum.

Hey man this is the youtube ceo speaking at you buddy, we have recently acquired reddit and are managing it's ad market.

First, love your enthusiasm. We appreciate people like you making great content for this site.

Second, gotta pull this down buddy, that is not advertiser friendly. The medical market is a big one and we want to expand to those numbers we can give to our creators.

Thanks again, if you have an problems then please take them to a pharmacist.

Bullshit! It’s the easy access to guns. Conspiracy solved.

Correlation isn't causation.

Labels on the SSRI meds warn about increased suicide in youths, and ADHD meds about aggression as side effects

its not just the pharma drugs. its more coordinated and evil than just making a drug that causes people to do shootings.

I think these drugs are designed intentionally to interact with specific symbols and messages embedded in MSM and video games. This allows them to set false flag event by triggering this kind of incident they might not know when or who will do it, but they know it is likely to happen.

If that doesnt work they have their more hands on mk ultra approach. Ted Kazunski, James Holmes (dark knight shooter patsy), and Charles Mansen had clear MK ultra connections.

In science these connections between mk ultra and shootings would be considered statistically sitnificant, meaning that it shows that there is a clear link between mk ultra and violent shootings in modern US history.

It's more then 90% when you just consider "prescription meds" (which would include anti-anxiety/psychotic as well as SSRI's).

TIL: a lot of people in this sub are on SSRIs

Definitely because of the psych meds and not because of the mental illness that caused them to be put on psych meds. lol ffs.

C O R R E L A T I O N

The conspiracy is to set up Americans for a life long treatable diseases, so pharmaceutical companies can keep selling you designer poison for life. That's the whole goal of vaccines, the pharmas are double dipping, they make money on the vaccines, and then they make money treating your auto-immune disorders.

I'm bipolar. Psychiatric medications, including SSRI's, have saved my life.

Are you a $cientologist?

Thread has been derailed by pharma shills who are doing everything in their power to blame everything but their designer poisons.

ITT: It's the people's fault, it's the guns fault, it's republican's fault, it's everyone's fault except the drugs, the manufacturers don't really know how it works, possible cascade effects, or fully understand the neurology behind it. But fuck it, they have millions to spend on advertising and marketing, and we can't talk bad about the sponsors.

I am So tired of this idea psych meds are a big scam.As someone who spent a career in mental health I can tell you many many people lead better lives because they had medicines.Stop with the Med Shaming.

Let’s talk about the elephant in the room. (Gun control). After all, bullets killed those children.

100% of school shootings involve guns.

Not dealt with for exactly the same reason. Big buisness and lobbiests are running roughshod over All of us.

The most effective and efficient thing we can do now in the short-term is to arm Teachers and Admins for self-defense. Imagine several frequently trained Teachers at your school with AR15s locked in special cabinets in their classrooms. Like I said, this is a temporary counter-measure, we have a major issue with enforcement of gun laws and we need to improve laws such as auditing families with suspect children (like this recent scumbag). Taking guns if anything is long-term, we need effective action today.

Allowing Teachers to legally possess a firearm costs almost nothing, and if there is a way to allow personally owned weapons, that would further reduce the cost. I know of many Teachers who would be pro-gun as in willing to buy their equipment, as they dont want to die or see others die, so enabling actual self-defense against shooters is key to survival.

Most of this news that people claim the MSM refuses to cover are usually actually reported first by the MSM.

Speaking of mental illness, that's a Scientology link.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_Commission_on_Human_Rights

This is why you have to rule out bipolar disorder before starting an antidepressant. Antidepressants can cause people to switch to mania, which can open the door to all kinds of terrible problems.

Guns are linked to 100% of school shootings.

Guns linked with 100%

I don't know why people think this is so far fetched. It's basically the hypothesis of "The Bourne Legacy," when they imply that mass shootings are done by people on mind-controlling drugs, in the lab shooting scene.

oh my god this shit pisses me off.

it's almost like guns are linked to 100% of school shootings. and 100% of guns are designed to kill.

