Then don’t support him. No need to indoctrinate others to your beliefs.

People have a varying spectrum of beliefs, and do or do not have faith in him for a litany of reasons that may or may not be different from yours. Quit painting this sub with your broad fucking brush.

Props for seeing that he's not who you thought he'd be.

Props

Anybody else out there reading this shit? Hello?

I read it. So what.

Well we see your first mistake, one does not "trust a politician". Even am imitation one.

Lying is what they do. It is the reason so many lawyers become politicians... they are professional liars.

This is like citizen101 material.

Many of the people who voted for him were people that typically didn't vote, historically.

The 20-50 uneducated working class men. Got suckered and swayed the vote.

I still can't believe that Donald Trump is your president. It seems like a joke almost. Well it was on the Simpsons I guess. A couple times.

What will be a real testement of America is if he makes it to the next election and how he does then

Trump 2020. I hold several graduate degrees. You don’t understand the Trump phenomenon at all. You’re spewing emotion based talking points.

Right. Crazy talk. I call bullshit on every point you made

I actually laughed out loud at this. The "several graduate degrees" part got me. r/iamverysmart is calling.

Maybe he will be old enough to vote in 2020

And after all that he was still the best choice...by far.

There was always no choice.

What would happen with 51% spoiled ballots?

I really don't have a dog in the fight. I suspect at least one if not both Bush elections were rigged and honestly feel like our national elections are usually rigged not by Russians but by the usual suspects who own banking and by proxy pretty much everything else.

that said there's been no evidence that the Russians changed a single vote. I don't see why the DNC gets away with sabotaging Bernie Sanders' primary campaign. At the least thats outright fraud against anyone who donated money or significant time to either campaign under the impression that it was a fair contest. We should start our outrage with what can be proven.

I too agree that the US elections have been fraudulent from electronic voting machine shenanigans to dead people voting there is enough evidence for this to be a certainty.

How the public is not more up in arms over this is unfathomable.

I guess the paring down of the education system and the heavy metals in everything are taking effect.

I think you might be one of the most open minded people if you went from supporting Trump to realizing that he's a total fraud. It takes guts to stick to believing in Trump, as valueless as it may be, and it takes even more guts to stop believing in something that took so much effort to in the first place.

I feel you man.

I've been watching as he's kept up the ridiculous reality show of distractions While quietly doing exactly what you said in the OP. If anyone thinks any of this immigration nonsense, endless gun control blather, pronstar affairs, or anything else that's pretty much clogging the news is the real story then at this point they have to be really trying hard to keep their heads in the sand.

yes, because if you don't like it it's indoctrination right?

Nah, but trying to get an entire forum to rally around your belief with horribly stated and sourced materials is, friendo.

Isn't that the point of this sub?

No the point of this sub is to provide a platform to the self-proclaimed free thinkers to discuss conspiratory topics. Not to promote homogenous thought and echo chambers. Thought that would be pretty clear from the description this sub has given itself in the “about this community” section.

We’ve been sold lies for a century, but this particular liar is at least entertaining. King troll Trump

I don’t know how this administration could be supported by anyone, Jeff Sessions alone is enough to disillusion them. I adamantly supported the guy until I realized he’s just lying scum.

Yeah, and he's not going to build the wall either. Nothing good will come from Trump. At all.

Only if you don't pay taxes. If you do, you have likely already benefitted. I know I have. Nevermind my IRA. And nevermind trade deals like TPP and NAFTA.

So you're saying the only thing you care about is personal wealth? Sounds about right.

Nope, I clearly didn't say that. Its one good thing that has come out of Trump's Presidency. You could really use some work on your reading comprehension, no offense.

Well the only thing you mentioned as a retort to "nothing good will come from trump" were your personal finances.

No shit, that is at least one good thing that has already come from Trump. And its illogical to interpret that as meaning that all I care about is personal wealth. I even mentioned trade in there, making it even more illogical to assume that all I care about is personal wealth. Hope this helps.

You don't care about personal wealth?

I personally care about this country and all the people in it.

And the wars our taxes fund! /S

I’d like to think I’d die for this country so I do love this country more than personal wealth

That answer doesn't make any sense.

Compared to what? Do I care if somebody gives me $5k? Of course I do, that's a lot of money. Do I care if that same person that gave me $5k gives $10 million dollars to the guy next to me that already has millions and millions of dollars? Well all of a sudden that $5k doesn't seem so great.

People on this sub rail against Big Pharma, media conglomerates, the military industrial complex, shady billionaires, etc... etc... Well, guess who benefits THE MOST out of everybody else from these tax cuts? I'll just go ahead and spell it out, it's Big Pharma, media conflomerates, the military industrial complex, shady billionaires, etc... etc...

There is no way to logically reconcile being AGAINST corporate control of our population and our country but FOR this tax cut.

Who cares if the guy next to you gets $10 million? Does that make your $5,000 less valuable? What a stupid answer to a simple question.

Actually yes, objectively if Person A and Person B each have a set amount of money, and Person A receives $5,000 while Person B receives $10 million dollars, Person A's share of the overall pool of wealth has decreased. So yes, as the people around you receive more money and you receive less, your share of overall wealth becomes smaller.

Your hypothesis only works if (1) each person starts with the same amount, (2) the overall pool is a set amount, and (3) A and B are the only two people in the equation.

Your model means nothing in a world of fiat money, interest, and other humans creating capital. So, your model is meaningless and still doesn't address the actual question.

If you're communist, just say it. Then we could have a relevant conversation, instead of pretending that we're talking about the same thing.

The question was: do you care about personal wealth? Your answer was: I only care about monetary wealth if everyone receives the same amount.

Just for clarification, if everyone has the same amount of personal wealth, do they really have "wealth?" Isn't what makes it "wealth" in the first place the fact that it's more than average?

You think a temporary 2% tax cut for individuals and higher taxes on small businesses so that multi-national corporations can get a permanent 14% tax cut is a good thing? Who do think is going to pay for 1 trillion they've added to the budget deficit?

Yes, any tax cuts are a good thing. Taxes are a joke. Personally, I'm saving over $3K this year. That's definitely a good thing for me.

Ah yes, the classic capitalist mentality. "I don't care if the nation sells its soul to China to finance a feast for the rich, I'm sure they'll leave some breadcrumbs for me!" The elites are hollowing out everything we once stood for and every now and then hand out small prizes, so that short-sighted materialists like yourself will be too preoccupied by their slightly fancier new automobile to notice the fall of civilisations.

TLDR. After the first sentence I could tell your ignorance would make the rest of it worthless trash.

You won't argue it cause you know it's true

You're willing to overlook the complete shit show Trump and his administration is because you have more money in your pocket.

Man, you need a mirror if you're looking for ignorance.

Good argument r/politics guy

Hey, I don't have a horse in this race but I do want to say you're a big cunt.

Its actually very satisfying when a bunch of shills and morons downvote me and respond to me with dumb comments. It just gives me even more confidence that I am in the right. If a bunch of degenerates were agreeing with me, I would be concerned.

Don't care if you think you're right. Just wanted to tell you you're a minge.

You're the one that didn't answer the question initially! He was just pointing out your avoidance of a legit issue raised. 😂

TFW you post in T_D and still think you have room to talk about anyone else's subreddit affiliations.

Lul.

If I am so ignorant, surely you would be able to come up with a better counterargument than an empty ad hominem?

Trump's cabinet plunging America into greater and greater debt

The president only proposes a budget. Congress actually writes it and passes it. The entire federal government can't spend one penny with congressional approval. The biggest problem in this country is ignorant people like you who think the president is some kind of supreme authority.

You say that as if Trumps party doesn't control both the house and senate.

You are not making any sense whatsoever. Mr Trump proposed the current budget and the fact that it has to go through Congress first does not in any way relieve him of responsibility.

RedYagoda fiddles while Rome burns.

Congrats on the Costco membership!

Whatever. At least I don't have to listen to that screeching, cackling harpy in a pants suit for four years. My god that broad is annoying. It's no wonder Bill was sliding it to fat interns after living with that... that... THING for twenty years.

n to that screeching, cackling harpy in a pants suit for four years. My god that broad is annoying. It's no wonder Bill was sliding it to fat interns after living with that... that... THING for twenty years.

This is the kind of retarded thinking you think is harmless but just ends up fucking everyone. STUPID

I miss Obama. When Obama was behind something truly evil, you could feel the Machiavellian genius and fire up real hate towards him. Trump is so dumb that if he does something evil you're not even getting mad at him, you're getting mad at his stupidity. It's not fun.

When was Obama for something good? I think Trump sucks too. Who would have guessed a multi millionaire would get elected and then go on to serve his own interests? And no one saw it coming?
Clinton would have been worse. Basically, anyone qualified wouldn't want the job.

Hillary would have been much worse. That bitch is the reptilian that kickstarted David Icke's career.

You keep telling yourself that as Trump and co. proceed to bone you without lube - it'll maybe help with the trauma

That's the kind of response I'd expect from a close and narrow minded liberal

keep telling yourself that, and please keep attacking people with one-liners calling them ‘liberals’. It’s working, but not having the effect you’re hoping for.

And another braindead liberal response, exactly as I expected. Instant projection, assuming that the people who care about facts and reason are just emotionally unwell people like yourself trying to get a kick out of committing the grave sin of disagreeing with generation tide pod's communism 2.0. When you're mentally unstable and project that onto others, it's very challenging to consider that perhaps the person disagreeing with you is actually saying what they think and not trying to get an "effect" out of you.

Uncivilized, mindless, disrespectful, ignorant, and meaningless talk, all at once from a successfully brainwashed liberal is one of the most predictable things nowadays. If someone disagrees with you, they're obviously a Trump supporting neo Nazi fascist racist just like CNN told you they were. I don't need to remind you of that though, because putting it all out in the open really kills the immersion of the fantasy world where you and other highly educated woke activists are saving America from neo Nazis and Russian spies by harassing people and screaming.

Obama denuked Syria and essential Iran. Expanded medical coverage, and the financial recovery after Bush.

Also destroyed Libya and Syria.

Yeah bailing out Wall Street was such a great thing and entering Syria was totally necessary

/s

Making sure all those Americans could see a doctor was pretty freaking evil. He doubled down when he expanded Childrens Health Insurance too.

I never saw anything truly evil about Obama. He was far more hawkish militarily than anyone had anticipated, but it did lead to a lot of dead terrorists including Osama bin Laden.

People were comparing him to the anti-christ, but in comparison to Trump, he was a Saint.

Obamacare was a fucking disaster, are you kidding me? Healthcare costs and premiums have been spiraling out of control the entire time. The entire system is right out of a nightmare. There is some real 1984 doublethink going on in this thread.

I wouldnt call it a fucking disaster. It still provided coverage to millions of Americans who were priced out under the old system and it held insurance companies accountable.

We could have gone single payer, but it was a non starter. Nobody else had any better plans to put on the table. The fact remains the system was broken before Obamacare and while it had its faults, it still covered more Americans than ever before.

Healthcare costs have always been rising and outpacing inflation. premiums had been escalating for years. We actually saw rates decrease after Obamacare was implemented based on the percentages they had been rising before it was passed. Our small business saw rates go down than what we had been paying before Obamacare, much of that a result of being able to shop rates side by side on the exchange. The competition on exchanges caused insurance companies to lower rates to attract more customers.

Obamacare, while its had its problems and could use some tweeks, was a net benefit for American citizens who could no longer be denied coverage or care and left to die by the insurance companies.

The doublethink is believing the prior system was somehow superior when it left Americans to die in order to preserve profit. We're the richest nation in the world and the only country that spends 3/4's of a trillion dollars on defense that thinks healthcare for our citizens will bankrupt us.

You're pretty much just reciting DNC propaganda. So it provided coverage to millions of Americans, perhaps, while making sure that millions more could never afford to go to the doctor. What good is it to have health insurance if you can't afford to use it? The only benefit is we get to point at a number and say how many more people now have health insurance. Even the language you are using, "health coverage", is loaded to hide the fact that it doesn't really cover anything for the average person who was forced to buy into the system. There were only two small slices of the population that were helped by Obamacare:

1. People with income just above the federal poverty level living in a state which chose not to expand Medicaid. These people were eligible for "cost sharing reduction" programs which made their premiums and deductibles affordable with mediocre coverage networks. This was a temporary bandaid intended only to sell Obamacare as palatable, helpful program.

2. People with major, chronic health problems with costs that greatly exceed the maximum out of pocket limits and premium totals on any plans that existed prior to Obamacare. Many (not all) of these people have always been leeches on the system with health problems caused by lifestyle choices, and many of them previously relied entirely on emergency room care which they would very likely never pay back.

Other than that, every other person in the country ended up spending more and getting less from the healthcare industry. The healthcare industry became less personal and more bloated with expensive enforcement of regulation. Healthcare costs rose out of control as insurance companies were essentially bailed out on the losses that they took in negotiating prices with healthcare providers. Hospitals could always charge more because insurance companies would always pay it because ultimately the government would back them up on their losses. If some schmuck goes to collections on their coinsurance, no big deal because we already got the lion's share of the supposed cost from the insurance company. Suddenly, there is no more incentive to price things at a realistic level.

In the past, they would sell the debt off to collections agencies and write the loss off for tax purposes, but they still greatly preferred when people would pay their bill in full. There was a genuine pressure to keep costs to a realistic level so that people have a chance of paying what they actually owe. When you shove a $6,000+ bill in their face for a quick evaluation at the ER, suddenly it's a joke and people give up on paying. But if they have health insurance, guess what? They get that $5700 no matter what! So what do we do? Mandate health insurance!!! Absolute insanity that was destroying our country one day at a time.

Give me a break. Reciting propaganda because it actually did help?

You're the one with the propaganda with talking points to trash Obamacare. You couldnt even begin to tell me how the prior system was better or what a better plan is. Your argument is Obamacare sucks because costs but cant tell us what a better plan is. I guess letting Americans die when its completely preventable over money is a better plan.

1. So basically it worked great for people that didnt live in republican states because those idiots decided not to expand medicare making the coverage unaffordable for the low income consituents in their state.

2. People with chronic illnesses have always been a drain on the system. Either then went to the emergency room for care they couldnt pay for that ended up getting shifted to ratepayers, or they finally got insurance where the maximum out of pocket expenses were capped. At least they finally had insurance and werent getting charged the non-insured rates that the insured public would assume in rate increases.

I dont know why you think that people ended up spending more and getting less. We spent less and got a better plan with Obamacare. Before our small business was paying more for an HMO. Now we have a silver PPO we're paying $50 less for. We even added dental insurance with the savings. Rates went down again on our renewal. Obamacare actually saved our small business money. Healthcare costs were actually rising out of control before Obamacare, something you refuse to acknowledge that is reflected in all the data.

Ironically, the mandate for health insurance was a Republican idea. The only reason Obamacare mandated insurance was to please Republicans because he knew they wouldnt bite on extending Medicare to all Americans, which would have been the moral and most economic solution to the problem. The fact is Republicans had no plan that was better, all they did was trash Obamacare for 8 years. They still cant tell us what their replacement plan is and you cant say with a straight face the prior system was somehow better. You want to say I'm regurgitating propaganda? Look at you with all the same tired talking points and no solutions.

The fact is healthcare should be a human right. If we can create the worlds most technologically advanced military on the taxpayers dime, we can do the same thing for healthcare. We could save billions this very instant if we allowed Medicare to negotiate drug prices as the single largest healthcare provider in the nation.

Yes, healthcare should be a human right. As someone who needs surgeries STILL for a degenerative joint disorder, I can't afford it thanks to Obamacare. The fact that, because of my age and my marital status, I have to pay over $600 a month if I want coverage put me in the red every. single. month. Why? Because I didn't earn enough for breaks. Let me repeat: I... did... NOT... earn... ENOUGH.

It got to a point that paying for the medical flat out was less expensive.

And I still haven't gotten my surgeries that I desperately need.

So don't you fucking talk about how good Obamacare is, because you are clearly one of the people who didn't actually need it. Sit down.

Did you shop your rates on the exchange?

Did your state expand Medicare?

Based on your degenerative joint disorder, were you able to get coverage before?

I'm glad we both believe healthcare is a human right.

You are totally right on. My good friend is a low income single mom and got totally screwed by Obamacare fines. Outrageous that people would support such a program.

This comment proves that you aren't old enough to have been paying for health insurance before 2008. Obamacare literally placed limits on the amount that health insurance premiums could rise year over year.

That's a meaningless distinction without looking at the details. Yes, the premium rises were limited, but those limits became a joke going into 2017 and beyond. Again, it was sold to short-sighted people that wanted to get something right then without realizing how terrible the system would become in just a few short years.

Just like the recently passed tax plan?

That's not the worst point I've encountered here tonight, but the two situations are qualitatively different. The provisions in the tax bill that you are referring to will automatically go up for a vote to renew before they expire. Unfortunately, opposition resulted in a weaker bill than I would have liked, but we finally have some essential reforms to the totally insane tax code. If a future Congress decides to make the unpopular move and vote against renewing those cuts while keeping an otherwise sound bill, then that will be on them.

Why don't we look at the details then?

The total average family plan cost increased by 43 percent from 2008 to 2016, but it went up more than double that rate — 97 percent — from 2000 to 2008.

Source: FactCheck.org.

I challenge you to find any evidence that individual or family health insurance premiums rose more during the 10 years after Obamacare than they did during the 10 years prior.

Is that what they called it, Childrens Health Insurance? CHI? I never even noticed that. That entire administration was nothing but money laundering and graft for Chicago gangsters.

It's actually called CHIP. Then there is also SCHIP which is a supplemental program.

And of course, you make some allegation the entire administration was money laundering for Chicago gangsters. I'd ask for proof, but I know it doesnt exist.

I guess I could say the same thing about this current administration except replace Chicago with Russia. The only difference is I could prove it.

It’s CHIP. When people holler about defunding Medicaid, it’s not the fabled “welfare queen” that they are taking health care from, it’s these kids.

Ugh, all he did for me was tax me for the insurance I don't have. I don't make over 10k and the only tax I had to pay in 2016 was for "Obamacare" I didn't use. Yes, I probably qualified for an exemption, but the fact that I pay for my doctor bills (I'm healthy, don't even see the doctor once a year).

The only people The Healthcare Act helped was the insurance companies bottom line.

To be fair, even T_D hates Sessions at this point.

Or... so I've heard, anyway.

My favorite is "Zyklon" Ben Garrison comics that seem to flip on Sessions every couple weeks.

1, 2, 3, 4.

I don't get the first one. When was Sessions ever seen as a strong man of any sort?

The blogosphere will lionize anyone in Washington who stands up against the MIC/deep state. Even that weenie Harry Reid got the same treatment when he stood up against the (then failing) Iraq war.

MIC? Man in control?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military–industrial_complex

Last week he went to CA to announce the DoJ is suing CA over sanctuary cities

AH, thanks. I've been on the road too long. Missed that one.

why in your view is that bad? is he not just trying to get states to actually enforce laws

I didn't say it was bad

I apologize, I misunderstood the reason for your post, I thought you were supporting the idea that jeff sessions sucks. I would argue it is the job of the state to enforce both federal and state laws, since the states receive funding and support for the federal government. Whether federal laws should supercede state laws would have to be on a case by case basis depending on the content of laws, cause I believe there are certain powers afforded to the states by the constitution.

Everyone thinks Jeff Sessions sucks

I guess I’m no one then

Probably

First step is acceptance.

Does he always have to overlabel things? Does he think his audience is too realize the symbolism?

He's a great artist, but he overcrowds every comic. They're so noisy. You don't have to squeeze an angry Hillary into half of your comics. Like William Shakespeare said, "Keep it simple, stupid"

https://articulate-heroes.s3.amazonaws.com/8360.larson_2d00_oct_2d00_19873w2izh.gif

No, he knows a big percentage is.

“State’s Rights”

Would this be considered propaganda?

T_D hates everyone in the cabinet. They hate everyone except their daddy figure, but they can't seem to understand that Trump is the one who's appointing all these people they hate.

That’s so weird... it’s almost like it’s a sub to celebrate one particular person or something!

One reason ppl still support Trump is the media’s coverage of him. There are a million and one horrible things about Trump’s administration, but CNN et al have focused on one thing: Russia. To a Trump supporter, it can look like Trunp is just the victim of unfair attacks. If the media was not so shamefully pro-corporate, they could, for instance, cover Trump’s budget proposal in depth, and expose to the American people how corrupt and fucked up his administrstion is. They could cover the corporate ties of all the people he has appointed. And so on.

I’ve seen all of those things covered by the corporate media.

Its literally the only reason I know about them. Its not like I've been sitting in the whitehouse myself.

I think a lot of people tend to forget while they're bitching about media coverups, that the only reason they know this shit is because of the media, directly or indirectly.

Agreed. The media is far from blameless but it’s weird to say they haven’t covered things they definitely have covered.

No, my media speaks the truth. Yours is mainstream, agenda-driven garbage. I bet you didn't even know there was a gay frog problem in this country.

Yeah if you actually looked at the media you are criticizing you'd see them covering what you are accusing them of ignoring...

None of the people who say this shit have actually watched CNN in years. Half the shit they're accused of makes no sense to people who actually watch. It's funny that most of the people making these accusations give Fox a free pass.

My favorite question when I see someone shit on the "MSM" is "Where do you get your news?"

99% of the time they will dodge the question.

I don’t think you’re actually paying attention. The media does cover all those things.

The problem with this is majority people have either don't have capacity to understand sly hand of corporate corruptions or they have capacity but don't have patience to go through the details. Think about two or three degree separated corporate donations, thousands of dollars paid for the corporate talk shows. Again this applies for both sides of the aisle.

Never trust.

plugs ears na na na na CNN only covers Russia na na na na na na na na na fake news na na na na na na na na enemies of the people na na na na na na

unplugs ears CNN should cover other topics

more than 90% of news regarding Trump are negative. Do Obama get 90% of negative news? During Obama era, how many corporate news outlets is sucking Obama's dick compare to how many news outlet is sucking Trump's dick. The only reason that I believe Trump might be the guy is because of all these negative news from corporate media and Hollywood opposing him. They love Trump when he just a reality star but hate Trump to the bone when he became the president of the United States.

It make you think why the media and Hollywood is on the war path to take down Trump. Is it because Trump is not their guy?

since this sub reddit is /r/conspiracy. Do you guys even think about why so many media is giving free blow job to Obama but Trump is not "presidential" because Trump say shits that you don't like?

I'm not a Trump supporter and didn't vote for either but it really make me think why Trump is so hated after he won and the hate is all generated by the media.

He’s been this way his entire life. Have you people been living under a rock or something?

There's article after article going back to the 70s-80s documenting Trump's idiocy.

Not everyone paid attention to politics much before this shitstorm. Some people need to catch up and it's best to let them because the more people that understand this the better. It's better to help people than shoot them down for not knowing what you might know.

Trump wasn’t even IN politics until relatively recently and he was famous for decades as a scumbag huckster racist asshole.

Not everyone paid attention to Trump before this either.

Well, have you ever heard of the Brooklyn Bridge before?

No?

Let me tell you about this bridge that I own that I'd like to sell you.

You see the problem here?

Paid attention to/heard of are two very different things.

If one of them ran for president I'd pay more attention

if you payed attention to trump how did you not see him for what he was then?

I did. I didn't vote for that fuck nut.

mb, your comments sounded like it

Fuck no. That dude could have a heart attack now and I wouldn't give 2 fucks. What about my comments made you think I voted for that chucklefuck?

My point is that you apparently did no research at all and just threw your support behind the guy with the cheapest hats and fanciest toilet.

Look man I want to be nice and thank you for realizing you were on the losing side, and I will say those things

but you need to understand what a fucking idiot you are, reassess the way you approach decisions like this, and do everything you can to never make a mistake like this in the future.

It's great whenever an alcoholic realizes he needs help but if that epiphany comes after he T-bones a minivan full of kids, then it's a little fucking late.

Do better next time.

Thank you for being honest.

It's great whenever an alcoholic realizes he needs help but if that epiphany comes after he T-bones a minivan full of kids, then it's a little fucking late.

kek

i mean that’s not entirely true... he’s been a local political figure here in new york for almost two decades. he regularly talked politics and shopped running for mayor

Grew up in the NYC Metro area and was aware of the charlatan back in the early 80's. He hasn't changed at all, it's just gotten worse.

Yeah, I think about that sometimes. NY'er's are well versed that he's a con man that people watch like a car crash. It had to have hit just a little harder when he got elected.

LOL, there's a reason American banks stopped lending him money. It's because they realized he was full of shit decades ago. If only the rest of America had realized this.

Yeah. The trail was laid indeed. And poor folks voting for a rich (con) man is a one of the oldest tricks there is...

You realize that people have different political beliefs right? Jeff sessions would not deter everyone.

Jeff Sessions alone should be enough to disillusion them.

I honestly have no idea how this little turd didn't signal the end of support from Libertarians and young GOPers.

To me DeVos is the one who seems to get the most bullshit, but Sessions is just absolutely vile. The War on Drugs, Private Prisons, asset forfeiture? All the favorite awful failed policies.

How could you adamantly support him? Please tell me how he wasn't scum from the get-go.

I don’t know how this administration could still be supported by anyone

Has any administration in your lifetime really done a good job of serving the middle class?

I don’t know how this administration could still be supported by anyone

The Trump Administration is fantastic for wealthy Americans and American corporations. Since it's the wealthy who control the flow of information in the media, they use media outlets such as Fox News and Breitbart to convince poor voters that the Trump Administration is fighting for them.

Also, the economy is doing well. When it stops doing so well.. Well, there'll be a reckoning.

What if I told you that you can support some things Trump does and not others?

That can be said of any president. Obama doing these things would have been chaos, to conservatives. Likewise, trump doing the things Obama did would have been chaos to liberals.

Trump doing the things Obama did would objectively be less chaotic.

Trump wearing a tan suit while asking for dijon mustard? You don't see the absolute chaos in that?

AKA, every presidential election winner ever, everywhere.

Lots of first timers out there.

This exactly.

It blows my mind how many people don't understand what the phrase wishy-washy is. How many seemed surprised by posturing or empty promises.

It's ok though. The first time the tooth fairy doesn't show up it sucks. The next time it's just another tooth.

I'd like to pretend things will mellow after Trump is out, but it really feels like interwebs and media have turned politics into a blood sport.

58 percent of adult Reddit users were aged 18 to 29. A lot of people don't have the life experience. They only know Obama and Trump, and that's okay. Everyone learns eventually that they're all liars and snakes.

Trump lies pretty much every time he speaks. They may be smaller lies, or lies by omission of context, but they're lies nonetheless.

To expect any kind of honesty after he lies about so many provable and trivial things is absurd.

Can you tell me which specific lies you have in mind? I've never gotten a good answer on this. Every example I've ever been pointed to is not really a lie when you look at the details for more than a few seconds.

He started right off the bat with his inauguration claims. Then the constant boasting that the electoral college is rigged against republicans. Those are the glaring examples off the top of my head, because they were proven false and yet he continues to repeat them.

He lied about his contacts/investments with Russia during the campaign, which is a pretty big deal.

He lied about releasing his tax returns after winning the election.

He lied about his role in the release of the basketball players that were caught shoplifting in China.

He lied about hiring, "The best people" - his staff turnover is historically high.

He lied about having a plan to repeal and replace Obamacare (on day one).

The lies are constant, even if they're small, like using over-exaggeration and hyperbole, like today's tweet:

California’s sanctuary policies are illegal and unconstitutional and put the safety and security of our entire nation at risk. Thousands of dangerous & violent criminal aliens are released as a result of sanctuary policies, set free to prey on innocent Americans. THIS MUST STOP!

If we don’t have a wall system, we’re not going to have a country. Congress must fund the BORDER WALL & prohibit grants to sanctuary jurisdictions that threaten the security of our country & the people of our country. We must enforce our laws & protect our people!

I mean this shit is ridiculous coming from the sitting president. There's a reason politicians have to be careful with their words, or at least there used to be.

Most of the time his dishonesty is just him spouting his hyperbolic opinion, which he uses to rile up his base and divide the country. He's doing so using the office the President, so we must hold his statements to the highest standard. Sadly, this makes it seem like people are nitpicking and picking on him, but in reality it's just holding him to the same standard as any other politician.

Then there's the hypocrisy - many of the things he criticized Obama for (on Twitter, so it's easy to prove), he's doing to a larger extent. His hypocrisy with golfing is glaring, and hypocrisy is a form of lying.

He started right off the bat with his inauguration claims.

Even fucking Snopes can't call that one a lie, and you KNOW they would if they could prove it. They call it "Unproven" for like 50 different reasons. However, in reality, it's VERY LIKELY that more people watched his inauguration, both here and around the globe, simply because the internet is so much more widespread than it was four or eight years ago.

Then the constant boasting that the electoral college is rigged against republicans.

Again, how is this a lie? He made an off-hand jest about how it's hard on Republicans when Democrats get such a big advantage with California. This is true. Republicans do have to win votes in a wider geographic area because most Democrats are concentrated in California and other major population centers like New York.

He lied about his contacts/investments with Russia during the campaign, which is a pretty big deal.

Give me the specifics. I think you're getting mixed up on two things. One is that President-elect Trump rightfully and legally made contact with the Russians and many other foreign leaders during the transition period. The other is that there is no proof that Donald Trump was instructing communication or even aware that communication was happening, for example in the case of George Popadopoulos. Really, the devil is in the details, so let's see them. You can't claim a lie without providing details. Surely you know that.

He lied about releasing his tax returns after winning the election.

First of all, he has complied with legal requirements on financial disclosures. Second of all, he may still release these tax returns. You may not like the way he is handling this, but once again it's false, or at best premature, to call this a lie.

He lied about his role in the release of the basketball players that were caught shoplifting in China.

Do you have an update on this story? Were they not facing up to ten years in jail under Chinese law?

He lied about hiring, "The best people" - his staff turnover is historically high.

First of all, your opinions don't factor into whether or not something is a lie. How is having a high turnover rate a lie? He was upfront about this from the beginning! He always said that he was going to keep most Obama-era Federal employees on during the transition until a complete review could be done, and many of them were then replaced. This is what Donald Trump is famous for. Have you ever heard of The Apprentice? There is another layer to this as well, because he spoke and written about planning his administration in stages. He wants certain people for certain stages and then replaces them for the next stage. You may not like that, but how the fuck is that a lie?

He lied about having a plan to repeal and replace Obamacare (on day one).

Literally on day one, he signed an executive order explicitly instructing Federal employees to do everything in their power to mitigate penalties and burdens associated with Obamacare. His American Healthcare Act was ready to go almost immediately. It failed to pass by one vote. Again, not a lie.

The lies are constant, even if they're small, like using over-exaggeration and hyperbole, like today's tweet:

The only part of that tweet that is possibly hyperbolic is the "If we don't have a wall system, we're not going to have a country." However, not really a lie if he believes the underlying sentiment behind that hypothetical to be true.

Most of the time his dishonesty is just him spouting his hyperbolic opinion, which he uses to rile up his base and divide the country. He's doing so using the office the President, so we must hold his statements to the highest standard. Sadly, this makes it seem like people are nitpicking and picking on him, but in reality it's just holding him to the same standard as any other politician.

I don't think this is fair. Most of the nitpicking that I see appears to be intentional misrepresentation of reasonable statements. Like the gun control issue where people spread a lie that he said he wanted to take everyone's guns. I think the people calling him a liar are the ones who are not being careful. People are mistaking things they dislike about the President with factual lies.

Then there's the hypocrisy - many of the things he criticized Obama for (on Twitter, so it's easy to prove), he's doing to a larger extent. His hypocrisy with golfing is glaring, and hypocrisy is a form of lying.

We have to be careful here too. I was told he was a hypocrite for signing more Executive Orders than any previous administration. As it turns out, the vast majority of those were simply overturning past Executive Orders. Oops! No hypocrisy. Regarding golfing, it really comes down to a question of whether Trump he thinks he is doing a better job overall (obviously, he does think that). From his perspective, he could taunt Obama by calling him out for golfing when he was doing such a terrible job as President. Then he would take it a step further and wish that all he would do is golf rather than making terrible decisions as President. That's his opinion. On the other hand, Trump is working extremely hard as President, by all accounts, this much is fact. It's a matter of opinion whether or not you believe he is doing a better job. Even if he plays golf frequently, it is still very likely that he is putting more hours into the job than his predecessor. That's just the way Trump operates and always has. He's a workaholic and balances it out with golf as a recreation. However, it's not just a recreation for Trump, as we can see in countless pictures he is always out golfing with politicians and foreign visitors. Many people have said that the most important deals are made on the golf course. Having his "second White House" literally on a golf resort makes that particularly easy.

I don't even care about the golf issue much. Maybe he was hypocritical, maybe he shouldn't have made such a fuss about golfing if he was going to golf a lot. Sure. I get that. But, in my estimation, the biggest lie of all is the notion that he lies constantly. It's really easy to read a list like yours and have a knee-jerk reaction, but if we're being honest the provable, factual lies are practically non-existent.

Again, how is this a lie? He made an off-hand jest about how it's hard on Republicans when Democrats get such a big advantage with California. This is true. Republicans do have to win votes in a wider geographic area because most Democrats are concentrated in California and other major population centers like New York.

He continuously stated it about the entire country, not just California. The only reason he won is because of the electoral college.

Give me the specifics. I think you're getting mixed up on two things. One is that President-elect Trump rightfully and legally made contact with the Russians and many other foreign leaders during the transition period.

He lied about the Trump corporation's business dealings in Russia during the campaign. He said they have nothing to do with Russia, which was clearly a lie.

Literally on day one, he signed an executive order explicitly instructing Federal employees to do everything in their power to mitigate penalties and burdens associated with Obamacare. His American Healthcare Act was ready to go almost immediately. It failed to pass by one vote. Again, not a lie.

This is not what he said on the campaign, but i'll give that it's just another example of a politician making promises he can't keep. Too bad he was too arrogant about how he would easily find a solution for it.

Most of the nitpicking that I see appears to be intentional misrepresentation of reasonable statements.

This is why politicians are careful with their words - they are responsible for how reasonable people can interpret their words. It may be a 'misinterpretation' to you, but all that matters is if a reasonable person could interpret his statement in a way. Trump seems to intentionally make statements that can be interpreted in many ways, some of them nefarious.

On the other hand, Trump is working extremely hard as President, by all accounts, this much is fact.

How is this a fact? Everything we've heard about his schedule is amateur hour.

Even if he plays golf frequently, it is still very likely that he is putting more hours into the job than his predecessor. That's just the way Trump operates and always has. He's a workaholic and balances it out with golf as a recreation.

This is straight bullshit. I don't really care that much about golfing either, it's the hypocrisy.

Many people have said that the most important deals are made on the golf course. Having his "second White House" literally on a golf resort makes that particularly easy.

You've drunken the kool-aid.

hmm, well now that you got a nice detailed response I hope we can trust you will never make this claim again.

His "detailed response" was exactly the same crap we see pushed around everywhere. Not a single one of those is a lie if you bother to look at the details critically.

How about the lie that Donald Trump is a billionaire? He's not. This article explains some of his dealings with Deutsche Bank, which prove his lack of solvency. Moreover, you should know, Deutsche Bank is not a bank that actual New York real estate tycoons do serious business with. Those big players, the Bloombergs and the Dursts and such, they deal with bigger, much more established banks like Mellon and Merchants. The big established banks in NY won't touch Donald Trump because his businesses lose too much money and Trump never pays it back, going bankrupt instead. If someone loans you money, you promise to pay it back. If you never intended to actually pay it back, you fucking lied. If you borrowed 100 bucks from me, then you refuse to pay it back and when you borrowed it you hid the fact that you never could actually pay it back, you lied to me.

Also, Trump University was a big fucking lie. In fact, there's a legal term for that sort of lie, it's called fraud. Why would you pay $25 million in settlements for fraud when you supposedly didnt lie? (Also, wasn't he the guy that said he never settled? Another lie.)

I'm copying below some details on Trump's bankruptcies from WaPo.

Trump’s companies have filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection, which means a company can remain in business while wiping away many of its debts. The bankruptcy court ultimately approves a corporate budget and a plan to repay remaining debts; often shareholders lose much of their equity.

Trump’s Taj Mahal opened in April 1990 in Atlantic City, but six months later, “defaulted on interest payments to bondholders as his finances went into a tailspin,” The Washington Post’s Robert O’Harrow found. In July 1991, Trump’s Taj Mahal filed for bankruptcy. He could not keep up with debts on two other Atlantic City casinos, and those two properties declared bankruptcy in 1992. A fourth property, the Plaza Hotel in New York, declared bankruptcy in 1992 after amassing debt.

PolitiFact uncovered two more bankruptcies filed after 1992, totaling six. Trump Hotels and Casinos Resorts filed for bankruptcy again in 2004, after accruing about $1.8 billion in debt. Trump Entertainment Resorts also declared bankruptcy in 2009, after being hit hard during the 2008 recession.

Why the discrepancy? Perhaps this will give us an idea: Trump told Washington Post reporters that he counted the first three bankruptcies as just one.

You've gotten plenty of good answers. You just choose not to believe them.

Yeah, I choose not to believe something is a lie when it is factually not a lie. I guess I should just give up and accept that Donald Trump is a liar because people don't like him and really, really want to believe that he is the biggest liar ever.

If only someone could point to a single, clear example of a factually verifiable lie.

Yes, you should accept he's a liar. You can keep on supporting him, but just know that you're supporting an extremely dishonest man whose word means nothing. Personally, I don't support people like that, but you do you.

If you can show me a single clear example of a factually verifiable lie, then I will take all of this back right now. Here's a hint. If you have to twist his statement or twist the meaning of the word lie, then it's not a lie.

No you won't. You'll cling to technicalities and torture semantics within an inch of its life because you don't want to admit you're wrong.

Here's another possibility. You have been so brainwashed by mainstream media propaganda that you have convinced yourself of reality which is itself a lie. When somebody is caught in a lie, it is a fairly black and white matter. If he is not actually been caught in a lie in that sense, then it is a baseless attack against his character to claim that he lies all the time.

No, "reality is itself a lie" is not a possibility. Try to stay here with me in this dimension.

By any reasonable definition of the word "liar," Donald Trump is a liar. This is a fact. He had a reputation as a liar long before he ever ran for office. Want to know why? Because he lies a lot. People who lie a lot are liars.

I think I'm starting to understand the problem. You don't even seem to realize that you literally just twisted my words into something qualitatively different than what I actually said. That actually explains a lot about this whole conversation. That is the explanation for about 90% of the supposed Trump lies that I have been shown.

Just so you are aware, having a reputation for being a liar is not the same thing as being a liar. This is a classic logical fallacy.

You know a lot of people with reputations as liars who don't lie a lot? That kind of stigma doesn't materialize out of thin air.

I've tried to refrain from doing this, because you're programmed to disbelieve anything negative about Trump, especially something from the MSM, but here's a bigass list.. Have at it.

It's remarkable what is happening right now. How could I be programmed to disbelieve anything negative about Trump when almost all media is negative about Trump? Unless you mean it's because I see provably false attacks against him every single day. The natural consequence of that is to distrust further attacks against him, sure.

Literally every single thing I have read in that list is bullshit, by the way, and it's not even hard to see if you set your bias aside for 2 seconds.

1. He was not for the Iraq war. Misrepresentation of his words. They attacked him about this during the debates and any thinking person could see the deceitful strategy at play.
   
2. Sometimes he takes a guess about something which he doesn't remember precisely and he gets the details wrong. He probably should be careful not to do that kind of off-the-cuff thing, but it's just not the same thing as a lie. This comment applies to almost half of these "lies". You can tell he's doing this because he always uses language like "I guess" or "I think". He's actually being honest about the fact that he's not certain about what he's about to say. That's not how lies work.
   
3. The jury is still out on illegal voting and voter fraud and the issue has been elevated to DHS because the state-level panel did find sufficient evidence to warrant further investigation.
   
4. Multiple situations where they say it's a lie because there is no evidence to support what he is saying when in fact there is also no evidence to suggest the he is lying. For example: no evidence of paid protesters. Give me a fucking break. That story will break soon enough. It's not a lie when you may still be proven right. An unproven claim is not a lie, no matter how much you think he is wrong.
   
5. Multiple situations where the opinion of the writer differs from the opinion of the President and they call that a lie. Fuck this noise. You realize this is an opinion article, right?
   

I could go on and on. This is outright delusional. It's like people are losing their minds and just looking desperately for anything to back up their irrational hatred for Donald Trump.

All I'm asking you to do is keep an open mind. When the mainstream media works this hard to attack someone, you might want to consider the possibility that there is a good reason for it. If you think it's because they have journalistic integrity, then I don't think we can get anywhere in this conversation.

Here you go.

Another situation where he literally says "I guess..." which indicates that he's not sure about what he's about to say. Sure, he should probably be more careful about making off-the-cuff statements like that, but he is always honest about this uncertainty.

What, you think he looked up on Wikipedia right before that and thought, "Hehehe, nobody will catch me if I lie about this verifiable piece of information"? Anyway, in context, he was talking about Republican victories, so it was yet another mistake to bring up Obama. I won't accuse that young reporter of lying by intentionally ignoring the context of the discussion to make Trump appear more incorrect. But, Trump overlooked H.W., that's a fact. Otherwise, what he said would have been correct.

where he literally says "I guess..."

So is your argument that something is never a lie of you preface it with “I guess”? Is that really how far gone you are?

off-the-cuff statements like that,

This is a press conference that he prepared talking points for.....

Anyway, in context, he was talking about Republican victories

Then why did he only clarify that after being called out?

Regardless, in context, he wasn’t. Full paragraph:

I'm here following through on what I pledged to do. That's all I'm doing. I put it out before the American people, got 306 electoral college votes. I wasn't supposed to get 222. They said there's no way to get 222. 230 is impossible. 270, which you need — that was laughable. We got 306. Because people came out and voted like they have never seen before. So that's how it goes. I guess it was the biggest electoral college win since Ronald Reagan. In other words, the media is trying to attack our administration because they know we are following through on pledges that we made, and they are not happy about it for whatever reason

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2017/02/16/click-for-a-full-transcript-of-trumps-first-solo-press-conference.html

So would you admit that you just lied there?

won't accuse that young reporter of lying by intentionally ignoring the context

You mean staying verifiable facts?

And, again, he didn’t ignore context. Can you show me the context from the full transcript I provided?

But, Trump overlooked H.W., that's a fact. Otherwise, what he said would have been correct.

So if you ignore reality he was correct?

Ok, from the same clip, he said the following:

“I'm here following through on what I pledged to do. That's all I'm doing. I put it out before the American people, got 306 electoral college votes. I wasn't supposed to get 222. They said there's no way to get 222. 230 is impossible. 270, which you need — that was laughable. We got 306. “

He only had 304. So is that a big old mistake too or a lie?

By virtue of intent, it was clearly an honest mistake.

Why are you assuming his intent?

The missing context here is that he had similar recent discussions regarding the difficulty of a Republican electoral victory. "They said..." is referring to MSM analysis and commentary which incorrectly predicted his loss. The numbers he was throwing out were examples of what we're the best case scenario for him. You are correct that I made a mistake here as well (didn't I just say mistakes happen?). Around the same time he made similar boasts which were explicitly focused on the difficulties faced by Republicans due to the big electoral advantage of California. His point was that Republicans have to campaign in a much larger number of states. In this context, he was rather unclear, I agree. I have been posting from a phone this afternoon, so my apologies for not checking that more carefully. I appreciate your attention to detail; a welcome change from nearly everyone in this conversation.

However, I stand by the fact that all of these inconsistencies were mistakes fueled by the excitement of the moment and his unexpected win. I base that off of the fact that the alternative is absolutely ludicrous. Nobody would intentionally lie about something so easy to verify. He was obviously thrown off for a moment and taken in excitement. The "I guess..." Is a clear sign that he is not speaking from a place of confidence. Mistakes happen. I won't discount that. He said "Opama" instead of "Obama" in his SOTU. Nobody is perfect, but I see no evidence that he is in the habit of telling lies.

You're hopeless and everything this sub stands against ideologically- you'd support Pol Pot if you were born in Cambodia in the 60s. Seriously how do you live with yourself when you've delegated all truthseeking to a stranger whose transparently a huckster? Name a day of his presidency or his campaign, I'll show you a lie from it.

Name a day of his presidency or his campaign, I'll show you a lie from it.

Alright. Yesterday, 3/13/18.

http://www.politifact.com/california/statements/2018/mar/13/donald-trump/no-mr-president-california-not-begging-wall/

That's more than a bit weak. They basically couldn't figure out what he meant. Obviously the Democratic leadership of California isn't begging for the wall because they want to secure the Hispanic vote and perhaps they even want illegal immigrants to vote for them. They call it "taco bowl engagement" (language used by the DNC, not my own).