SSRIs linked to 90% of school shootings. 100% of SSRIs are designed to treat depression and similar illnesses. 80% of depression cases improve with SSRIs. millions and millions of people take SSRIs and millions and millions of people don't shoot up schools. what do you wanna do? ban SSRIs?

i'm no psychiatrist, but as someone who takes SSRIs i was warned of the slight increased risk of suicide they bring, because, as far as i know, if you have suicidal thoughts, these give you energy to recover, but in a minority, also energy to go through with it. also, there's an increased rate of suicide among people on SSRIs just because they're probably suicidal already and no drugs a miracle cure. iirc 1% of people with suicidal thoughts also have homicidal thoughts, so i'm guessing the same could apply and yeah, maybe 90% of school shooters are on antidepressants. but that's such a small minority of people on antidepressants in general, do you not realise that maybe its the guns and the homicidality that's the problem not the fucking drugs prescribed to treat it ??

correlation =/= causation.

Psychology is a FAKE medicine based only on observation and guesses. It has almost ZERO actual science and proof behind any of it.

Why people believe a single thing that psychologists say is just amazing.

It is really tragic that the real problem gets pushed to the side.

American culture treats the mentally ill like shit.Everytime a mass shooting happens politicians talk about mental health.About loons,nutjobs,crazy People.Yet when it comes to funding for mental health causes they always say no.Ever heard of Greyhound therapy?That's the prefered choice. And btw. the mentally ill are far more likely to experience violence rather than be perpetrators.

Unfortunately lobbying leaves me with nearly zero hope for any positive change.Be it gun regulation or mental health.

No because liberals want to push the anti-gun agenda

It’s access to guns

Well yeah - but I think you're looking at it backwards. People who don't feel like shooting up a school, aren't going to be on the drug. If you feel like shooting up a school, you'll be on the drug pronto. The police had him in the police cruiser for only minutes before they were all, "hell, no - we need some sedatives here", and packed him off in an ambulance. The problem is that the drugs aren't as great as everyone hopes. They aren't antibiotics. What a person that feels like shooting up a school actually needs is a lot of human support on top of the semi-decent drug. You also don't hear people talking about the cost of seeing a counselor, or surviving without money while being unemployable. Was the guy on SSDI? Was he seeing a counselor for cognitive behavioral therapy at least once a week? Was his family being educated on how to handle a mental person? Nope. Well, instead of paying for his healthcare, we now have a bunch of dead, and we can pay to keep him in jail.

Guns linked to 100% of school shootings. Alternative media never covers this because it messes with the gun lobby's cash cow.

FTFY

knives linked to 100% knife stabbings.

vehicles linked to 100% vehicular homicides

bombs linked to 100% bombings

Nice redirect.

Anti-depressants help many people. But some people have awful side effects with them, or the drug doesn't work on a particular person.

A few years ago I was prescribed Adderal. Well, if you know me online (check my posts) and in real life, I am a very kind person. Yes, even online. Well, Adderal made me mean! I was actually picking verbal fights in real life (which is totally not me).

I finally figured out it was the medicine and stopped taking it. After a few days, I was back to normal.

Anti-depressants in every single actual scientific study have absolutely no significant help different than placebos.

Psychology is fake.

Here is what the medical industry does not want you to know.

AD drugs and SSRI's are proven to have no statistical benefit higher than placebos when real scientific tests are actually done on them.

https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20080227/antidepressants-no-better-than-placebo#1

Well, in my case, they did work (except the Adderal). Not on them now. But for the brief time I was on them, it helped.

But I do agree that it doesn't help all people. And also, in some cases, has bad side effects.

Think bigger, people. If you were leading the world’s first superpower from the shadows as it slowly started collapsing, would you:

A: clamp down on enforcement of the populace or B: encourage lots of gun ownership to prevent outside invaders from getting any ideas

Cos every shooting leads to ONE thing: more gun sales. Think about it. The U.S. is a porcupine of gun owners. No one in their right mind would invade.

There is no way for every mass shooting to be a false flag. But people that believe in Dems v Repubs or liberal v conservative don’t deserve to call themselves theorists. Go watch your TV. The world is bigger than those bogeyman stories that never come true. So think bigger.

tl;dr I’m not totally right, but you’re definitely wrong.

I am amazed bg drug consumption in us. Hopefully big pharma will bite the dust, one ceo at the time.

Ok. Enjoy your kool-aid, then.