However, California law enforcement, border patrol agents in particular, have a very different perspective on the matter. He spent the entire visit speaking directly to border patrol agents and officers asking what they need to secure the border and then makes your quoted statement in that context. It was incredibly easy to understand what he meant by his statement. The Democratic leadership and Politifact are "mystified" because Trump was not speaking to them. If anything he was taking a sarcastic jab at the leadership while relaying the message of the people putting their lives on the line every day.

I'm sorry, but that wasn't a lie. It's called trolling. You're going to have to use your own critical thinking here. Whether or not Politifact says "pants on fire" is not a metric for whether or not something is a lie.

“The State of California is begging us to build a wall.” “The state” can either mean a majority of the populace, or the government, both of whom are deeply against the wall. It’s a lie so obvious it doesn’t bear analysis. Do you know what a lie is?

Sorry, but state border patrol agents also speak on behalf of the State of California, and they do want the wall. This is another example of Trump bypassing the corrupt leadership and speaking directly to the people who matter in the conversation.

He didn't say border patrol agents he said "the State."

state border patrol agents also speak on behalf of the State of California

Objectively, facially, transparently incorrect. That's like saying anesthesiologists speak on behalf of New York. Firefighters speak on behalf of Alabama. Dogwalkers speak on behalf of Oregon. No they don't. "The State" means the majority, or the leadership. You're wrong. Deep down you know you're wrong. You just don't care, compliance with big Trump is more important than coherence. You're a fascist slave.

You had an opportunity to make a real argument and then went off the deep end. Obviously state law enforcement agents speak on behalf of their state more so than dogwalkers or anesthesiologists. Border patrol agents are not just licensed by the state, they are legal conduits for state authorized action such as arrest and detention. Law enforcement are part of state government. They are the lowly nuts and bolts of the state, and the system would collapse without them. This is how Trump trolls the media and you have to admit it's kind of funny.

You're a fascist slave.

You call me a slave while Donald Trump is the first politician I have ever seen take a strong public stand against the fascist mind control mainstream media. He doesn't get every detail right and he is an unapologetic troll, but the claim that he is some kind of fascist is hilariously unrealistic.

You had an opportunity to make a real argument and then went off the deep end. Obviously state law enforcement agents speak on behalf of their state more so than dogwalkers or anesthesiologists. Border patrol agents are not just licensed by the state, they are legal conduits for state authorized action such as arrest and detention. Law enforcement is part of state government. They are the lowly nuts and bolts of the state, and the system would collapse without them.

Border patrol agents are federal so that's all wrong and wouldn't mean anything if it were right. It's still wrong to say "the State." One profession is never "the state" that's an openly nonsensical statement.

They are the lowly nuts and bolts of the state, and the system would collapse without them. This is how Trump trolls the media and you have to admit it's kind of funny.

"The President said a wrong thing on purpose to "trigger" people! Tomorrow he's gonna declare himself a life term to troll libruls! Hilarious!"

You call me a slave while Donald Trump is the first politician I have ever seen take a strong public stand against the fascist mind control mainstream media. He doesn't get every detail right and he is an unapologetic troll, but the claim that he is some kind of fascist is hilariously unrealistic.

I'm sure your favorite russian conspiracy blog told you that.

Border patrol agents are federal so that's all wrong

You're right about this, of course, but make no mistake that California law enforcement want the wall, particularly near the border. Listen to the full context of that quote:

https://youtu.be/YivPbYanetA?t=9m13s

There is more to that statement than meets the eye. There is a lot of truth to what he is saying.

So a lie is only a lie when it isn’t in service of your preconceived notions

I'm saying it's not clear whether or not it was a lie. How do we know the Democratic leadership are being truthful? They have a major law enforcement crisis on their hands. Who knows what the State government is actually discussing with DHS? Maybe they really do need a wall in certain areas, as the President claims. They sure as hell aren't going to admit that publicly because it's politically unpopular in their state.

So based on absolutely nothing except your will to worship big trumper, they’re secretly begging... for something they’re fighting tooth and nail against... that would do nothing... for a problem you claim exists without citation...? You’d sooner believe that than that the guy who lies every day lies again. Yeah. Fascist slave. Not really a person so much as a meat puppet on a spine. Dance, monkey.

that would do nothing... for a problem you claim exists without citation...

I see where you are coming from now, if that's what you think about border security. In the video I just linked to you moments ago, a 25 year veteran of US Border Patrol explained how dramatically they transformed the region by putting up a scrap metal wall. Both sides of the border became safer. He literally described it as a "chaotic environment" before the wall. People were afraid to live anywhere near the border until they put up a wall and "reestablished law and order". This is a scrap metal wall that they can easily cut holes through and climb over, and still it is that important.

Removed. Rule 10.

And what about his constantly saying 306? More nerves even though he said it in other instances other than this?

Nobody would intentionally lie about something so easy to verify.

So what you’re saying is that he’s not a liar, he is just so massively incompetent he can’t even do basic fact checking before he makes a press conference to the world?

but I see no evidence that he is in the habit of telling lies.

Well you’re making obvious excuses like you’re the victim of domestic abuse, it’s pretty clear why you don’t see it.

I think it was a whirlwind time for him in a lot of ways. All efforts were put towards planning his administration and he was the recipient of a great deal of new information which is shared only with the new President. I think he made a couple of public missteps during this time, but his mind was on to more important matters. We see the fruits of this consideration coming to bear in North Korea already.

Well you’re making obvious excuses like you’re the victim of domestic abuse

The only people I see acting abusively in this story are people like you who are unable to give Trump fair consideration and have irrational hatred towards those who do.

Still avoiding the question about 306?

I think it was a whirlwind time for him in a lot of ways.

Yet he still, after a year, makes these “mistakes”?

What’s that called when you’re constantly making “mistakes” and repeating false information?

fruits of this consideration coming to bear in North Korea already.

Lol, Kim has been wanting to sit down with a US president for years, it gives him legitimacy and he can say that he made the US “crawl to the negotiating table”.

give Trump fair consideration and have irrational hatred

I’ve given him fair consideration, I just call lies as I see them and call out those that make excuses. Here is a massive list of his lies with annotated sources proving they are lies: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/23/opinion/trumps-lies.html

Still avoiding the question about 306?

No, that was exactly the point of my last comment. He made some mistakes with ultimately irrelevant numbers while being quite preoccupied with building his cabinet and planning his administration.

Yet he still, after a year, makes these “mistakes”?

The evidence you provided was from February 2017, shortly after inauguration. Did you just make a mistake or do you have evidence that he continues to say 306 a year later?

Lol, Kim has been wanting to sit down with a US president for years, it gives him legitimacy and he can say that he made the US “crawl to the negotiating table”.

Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0xEoKRHRi4

You're so far off base. He is treating this situation so much differently than the past several administrations. He told Kim in no uncertain terms that he has one last chance to wise up and cut the bullshit or they are going to fucking kill him where he stands before he can blink. Past administrations focused on PR and sent food to the regime. The only person crawling to the negotiating table is Kim, as he begs for his life, and he will give up all power in the process. A dramatic victory without bloodshed. Just wait and see how wrong you are.

Here is a massive list of his lies with annotated sources proving they are lies:

More propaganda which I already addressed here:

https://np.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/84541j/we_were_sold_a_lie/dvnyudw/

Actually, propaganda is too strong of a word for a shitty NYT opinion piece.

made some mistakes with ultimately irrelevant numbers

He stated it on multiple occasions outside of this speech. What do you call repeating something that is not true?

Did you just make a mistake

You said this was “another example of him saying I guess” meaning he has done that multiple times, right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0xEoKRHRi4

Already seen it. My point stands.

The only person crawling to the negotiating table is Kim, as he begs for his life, and he will give up all power in the process.

Or he’ll nuke a city and kill millions.

Just wait and see how wrong you are.

He’s unable to pass healthcare with his party in power in Congress, I’ve already seen how “great” his negotiating skills are.

propaganda is too strong of a word for a shitty NYT *opinion piece

Can’t attack the argument so you attack the source? Nice.

He stated it on multiple occasions outside of this speech. What do you call repeating something that is not true?

Hang the fuck on. If we're going to quibble over details, then you should address the detail I just called you on. Did he claim 306 or get other electoral details wrong a year after the election, or not? The example you gave was from February 2017. Did he continue to make that mistake months later or not? You claimed that he did.

I'll admit that he fumbled the numbers pretty badly that day. We all have our stupid moments. That's perhaps the worst one I have seen from Trump's presidency. Still, not a lie, which was the premise of this entire thread.

Can’t attack the argument so you attack the source? Nice.

Actually my main attack was the fact that it is an opinion piece, which are not written by serious journalists or vetted by editors to the same level as a legitimate news piece. An opinion piece from any source is not very good evidence to bring to a discussion.

Don't get distracted by my last paragraph. I want to know what you meant by:

Yet he still, after a year, makes these “mistakes”?

Admit you mistook the year of the event in question, or else explain what you meant. If you can't do either of those, don't even bother responding.

then you should address the detail I just called you on.

You misunderstand a comment is not me mistaking a detail. He is still saying things that need to be explained by you and his supporters over a year later.

Did he claim 306

He claimed 306, Conway claimed 306 Spicer claimed 306, did they all have jitters?

Still, not a lie,

What do you call repeating false information?

the fact that it is an opinion piece, which are not written by serious journalists

It has sources backing up every claim.....

But here is a non opinion one: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/fact-checker/wp/2018/01/20/president-trump-made-2140-false-or-misleading-claims-in-his-first-year/

vetted by editors

Trump should probably get one of those for his twitter and statements, huh?

Admit you mistook the year of the event

What? He gets caught in lies constantly, yet you’ll still find ways to explain them away.

Here is one from the other month fact checking his speech full of lies: https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.nytimes.com/2018/02/24/us/trump-cpac-speech-factcheck.amp.html

You do know that Trump did actually win 306 electoral votes in the election, right?

Lol, it’s 304:

https://www.270towin.com/2016_Election/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2016

https://www.270towin.com/maps/2016-actual-electoral-map

Did Trump win 304 or 306 electoral votes? Trump won states (and one district in Maine) worth 306 electoral votes (this map). However, two Texas electors did not cast their actual ballots for him, so history will record Trump as winning 304 electoral votes.

Can’t claim an electoral vote if electoral delegates don’t vote for you.

No, it's actually a perfectly reasonable distinction. He won 306 electoral votes in the election. I didn't say he got 306 electoral votes because he got 304 electoral votes. But he did win 306 electoral votes in the election. Every example of people saying 306 comes down to the highly unusual faithless electors.

He won 306 electoral votes in the election.

He didn’t, because he did not get the votes. Nothing in our electoral process says the electoral college has to vote for the person that got the popular vote in that state, it’s the whole point of the electoral college. Come on, this is civics 101 and another example of you deploying mental gymnastics to defend trump.

But he did win 306 electoral votes

You can’t win a vote till it’s cast, can you?

From November 8th to December 19th, the number was 306. Everyone talked about 306. They are called "pledged delegates" and he won 306 pledged delegates. I know how the electoral college works. Many states do have laws preventing faithless electors, others do not. Regardless, it is highly unusual for delegates to go against the pledged votes won in their state.

So yes, he won 306 electoral votes according to the will of the people. He received 304 due to a political stunt. Not a big deal. The point is there is an obvious reason for the confusion over that number.

From November 8th to December 19th

And that press conference was when? Mid January.

he won 306 electoral votes according to the will of the people.

By the same logic Clinton won the ejection due to the will of the people by getting the most votes. But that’s not how our process goes, so she didn’t and trump only received 304 electoral votes.

due to a political stunt.

It’s due to our electoral process. Again, you can’t claim a vote you did not receive.

obvious reason for the confusion

That trump is easily confused or that he’s clinging to those two extra votes?

Or that he didn’t face check just like he didn’t with the Reagan crap?

Yes, he's clinging to those 2 extra votes because he had just spent more than a month being congratulated on his 306 pledged delegates. Obviously the result is what it is: 304. But it's a perfectly understandable thing to bring up 306 later on. That doesn't make it a lie. I could see an argument for petty, but I don't think he made a big fuss about it. Either way, it was not a lie.

but I don't think he made a big fuss about it.

Except to brag that it was the biggest electoral win since Reagan when it was obviously not?

Either way, it was not a lie.

It’s just not the truth and not reality?

Kudos for sticking with that conversation for so long. After exchanging about 4 comments with that guy, I threw in the towel. It was just too pathetic.

Goddamn. Do you have zero self respect or what? I mean lmao how pathetic.

This is a list that only goes from january 2016 to november 2016.

But how about something worse than a lie? How about an incident in which several executives of Trump's casinos died while he was going bankrupt? Their deaths meant they couldn't testify against him to a grand jury probe.

Trump was selected, they wanted him president. Once you realize that...

Any sources to support this claim? Genuinely curious.

Just the source of conspiracy that our votes don't count and TPTB wouldn't let anyone run the country that they didn't deem fit for their agenda...

I guess we could look back to 2012 and Grover Norquist's CPAC speech where he outlined what the GOP wanted from a leader; this was in reference to having bite the bullet and go for Romney, but as a line of thought it's easily applicable to the current incumbent, certainly in terms of getting the Ryan budget passed.

All we have to do is replace Obama. ... We are not auditioning for fearless leader. We don't need a president to tell us in what direction to go. We know what direction to go. We want the Ryan budget. ... We just need a president to sign this stuff. We don't need someone to think it up or design it. The leadership now for the modern conservative movement for the next 20 years will be coming out of the House and the Senate.

The requirement for president?

Pick a Republican with enough working digits to handle a pen to become president of the United States. This is a change for Republicans: the House and Senate doing the work with the president signing bills. His job is to be captain of the team, to sign the legislation that has already been prepared.

This is a comforting conspiracy theory, as it suggests the support that was enough to get him elected is much less and not a reflection of the current state of the world. Woot woot Deep State!

He was the perfect candidate. Proved voting matters, got us all angry at each other, distractions left and right, threw a stick in the spokes of any legitimate conspiracy theory. Internet was getting out of control and information was spreading too wide.

Easiest way to control a population is to make them think they're free. They got a slow boil going and we're bitching about whose got more space in the pot.

The main reason this is downvoted is because it goes against the shill narrative that /r/conspiracy is T_D 2.0, but I'm sure a few donald supporters also downvoted, just out of habit.

I'm not denying it, because /r/politics is now bought by corporations who have closed that sub to non-corporate sources. Combine that with an American public dumb enough to think Trump is anti-establishment and there you go! But if they are at all literate, this sub will soon disavow them of all partisan loyalty.

Also I will personally make it up and slant this whole fucking thing to the left.

Thanks I can't stand when it's leaning to one side, my pencils roll right off the desk

This post has over 1000 upvotes. Your point is irrelevant.

Do you honestly think hillary would have been better?

I don't think that's OP's point. But if that's the road we are taking Bernie might have been.

Yes. For fucks sake yes. This stupid counter needs to end. Everyone who ran would have been better than Trump except Ted Cruz. Give me a spineless President Rubio, or an ineffectual Sanders, or a boring Kasich, or a completely predictable Clinton episode 3 over the perpetual shitshow that is the current Administration. ANYONE would have done a much better job.

Think what you will about Trump but for the last time, this sub isn’t the Donald 2.0.

Either you know that because you comment here regularly and can clearly see the Shareblue brigades or you are just making shit up.

Seriously, I see only "THIS IS TD_2.0" and other vomit constantly, and have yet to see a pro-Trump post or comment(and I mean PRO-TRUMP, not anti-Establishment/anti-MSM) get any significant traction.

In EVERY single Russia thread there are brigades with the usual "TD_2.0," <insert strawman on Trump supporters here>, "something something this confirms collusion!", "muh 13 indictments," etc. Please do let me know if I forgot a talking point.

I've been saying this a lot, but organic users can see through the bullshit. Let them have their circlejerks.

these fake users want to play identity politics in a conspiracy sub. everyone just downvote, report, call it out and move on. don’t waste time around here

There are plenty of both sides on this sub. I see posts leaning both ways all the time. The best part is watching the right wingers call the left "Sharia brigade" and the left call the right "Russians". Nobody that disagrees with me could ever be real!!!

The subs changed. There was certainly a time of pro-Trump support.

link it

Yep any pro trump comments are regularly at -20/30 while anything anti trump is upvoted high. Yet this place is TD 2.0!! Ridiculous, doesn’t match at all with what they are saying anyone can clearly see it.

I mean this is clearly a slide thread. Where's the conspiracy? What are we supposed to be discussing? What kind of supporter turns on someone at the drop of a dime over one appointment? Who knows why he did this. Remember the calm before the storm? It feels like the storm is getting closer.

When I go to the bar I am the minority - No I didn't vote for Trump. For fun, I ask them about the coal industry coming back, or the Wall, or the swamp draining. I never fail to start an argument. Nothing has changed and nothing will. I read a quote once - "If you think who sits in the Oval office is the problem, you don't know the problem"

What Trump offered from a distance appeared to be a safe haven from liberal insanity for those who wanted to live their lives the way it was before these SJWs showed up gleefully working to destroy the parts of our culture we'd grown to love and hold dear to us since it's inception. Up close, it was actually the insane people telling the truth with their delusions and mania mixed up with it.

Some people find this to be Machiavellian genius, but it isn't. It's just bullshitting. Homeless people lie better than Trump every day to get by.

So you thought Trump would somehow stop people from complaining about the sexy waifus you want in your video games? (For the record I love my sexy waifus too).

What the hell are you talking about

Sorry, I think I read into that too much, wasnt trying to be an ass. Out of curiosity then what are the Paris of our culture you think SJWs are destroying?

Toughness, individuality, free market, limited government subservient to the citizens, respect for the limitations on government granted by the tradition of the bill of rights, masculinity and femininity, open inquiry, and a bunch of other shit.

I'm hesitant to name every single thing because not all the same liberals are doing it and conservatives do a lot of these too. It's hard to back up all my claims when I just name a bunch of stuff.

Toughness

If your idea of toughness is never taking advice and doing whatever the fuck you want, no matter how it screws you or the people you supposedly care about.

individuality

Yeah, putting on a red hat and blindly following the will of Dear Leader, ostracizing anyone who dares to speak up about one of his insane plans not being the best decision ever made is super individualistic.

free market

The market is a ravenous wolf that wants to devour everything in its path. It was in the cage for a reason. You can be a bleeding heart hippie and let it out, but all it's going to do is eat your heart. This isn't really a Trump thing, though; if the past several decades haven't gotten it through everyone's heads that the much-lauded benefits of the "free market" are fucking fairytales, I suppose nothing will.

limited government subservient to the citizens

The citizens didn't even get the President they voted for. The party in control of all three branches of government and most states aren't even the fucking majority. They keep themselves in power through gerrymandering and voter suppression, and every passing year they do even more to consolidate their power and make it harder to vote them out. When they're done suppressing all the blacks or Hispanics or poors or liberals or whatever other fucking group they're targeting, they will move on to portioning up the white Christian male demographic in one form or another. That they are so gung-ho about voter suppression and media consolidation shows you which path the citizens can take to remove their politicians is most feared: it's not armed revolution, it's public outcry and voting. And the people who've most trumpeted their willingness to revolt should things get "out of hand" are the guys now refusing to cry out.

Oh, and it's increasingly more beholden to big business interests. "Drain the swamp" in-fucking-deed.

respect for the limitations on government

The administration is openly flouting ethics rules and actual laws and is cruising by on that without a care because Congress is complicit. When they move to get what they want, the Bill of Rights isn't going to stop them--and the same people now "championing" that collection of amendments are going to roll the fuck over and let it happen. Fess up; the Bill of Rights and the Constitution aren't values to these people, they're a fucking bludgeon to be wielded against "the enemy", and ignored whenever it applies to them.

masculinity and femininity

A single view of each that was never truly representative of America as a whole from a specific time period that has been fantasized and fetishized to a ridiculous degree. Just as Trump is a poor man's idea of a rich man, he's a beta cuck's idea of an alpha male. He's a strongman, not a strong man; a raging idiot man-child who best appeals to basement-dwelling virgins who blame, paradoxically, their inability to get a date on every woman being a slut. Fucking pathetic.

open inquiry

Jesus Christ, just try to get a straight answer out of anyone in this administration.

You live in Tumblr screenshots and think every woman has six piercings and neon hair and is just itching to kill the male gender or give them hormone therapy. I'd say this is merely the opposite side of the coin as the truly nutzo "SJWs" who think all men are seeking a return to the days when women were chattel, but they're more fucking right on that point than a bunch of 4chan incels who think baristas will turn every child gay.

Holy fuck. I agree with your comments and I still feel like I got fucking slapped in the face.

/r/MurderedByWords

For somebody that takes issue with "SJWs" you certainly have a major victim complex.

Never seen a bigger safe space than T_D in my life. I commented ONE TIME to try and bring an honest discussion and was banned. Snowflake central.

/r/conservative isn't much better. I said one time that I thought most republican politicians didn't really care all that much about abortion and were just using it as a wedge issue to wrangle evangelicals and I got banned super quick. Guess I struck a nerve.

That's a good point on abortion though. Much like the Democrats pretending to give a shit about worker's rights. They're all rich fucks, how far removed is Hillary from a minimum wage worker's life? I'd ask her but I don't have $100,000 for a speech.

Politicians will say what they need to say to push the voter's buttons.

Hahahahahah, OK guy, sure thing. Nothing beats throwing out individual adjectives with no supporting evidence. It sounds more like a perfume commercial than a retort.

Toughness? What toughness? Who is being tough on what?

Individuality? Huh? I've never seen a more uniform and "step in line" group of people than the MAGA crowd. The same crowd that wants to strip individual rights away from people that aren't like them.

Limited government? In what world is a government where the AG ignores state law limited? Imposing tarriffs is also LITERALLY THE COMPLETE EXACT OPPOSITE, L-I-T-E-R-A-L-L-Y, of a free market.

Masculinity? Femininity? I mean, what? Seriously? This is what you people come up with? Guess what, if you weren't feeling "masculine" before Trump, it's probably a you problem. Try a testosterone supplement or go to the gym more often.

I don't feel like arguing against a bunch of vapid marketing slogans so good day to you.

And yet another example of a mentally and emotionally unstable liberal getting extremely angry over the internet and thinking I'm a Trump supporter and depicting Trump supporters as evil idiots. Animalistic and socially inept behavior from open minded highly internet educated liberals was predictable once again.

Huh? You sound so insanely tribalistic I can't even remotely relate. Keep on keeping on.

On the internet, no matter how loud you scream, no one can hear you. All you're doing is conditioning yourself to get sudden high blood pressure.

Got it.

I thought this might interest you!

I am not attacking you or insulting you, I am just here to Listen.

Toughness, individuality, free market, limited government subservient to the citizens, respect for the limitations on government granted by the tradition of the bill of rights, masculinity and femininity, open inquiry, and a bunch of other shit.

What is your definition of femininity? What were you taught growing up about what femininity is?

I'm hesitant to name every single thing because not all the same liberals are doing it and conservatives do a lot of these too. It's hard to back up all my claims when I just name a bunch of stuff.

wasnt trying to be an ass

while visibly being an ass lol.

Can't expect anything more out of liberals. Liberals love attacking people but the minute it's done back to them it's fascist right wing racist tyranny.

I honestly hoped this sub at least was passed falling for presidents having any real say over what goes on. It’s a face, a patsy and a fall guy

That quote is referring to the common man is what's going on.

Wait some of you actually believed this millionaire would help us? Lol

Small loan of a million dollarsaire

Still richer than you, you seem salty as fuck.

Yep when he said that shit I knew. I'm a person who usually is anti conspiracy. When he said that shit all I thought was. " this fuck has no idea what it's like to be a normal human. Like he has no idea what it's like to say. Fuck I gotta charge this to American express because I don't get paid in 2 days. I'll pay it back. ( doesn't pay it back) . Beyond personal finance issues. He has no idea what it's like to be an average american. Fuck him and everyone who thought he would make a change. People were jinxed. He won't and will not make America great again. Especially when he said people who don't stand for the flag shpuld be arrested. He's a traitor to the real.america.

Can you imagine going your entire life without ever knowing the stress of how you will pay rent or if you can afford to fix that problem with your car. He must have an entirely different perspective on the world that almost no one has. Anyone who thought he would help the average person is daft.

It has not been easy for him. He started off small in Brooklyn with a small loan of a----

I didn't think he would help us, I just thought he was better than Clinton, which he still is. However this is the problem with the 2 party system. You get to choose between eating shit or eating shit with some chocolate sauce on it.

which he still is.

It's quite obvious he isn't, they are two sides of the same coin.

It’s not chocolate sauce, it’s actually just more shit.

which he still is.

based on what? i mean i don't support clinton and didn't in the election, but you can't know that he is better by any metric.

also, your pessimism is understandable, and a feature of the system, not a bug. you (as in trump supporters not just you personally) were sold some kind of hope of change. and guess, was a conman is con. so here we are, a bunch of disillusioned people basing their politics not on any kind of collective hope or will, but petty grievances and drummed up vengeance.

Or you could support a candidate you actually believe in and defy the 2 party system. Changes will never be made if people just accept it and play along to their game.

I hear it all the time, my vote will be wasted.... You are 100% right, vote your conscience, if everyone did we may end up with a government that reflects the people it governs. The two party system has a built in fail safe with the excuse "I would have voted for the whatever party candidate, but they can't win." Candidates outside the two party realm can and will if we make our votes count.

bravo!

The problem is that people talking about changing the two party system do nothing for four years and then vote for Jill Stein or whatever Libertarian is running. If you believe the Greens or the Libertarians are better, you need to support them at local and state levels first. Build a national party from the ground up. When that party is established, you field national candidates and eventually get to the presidency. Voting third party every four years and doing dick for the rest of the time won't do anything. Political parties don't start from the top and work down. Problem is the Greens and Libertarians have no interest in this. Jill Stein ran to stoke her who. What's she doing now? Is she helping her party organize and raise money to field candidates in local and state elections? Nope. She'll just have another vanity run in 2020 and nothing at all will change.

I can't upvote you enough for this. People only talk about third parties around presidential elections, but those are not the more important times for these parties. Politics like this have to start locally and grow nationally.

I voted 3rd party because I will never vote for a candidate I can't believe in. I'm a pretty moderate though. I've voted mostly R, but went for D in the 2004 because of 9/11. If the R's would support more civil rights in the future, I'd be more likely to support them over the D's, yet they consistently vote against LGBT and women and I cannot support that. I will always vote for the person over the party. I am a firm believer that if we removed the letter after the candidates name, we would find ourselves voting for the best candidate rather than the party it represents.

Trump was the first president to openly support gay marriage BEFORE being elected.

Trump also elected the most notorious anti-LGBT person to head the DOJ. Actions speak louder than words, especially coming from a foul mouthed piece of shit liar. He's also notorious for flio flopping so his words mean literally NOTHING to me.

Have you watched this CGP grey video? First past the post creates a two party system. It's an organic byproduct of how we count votes.

Once we are at the stage of voting in a democracy, it's already game over. If plato is to be believed

huh? I read that 3x and still couldn't make sense of what point you are trying to make.

It's from plato's republic. Democracy is a debased form of government that is on the lowest end of the scale of freedom, just before a society slips into complete authoritarianism

So a theory?

Well, look around you.

I'm looking, but I don't know what I'm supposed to be looking for exactly.

You can play dumb if you want

Not my mission.

To make two points:

we don't have a democracy. Officially it is a representative democracy (far from the fears of Plato)

Our voting system sucks because of the size of our nation and the fact that our vote is "lost" if our first choice candidate loses... Which forces us to vote against our fears instead of voting for our hopes.

Exactly. The United States desperately need a preferential voting system, where if the ballot paper has x number of candiates, you number every candidate from 1 to x.

The way preferential voting works, if your first preference doesn't get enough votes, your votes passes to your second preference and so on. If your vote can make a difference to the outcome, it will.

I've been saying the same thing for the last two election cycles. It's depressing that the only ones that can change it are the people that it would hurt the most. :(

Or you could support a candidate you actually believe in and defy the 2 party system.

Yeah, voting Green wouldn't support the GOP or anything...

OH WAIT... Maybe that was just one candidate though, Surely they were the only one... SURELY

It's not my fault people got played and lied to by their candidates. There were about 900 candidates for President they could have voted for.

I think it's crazy that people still think the political 2 party system is anything but a farce.

You think Clinton vs Trump wasn't planned? We literally are given two turds who will do the same things and work for the puppet master behind the scenes. Same agenda. Same goal. Different time frames.

He has revived and is allowing some of Clinton's key ideas :() fucking rich against the poor.

What would have happened if Hilary was nominated and not Trump?

Right now: Our regulatory agencies protecting the people have been highjacked by corporate interests with the dismantling of the EPA, DeVos with no teaching credentials and head of a multi-level marketing scheme is head of the Department of Education, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau wants to dismantle, the FCC is rolling back consumer protections.

We're still drone striking people and have US TROOPS IN BOTH SYRIA AND AFGHANISTAN.

Government surveillance was re-authorized and Trump wouldn't even declassify something as old as the old JFK files, let alone all the other bad shit the government knows and does.

I fucking hate hilary, but you people keep defending trump with "b-b-but she was worse!".

You fear she was bought out by banks and corporate interests, then Trump sells out our agencies and consumer protections to corporate interests.

The difference is that HRC would have continued the looting of the country under the table, as Obama and every President since at least Carter. Trump is blatant, which helps more people understand the absurdities of the system. Trump is a symptom of the systemic rot of the Republic, he's not the cause.

Obama instituted Dodd-frank and put restrictions on banks. The Clean Power Plan and environmental regulations such as preventing surface mining that causes pollutants to enter the water supply through storm-water run-off. Empowering the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau which intervenes for consumers. Remember Wells Fargo's and the CFPB cracking down on them?

Remember when Obama didn't institute the leader of a multilevel marketing scheme with literally no work experience or history in education (DeVos) and then DeVos redirected school resources to private charter schools reducing the resources for the neediest?

There's a clear fucking difference. Clearly more needs to be done and I have a lot of beef with Obama for things such as drone strikes and not being tougher on corporations.

But this whole "they're both the same" argument is complete non-sense and runs contrary to what's happening in our agencies right now.

Obama instituted Dodd-frank and put restrictions on banks

Ahh yes, toothless Dodd-Frank, which has subsequently been largely repealed via Bipartisan efforts. Obama let everyone responsible for '08 off with a slap on the wrist. His cabinet was hand-picked by CitiBank.

Remember when Obama didn't institute the leader of a multilevel marketing scheme with literally no work experience or history in education (DeVos) and then DeVos redirected school resources to private charter schools reducing the resources for the neediest?

Remember when obama had his cabinet recommended by CitiBank then proceded to let everyone responsible for '08 off, remember the "bail out" where Main Street payed for Wall Street? How about his abandonment of the Public Option in committee, and the bullshit Insurance Corporate handout that is Obamacare?

There's a clear fucking difference. Clearly more needs to be done and I have a lot of beef with Obama for things such as drone strikes and not being tougher on corporations.

No, there's not. Obama was a Neocon centrist Warmonger, just like Bush, just like HRC, just like Trump. You've just fallen for a few bones like some toothless environmental legislation or Liz Warrens committee which has also been rendered largely useless through Bipartisanship. There is. No. Difference. The Republic was fucked either way- HRC wanted a no-fly zone in Syria and escalation with Russia either way. War in the Middle East and Korea would still be on the table.

Not to mention the economics- Obama, HRC, Trump, all follow the Neoliberal way of Corporatism and deregulation disguised as toothless legislation. Wake up. There was no good option in '16, HRC was bad, Trump was bad, Obama was bad...there were no good options. Don't pretend the Democrats and HRC are somehow "better", otherwise you're obviously playing into the 2-Party trap.

Neither Party represents the interests of the citizens- they are the representatives of Class interests, and those class interests aren't yours.

If Dodd-frank is toothless and does nothing, why does it need to be repealed? I agree I want MORE protections, but why does it even need to be repealed if it's toothless?

I'm not sure why you're so focused on Wall Street, yet want "toothless" regulations on banks repealed.

Can you please explain why environmental regulations that prevent surface mining that causes pollutants to enter the water supply through storm-water run-off and zero regulations on them is no difference please?

Don't vote for a neocon/corporatist in a primary, the two parties aren't monolithic entities.

If Dodd-frank is toothless and does nothing, why does it need to be repealed?

Because they couldn't even stomach any sort of pretend regulations. They wanted to sell CDO's again, they wanted to get back to business as usual, and they wanted to make sure that it was known who had the power. Doesn't matter if it was toothless..they wanted it gone anyways.

I'm not sure why you're so focused on Wall Street, yet want "toothless" regulations on banks repealed.

I don't want regulation repealed, nice straw man tho. I wanted real regulation in the first place. It took almost 70 years to repeal the last of the New Deal reforms and Dodd-Frank wasn't anything close to Glass-Steagall.

Can you please explain why environmental regulations that prevent surface mining that causes pollutants to enter the water supply through storm-water run-off and zero regulations on them is no difference please?

Because it doesn't actually get us anywhere? It doesn't transition to a Green economy, it doesn't end reliance on fossil fuels...it's a soundbyte that has a good cause but at heart does nothing.

Don't vote for a neocon/corporatist in a primary, the two parties aren't monolithic entities.

They are Big Tent organizations and currently the factions at the top are both Corporatist shills. HRC and Obama represented the Corporate side of the Party, with its agenda and donor base. Bernie represented the Populists...well they cheated Bernie out of the Primary, went on to lose to a reality TV star, and still focus more energy on swinging Left towards the grassroots.

The Democratic Party needs stormed from the ground up by the People. This is happening, slowly, with organizations formed in the wake of Bernies campaign like Our Revolution. 8 State Parties have been taken from the Corporatists, and Cali would have been too, if the Party hadn't literally stuffed ballots to keep Kimberly Ellis out.

No one deserves your vote because they are a Democrat, or because they won the Primaries. If their record shows that they are a Neoliberal/Neocon warmonger, they shouldn't be voted for, especially under the pathetic guise of "lesser of two evils". It's time we start standing up for integrity again, and replace these centrist fools with real progressives.

We accomplish this, as I said, through the grassroots. The smallest organizational unit of the Democratic Party is the Precinct. Precinct Chairs vote for County Chairs, who vote for State Chairs, who vote for National chairs. This is how we take the Party from the cold dead hands of the Corporatists like HRC or Obama. Until this is done, I will not be voting for a Dem unless they align with my beliefs. 8 State Parties is a good start.

Caldem cheating link- http://observer.com/2017/06/california-democratic-party-chair-race-ineligible-votes/

Downvote bots. I want to see someone contradict your points with facts. Fuck this pussy ass sub

Meh, that's just kinda what happens when posts here hit r/all and get shared around the anti-Trump subs (as this one was). "People" on Reddit hate the Left just as much as the Right...only the MSM approved Centrist narrative is allowed.

Mine and others calls for a cleansing of the corrupt Democratic Party and Direct Action by the Grassroots is just too much for some...

It's funny because at least Hillary's base would have held her accountable if she sold out the office to corporate interests. Trump's base thinks selling out to corporations and foreign interests is a good thing.

There's actually something to that. With Hillary both sides would be scrutinizing her. With Trump just one is.

I guess you don't remember when it was Trump versus 15 other more qualified Republican candidates. That was when people had an actual choice that wasn't just the lesser of two evils. They just chose poorly.

How is he better than Clinton? The man is off the hinges. He cannot accept that he is wrong, double downs on everything.

You get to choose between eating shit or eating shit with some chocolate sauce on it.

So you just ate shit?

Yeah, and you chose the shit without the chocolate sauce.

No. He’s a Billionare.

This comment isnt helpful.

This person has just done something no one in my family or co-workers who supported Trump have yet to do - admit they’ve had an epiphany.

Millions of our neighbors were had by this presidential scammer but Lol’ing them when they are seeking public redemption after realizing they’ve been bamboozled seems wrong.

It's large scale brainwashing, and as this administration crumbles there are going to be a lot of people who will have their whole world shattered.

A really hope people don't go too nuts with the 'I told you so's.

I think your comment has some validity, but I can understand why so many find these epiphanies less than impressive.

At this point, Trump's misdeeds and flaws are so numerous, it'd be a bit like one of the Manson family rejecting Charlie. "Okay, that's great and all, but you still have just a few things to answer for..."

How could someone be so misguided to think Trump or this Republican Party had a plan, strategy or even any sense of direction? How did all these people vote for him or swallow his propaganda?

The fact that only now people are coming to their senses is a deeply worrying reflection of modern day America

These people should be named and shamed as they handed this imbecile power

What I think many people are losing sight of is that many votes to Trump weren't exactly "FOR" Trump it was more an "AGAINST" Hillary vote. My initial vote for Trump was because I wanted to do anything I could to ensure Hillary would not become President. Mission accomplished there. My support went from against Hillary, For Trump, and now....if I'm being honest with myself.....I don't know what the heck is going on these days. I know (or at least believe) the Democrats/Liberals are horrible and ruining many facets of society (micro-aggressions and gender fluidity? really? fuck off) but the more I learn about Trump it's like what is going on man? Why is Kushner getting security revoked while up to his eyes in debt? Why are there always these odd/weird things going on in your White House? Why are so many people getting fired? I like to think "hey at least he's transparent" but at this point he's just this focal point to fixate on and keep us distracted (IMO). Example: the other day I'm driving home from work listening to the radio and this lady chimes in out of nowhere she's like "But what about Stormy Daniels? Like how crazy would it be if THAT'S what took down Trump" and my first thoughts were A) Clinton did it first IN OFFICE and B) how fucking retarded does one need to be to think an affair WELL before being in office have any grounds to impeach a President? Well.....after driving a few miles I realized "wait a minute......who the fuck cares about any of that? there has to be something more important to discuss?"

I'm in a weird place. My faith in the man I voted for has dwindled considerably. I still don't like liberals and I don't like even more that even as I type this and being open I should be smart enough to know the "us v them" strategy is actively working on me. Sucks man.

Your honesty is refreshing and I can sense your frustration with how things turned out once Trump got in. But I still don’t understand why anyone bought into his promises.

He was a raging psycho on his campaign trail. Unhinged, rude, lacking direction and morals so his presidency was never going to be anything other than carnage and confusion.

Also the excuse that people didn’t want to elect Hilary so voted for Trump is idiotic. The same thing happened in the UK over Brexit, many didn’t know what it would involve or the implications but voted as they wanted something different, now the UK is fucked. Why waste the vote if you don’t know what it’s about, the same applied to Trump!

I hope you your sake and as well as ours things get better but it does look bleak.

See that's where I disagree. On the campaign trail I saw someone different and someone brash I didn't see a "raging psycho" and I still don't. I also, and yeah I know I've had a change of heart, will never say that Trump is stupid/moronic/idiotic whatever. You DO NOT become a billionaire President by being dumb. It logistically and logically does not compute. (do not mistake this for a full fledged defense. some people just have different views)

But yeah a vote against Hillary I stand by. I still think she is the absolute worst.

I don’t this he is necessarily dumb but he lacks the class and morals to hold that position in office. The United States get involved in so much world politics and trade but Trump throws all known processes out of the window and does what he wants.

This is no way to run office or a country. It’s unpredictable and at times dangerous.

This is without mentioning his xenophobic attitude towards non-white people, non-Americans, his view and treatment of women and a whole list of other issues. I wish for Trump and his whole family to be banished to the depths of hell.

But I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on some of these things. :)

It's important to remember while A% of Trump's support was racist, B% was sexist, C% hates gays, D% is single issue anti abortion, E% votes R straight ticket, there was F% that was naive ...and that's unfortunate....some people aren't used to having a politician lie through their teeth, "everyone gets better healthcare and covers everyone, coal is back, factories will reopen, maga"....it sounds nice.... They should have done their research but they just wanted help and they weren't able to understand how the Democrats would have helped them if they'd only given them a chance.

Don’t forget the enormous G% that was NeverHillary. If the Democratic party hadn’t sold itself to the devil they could have beat Trump with anybody...of course they probably wouldn’t have had to because Trump likely wouldn’t have won the Primary if Hillary’s team hadn’t asked their media buddies to promote “Extreme candidates like Trump and Cruz” in an effort to set up an easy oponent for the General.

Literally the only people in my family who support Trump didn't go to college. And they continue to support him as he go is against every populist claim he made during the campaign to get elected. Some people are too stupid to ever realize they were conned

Until my dying breath I will laugh at Trump supporters.

Some of us don't give a shit about being helpful anymore. We did tell them so and we were right and it did blow up in their faces and they should feel bad. They should be fucking horrified and begging for forgiveness. We don't have time to worry about their feelings, we need to worry about taking the country back as soon as possible before their moronic monster wreaks more irreversible havoc. We're pissed off and we have every right to be and we have every right to let them know so that maybe they fucking listen next time. Fuck the higher ground. The Republicans have rendered the higher ground approach utterly innefective for the last couple of decades. It's time for scorched earth. Fuck their feelings and fuck their opinions and fuck their dignity. Enough is enough.

Take some fucking responsibility. Next time don’t run a monster on your side and you will beat the monster the other side is running.

Oh please, there were what, 12 Republican candidates? And this was the guy they chose? I voted for Bernie, but 90% of the shit Republicans and conspiracy nuts believe about Hillary is straight up tin foil hat insane made up bullshit and they bought it without a second thought. They're like a cult. She's no worse than any other career politician. And I'm not going to get into some big debate with you about it, so don't bother. If you honestly believe she's a "monster" you fell for their bullshit and you're probably retarded.

No, man. I read thousands of Podesta Emails. I watched the video of her giddily cackling about Ghadafi being killed after her state department refused to answer his ambassador's calls when they were begging her not to go to war.

I too am worried about foreign influence and was terribly concerned about the 10's of millions of dollars flowing into the Clinton Foundation from middle eastern governments.

I worry about escalating war, and took deadly serious her promise to establish a no fly zone over Syria....which was as likely to lead us to a shooting war with Russia as anything in history.

She is dishonest. Her behavior is criminal. I'm not just talking about her total bullshit email scandal lies. I'm not talking about Whitewater (where both their business Partners and Bill Lt. Governor were convicted but we are expected to believe that they were squeaky clean). All I need to know that I would never ever vote for her is the Marc Rich Pardon that Bill sold in exchange for a donation to Hillary's Senate campaign and only wasn't pursued because the republicans had the Starr investigation backfire on them so badly.

Hillary Clinton is totally unscrupulous and just as much of a liar as Trump is, although she is a bit smarter about it and get's a far bigger pass from the media. She had no business on the Presidential ticket, and if the Democrats had run a decent candidate Trump would not be in office today.

Did you read the part where I said I'm not going to get into an argument so don't bother?

Then why even reddit if you wont stand by your words, you fucking weaksauce.

I stand by every word. That doesn't mean I'm obligated to descend into the tenth circle of conspiracy theory hell with every nut job that lays the bait out. I have better things to do with my life.

Minced words for "i'll backpedal and gtfo after I lay a big deuce"

Shhhhh.

So she's the exact equivalent of every other presidential candidate in history. My goodness, what a fucking monster she was. Clutch your pearls harder.

Don’t fucking Blame me. I didn’t vote for him.

We tried running goody two shoes Romney and what happened? Racist sexist Nazi one again. Dems can't fucking help themselves. Any R running has and will gotten the same treatment.

So guess what? We put someone in there immune to their bullshit games. The funny thing is they haven't learned a damn thing. Gonna be somehow even more hilarious watching him win a 2nd term.

What was stopping the Republicans from voting for someone like Kasich or Rand Paul? They chose Trump, Hilary is just another excuse for them to hide behind. Thy could've voted for a moderate in the primary but no they wanted to 'MAGA' and be Trump's bitch.

Well, the Hillary campaign asking their media pals to promote the extreme republicans so that they would have an easy oponent in the General certainly didn’t help...but no I certainly don’t absolve the Republicans of responsibility. It just drives me crazy that the Democrats refuse to acknowledge they allowed their primary to be stolen by a candidate so bad that she couldn’t manage to beat a dishonest moron who was obviously out of his depth. We democrats are burning all our energy in a pointless “resist” movement when we should be focusing on fixing the DNC and making sure that a good candidate that can win is up in 2020.

How fucking dense are you? Yeah, we'll take responsibility for how the DNC utterly defied the will of the people and rigged the primaries against Sanders. We took responsibility by championing Sanders and were robbed of it. Don't fucking sit there and talk about taking responsibility for the current mess because the Democrats ran Hillary regardless of what its party actually wanted.

AND what have you done about the corruption in your own party?? Fucking nothing. You are having Womens marches against Trump and pushing "Resist" Memes while you leave the group that stole your own party away from you in power. Focus on fixing that so that we don't have a repeat of this whole fiasco in 2020.

Amen to that. Trump supporters should feel ashamed. All the signs of Trump being a terrible Presidenti candidate were quite apparent during his campaign and even well before that.