For anyone that isn’t proud of their blue pill choice:

https://experiencelife.com/article/the-calorie-myth/

One of john grishams novels is about this.

Yeah dude ever since i started this antidepressant i've just been itchin to shoot up a school

Does not affect everyone the same way. That is often the case -' some people are more vulnerable than others.

NRA ads like this cause this sort of thing to happen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrnIVVWtAag

Sometimes I wonder, is the best way to fix depression to use synthetic chemicals targeting a single neurotransmitter in the brain? Perhaps there are things the brain / body is actually designed to take in that will bring the mind and body back to normal.

Shootings are correlated to SSRIs because that's what they prescribe for depression. Imagine that; depressed people kill themselves and others at a higher rate than normal people. Who knew?

Bad title.

Not sure the issue is meds or mental illness. It's super easy to play the mental illness angle.

Mass shootings and killing people are not symptoms of any specified mental illness.

One can be suicidal or homicidal and not have a formal mental illness diagnosis.

There is no medicine that is designed to treat suicidality or homicidality.

If you are thinking about hurting yourself or others, please get help.

Treatment works.

What if the whole thing starts with our education system , then moves over to our television programming, then moves to the next step like lack of jobs ? The whole depression cycle has been started and then we have the big push on the availability of guns . Ever notice how the school shooters are never shot and killed?

I thought the Sandy Hook one was shot and killed. I think several were.

So it's the drugs right? Not the unstable people. The link is def the drugs.

Yes, the people are unstable, but it is the drugs that send them in this direction. The drugs can make a depressed person psychotic. There is a meaningful link that needs to be looked at more carefully.

I'm fully aware as I've been on SSRi's...but even people like me have a conscious. To blame the meds is one thing, to draw a correlation and say it's the meds is another. It makes more sense to draw the conclusion that most people who commit these crimes are severely disturbed People, not just someone who's depressed.

Big Pharma, Big Oil, Big media, Big Finance.

They're the same people.

Quick and easy fix. Stop selling assault rifles to mentally ill People.

i really dont understand why people dont bring this up. msm seems to stay away from it. Im from philadelphia and not only has big pharma ruined family members lives but also the city i live in.

I used to work in a residential treatment center for violent teenagers. I gave them their medications.

One drug in particular called Seroquel was supposed to treat schizophrenics and severe anger issues.

Many kids on it complained it really fucked with their heads. From what I saw it made them into unnatural zombies. What was scary about it is when a kid would stop taking it even for a day, they would often go crazy, becoming angry and violent.

I had kids intentionally not take it knowing it would make them act up to get revenge or attention from guards.

Not sure if Seroquel is in the same class of drugs, but it is widely administered to the same kind of kid as Kruz in US institutions.

Nobody should have to take it.

Wow, this is fucking stupid dude

Damn didn't know there were factories in the US in 1858, that WOMEN worked in. TIL

No, it's because it's just as easy to get a gun. If you go to a place where it is more difficult to get a gun, like, say, England, you find a lot more assaults with knives.

People are going to go on killing each other for whatever reasons exist in the current social culture. Whether it be terrorism, government sponsored terrorism, mental health issues, racism, or any of the million odd personal reasons somebody thinks that it's okay to take other's lives. They are simply going to find the best tool they can for the job. I work with a knife in a kitchen and I can absolutely guarantee you I could kill a man with just as little effort with that knife as I could with my gun. The ONLY difference would be in how close I needed to be to do it.

Maybe that's why they stage ones with senseless killing. Keeps us guessing.

A good safe is priceless

I was being figurative, not literal

My father spent $900 on a full sized gun case. I couldn't get into there if I tried.

The entire country of Iceland is about as big as the Yakima metro area.

It is too small of a sample size to matter.

I'm racking my brain, but I can't think of a single time where a good guy with a gun got the bad guy.

In the church shooting a couple months ago: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/05/us/church-shooting-texas.html a good guy with a gun scared the shooter away, but not until 26 people died.

It's not the gluten trust me.

Ditto, been in that same place before. Wish I could handle my brain med free, but I’m just not there.

Nope. I'm agreeing with the person above that correlation isn't always causation. In your link the US is at 110 per 1000, and Iceland, the second highest, is at 106 per 1000.

How many other countries with high rates of antidepressant usage have problems with mass killings?