You're right, there is no time for feelings. We need to get this man out of office and start restoring our democratic institutions for the sake of country. We don't need to convince Trump supporters they are wrong, we just need to turn out and vote and speak up because there a lot more us than them in this country. The vast majority of them are a lost cause.

There was also plenty of people who voted for Trump because they knew their situation wouldn't change under Clinton so they voted Trump because they thought maybe somehow if they threw a brick through the window of the government establishment something might change. Like Bill Burr said, it wasn't just a bunch of racist white guys who came out of the forest to vote for Trump.

You are just as brainwashed as them if you think these people can be "helped."

Here is some advice: Don't count on these people (conservatives) to do anything but fuck things up. They knew what they chose. They chose Trump out of a pool of a dozen other people at the RNC. They were attracted to his arrogance, ignorance, and lack of experience.

You really believe people that stupid can be depended on? Ha! HA! haHAA! HAHAHAHAHA!

No.

If you knowingly voted for someone that liked to grab women by the pussies, you deserve an I Told You So. You don't need to know jack shit about a politician if they are condoning and participating in the sexual assualt of women.

It's as simple as having the bare minimum of human decency and not voting for a fucking admitted rapist.

The OP isn't helpful and paints OP as a victim, pushing the blame to Trump and not those that enabled such sociopathy to take over the world.

Stop acting like these voters are completely innocent.

Instead of believing the "fake news" bullshit and Trump's asinine rhetoric, they could have done their own research and found that he has been completely full of shit his entire life. It wasn't hard to dig that info up before the election.

People need to take responsibility for what they do and that includes who they vote for. Letting them off the hook for being "had" is just a way of taking away their accountability for their vote.

I do not feel bad or sorry for them. They are in the same boat we are and they are the ones who put us here.

I didn't think he would actively help us, but figured that things have to get worse before they get better, and Hillary was going to be just more of the same. Maybe this trump experience will wake enough people up to the fact that our whole system is fucked.

I'd rather walk through utter darkness towards a hope of light, than live in perpetual shadow.

The system can work reasonably well with a competent person in charge.

I agree with you, but I think a competent person would realize this system has reached end of life, and it's time we install a newer version. I'm not calling for a revoution, just saying we're still running win95 and people are hacking the shit out of it.

Hillary was going to be just more of the same.

I’m tired of having a PB&J sandwich everyday for lunch, so to avoid more of the same I’m just going to eat this moldy bread.

You know damn well we haven't been getting pb&j's.

You know damn well that's bullshit.

Is there something wrong with being a millionaire?

Uhh. Yes.

I was downvoted to oblivion here after the election.

Ironic that conspiracy readers were blind to the truth slapping them in the face like a giant dick.

That’s because they don’t care about the truth.

It might be easier to visualize once the Stormy photos and/or videos come out of exactly that optic. Pro'ly not giant though.

Ew.

Yes. Well sort of. I voted for him because he wasn't called Clinton.

Help find the pizza boy!!!

Trump was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and never matured. No rational person could have expected anything better from an idiot like him.

(Majority or American voters/rational people) pick one

Why are you still reciting this tired lie? This is provably false and you know it. you're posting in r/conspiracy, do you think people will just buy your BS?

Dude it was a fucking joke Lighten up

I am having a difficult time remaining jokey under the current circumstances

I'm sorry you feel that way. Humor is the light that guides us through the darkness.

In other words, you're hysterical

IT'S JUST A PRANK BRO!

Please see above yes it is a prank bro. I regret it. No my name is not Logan. I also consulted my haters. Love you babe.

you're posting in r/conspiracy, do you think people will just buy your BS?

I agree it's a tired lie but I have no idea what you meant by this. You think /r/conspiracy is less likely to buy into BS than other subs? It seems to me that a lot of the people here just like dabbling in fun conspiracies, but the majority seem to actually believe in some BS...

Sure, there’s a lot of people here just dabbling and willing to be influenced by others, but (and I could be wrong) there also seem to be more independent thinkers proportionally here than in other subs that are more ideologically aligned to some perspective or presupposition.

Welcome to politics.

Go read Mueller's Manafort indictment and come back to me when you've done so. How anyone still believes Mueller is going after Trump is beyond me.

Manafort = Trump Campaign Manager.

Manafort >> Illicit Russian Money Ties.

Manafort's Illicit Russian Money Ties > Could Lead To > More Ties.

More ties > Could Lead To > Trump-Russia Ties.

Taking out the supports before getting to the core. It's like fighting a video game boss with many limbs. Take out the limbs, then strike the head.

Read the god damn document mate and follow the money. You guys are gonna feel really stupid when this is all over.

I have, and I don't feel any more stupid. Manafort laundered money. Yes, I know that's what he's being indicted for, among other things. The crime doesn't have to be linked DIRECTLY to Trump. Do you follow?

Oh for sure I do follow. Rod gave Mueller a carte blanche. But have you ever looked into Manafort's background before he joined Trump's campaign?

This is how Mueller took down Enron, which was corrupt as ass. Respect the process. Why cry over a criminal like Manafort?

Lol not defending Manafort here, he's corrupt as hell with all his lobbying with the podesta firm haha

You guys are dumb, research more.

How anyone still believes Mueller is going after Trump is beyond me.

You were saying?

Dude, go read the indictments of Manafort lol

Dude read the article lmao

Ive spent the time since I was awake this morning being critical of this garbage over at TD and I've been getting fairly good responses. I was just watching a video earlier of trump talking about firing tillerson in part over Iran and I said to my girlfriend."Im not sure if Im still liking this guy..." and sadly day by day it seems we both are starting to feel that way and we never, ever supported anyone from our so called government until trump came along.

People just gotta be honest with themselves and not make perpetual excuses for anyone regarding how much their own ego is obviously attached to it. Edit added a few things and corrected a few mistakes I hate this touch screen on this phone.

You deserve it. You know you voted for him to spite people for a large part. Anyone intelligent enough to come to this conclusion is intelligent enough to see what a hilariously bad and corrupt conman he is.

At least own up to it. Don't embarrass yourself by pretending you fell for his insanely dumb rhetoric.

Good luck to you and your girlfriend. I can imagine it's a difficult evolution.

Are you actually retarded or just acting? Pompeo only became CIA director because Trump wanted him to, he was a regular house republican before. And if you haven't noticed, Trump fires and hires people all the time. This guy isn't any worse than Rex.

go back to where you came from, you were never a trump supporter.

Fly home, buddy.

To be fair, Pompeo is a politician and not a lifetime spook. He headed the CIA for a year. I don't love the move but I also don't see it as cause for panic.

The instability in his cabinet and appointments is insane. Never seen so many people get fired/resign/leave in shame. I thought Rex would stick around, though. He never wanted the job so I'm sure he's stoked to retire.

But this shit is beyond embarrassing at this point.

You lefties are always going on about how "embarassed" you are. It's like, to y'all, the greatest of the many sins Trump commits is that he's hopelessly gauche.

"Oh my god, and... he eats is steak WELL DONE...and with KETCHUP!!!. Get me another PBR while you're up, will you, Theo?"

Is this supposed to be funny? Insulting? Enlightening? What are you even doing besides looking like an ass?

He doesn't talk like a construction worker from Queens you fucking poser. You must live in Iowa or some shit, never met anyone from NY. He just talks like a bullshitter. He talks like a guy in Real Estate, wants to talk business and wants to sound like he knows what he's talking about, but he fucking doesn't. He's a moron, a liar, a narcissist, and a wanna-be, fuck him, and fuck you for actually thinking he talks like anything other than a bullshitter.

How does anyone who claims to be open-minded fall for the partisan politics lie? Partisan groupthink is turning everyone into idiots.

Dude, pls fuck right off with the gross generalizations in your response.

"You lefties are always going on about...."

Can you see how lame those assumptions makes you sound? You don't know me, so don't pretend like you do.

But for the record, I don't buy into the left/right, 2-party paradigm. I feel that those that do are basic and cannot see the forest through the trees.

That's how he's draining the swamp. He's hiring all the worse then shaming them out if town. A few more years and it will be drained.

Username checks out

Do you really believe this shit or are you just trolling?

He’s got to be joking

Hmmmmm.

Wouldn't it make more sense to make the right hires to begin with?

The quote the guy was known for prior to the election was "you're fired". He is going to go through a lot more people before he is done.

He can hardly say it to anyone's face. It's a TV show meme.

yeah he fired tillerson over twitter because he's a fucking fat coward

1

Fired him over twitter, then ran to the other side of the country. This is the manboy that said he'd have run into a school shooting and saved the day.

Stick to your bunnies.

That fucker wouldn't run anywhere, period.

Can golf-carts fit on standard wheelchair ramps at schools?

Wait, you really think he fired him over Twitter, you don't think he already knew days maybe weeks in advance?

Some people seem to think that the faces politicians show us on social media are real.

No, he didn't, though I'm sure he could smell it coming. Trump posted the tweet around 9:00am, but he and Tillerson didn't discuss it together until noon.

Forced to pick between Tillerson's own words/Bloomberg's reporting and some benefit-of-the-doubt for Trump, well I'll take the former. Especially because it lines up with everything we know so far, like Comey finding out he was fired by seeing it on a TV while delivering a speech.

Fired Comey by sending a note to his office when he knew he was going to be out of town.

I always try to research both sides of these things.

From what I've read his supporters view the cabinet instability is viewed as a strength of his that he will fire people who don't pan out quickly rather than worrying about the news reports, etc. That they need to get in line and get their ass in gear or they'll get the boot.

I'm not saying I agree with it, but that's the best justification of this that I could find.

So he's fucking terrible at hiring the right people for the job then? Got it.

Something something, even good managers hire bad employees, can't help it if they lied in the interview, something, something.

A guy with no political or diplomatic experience as the Secretary of State? The guy was the CEO of Exxon ffs, how did anyone fall for that shit.

The same way they fell for a presidential candidate with no political or diplomatic experience.

The appointment was a head scratcher to begin with. But the curious thing to me was that as a former top oil exec, he was billed as having close ties with the Russians.

However, part of his statement upon being fired reportedly was, "it was the russians"!

Not quite sure what to think about this part.

I read that the turnover rate for his cabinet is like 48% right now. That wouldn't be an acceptable level of turnover for a hiring manager at Walmart, let alone the president of the United States giving out spots on his cabinet.

iirc mcdonalds has a rate of 44%

Great, people pulling thawed burger patties out of heated plastic drawers have more drive to stay at their job than the appointed leaders of our country

Is there a Vegas pool for the cabinet member that'll actually make it to January 20th 2020? Will any of them? Let's even include family. Melania isn't going to make it. The kids will probably be forced out if anything. Everyone else will be fired or "retire".

My money is on Kelly Ann Conway. But those odds are probably too low. Like 5 to 1?

It makes sense in theory, but I would assume that Americans would prefer their presidential administration to be able to take a running start.

I've seen them mostly saying that Trump hires somebody to perform a specific task and when they're finished with that task, he lets them go.

I don't know what task that was for Tillerson, but yea.

This doesn't hold up to the least bit of scrutiny. Tillerson called Trump a fucking moron and didn't deny it when asked. Sessions still has his job even though he won't fire Mueller or investigate Hillary.

If you look at how he did it in the private sector, he would burn every bridge, but the result was never a better bridge, it was bankruptcy and new investors for the next project. He did this until the only people that would invest in him were the Russians. The question is why were Russians willing to invest in him? My suspicion is money laundering. His business life was almost like a Ponzi scheme, and we are at the end of it.

McMaster, Kelly, Sec of VA (Sheukin or however you spell) it will be out soon as well

Crazy

https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/politics/trump-decides-to-remove-national-security-adviser-and-others-may-follow/2018/03/15/fea2ebae-285c-11e8-bc72-077aa4dab9ef_story.html?utm_term=.a49a2e990507&amp;__twitter_impression=true

2/3 so far lol

Don't they kind of have a 'suicide pact?' Now that's a cool as hell and fascinating conspiracy theory.

Yes, it's be reported Tillerson, Mattis, & Mnuchin had a suicide pack

https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/politics/trump-decides-to-remove-national-security-adviser-and-others-may-follow/2018/03/15/fea2ebae-285c-11e8-bc72-077aa4dab9ef_story.html?utm_term=.a49a2e990507&amp;__twitter_impression=true

Ha!

Gov. Cuomo of N.Y. has a bunch of people that have been convicted and left in shame !

Ok.

That was out of left field. No one mentioned him and the post was also not about him.

You made the comment that you've never seen so many people leave a cabinet in shame!?! it happens all the time at the state level and actually the Clintons, what they did was, they just killed people that they didn't like... so it does relate to your comment... it wasn't from Left Field!

I guess I should have clarified "presidential appointments".

Honestly no one gives a shit about Governors and their screw ups.

The voters with shit governors care.. yes clarify your thoughts... and go look up the list of Clinton "suicides".... they killed off those they disagreed with..

And lose your cranky attitude.

I know all about the body count. Go mansplain somewhere else

I'm assuming you're about 12 yrs old and haven't grown into your brain

The original post stated in the title that :we've been sold a lie".. that's exactly what Governor Cuomo did to the voters of New York State... he vowed to get rid of the corruption in yet it looks like he brought his own team of corruptors into Albany.

You are making this about you and apply it to the things that are fucked in your neighborhood.

Pls stop talking.

Then don't make sweeping generalized statements dickwad!

One of the surest signs that there is a real power struggle going on and this whole thread is started on a false premise.

And we STILL don't have a State Department, right?

Whoever was elected into office, the agenda was going to be run by the elites.... there was just two paths to the ultimate goal, they give us the illusion of choice, but the end game is always the same for those who stand in the shadows..... elections work two ways for the elites, first off a puppet in office, second it keeps our poisoned minds distracted and caught while other acts are being carried out.

Seriously? With the way Trump is handling things you're seriously going with "Eh it wouldn't have mattered anyway"

How uninformed are you? The US government has literally never been in disarray like it is now. Not during any of the major crises that has faced the United States in all its history were things as disorganized and fucked up as they are from the Trump admin.

Would Clinton have made a good president? I dunno, probably not, but she would have actually done the job. Donnie Two Scoops has literally not done the job he has been hired for, refused to enact sanctions on a foreign aggressor, fucked up trade negotiations across the board, told allies to piss off, and has dragged discourse to the lowest level in history.

If you can't see how disastrous Trump is you're a goddamn moron.

The US government has literally never been in disarray like it is now.

are you a just shill or do you actually believe in that?

Dude open your eyes. It is not normal for most positions to be unfilled and for so many high profile firings to be going on.

its not normal to see the msm go ape shit over a candidate either. i dont get whats the big deal about him firing and hiring people. most of people eligible (if not all) for these positions are corrupt. are you people really so disillusioned to think this is the first time these positions are filled by the wrong people? it just happens to be the first time that the corrupt system has an eye out for a sitting president so they spotlight all of these shitty people filling these positions but in reality, that has always been the case. if anything, the less time these positions are filled, the weaker our inefficient and flawed bureaucracy gets.

its not normal to see the msm go ape shit over a candidate either.

Yes it is. Was this your first election? The media goes apeshit over everything.

i dont get whats the big deal about him firing and hiring people.

Your lack of understanding doesn't magically make it okay. This is a government, not a call center.

most of people eligible (if not all) for these positions are corrupt.

The people Trump has specifically selected have been corrupt. You don't get to blame people in general for the people he chose being scum. There are plenty of people who could head up NASA, but Trump has appointed nobody.

What the fuck is wrong with you people that you are just refusing to even see the actual situation?

all im seeing is whats been happening for the past couple of years. this shit happens every few weeks and gets shot down or redacted even faster. im surprised people still believe in this garble.

None of this has ever been par for the course. There is no amount of insisting you can do that could even make that statement seem reasonable. No POTUS in history has ever left so many positions vacant, fired so many people so rapidly, or done so much damage to foreign relations. Even George W. Bush was many times more competent in all of these regards.

I'm not exaggerating, this is not opinion, this is absolute fact. If you don't want to give your head a shake to see it, then you're willingly part of the problem.

You're entitled to your opinion..... I am in no way ever supporting Trump, and never will.... but Hiliary is not better. She is a deceitful evil women who is already soaked in blood. So no I don't think the country would be doing much better. The president is a god damn puppet and distraction, the end goal is always the same, regardless of who is in oval.....

Oh for god's sake with this "blood on her hands" shit.. I mean really. How many investigations do you want to put one person through before your delusions are satisfied?

I don't like her but at this point you have got to be retarded to believe the right wing noise machine about anything let alone a Clinton.

You can believe what you like, that is your free will. I have spoken my thoughts on her and you yours, I respect that and am not going to get into an argument about her 'cleanliness' with you.

Removed. Rule 10.

I guess everyone forgot/did not see the interview about Trump on "draining the swamp". He states that he made it up on the spot (something like that) and it spread like wildfire so we went with it. He then goes on to say it will have NO impact on his decisions and he does not really 'get it'. So whoever says "Trump said he would drain the swamp" is correct in a sense that he said it but he stated he would NEVER action it. I do not get how people are still talking about this?

*Im at work but I can try to find the link later if someone wants

Yeah, tell t_d this. They're the worst at saying it imo

Source please

http://fortune.com/2016/12/21/donald-trump-drain-swamp-gingrich/

ty!

I think he said it was suggested and he thought it was dumb but tried it out at a rally and was surprised how popular it was so stuck with it.

He's a demagogue through and through.

This sounds like it belongs in a macabre Dr. Seuss book

Yes a demagogue is the perfect terminology for Trump. Thanks for posting the link. This is what I remember, when written out it doesn't even make sense but it shows he just said it to be popular.

You know what's super interesting about this quote now is that supposedly Cambridge Analytica was testing out that term or had that term in mind back in 2014. So I wonder who that "Somebody" who told him to say it was.

"Drain the swamp" dates back to the 1800s, there is nothing new or clever about it.

No pretty sure the 500 comments above you remembered.

I still support our government with the same enthusiasm that Bill Hicks did.

Are you familiar with the theory that Bill Hicks was not who he appeared to be?

Yo Dawg, I heard you like conspiracies so I put a conspiracy in your conspiracy theorist so you can conspiracy while you theory.

Take your upvote, you earned it.

John le Bon btw

Are you familiar with the theory that Paul McCartney was replaced by a duplicate?

No? Good. They're both pretty stupid theories.

False equivalence. Please be better than this.

I think this is one of those situations where I feel good leaving the burden of proof to you, good sir. I don't have to be "better than this" to a theory that started as a joke and has never had a shred of real evidence. But if you think you can offer something credible to support it, be my guest. I'll have a look, but you're going to have to meet a pretty damned high standard at this point.

You obviously have not even watched the video. It has nothing to do with the 'hicks is alive' meme.

Ah man I can abide a lot of craziness but leave Bill Hicks alone, the man was the real deal.

In other words, 'my prophet was a great man!'

Trump has been a huckster since he became a celebrity. Why is anyone surprised? I don't know how anyone can genuinely support Trump the man - usually the people supporting him know he's a tool for their own ends.

Never forget: the rich are the enemy regardless of what team they play for.

Never forget: the rich are the enemy regardless of what team they play for.

Hear, hear.

(Or is it here, here?)

Murder is quite the accusation.

Y'all thought a 1%er born millionaire was going to save the poor and disenfranchised? That's on you.

There is really only one way to solve these problems and it sure as hell doesm't involve voting.

Not to rub it in....but the man literally had a golden toilet on top of a tower overlooking central park. I'll never understand how anyone thought he could connect with the middle class and below.

That being said, this is no time for "I told you so's". That is only going to make things worse.

This is a great time for Americans to come together and pay attention to who gets in office. Realize our system needs to be fixed. And change it.

Watch him become another hard working blue collar guy that wears ballcaps again in just a few years.

I hope to see him in an orange jump suit. He's a fucking traitor.

General for just about every politician

For sure - there is only a hand full of good politicians. Seriously less than ten.

All the others should be hung in front of the capital. Time to set an example. I'm fucking done with these politicians. Overpaid, never fucking work, vote themselves in for the best health care and raises. It's a joke. They're all criminals.

No, the people I know who still support Trump will never vote for anyone without an R next to their name.

I'm sticking with "I told you so."

Not gonna get anywhere with that and the divide will keep getting deeper.

But - I understand your sentiment.

Maybe... but on the other hand the people who still support Trump are a much smaller group than the people who supported Trump in 2016. You don't really need all of them, and you're never going to convince everyone. Probably not an effective use of time to try to convince someone who still supports him at this point

That's a good point. Anyone who is still a supporter is just completely blind at this point.

Same. My dad would rather cut his own dick off than vote for a democrat.

Completely agree. The problem though, masses are given the same poison again and again with different flavors.

Bush Sr. was war monger, we got Clinton. Clinton was globalist (leaving the scandal aside), we got Bush jr. Bush Jr. did the carried the same globalist agenda with wars, we got Obama. Obama was same globalist, not a single conviction which fucked over millions of people 2008. And we got whatever we have now.

The problem is masses are not getting the change. They are getting the appearance of change. Enough to pacify and enough to forget.

Have you ever pondered the possibility that so many different people advocate for globalism, not because they want to screw you, but because globalism is indeed the best way

Voice of many doesn't means thats the truth. People advocate things what are beneficial to them. Also to be fair, there is certain amount of resistance to globalism all over. I think that globalism window if not closing at least is narrowing.

I didn't said that the voice of many made it truth. I asked if you ever pondered that maybe, just maybe globalism is not has bad as you've been lead to believe

Well I don't understand what "so many advocating" means over here then. May be you are better judge of your previous comments.

Coming back to globalism, I have thought pretty hard and listened to both side of arguments. Specifically economist. And the arguments doesn't seems to too convincing.

Why?

Era of unprecedented peace, American hegemony, and cheap consumer goods for all? Sounds bad to me.

Era of unprecedented peace

We've been at war for the past 17 years. We've toppled like 5 nations. It's a Jewish hegemony, and consumerism has become bane our of meager existence. You suck.

"war". Ok tell me what sacrifices a typical American has made? What risk have they endured? Even in the light of Sept 11, flight was and is the safest method of travel by magnitudes. No major power had directly conflicted with another in decades.

Ok tell me what sacrifices a typical American has made?

People died. About 175k in Iraq alone. And here you are, talking about how great Globalism is because of "peace" and cheap TV's. You're human trash, m8. Truly.

Guess you don't realize that 175k people died in just the battle of Stalingrad - in only ten days. And that was using weapons developed over a hundred years ago, in a world with less than 1/5 of today's population. 175k is heart breaking but you better believe that the world is the safest and most peaceful it's been in living memory.

Stalingrad was fought over communism. And the number was only that high because the Russians would be shot by their own MG's upon retreat. Iraq was fought over Israel. You have no spine and you have no idea what's going on out there. You have no understanding of the cost of your "peace". If you live long enough you'll find out what that's bought you.

"war". Ok tell me what sacrifices a typical American has made?

No concern there for the people who are on the receiving end of American warmongering? The death toll in Iraq is around half a million people. Seems they're the ones making the sacrifices.

Also, to visit your other post...

American hegemony

In other words, neoliberal capitalism, the war on drugs and mass surveillance pushed on other nations. Yeah, sounds great.

cheap consumer goods

The reason those goods are cheap is because people along the supply chain, from manufacturers to transporters to retail workers, are severely underpaid. Real wages have stagnated since the 70's, while the top 1% is seeing record gains in their wealth and income.

My country is a friend and an ally of America, and yet even here there are some visceral benefits to the USA's global decline in influence. I don't want to see a collapsed USA, but I do think a multipolar world, without any single entity dominating, is a fairer one.

dissolution of borders, race, culture, religion and national sovereignty

Nah I'm good.

Dissolution of race

Looks good to me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnCwfdc9LfY

No man globalism is the scary boogeyman illuminati future.

Just kidding it's pretty much the guaranteed charted course for humanity. So much technology fosters global humanity connections. Internet allows instant communication anywhere in the world. Planes and boats connect commerce all over the globe. Our governments are working together more and more to work on things as a species. It's going to happen. It's on us to make sure it happens ethically

Ethics is the problem. Globalism would likely consolidate power in the hands of a select few global elites that aren't ethical and have planned for a consolidation of power of more than what they have now.

I'll never understand how anyone thought he could connect with the middle class and below.

I'd say Steinbeck said it pretty well, "Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires."

Also explains why so many middle/lower class people can connect with him imho, they just refuse to see him as different, they want to believe they're much closer to him than what they really are.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

That's a smear.

It's not about a delusion that working-class people think they're on the cusp of being rich. It's that they believe in competency hierarchies and meritocracy.

The ultra-rich may well abuse their position, and they may well do everything in their power to rig the game for themselves, but that doesn't mean they did nothing to earn their position.

I don’t think a lot of people who voted for him truly believed he was one of us (the working class). I think a lot of people just had hope that he would be different, that he might just possibly be different than the Washington elites that have been feeding us lies and false hopes for the last however many years. Id say one of the best things Trump being elected did is that it showed people an “outsider” had a chance. That we didn’t have to just vote for who’s turn it was next. Also dropped a lot of red pills and showed people how corrupt the system really has been for so long. Idk man I just wish there was something more we could do to take our country back and I think a lot of people felt the same way and thought trump was that ticket out. We’re gonna drain the swamp one way or another, trump might not be that ticket out but a lot of people woke up because of this election and showed people that’s what needs to be done.

Fair point. But, literally a 4 minute google search showed how he was a failed business man and extremely corrupt. In bed with the mafia and the Russians.

I just can't believe so many people thought he had their interest in mind at all.

I do think you make a fair point that now an "outsider" can get in. But - I think the bar should be much fucking higher. Whether you liked Obama or not he was a Constitutional Lawyer with a degree from Harvard.

We should have higher expectations. It's gonna start from the bottom up so let's do this.

If ever there was a time for an “I told you so” it would be now, but I agree the best thing to do is to be mature about it and try to come together and actually drain the swamp

0.000001%er*

FDR was a 1%er and did more for the common man than almost any president ever.

FDR never started arguing about the size of his dick on a live broadcast to the whole country during a primary

there were signs

Remember when the right was trying to paint him as a "blue collar billionaire"? That shit was hilarious. What does that even mean!

Newsflash, they're pretty much all full of shit and do not represent or care about the citizenry of this country.

Differences matter.

Not everybody that comes here is a trump suporter. But i agree, this sub is slowly dying. I miss the real conspiracys

Here's a good one: why does Tillerson get fired a few days after 4 senators ask him to engage Russia in arms control talks, and on the same day Israeli and Saudi Arabian diplomats are in the White House?

This sub (or real subscribers anyway) knows that Trump is a douchebag billionaire. The problem is that the system gave us a choice between either another corrupt politician that would secretly grow the plutocracy or Trump which seem to piss off a lot of the establishment off. The fact that the populas is ultra aware of everything in politics these days is a good step in the right direction and will only make more people aware of the corruption that happens. The biggest conspiracy is how that fact is being censored everywhere, including here.

Yup yup

Populism is a racket and you fell for it.

Thanks for trying to conflate my point with an entirely different topic, user that only started commenting 4 days ago. What an organic strategy...

They're still scared of "Populism".

Perhaps its time to ask why. Populism is easy to coopt and derail from what we have seen. Where is the threat?

The threat is a movement that grows outside of the American political system with revolutionary goals. This has been America's greatest threat since its inception. If you havento ask yourself why it would be a threat to you then ask yourself if you are apart of the America I am describing.

Populism is scary because complex topics get reduced to slogans and catchphrases, and if done recklessly, it's downright deceiving

See: "drain the swamp", "cheaper and better healthcare" etc etc

Complexity is a poor and intentionally malevolent excuse for oligarchy. Power belongs in the hands of the people. Step aside or be swept away.

Power belongs in the hands of the people

Yet this is why the US is a representative Republic and not a "pure" Democracy, because a tyranny of the mob doesn't quite cut it

I never said Populism per se is a bad thing, all I am saying is when done in a deceiving way (See: Trump) it hurts the very same democracy you think you're preserving

No, the US is a republic because travel distances were too long which made voting and tallying votes impossible in a timely matter. There were plenty of founding fathers that wanted a pure democracy, but it just wasn't possible with their technology.

I don't recall learning about any founding fathers that espoused an interest in inplementing a direct democracy - could you provide a source ?

[removed]

I'm hip to the non direct democracy piece in the federalist papers, but I gleened from your comment that there were founding fathers who openly advocated for direct democracy. As for Jefferson, I've read his works, and Jeffersonian democracy couldn't be further from a direct democracy. As for John Locke, while many founding fathers were influenced by him I can't find any writings from them (the FF) that imply a desire to implement direct democracy. Is there a direct source or is it circumstantial?

Still waiting on source

Ehhh, the writer of the constitution was in Aristotle’s proverbial tree of philosphy, wasn’t exactly big on taking power away from the elites.

Democracy?

For the multi-millionares sure.

Far better rule by the mob than by them.

There is no need to preserve anything.

Well I don't disagree with this at all

Now, how a self proclaimed billionaire from NY who was a democrat 10 years ago and has gold crown molding on his Manhattan penthouse convinced the poor and the working class that he is a "Populist" and totally one of them, I have to say, it's fucking amazing.

Because the American working class had literally no other way out?

No thanks to COINTELPRO I suppose. Still, there is only so much supression one can do when material conditions are getting really bad. And they are almost there. The next depression might be the final nail in the coffin. People are already dying from poverty at a steady rate. Imagine how horrifying it will be when our current economix bubble pops.

Thank you for touching on a point most people don’t seem to get. Democracy is extremely imperfect, obviously. But part of that is because popular majorities are dangerous. We have so many layers of government, some appointed and some elected, as not only a check on one another but also as a check on the will of the voters. The 17th amendment was probably a bad idea. So are primaries, at least for the President.

Shill accusations are like security blankets on this sub. Sometimes it really seems like everyone sits around sucking their thumbs and calling everyone else an inorganic shill.

I called you inorganic, because you are being vapid. You may or may not be a shill, but you certainly have no argument yet. Attack my original points and then you can get a rebuttal from me.

Okay I'll do it.

douchebag millionaire

That is sweeping so much shit under the rug. He is so much worse than that. He's corrupt. He's almost certainly a rapist. He's a bigot. He's literally just fucking stupid. He's a narcissist. It's always been Trump first, not America first. And these were all things we knew before the election.

But if you say all that, you can't compare him to Hillary because now she looks like the second coming of Christ. So you saying "douchebag millionaire" is, once again, propagating this false equivalency that got him elected him the first place. Just fucking stop.

Exactly and people are finally accepting or at least aware that the president can be all of those things and still be in the highest position of power. My hope is that people start questioning to find the precedent that allowed such abuses go unpunished. Trump and Hillary are both symptoms of a system that doesn't represent the people, but rather just the corporations. For the first time in my life, almost everyone agrees on that premise now. That corporations run our government. There is no doubt anymore with Trump.

Democracy dies in darkness. An aware population is our only chance at beating the corrupt actors that control our government. This is was real democracy looks like, an engaged citizenry holding the government's toes to the fire. We are all just used to living in a corporatocracy that would pacify everyone's concerns, that this reality seems strange to many.

You just said exactly and went on to the compare the two, once again, before standing on your soapbox.

I agree with a lot of what you said but here's some advice for next time you vote: don't vote for the loudest snakeoil salesman just because he's "different."

Thanks for the advice, but I don't believe in either Trump or Hillary. Here's some advice too for the next election; don't believe either Trump or the next Hillary. Believe in the collective power of us.

Omfg the left is seriously becoming the conspiracy theorists now.

Lol this isnt pizzagate. There is actual evidence for everything I said

That’s exactly what a conspiracy theorist would say!!!

OMFG

He has billions not millions

As the great bill hicks once said: i think the puppet on the left shares my belief.
Well, i think the puppet on the right shares my belief.
Wait a minute, theres one guy holding up both of em!

Absolutely brilliant

Populism was spawned by the farmers of this nation after price ficiing and market manipulation in early America almost starved them out.

Populism was a way and a movement that had Caravan's of farmers starting their own merchantiles and banking systems through a series of co-operatives, granges, and farmer backed financing instead of the vulturistic banks and railroads who wouldn't ship produce/fruits/meat if the farmers were to make a profit.

It had its up and downs, but if "Populism" is not a racket. Its when the oppressed are so trodden down, so in despair the popular thing to do is anything but what isn't working. It means "support for the ordinary people."

The populist movment during the early part of this nations history is a real struggle for folks, who often didn't make enough money each year until they died. Dying with nothing, and they bank every year taking a bit more land and adding more debt. They controlled/colluded with the Banks/Railroads/Supply houses to make sure the farmers couldn't sell at fair market values.

It wasn't a racket, and populism is akin to poking a down person until they break. They have tried to use the system, and at every door its slammed in their face year after year, until they have nothing, are losing their land, feel completely ignored, and they find great strength in numbers and camaraderie. Powerful stuff.

Oh shit u/Crows_and_beef just got rekt.

What a write up.

Yes, If you were intelligent you would have voted for Hillary or Bernie! Lmao

Conspiracism has indeed gone mainstream, and has now been solidly linked with the Trumphead special snowflakes in their safe space of r/TD.

This is not a good thing we are now taken even less seriously, and linked with white supremacists and neo Nazis in the public's mind

The whole neo nazi thing blows me away! Seriously that isn’t farther from the truth.

Yet it only took a couple to muddy the waters :/

No it's not.

Nazis hate jews. This sub is like 95% hatred of Jews.

This is the Naziest place on Earth.

Anne frankly, I don't care.

This is not a good thing we are now taken even less seriously, and linked with white supremacists and neo Nazis in the public's mind

you seem to be conflating users of the_donald (who by and large seem to subscribe to civic nationalism) with white supremacists and neo-nazis, and for no other reason than that this is a talking point which has been repeated ad nauseam

No, I'm saying that the rise of cultural awareness of our community due to the last election has not been good for the conspiracy community, because it happened in such a way that we were linked with r/TD, neo Nazis, and white supremacists. I'm not equating those three groups.

No, I'm saying that the rise of cultural awareness of our community due to the last election has not been good for the conspiracy community, because it happened in such a way that we were linked with r/TD, neo Nazis, and white supremacists. I'm not equating those three groups.

thank you for the clarification

I'd say the users of T_D have muddied those waters themselves.

I'd say the users of T_D have muddied those waters themselves.

talk is cheap.

where's the beef?

You need me to remind you of them promoting the White Nationalist rally in Charlottesville? You know the one, it ended in death.

No, of course you don't. You're gonna play these games: proof or it didn't happen, until I provide proof and you leave the conversation, because you didn't lose if you never respond taps head. You just hoped people have forgotten. We haven't.

You need me to remind you of them promoting the White Nationalist rally in Charlottesville?

yes, please remind me -- with links to the relevant threads -- of the_donald promoting the charlottesville rally specifically to bolster the cause of white nationalism.

You know the one, it ended in death.

heather heyer's death was truly unfortunate, but the way her death has been used and abused for rhetorical points is deeply disgusting.

No, of course you don't. You're gonna play these games: proof or it didn't happen, until I provide proof and you leave the conversation

i'm still here, and you're boring.

Nah, not doing your googling for you. You'll take this as, "fake news no proof" and I and everyone else will still see you with your head under a rock and your fingers in your ears.

in other words, you don't have any evidence (i.e., you're making things up) and are now trying to walk back your grandiose claims that you were able to provide proof of your assertions

it is likely that i am more familiar with the details of the charlottesville incident than you are. for instance: do you know the likely reason that james fields drove his car into the crowd?

The mods did a good job scrubbing the posts clean after the rally (for super obvious reasons) but here is the link to the post endorsing the rally.

But luckily there are tools to see what they deleted!

https://ceddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/6rsng3/unite_the_right_in_charlottesville_next_week/

https://removeddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/6rsng3/unite_the_right_in_charlottesville_next_week/

And before you say "the subreddit didn't support it, someone made a post about it and when the mods saw it they deleted it!" That is in fact not true! This was a stickied post at the top of the subreddit obviously meaning that a mod not only saw it, but believed it was worthy of making sure everyone on the subreddit got to see it as it was one of the two most important things in the subreddit. Only once their racist shit rally ended up with one of their supporters killing someone and injurying another 19 people, did they decide it was time to delete everything and pretend like it never happened.

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The mods did a good job scrubbing the posts clean after the rally (for super obvious reasons) but here is the link to the post endorsing the rally.

But luckily there are tools to see what they deleted!

https://ceddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/6rsng3/unite_the_right_in_charlottesville_next_week/

https://removeddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/6rsng3/unite_the_right_in_charlottesville_next_week/

And before you say "the subreddit didn't support it, someone made a post about it and when the mods saw it they deleted it!" That is in fact not true! This was a stickied post at the top of the subreddit obviously meaning that a mod not only saw it, but believed it was worthy of making sure everyone on the subreddit got to see it as it was one of the two most important things in the subreddit. Only once their racist shit rally ended up with one of their supporters killing someone and injurying another 19 people, did they decide it was time to delete everything and pretend like it never happened.

did you even bother to read the material found at the first link? here is a representative quote:

This is what we must do. No more infighting, I don't agree with them, they likely hate me, but not as much as we hate the communist left and how much they hate us. We're all fascists to them anyway, doesn't matter if you're an Ancap - if they seize power you'll be put up against a wall just the same.

i trust that it's obvious that the person who wrote that is not a white supremacist.

It isn't obvious at all. In fact, that shit sounds like a raving lunatic, fearful and paranoid, in the fraying sanity kinda way. "...as we hate the communist left and how much they hate us. "Let me ask a simple, simple question: What America are you living in that makes you afraid of communists such that you would hate them?

There is no "communism" here. This moment of this nation is an absolute pinnacle of rabid, unflinching consumer capitalism. This is not an accident, as the machine has ratcheted unerringly in that direction for half a century. The fact that you are so sweepingly, blissfully unaware and ignorant of this reality, of this blindly reckless acquisition of power that is modern America...

It's like you don't understand you already won. Can you not grasp the history of your supposed philosophy's victories?

You have nothing to be afraid of except yourself. Who is tearing you from the top of the mountain that you must kick and beat on those below? This is the concept, for ya'll and our president, that has yet to register.

Can you not grasp the history of your supposed philosophy's victories?

while there are many errors in your post to which reply should (and most likely will) be made, i will begin by noting that you have erred in the apparent assumption that i am in favor of capitalism. to be clear: i consider both capitalism and communism to be serious intellectual and moral errors.

here is the link to the post endorsing the rally.

"I want to be perfectly clear with you guys that many of the people who will be there are National Socialist and Ethnostate sort of groups. I don’t endorse them. In this case, the pursuit of preserving without shame white culture, our goals happen to align. I’ll be there regardless of the questionable company because saving history is more important than our differences. This is probably why they named the event 'Unite the Right.' Speaking for myself only, I won't be punching right. We need to save civilization first, we can argue about the exact details later."

Aka "I don't openly support white supremacists but we need to preserve white culture and white supremacists will help me preserve white culture. But I'm totally not a white supremacist or racist despite me feeling that statues of Confederate leaders and traitors to the government of the United States somehow are an inherent and integral part of white culture."

Talk about a fucking dog whistle. Liberals are attacking white culture by wanting to remove the statues of literal traitors to the United States? Even if you ignore that they were traitors to the United States and that they reason they tried to leave the union was because they wanted to own slaves by just calling them Confederate leaders, what part of the Confederacy is ingrained in white culture? I'm white and my family fought for the Union in the Civil War; the idea that Confederate leaders are a part of white culture is fucking insulting. How are Confederate leaders a part of white culture? Even Union leaders aren't part of white culture. I'll give you Confederate leaders could be a part of southern culture and history; there should be no argument about that the same way that there should be no argument that the Union would be a part of northern culture. Confederate leaders should not be celebrated, what they stood for is shameful. There should be no pride in what they fought for; hundreds of thousands of people died for their belief that they had a right to enslave fellow human beings. Tearing down statues of Nazi leaders isn't an attack on white culture; it's an attack on the shameful beliefs Nazi leaders stood for.

But that isn't what they said, they said white culture was under attack which is complete horseshit. They weren't defending southern culture (which is also a bullshit argument but a lot better than white culture) and white supremacists just happened to be unfortunate allies in defending southern culture and history. They were trying to gather people to defend the supposed attack on white culture and it was supposedly super unfortunate that a ton of white supremacists where going to show up to the march to defend white culture as well.

Isn't that what the government always does? Make conspiracy theorists look as stupid and crazy as humanly possible so that no one believes them.

Sure but it's been amped up and dare I the government didn't have to do much.

Before I only had to keep my politics to myself so people don't assume I'm into UFOs/Bigfoot/lizard people.

Now I have to have to keep my politics to myself so people don't assume I'm into UFOs/Bigfoot/lizard people/Trump/white supremacy/neo nazism.

Alas

What a time to be alive :(

You can use that as an opportunity to distance yourself and others from that association, while furthering other people's understanding.

Take a tactic from their playbook and turn your discussion into a limited hangout of sorts. Acknowledge their assumption, give credence to the upswing in far-right nationalist relation to conspiracy theories, then explain why you don't align with their beliefs.

It only takes a few sentences or so, it's easy enough to work into conversation if you're already heading down the rabbit hole. I've found that it actually works fairly well, people generally stop and reconsider what you've said, if even for a moment. Planting the seeds is all we can do

If you let others people define you, you were f'd to begin with.

I'm not deaf to social implications of being "that guy". Not worth it. Would rather just have friends

Some people would rather hang in company they live alone. Good hanging to ya!

This time it maybe a good idea to accept responsibility rather than deflecting the blame to an outside entity.

Well, the government even invented the phrase, 'conspiracy theory' https://www.amazon.com/Conspiracy-Theory-America-Discovering/dp/0292757697/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1471971025&amp;sr=1-1&amp;keywords=Conspiracy+Theory+in+America

The government even invented the phrase 'conspiracy theory'.

Inter dimensional lizard people pedophile colonies on Mars make conspiracy theorists look stupid and crazy.

That's what the topminds subreddit is trying to do and for sure they are paid to do it

THIS COMMENT. Spot on there, buddy.

I don't think snowflake means what you think it means.

That usage is definitely appropriate

Given the somewhat progressive nature of current mainstream American political and social climates, those demanding a harkening back to traditional hardline policy and social mores would have to be considered as requiring special treatment; with the implication being that they're "better" than their unwashed peers.

The new american far-right is made up of just as many special snowflakes as their radical sjw counterparts

I know what it means. I just can't help myself when the irony of a community that makes fun of people for getting "triggered" and having "safe spaces" while simultaneously getting easily angered by the slightest mention of gun control or other things, and hanging out in a sub where you get banned for even the slightest mention that Trump isn't the second coming of Jesus is just so... deliciously palpable (who doesn't have a palette for irony and a lack of self awareness?).

"Snowflake" just goes with the territory

They are "ultra aware" of what headlines say. Fact is lost. I don't think that is a step in the right direction.

I had that realization just after the election. GOP controlled Congress with Clinton as president would result in pure gridlock and as many investigations they can fit into a day.

It looks like everyone who voted Trump to "burn it all down" got their wish... But! The response to this whole scenario will hopefully be dozens of new laws written explicitly to patch these "ethics" loopholes.

Trump will literally Drain the Swamp, but it wont be a fun ride for him

You say that as if people to "fix" the government will naturally appear, be elected and go around sensibly fixing things. Are you retarded?

Uhhh, thats why we vote on things. In America we have a thing where people go to the polls and vote to elect people to represent them.

How bipartisan does it need to be to ratify something that says "Presidential candidates must release 20 years of tax returns" ... "Family members cannot be appointed to WH staff" etc etc. All of the obvious shit, you could easily have 20-30 things Trump led by example to not-do

Trump is going to become Reagan 2.0, glorious Republican presidency filled with owning the libs. Republicans won't vote for shit that would discredit Trump's presidency.

But what if Trump is normalizing extreme corruption and simply setting a precedent for what future presidents can get away with?

It looks like a net good for the country, but time will tell what price we paid.

I agree with you. If Trump wants to get the Clinton mafia out he will need to get people in who may also be corrupt, but are loyal to him and not the old guard. That's how these things work. The best option we ever had was to get a new mafia installed, because during the poo flinging, we can get little glimpses of what is really going on. So from this perspective, Trump is the closest thing we get to a "good guy", whatever that means. That, and the system does actually seem to be catching an awful lot of pedophiles lately.

I'd like to see Bernie in office, if for no other reason, than to see what a strong and honest attempt to clean up corruption at that scale looks like, and how effective it can be.

A doddering old putz that gets pushed off-stage by two screeching 'wymyn'? Really? Your hero http://img.4plebs.org/boards/pol/image/1439/07/1439079738165.jpg

obvious troll is obvious

Proudly, yes. Including for his decorum for how he acted there, at somebody's event. From a man who has participated in his share of civil disobedience, and for a solid cause. America's law enforcement and municipalities focus on transparency, community policing, training and other methods of helping America's police services address systemic brutal racism is overdue IMO.