Perhaps no one has looked into it further and OP is trying to bring attention to it and start a discussion, then maybe someone will look into it.

I didn't think the question was about the source of the weapons. That was certainly not clear from the comment I replied to.

If tracking anti-depressants and it's link to school shootings in America while trying to discover a connection across cultures, I would think it prudent to consider anti-depressants culpability in a variety of other destructive behaviors as well. Something like seeing if there is an increase in Japan of dudes going to the suicide Forrest and an increase in suicide bombings in a place like maybe Pakistan or Iraq and it's potential connection to anti-depressants, if that makes sense? What exactly this vague notion would tell researchers I'm not sure, but it passes my personal kinda makes logical sense off hand sensibilities.

If tracking anti-depressants and it's link to school shootings in America while trying to discover a connection across cultures, I would think it prudent to consider anti-depressants culpability in a variety of other destructive behaviors as well. Something like seeing if there is an increase in Japan of dudes going to the suicide forest or an increase in suicide bombings in a place like maybe Pakistan or Iraq or hostage taking or whatever and then assess it's potential connection to anti-depressants, if that makes sense? What exactly this vague notion would tell researchers I'm not sure, but it passes my personal kinda makes logical sense off hand sensibilities.

If Iceland simply doesn't have guns or a ton but still a ton of anti-depressants, than Iceland should be studied for culturally relevant or specific deviant and/or destructive behavior.

I don’t know if you’re being sarcastic, but I can assure you there has never been a school shooting in Iceland. And people here don’t own guns unless it’s for hunting dear. The police doesn’t even carry guns.

I was being sarcastic but in fact Iceland does have a fair number of guns, they just have very tight control over them.

https://grapevine.is/mag/feature/2017/07/06/90000-guns-but-no-gun-related-crimes/

Not buying the gluten theory. Been off of grains for 9 months and depression did not leave. It’s genetic/inherited in most cases.

This again filters people. You need more money and connections to get illegal guns. You need to find some one that has proper weapons and is willing to take a risk of selling to you. There is added risk with the possibility of sting operations or seller just jacking your money. Again reducing the odds of a mass shooting.

Did U kno?

100 million plus Americans own guns.

100 million plus Americans have never shot anyone.

Maybe, and I'm just throwing this out there, there's another factor to look at?

I never experienced it personally but I had a friend who tried to kill himself and a family member who went on essentially an insane crime spree both while on zoloft. Numerous other people have told me that Zoloft made them insane and if they stopped taking it it made them hyper-depressed.

These things are known side effects.

Diet probably has an affect. I would say our media culture is a big part of it

High calorie foods do not cause weight gain or Michael Phelps would be an elephant. Me thinks you protest too much.

Ok. Enjoy your kool-aid, then.

For anyone that isn’t proud of their blue pill choice:

https://experiencelife.com/article/the-calorie-myth/

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/debunking-the-calorie-myth

"It’s not that calories don’t exist or that the “calories in, calories out” equation doesn’t apply"

From your poorly written obviously biased article from a nobody trying to sell his book.

GO ahead then buddy. Eat a ton of high calorie foods, don't exercise, and show me how you don't gain weight.

http://drhyman.com/blog/2014/04/10/calories-dont-matter/

https://rebootedbody.com/calories/

On a full read. This is basically the keto diet that he is recommending. Almost to the T.

Or it means that our crazy people have more access to guns.

I’m thinking maybe you could be on the wrong stuff. Just a thought though. Don’t get me wrong some people benefit from meds so that’s fine with me. They could possibly transition you if you’re trying to get off Zoloft. Don’t take anything I’m saying seriously. Absolutely talk to a doctor.

Go away troll.

If agreeing with you defines me as a troll, then that defines you as . . .

But school shootings are a "thing" now. Since Columbine was so heavily sensationalized by the media, everyone knows the story. It's sad that it sounds like a good idea to fucked up kids.

I'm fully aware as I've been on SSRi's...but even people like me have a conscious. To blame the meds is one thing, to draw a correlation and say it's the meds is another. It makes more sense to draw the conclusion that most people who commit these crimes are severely disturbed People, not just someone who's depressed.

I should read that book. Is revisited different from Brave New World (not revisited)?