I really would like to see his best go at taking on public corruption in America. I'm hopefully confident in his effectiveness and on top of wanting to help, I would just be interested in seeing how it would go down.

You are proud of a weak-ass old cuck who ran off stage, jumped into his armored Town Car, and left with tires smoking because two buffalo gals were screeching at him about 'BLACK LIVES MATTER'?? You are a prime example of foolishness.

In no fucking world can Clinton be compared to Trump. The only thing that can make you think that a Clinton presidency would be as big of an international disaster is meme propaganda.

Well, Trump can operate a staircase at least.

Jfc

That and Clinton's lifelong record of corruption and incompetence.

2016 was an election about reform, she should have never ran. She was vastly unpopular, huge swaths of the US would never vote for her in a million years. Thanks to her we got a President for negative change, instead of positive change.

I'm glad that I'm not the only person who realizes this. The only good thing that might come from Trump is that people will be even more desperate for reform after he and the GOP are done.

So much garbage in a single post. Seems like you've formed your opinions off of memes you read on the internet.

You must not live in a red state. If the Democrats remain blind to the faults of thier own party they'll end up with 8 years of Trump.

I've always been wary that Trump was the establishment's hand-chosen 'populist' candidate, but Hillary was obviously an establishment globalist so IMO we had to take a shot.

This. People are slowly losing fear and are becoming more aware of the conspiracies.

Why does he get fired almost immediately after blaming Russia for Skripals attempted assassination?

The US is preparing for war. I'm calling it now.

-Expanse of domestic drilling

-Foreign Steel Tariffs

-Bizarre capitulation by Kim Jong Un

-Crackdown on clearance in the administration

-Multiple "warhawk" statements about blood in Syria and backing the UK

-Gag orders in the last 24 hours placed on military personnel contact with all media

-New forms of biological weapons announced by Russia, including smallpox delivery

-CDC working on contract to stockpile smallpox vaccines until the end of the year

-Removal of Tillerson, his vocal support, and Trump's assistant over a security issue - replacing Tillerson with Pompoe (military engineer)

I don't think the firing was due to collusion of any type, it was to shut up the potential blabber-mouths about an upcoming military move.

There's plenty more if you'd like. I'm thinking of tossing up a post.

I'm NOT a conspiracy person, I come in here and make fun of everyone, but this is actually worrying me.

Wait military bag orders? I had not heard about that yet.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2018/03/13/air-force-issues-gag-order-press-engagements-memo.html

https://www.defensenews.com/breaking-news/2018/03/13/air-force-orders-freeze-on-public-outreach/

Look at reports on Veteran Today website by Gordon Duff. Scary stuff. https://www.veteranstoday.com/2018/03/13/unconfirmed-russia-reinforcing-syria-for-trump-netanyuhu-onslaught/

What about the smallpox?

Sorry, I can't find my source from earlier. I'll ping you again when I do. Ty for asking about it.

For sure, thanks for providing. I have noticed the writing on the wall about a potential war, just didnt see a few of the key things you pointed out.

I misinterpreted a few articles, I believe. I've linked one of them, however.

Nice work. Please post more

I agree, I believe strongly, that the US is preparing for war

Russia wouldn't want a war with us. They have aging military equipment and what they do have is vastly inferior and/or in much smaller quantities than us. They do have an abundance of nukes though. But I don't think Russia would be stupid enough to use one.

Now if Russia and China were to join forces... that'd be a much more notable war

China is about to have a real estate collapse that will make 2008 look like a walk in the park.

You sure about that? At least in australia chinese nationals have been buying up a fair but of land over the past 5 or so years. Wouldnt be a shot in the dark to say they have been doing the same thing elsewhere

They are actually the largest land own in the US as well.

Really strewth!

Do you have a source on that?

add the word foreign in there and they might be correct. The chinese do not own more than the US govt.

Bullshit.

Uh source? Because that sounds like bullshit and Google didn't yield anything. How the hell does this have 13 upvotes?

canada too

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-27/china-s-war-on-bubbles-means-homes-sales-set-to-fall-in-2018

Same with Canada lol

Same in the US, especially California, especially around San Francisco. Purchases by Chinese nationals have been helping exacerbate the housing boom. Doesn't help that the places often sit vacant once they're bought. Real estate serves as a safe haven for wealthy Chinese who don't want their government to seize their assets.

Yes, they're doing that because (they think, at least) real estate in China is about to collapse. It's happening in the US and notably in Canada where they're pricing Canadians out of housing.

Its a way to get money OUT of China and locked up so it can’t be repatriated or likely to nosedive in value.

I've been hearing that since 2008 haha

Cool. We were hearing about the 2008 crash since 2000.

I'm not saying it won't ever happen, just that if we actually knew the time frame we'd be Christian Bale in The Big Short

Where is the incentive?

Russia and China won't be ready for a nuclear exchange with the US until their blue water navies are fully developed which won't be at least until the beginning of next decade probably closer to 2025.

Why?

I don't know what you think war is. Russia's not going to just lose a bunch of battles and think "well I won't use Nukes yet because of morals but you are getting close America." Once a war begins all options are on the table to end the war as quickly as possible. There can and will not be any war between the US and Russia that does not involve nuclear weapons.

Except for, you know, the countless proxy wars that have occurred since nukes. And of course there is a reason they won't that has nothing to do with morals. Mutually assured destruction.

There is a difference between a proxy war and a war where you own civilians are at risk of dying. As soon as we make a direct attack on Russia, all bets are off.

Nonsense. They wouldnt choose to not use them because of morals, they would choose to not use them because of MAD. It would be perfectly possible for the US and Russia to wage a full scale conventional war against each other without either side using nukes, because MAD would always remain in effect. As long as neither side is actively seeking total destruction of the other side as the end goal for the war, it would never be worth it for either side to use nukes, because any nuclear strike would result in immediate total annihilation.

That's ridiculous.

No it isnt. The US military literally just killed a bunch of Russians that attacked them in open conflict. Neither side used nukes.

They killed Russian mercenaries in a proxy war. Its a big difference.

No it isnt. Russian mercenaries still take orders from the Russian government. And it isnt a proxy anything when it involves actual US forces.

Killing Russian mercenaries is not the same as killing Russian soldiers and Russian civilians. Both sides have deniability. If you don't understand that, then nice talking to you.

...No they dont. How do you think Russia has deniability over their own mercenaries? You literally don't understand how mercenaries work if you honestly think that.

I've "argued" with ja734 before...it's like talking to a hubristic brick wall. But, RobotCaesar, you're exactly right. The reason you use contract soldiers is either to maintain plausible deniability or for the optics. A mercenary is a contract soldier so the fact that they are Russian is kind of besides the point.

What can you do.

Lament and ridicule.

Now if Russia and China were to join forces... that'd be a much more notable war

Do you have any idea what would happen to China if they stopped trading with the US? The same thing that would happen to us. Total financial collapse. We are a single organism at this point.

With regards to who would come out on top in a conventional, non-nuclear war, I keep seeing this American arrogance that they could crush Russia. This isn’t so much the case though, and it’s a dangerous assumption to make.

If you read interviews with American generals, they don't fancy their chances in a hypothetical land war with Russia in Europe. 

For the past 30-40 years now, America has geared its military for asymmetrical warfare - it simply isn't prepared to fight an enemy as well equipped as itself. America has spent the last fifteen years fighting brutal insurgency wars globally. America has to have the capacity to fight anywhere, anytime, for just about any reason. Russia doesn’t operate like that. The only tactic Russia have ever had, militarily, is in an all-out land war. When it comes to that sort of conflict, their experience (dating from, at minimum, the Civil War to now) is unparalleled. If they tried to run an extended counter-insurgency like America does, they’d do even worse than America. But they’re not. Russia only does one thing, and they do it well. And it’ll take some hefty reorganisation and restructuring until America is ready to engage them on their terms. Russian tanks could simply roll over most of Europe and America would not be able to do much about it.

This is due to a) America's lack of precision guided munitions and the US Army's inability to sustain large troop presences overseas for extended periods of time (cf with erosion of ground combat capability in Afghanistan + Iraq deployments, and if NATO ran short on precision munitions during the Libyan conflict in 2011 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/nato-runs-short-on-some-munitions-in-libya/2011/04/15/AF3O7ElD_story.html?utm_term=.4abfd12a20b3), imagine the issues it (America included) would have against Russia). Furthermore, America's airpower isn't the same as it used to be 10/15 years ago. Many older aircraft are being retired, and the funds that were previously being used to maintain and upgrade them are increasingly being sidelined into the massively over budget, and arguably failing, F-35 program. Also, in a war in Eastern Europe, Russia would presumably be fighting along its own border, and be therefore able to open up new fronts wherever it pleases, making it hard for America + Nato to fight sustained battles. Meanwhile, Russia's use of "Hybrid Warfare" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_warfare) further complicates things in comparison to fighting a traditional enemy with a traditional doctrine. Four Star General Odierno has previously stated that the US would need 60 percent minimum of the Army ready to successfully engage Russia. The US isn't even close to that kind of readiness. The Pentagon estimates that by the end of 2020, the Army will have 33 percent ready.

Also, before you say numbers aren't everything. Well, up to a point... But, during the cold war there were a quarter of a million US troops stationed in Europe. These days, there are 31,000. This is roughly equivalent to the number stationed in South Korea. Is the failed state of North Korea really to be seen as an equivalent threat as Russia? And the US military (not just its garrisons) is ever continuing to shrink.

Sorry about the rambling nature of the comment. I copied it from a YouTube comment I made about a month ago.

Serious question as all that you posted makes sense, which is really fucking scary.

If war with Russia is coming, is the whole collusion/Russia influencing the election bullshit or was this the play all along to keep the perpetual war machine going?

Also, please ping me if you find that smallpox link. I just came across an article where Bill Gates is worried that the next worldwide epidemic will be man made.

I misinterpreted a few articles, I believe. I've linked one of them at the bottom of my main post, however.

They've been were soft-pushing that Russia would influence the election before the election ever happened. Clinton was banging the war drum in the debates. It's been almost 20 years since 9/11 and most people in the U.S. are no longer gung-ho about the war on terror. They've been grooming Russia as the next big enemy for the better part for like the last five years, it really started ramping up with the Syria/ISIS coverage. These are not novel strategies, it's just plain old pro-war propaganda. And, surprise surprise, people are clamoring for it.

How would a war with a Nuclear superpower even work?

Everyone dies or we just plop into the next Cold War. Although has the Cold War really ever ended?

I mean the 90's were a thing, so yes, the Cold War once felt like it would be gone forever.

Not really but there is never a 0% chance of nuclear war while nukes exist. Coldwar just means we are close to a real war.

There was a brief seize fire per say

How would a war with a nuclear superpower even work?

Between TV commercials, you would hear sound bytes from the talking heads dismissively mocking and artificially laughing at each other's insipid drivel as they engage in an orgy of misrepresentation with a straw-man of their own creation...which, naturally, they will refer to as a "conspiracy theory" about a war being underway.

A few seconds later you will see a blinding flash of light and everything dissolves just before it all fades to black.

Georgia Guidestones style.

they hide in bunkers, the rest of us die.

pretty much either you die instantly in the blast radius or die slowly overtime like in the animation film from the 80ties When the wind blows

Who exactly is clamoring for war? We're all pretty tired of wars in general at this point. War with a fellow nuclear super power is a guaranteed loss for both sides. Pretty sure the people of both countries aren't interested in that.

Some of the people in those worldnews posts regarding the recent deaths in Britain by chemical attack. I was surprised to see it.

I don't see it either.

Russia being blamed for anything and everything all the while being called "enemies" that is pretty straight forward stuff.

The attack of anyone who says Russia didn't do anything/isn't that bad/is reacting to sanctions as unamerican is pretty reminiscent of the war on terror bush era

How old are you. Cold war maybe?

The attack of anyone who says Russia didn't do anything/isn't that bad/is reacting to sanctions as unamerican

It's not unamerican to "attack" someone who is willfully ignorant of Russian aggression throughout the world in the last 5 years. They attempted to destabilize our democratic process and institutions, and they succeeded, full stop.

And what happened to "America First" and "If you hit me, I'm hitting you back 10 times as hard"? This kind of shit is why people think the President is a hypocrite, his own intelligence agencies and Congress all say beyond a shadow of a doubt that Russia was doing shady shit to US and Trump is sitting there like a wet fucking noodle whining about the Oscars or some other non-important shit.

I am not an american citizen, but as an outside viewer of the shitstorm of the world today, it seems pretty clear that all the agencies and corporations in your country have different agendas, and most of them are not for humane reasons. And then you get a president who honestly, when comparing him to videos from his talks as a younger man seems to be a grumpy, slightly senile man who probably means well or did at some point, who is now on some crazy power trip... Also your country is as big of an aggressor and has been since the cold war days. Our time has been about america vs russia for a long time and it continues to be.

Russia being blamed for everything? Like annexing a piece of a sovereign country? Or downing a civilian jet? Well sucks that they're being blamed while blameless...

yeah nobody said they were blameless, its just so pervasive that its become a meme, " russia did it ". i was merely addressing why someone would suggest that people are war hungry.

But blaming Russia for actions they've made is not nearly the same thing as clamoring to go to war. Plenty of people to call Russia out on their actions, and for some reason this administration refuses to do that. You can argue they're blaming blamed for everything and made into the bogeyman, but that's a much different claim.

its the calling them the enemy which is the war rhetoric. calling them a bad player isnt incorrect, but framing them like enemies i dont think does any favors to anyone but those who profit off of such rhetoric, which is the premise of the argument here. its been years since there has been a defined "enemy"

they just committed a chemical weapons attack against the united kingdom, and directly attacked US troops in Syria. How on earth could you possibly conclude that they arent the enemy?

its not like there isnt precedent for being attacked by a group and still being cool with them. the israel air attack on that ship for example. israel isnt the "enemy" is it?

they also just killed one of their own spies in the uk, its not like they have groups of people throwing chemicals on people, in public, all the time, like another group which is also not the "enemy" or going around in organized fashion to groom children to be raped, those arent the enemies either.

im just saying if there is a standard, it should be applied equally. it just seems to me that this russia enemy stuff only benefits the rich, and really only affects the poor, normal, everyday humans.

What terrible logic. The isreal thing was officially an accident. There shouldve been more investigation to see if it really was one or not, but you cant declare them an enemy without establishing conclusively that it was a purposeful attack. Also, compensated both the families of the people who died and our government for the damage to the ship. Where is the compensation from Russia? The Russian attack was entirely purposeful, and nobody has even claimed that is wasnt. Are you so anti american that you would just assume that an attack against america was an accident, even when the perpetrator of the attack isnt claiming that it was accidental? Whens the last time you attacked an american military installation on accident? That isnt one of those "whoops, mistakes happen" kind of incidents.

arent they saying it was "mercenaries"? so why would they apologize ? it wasnt the official army doing such things.

The single number one thing that would actually benefit the average everyday person around the world is would be for Putin to die. That is a fact. He is a cancer on the entire world.

power vacuum anyone?

Putin is way worse than any power vacuum.

thats just an opinion, idk, nuclear weapons falling into the hands of a random power grab seems like a bad idea to me, but i guess thats an easy choice for you.

I dont see how a random power grab could result in anyone worse than a former kgb agent. I just really dont.

then youre just not being imaginative.

Putin has already proved himself to be incredibly evil. I guess its theoretically possible that worse ones exist, but youd have to be a fool to think the odds arent worth the risk.

incredibly destructive? in what way? theres no threat of nuclear war, which considering the circumstances would be relatively logical. just because hes bad doesnt mean it couldnt be a thousand times worse. he isnt the worst person on the planet, and dealing with an adversary you know is much easier than trying to guess what the new guy is going to do.

id say the rhetoric you posit is foolish. foolish in the archetypal sense. walking off a cliff without knowing it. even saying that its better than knowing where the edge of cliff is. pretty foolish IMO

and im not going to participate in two comment lines with you, so ill address the other one here: nobody is saying let them get away with it. just that if youre going to get all gung ho and put sanctions on people for such things, it seems a bit uneven. considering theres precedent for other allies attacking troops, with very little repercussions.

other allies

Oh fuck you, you dictator apologist. We let allies get away with mistakes because they are allies. BUT RUSSIA ISNT AN ALLY. Get that through your thick skull. By the way, Putin really is literally the worst person on the planet. Hes the only world leader in recent history to wage an actual war of conquest. Those things literally don't exist anymore in the modern world except the ones he starts. Easily the worst person alive by a mile.

again, youre just not being imaginative. hes the worst person WE KNOW ABOUT.

i dont see how im apologizing for anything, youre just butthurt because im using logic. what kind of person ends up with the power after putin is taken out? a wonderful benevolent one? YEAH RIGHT.

and im sorry but i didnt know palestine existed anymore, no other wars of conquest right?

By comparing our reaction of Russian aggression to our reaction to "other allies" you literally called Russia an ally, and the Palestine thing isnt recent. I think Russia's invasion of Ukraine might be literally the only war of conquest in the 21st century. I could be wrong, but I cant think of another one.

i never literally called anyone an ally? im not sure you know what literally means.

i dont think we should frame them as enemies, if that makes you think i think of them as allies then idk, they are adversaries.

palestine isnt recent? its ongoing.

Yes you did. You didnt say "considering theres precedent for allies attacking troops, with very little repercussions". You said "considering theres precedent for other allies attacking troops, with very little repercussions. That IS literally calling them allies.

It doesnt matter how you want to frame them. They are our enemies. Wishing they werent wont change that. They are trying to destroy NATO. They are trying to consume as much of the former USSR as possible. They are trying to accelerate climate change because it benefits them strategically due to their position in the arctic. Everything action they take is the action of an enemy.

thats fine dude, obviously i was referring to other countries, not russia. i still never called them allies, however when googling it, it seems that they are, or at least theres a reasonable argument to use that term.

obviously anyone sanctioned by nato would want to circumvent that or tear it down. im suprised russia hasnt done more, or made more threats. however frothing at the mouth as if they are enemies isnt helping anything.

like i said previously, the kid who shoots up the school because of bullying is responsible, but i dont think hes entirely to blame. the bullies share some of the culpability. two to tango and whatnot.

you wanna talk like you know everything then why dont you go into politics and rectify this stuff by warring with the enemy? im saying its much more nuanced than how you describe it and isnt helping the citizens of russia, yknow the ones without any power to do anything. the premise of this conversation is that this type of extremist rhetoric only helps the people at the top and doesnt do anything for the poor, normal humans just living day to day.

And what difference does it make if it was mercenaries? Its still the Russian government giving the orders.

its the difference between having to publicly apologize for said actions and not.

Only if we allow them to get away with it. Why are you in favor of that?

Crimea has historically been part of Russia and the Crimean people voted to join Russia after the West, including Chief Warhawk John McCain allied with the Neo Nazi Right Sector in the 2014 coup. The people had the choice to ask for Russia's help or face attacks by paramilitaries looking to cleanse Ukraine of Ruskies.

And there has been no proof that the missile that knocked the jet out of the sky was fired by Russians.

Russia being blamed for anything and everything all the while being called "enemies" that is pretty straight forward stuff

I guess you don't remember the 50s, 60s, 70s, or most of the 80s, because that went on for literally decades without resulting in a hot war.

yeah but that rhetoric definitely enabled politicians to spend and pass whatever legislation frivolously, similar to 911 which is the premise of the argument.

Especially if this time, the legislation is to declare war on Russia. Not much we can do though. Plant more crops, I guess. Build greenhouse dome and tunnel cities. Hunker down and weather the storm.

well its not like the politicians are so fired up, especially trump... its more media and the population, i imagine any kind of sanctions that ultimately fuck the citizens of russia, rather than the russian politicians would be applauded by the masses. also garners easy political points if everyone is frothing at the mouth, a politician could be terrible, but they are against the "enemy" and therefore get more support than they deserve.

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problem is, russia is the reason for a lot of shit happening these past few months/years. It is not like they are being made a scapegoat, they bring this shit upon themselves.

but by the same argument you could say that the stuff that is happening isnt suprising considering theyve been brutally sanctioned for quite a long time, its not unreasonable for them to do things to try and loosen these restrictions on the economy and trade. of course im not saying there is no culpability but its not like its completely unforseen. it takes two to tango so to speak.

if the kid who is bullied his whole life comes to school with a gun and shoots everyone, i dont think its entirely his fault, however he is clearly responsible, there is blame to be shared for the circumstances leading up to that event.

There isn't a single post in the military or donald subs supporting going to war with russia. They know full well what a 5th generation war between superpowers means for our planet and the human race. Anything you are seeing is coming the news and parroted by simpletons. I wouldn't know I don't watch it.

All they did was post ads for both sides, memes for both sides, and pay people to lead violent riots with the left. We've done precisely that to them with Boris Yeltzins election.

Actions like these do not lead to war. Unless one side is planning a sneak attack, there's just no grounds for it whatsoever.

If any country has been getting groomed for war it is Iran and N Korea. We have had ample reasons to invade Russia but nothing. We have actively been attacking Iran with Israel

and ukraine. Don't forget the ukraine.

Hillary's hawkish stance on Russia was one of my major reasons for voting for Trump. I know we're in a Trump-hating thread, but if the deep state was geared up, the collusion angle might be a play at convincing Americans to go for it.

Theres the issue though. I don't think the war is going to be US vs Russia. Its going to be Trump and Putin vs the world.

You can also reason that both China and NK are a part of it too. I think that if there is any intent for war, that it will be a collaboration of powerful authoritarian leadership around the world.

Either this is a PR stunt for more support (obviously mis-educated liberals would like the idea of war on Russia), or it is the beginning of a new attempt for world domination.

I guarantee the steel tariffs were meant to win the pennsylvania special election. All the steel workers there probably will benefit from it.

I thought both candidates supported them.

The dem candidate probably jumped on board too because it would have been political suicide not to in a state filled with steel workers.

I live just outside of PA-18. Only thing I've heard is that Saccone threw some crap towards right-to-work and lost the unions at that point. I don't remember any flips or hesitation from Lamb.

And apparently Lamb won, wow.

How would they benefit from it? Only the corporations and stock holders would benefit.

Came here from another sub, but the logic is as follows: Imposing tariffs on foreign steel makes it more expensive. As a result there will be more demand for domestic steel because their competition just got more pricey. Therefor domestic steel companies will move to increase production to meet the rising demand. This creates jobs in the steel industry.

That's the "logic" but its vacuous.

Growth is not made upon raw material extraction but rather higher level value adding. The tariff may slightly increase production of steel, but we will lose production of things made with steel. The net result of the tariff will be that jobs move overseas.

Yes that is not the point here tho because we saw that after the Bush steel tariffs about 200k jobs were lost which is more than all the jobs in the steel industry combined. But, the steel industry itself will grow, which means steel workers will benefit.

I am making it a point here because, although your analysis was fine, it may be used to point people in the wrong direction.

If we merely present that steel jobs increase, we may logically conclude that the tariffs are good for workers in America. I replied to make sure people don't draw that conclusion. :)

Corporations and stock holders aka the deciders of elections.

Dude there are barely any steel workers here anymore. Especially low in Pittsburgh. US Steel suffered big the past few years.

There aren't many steel workers anywhere, it's meant to win over the people that like the idea of supporting steel, including former workers and their relatives. And I'm willing to bet there are still a lot of folks like that in rural Pittsburgh.

Some, but most of us here are pretty awake to the fact it’s dead here. I hear where you are coming from though I would assume the same about that demographic here.

The steel tariffs are clearly aimed at increasing steel production in the US before a massive war

Why tf is this being downvoted??

Probably my piss-poor sourcing. It's a work in progress :(

After a second read, I know why.

There's really no point in saying you come here to make fun of everyone...

Ignorance is bliss, I suppose.

Anyway, thanks for putting the sources together

Ah, ok, I was just implying maybe I shouldn't do that. I'll scrap that line, though. Thank you.

Haha, one of us, one of us.

That's all it takes though, one self-researched theory and you start to question other perceived truths. That same analysis is applied to conspiracies pushed by others. You have to weed through the bullshit by doing your own research, unfortunately there is no such thing as an objective conspiracy, because then it's a truth, right? Digest as much information as possible!

I think your findings warrant their own post, btw.

Its a good list. I have had similar feelings a while now.

I think its all just cause and effect. Though the just blame Russia for anything is painting them the devil. Which means they are setting up a big play....

Because you never risk backing a wounded animal in a corner...

There's one country tied to a religion with a end of days prophecy who has a thing for engineering their prophecies into fruition through their own actions.

So really the worlds gonna end one day it is know.

Russia just said they would respond to ANY aggression with nuclear retaliation. I highly doubt war with Russia.

It's blatantly obvious at this point from an objective point of view, but good luck discussing this with anyone who've been used to nothing but "peace" for the past 70 years.

The question is; this summer? The next? Do we get a warning?

Only time will tell.

A trend that's been going on for a while now is Russia and China have been dumping their dollars/us treasuries in lieu of gold. I'm talking large scale dumping. Analysts have talked about it being a reserve currency play, but to anyone who studies history, it smells like the early stages of war. The question is, does it remain cold or heat up?

• doomsday clock was set to 2 minutes to midnight in January 2018

• Elon Musk wants to colonize Mars to preserve human race in case of global conflict

I don't agree - the worst thing that happened to the military industrial complex was the collapse of the USSR, because without them there really was no excuse for the huge military spending.

Now that Russia is back on its feet, they're happy to go back to playing the old paradigm - constant fear and hype to justify piping national funds into Lockheed-Martin & friends.

I don't think it's anything more than that, and I think everyone involved, including Russia, is pretty ok with this. Having a Great Evil abroad makes the domestic population much more compliant, which is a mutual benefit for all the governments involved.

The fall of the USSR wasnt quite as bad for the defense industry as people think.

They had a few rough years, but it wasnt long before they came up with a policy for a new american century by rebuilding america's defenses. The process of transformation was sped up by a catastrophic and catylizing event that was like a new pearl harbor.

I know exactly the event you're referring to.

Joking aside, while I agree, I think people started calling BS pretty quickly - even by ~2008 people were starting to get really fed-up with endless sand wars. In contrast, the USSR provided ample threat for nearly half a century.

Those on the left were fed up with the bs long before 2008. The right still fully supported the wars back then. They only began to start losing interest in it around that time and that was mainly becuase they were distracted by the financial meltdown going on.

claps

That's why I subscribed to this sub. I always believed on it, but I thought I was the only.

One thing though, and i hope i am wrong; When you play the game of treathening each other, eventually someone will flinch and hit for real. There are also far more parties involved in this game today than back in the original cold war.. The geopolitical map is rapidly gearing up to an east vs west situation, and it looks ugly..

the cold war called. they want their foreign policy back

Not to mention the current try to gun grab of the people also going on! They have to make us disarmed. So when we lose the war to Russia and they set soldiers on US soil we'll be helpless.

The US had been planning for this war you speak of since way before Trump got in. He just had to be made aware of the fact that he doesn't have a day in it. He's coming in board.

My friend, you are late to this game. And unfortunately, there are some things you should be aware of. First, however, I want to tell you that you are right about war. I called it in 2000 with W. His objective was to take 7 countries that do not have a western controlled central bank (Imf, world Bank, Rothschild bank). He failed. Obama continued the work in terms of Libya and Syria. Remember, ghaddafi wanted to replace the petro dollar with gold to value the Libyan dinar. Of those seven, three still survive;n. Korea, Syria, and Iran. Syria is in shambles, n. Korea is preparing talks, and Iran is trying to help Syria. This, unlike wwi, will be the war to end all wars. The American people have failed to stop the corruption and as such have failed the world.

I, personally, welcome this war. I hope the petro dollar loses.

Hey part you left out as the UK nerve agent attacks actually happened within a few miles vicinity of the UK’s stockpile of the weapons

How would that work if Trump is supposedly in Putins pocket?

Hey the cables they are nosing around? Not exactly what you think.

These are the cables that the American navy and now intelligence agencies use to survey all vessels in the oceans.

They constantlysend vessels around them to flood them with noise

Russia is going to win. Because we are run by clowns.

I would say hardening and restricting access to government movements is necessary regarding past carelessness. We are probably gearing up for generalized asymmetrical warfare.

Thank you for clarifying, Honestly, thank you!

And Putin said when it comes to election meddling, you might want to look at the Jews

I don't know... Why?

He got fired because he got in the way of invading Iran.

Agree, theres also failing to deliver a half a trillion dollar Exxon-Rosneft oil deal which died two weeks ago in there too.

He got fired because he got in the way of invading Iran.

Don't you think that's precisely the kind of thing Israel would have him removed for? It's their war he was mucking up.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/trump-uae-rex-tillerson-fire-qatar-support-united-arab-emirates-middle-east-emails-a8242411.html

The Israeli's demanded Syria be taken care of first before the globalists take out Iran.

The Syrian war is lost. Assad isn't going to fall.

He got fired because the Russian Exxon deal collapsed last week. Since that’s the only reason he was hired, they let him go.

"Rex, you had one job!"

Saudi Arabia is not here yet. That's next week, the crown prince himself.

I don't know... why genius... Tell us everything you know tell us! I'm sure you know deep dark secrets about Trump and his administration and his thinking and motivations. I wouldn't be surprised at all if you were there during the meetings with the Saudis or Tillerson... Tell us, tell us everything

Because he was trying to save the "Iran Deal" without Trump's permission.

CIA boss+ Ascension to Sec. of State = Iran War

The timing was coincidental, he opposed Trump on several policies already. If you think he fires people for attacking Russia, why does Nikki Haley and Sarah Huckabee still have their jobs?

Yeah, unfortunately, it's just a minority of r/conspiracy traffic that is the loudest and politics is just unavoidable as of the past two years. That's all anyone ever talks about anymore, and it's never about the real political issues. It's either Trump should be impeached or Hillary is crooked. That's it. Not saying either is wrong, but how about pointing out the the mainstream dems pulled a victory right out from under Sanders. How about discuss why the two party system is corrupt and broken. Talk about how we're actually in a monarchy where money is king?

I'm sick of it. It's here, it's the rest of Reddit, it's Twitter, Facebook, off the internet...everywhere. Just a bunch of sheep talking about whatever garbage the msm feeds them.

how about pointing out the the mainstream dems pulled a victory right out from under Sanders.

That was Hillary. If the choice was between Sanders and Trump, I think people would have voted for Sanders. With the choice being Hillary or Trump, people hate Hillary so much they voted against Hillary (not so much for Trump).

This means that the single person most responsible for Trump is in fact, Hillary.

I did think this was fairly well understood by most people by now

The middle class would not have voted for the biggest peacetime tax increase in American history. Particularly not in 2016. Trump would have painted Bernie as an ineffective career politician and a member of the establishment, which compared to Trump he was. Bernie would have lost worse than Hillary, and Trump wouldn't have even had to mention socialism.

If Hillary had won it would just be Saudi Arabia pulling the puppet strings...The state of our Democracy is a joke...and it is all of you that skip Primaries and then choose the lesser of two evils at the end that are doing it.

Hey, if we're getting puppet figure heads either way... I'd rather have the one actually hiring government employee qualified for their positions and that actually try to keep our country running properly.

Trump or Hillary, doesn't matter. But how they represent us and the people they bring into top positions do matter and Trump has fucked up both of those things worse than we imagined back in 2016

Honestly Hillary just blew it. Every week Trump would something controversial that would knock any other presidential candidate out of the race, and yet he still managed to win.

I mean, Clinton didn't do unusually bad for a Democrat or whatever, and with the slightest tweak of Trump's victories in one or two of those middle states, he would have lost & the narrative would have been that Trump never really stood a chance.

Republicans have gotten real lucky with their 'winning despite losing the popular vote' thing in recent elections.

Good thing she disappeared from the public eye. If people had caught on to this a year ago, she'd not have had time to get away or burn down part of her estate lol

The only reason people were anti hillary is because the right wing scream machine,added by the russians, have spent decades smearing her with mostly baseless accusations of wrong doing.

I have to say- its refreshing to hear that many on the right are starting to realize the boys crying wolf are full of shit. A little late,but better late then never.

Sanders would have easily won. The Dems played themselves, and not a small chunk of the reason was because they thought the majority of the US were so mindnumbingly retarded that they'd vote Clinton solely on the strength that she's a woman. That everyone would be just so swept up and taken by the idea of The First Woman President™. Boomers were the ones who would largely vote face value garbage reasons while being utterly uninformed to anything substantial, and as the toddlers on the Hyper Left are so fond of reminding everyone, the Boomers are dying out. Fucking irony.

Anyone who believes that the DNC had any measurable impact on Bernie's ability to win that primary is a sheep themselves. He lost by 3 million votes. He lost that primary on Super Tuesday. The only reason he was able to see the election through to the primary was because he was financed by small contributions, AKA people who couldn't see which way the wind was blowing. Corporate donors would have abandoned him when he dipped below a 200 pledged delegate deficit. That happened long before any of the alleged fuckery by the DNC.

Continuing to insist that Bernie lost the election for any other reason than the incompetence of his own campaign is doing nothing but setting up future progressives for failure. How about doing a legitimate post-mortem instead? Maybe look at the fact that Bernie failed utterly to garner support from minorities? Or how about the fact that the only contests he was able to consistently win were caucuses? Yeah, you're right though. It's all the DNC's fault. What a joke.

Can't rig a caucus.

Caucuses are inherently undemocratic and restrictive. Anyone who wants to increase fairness and representation in primary elections should be anti-caucus.

Do you believe the dnc gave them both a fair chance?

Do you believe that they didn't? Can you tell me how exactly they hurt Bernie? Even if they were biased from the beginning, in what way did that actively damage his chances of winning? The burden of proof isn't on me to prove that he was treated fairly, it's on anyone who claims that he wasn't. Most of the accusations leveled against the DNC during the primary didn't make any sense or wouldn't have effectively harmed Bernie. Other accusations (e.g. closed primaries) were leveled at aspects of the primary process that have existed for decades.

They usually have many debates during the primaries. But I know the DNC heavily cut down on almost all the debates, and scheduled them at inconvenient times, like Thanksgiving. There's a few other things of this nature. There wasn't actually any actual rigging, but things the DNC were perfectly in their power to do to hinder Sanders and support Clinton. Let's not forget that a good number of people resigned from the DNC over this stuff.

They fed Clinton the debate questions ahead of time.

There's a Podesta email that stated that Bernie didn't stick to his agreement. That's good conspiracy fodder right there.

The DNC WON IN COURT, THE RIGHT TO RIG THE PRIMARY ELECTIONS.

The DNC doesn't even have to hold a primary election. They're a private organization. In theory they could put forth a candidate that wasn't even on the primary ticket. The only thing that ensures the primary process is their own bylaws. Primaries weren't even widely accepted until 1968. If that's an issue then you should be moving to legislate the nomination process out of the hands of the parties themselves and into the hands of state or federal committees, not getting outraged over a court deciding that a party has a right that it's always had by definition.

The problem is that it's not just Sanders. It's anyone who doesn't have money, and that's my point.

If you don't own at least a few million dollars that you can put into your campaign (and turn heads of the major corporations, and pay off key people)...and as president, if you're not going to do your part to ensure the millionaires' bank accounts are safe (ie cut medical industry costs, raise taxes on the rich, do stuff for the low man on the totem pole), you're never going to make it. It can be Sanders, it can be Paul from a decade ago, it can be Joe Schmo...the conspiracy here (and what I'm fed up with) is that the system is rigged to keep the bigwigs in office because money is king.

But no, every average person in America: "Donald Trump is the worst...Clinton would've fixed everything." Nope.

Obama said a lot of things about helping the citizens, things didn't change that much. Whether it's at the presidential level or not, things all over the government are messed up. Obama even slammed expensive healthcare on people who couldn't afford it...that's not helping anyone financially except for the healthcare industry...go figure.

Anyway, I'm going off topic. Sanders is just the latest and easiest example of the point I'm trying to make: Good people won't get into office, even with tons more effort into the campaign. They need money that they just don't have, and they're constantly blocked by people who are simple-minded afraid to vote for anything other than democrats or republicans.

It's cuz its not real people's opinions, its paid shills on both sides.

I hope y'all can see that there's a huge real conspiracy right now--the Trump administration.

I mean, this sub has basically chosen to completely ignore one of, if not the biggest conspiracies in American history: our president may be compromised by a foreign government. This sub isn't about conspiracies anymore, unless they're about Jews, Muslims, or liberals doing something bad.

This sub also plays some sort of role as an alternative media. If you want Russia conspiracy theories, just get a cable subscription.

Also, honestly I think the fact that the mainstream media discusses Russian conspiracies so openly is a bit of a red flag and leads a lot of us to assume it's some combination of lies, misdirection, and obfuscation.

Also, honestly I think the fact that the mainstream media discusses Russian conspiracies so openly is a bit of a red flag and leads a lot of us to assume it's some combination of lies, misdirection, and obfuscation.

This is fallacious reasoning. The reason it's discussed so much is because it's actually ~that~ blatant that he's a Russian puppet. To be honest, I don't know what he could do to make it any more obvious.

If any other politician of either side who, wasn't so bombastic and openly absurd were to have found to have half the trump's scandals involving Russia would have been seriously pinned already. This is what a cult of personality gets you, people making exceptions for awful behavior and hurtful decision making because they feel they have the "sacred science" , already discussed decades ago by Robert lifton

Steve hassan has something similar in his attributes of thought reform/mind control. Thought reform is exactly what Trump uses. His language and wording drips with it.
https://freedomofmind.com/bite-model/

I honestly have yet to hear anything convincing that would explain why or how Trump is acting on behalf of Russia. Are the shills making their way onto r/conspiracy now? We're listening to Viacom media now? Cool

Are the shills making their way onto r/conspiracy now?

"Everyone who doesn't agree with me is a shill."

Wow man, you're acting like you didn't make 5+ comments on a singular r/politics of late thread consisting solely of "Nice try, Russian name."

I sincerely think you are a troll, Russian or otherwise.

Nothing to explain why?

Meaning, why Russia would want to effect a US election? You really can't use that conspiracy-filled brain to think of any reason why they would want that?

As for how? How what? How do they keep Trump on their side or how did they influence the election?

why Russia would want to effect a US election?

Yes, this is obvious to the point that it's not a conspiracy. No one seems to have a problem with Israel massively influencing US politics? Am I missing something here?

The Russians posted some stuff on social media. That's the big thing, right? They posted shitty memes on Twitter. Whoa dude. Just hack my elections up.

This thread has a completely different tone than this sub usually has. 100% being botted/invaded/whatever.

You really can't use that conspiracy-filled brain to think of any reason why they would want that?

Sentences like this just don't get posted on here. Whatever, RIP r/conspiracy

They committed cyber crimes, laundered money, and have assassinated numerous people connected to this story. Any attempt to collude with the Russia State in these actions is conspiracy to commit espionage, Conspiracy to commit fraud, and/or accessory to murder.

You know they did it mostly for Hillary in the election

Am I missing something here?

Apparently. The conspiracy is that Trump is trying to hide his connections to Russia, not that Russia is trying to influence the US.

The Russians posted some stuff on social media. That's the big thing, right? They posted shitty memes on Twitter. Whoa dude. Just hack my elections up.

"Russia, find those emails plz?" - Trump

"No prob mate, here ya go" - Russia

"Thanks, this will distract nicely from the Billy Bush Bang Bus story" - Trump

Secret meetings, money changing hands, favors going back and forth. This is Conspiracy101.

People protest, immediately assume a conspiracy where Soros is paying protesters. Trump asks for Russian help, has secret meetings, constantly lies about them, but no conspiracy.

Solid conspiracy consistency.

Sentences like this just don't get posted on here. Sentences that mock you? Sorry for hurting your feelings.

Were we supposed to be under the impression that major politicians are corrupt? I just don't understand...Trump being in bed with a foreign country is disappointing, not an interesting conspiracy. It's just more of the same.

Corruption and getting a foreign government to help you win an election are not equivalent

This thread has a completely different tone than this sub usually has. 100% being botted/invaded/whatever.

I am thinking the same thing.

The Russian "hacking", "meddling", "meme warfare" narrative must not be catching onas well as they had hoped.

I honestly believe that all of this effort on part of the media and the DNC is to pin Trump's win on Russia. It is being done to avoid the cold haed truth which is that they fucked up. They don't want people pinning Clinton's loss on a rigged primary or on a media which continually them that she was the most qualified candidate in history and couldn't possibly lose to anyone. Because that sort of truth would erode the public's trust in the DNC and the news media. It's even harder to admit that if Clinton hadn't essentially bought her nomination, that Sander's probably would have won. And since the media was complicit in downplaying him all through the primary, they don't want people to focus on that either.

So all they talk about is Trump and how he must be a Russian puppet who got a bunch of bots on twitter to help him win the election.

You got it. It's not Russia that interferes, it's Israel.

America has been compromised by a foreign government for decades, only now they are using a code word for Israel, ie. Russia.

The two biggest threads today were anti-Trump. Anti-Trump information gets plenty of views here. The problem is that many people don't realize it. I've seen countless comments upvoted to the sky, occasionally guided, posting anti-Trump information. Sometimes they say "This sub is completely controlled by Trump supporters," yet they are upvoted and guilded. You would expect the lightbulb to go off in their head, but I guess not.

A small list of big anti-Trump threads that many people here pretend don't exist, and this is just what I could find from a quick search. There are recent threads and some going back to a year ago. This sub has always had big anti-Trump threads.

But you have to search for it. This thread has over 3000 up-votes and is no where to be seen on /r/conspiracy. How do you explain it being buried so quickly.

It's the first post on the front page of r/conspiracy.

WTF? Why am I not seeing in the HotPost section?

They're downvoting you for not following the narrative that is being pushed.

That this place is unabashedly pro-Trump and no longer discusses real conspiracies.

Pointing out that criticisms of Trump are in fact common place and conspiracies about him are trending, don't fit in with the agenda.

See, someone wants people to stop visiting this subreddit so they are trying to make it seem unpalatable to average users. How do they do that? Again, they push a narrative that the subreddit is comprised and that only Trump supporters post here.

They're downvoting you for not following the narrative that is being pushed.

That this place is unabashedly pro-Trump and no longer discusses real conspiracies.

Pointing out that criticisms of Trump are in fact common place and conspiracies about him are trending, don't fit in with the agenda.

See, someone wants people to stop visiting this subreddit so they are trying to make it seem unpalatable to average users. How do they do that? Again, they push a narrative that the subreddit is compromised and that only Trump supporters post here.

Yeah I really don't get this. This sub, well before Trump, has always had low-effort posts with Fox News articles and slightly higher-effort posts with really unsavory racial stuff. It's like, ignore that and look for the good information. Parse through it and think critically, y'know?

I see way more of these, "This sub is totally compromised, TD2.0, bastion of the alt-right" self-posts than the actual content they claim is filling up the sub, not to mention they always say something like, "go ahead and downvote" and they are rarely, if ever, not so highly voted that they don't make the front page. I'd argue that these posts are actually counter-productive to the stated goal of getting people to see information from more diverse sources. Really just kinda creates a space for people to argue about nothing, or at most they argue about their perception, which is inherently subjective and therefore impossible to come to any sort of consensus on.

Which kind of gives me the vibe that actually discussing or researching anything isn't really the poster's intent...

The down votes aren't making your point for you or anything.....

Are you joking? Surely this is a joke post? Your Presidents have always been compromised by a foreign government. Or do you mean compromised by a foreign government that isn't the United Kingdom banking cartel, headed by the Queen and the families of Rothschild?

Ever since day fucking one this has been the case. George Washington (British btw) was just the figurehead the British establishment gave you. All those stories of 'daring do' are total bullshit, a fully concocted story for Americans to believe.

Go and look at how Washington really rose to power. Who were his competition? What happened to them? hint. they all died. Washington was a huge Freemason - he was doing what he was fucking told!

Lol.

Washington: The Indispensable Man

Great, so we should just let it happen when we might have a chance to change it?

has always been compromised

wait for it

rothschild

there it is!

The house Senate committee found no collusion, haven't you been following the news?

The Republican House committee declared no collision. The Democratic side came out and said there was. One of the Republican members then came out and said it was embarrassing that they had made that declaration, and the investigation has not finished, there were signs of collision and interference and thank goodness the Senate was still working.

Well it's been 14 months, the whole narrative is getting a little embarrassing don't ya think?

No idea what you are referring to, but investigations don't go quick.

Whitewater and Watergate took many years. Benghazi was investigated for a long time. This is just getting started. As far as Mueller's investigation, it is going faster and has more indictments/guilty pleas than other investigations on this level.

"We have investigated ourselves and have cleared ourselves of any wrongdoing."

: our president may be compromised by a foreign government.

Basically everything that has been claimed in the last year and a half over this has amounted to jack squat. First it was acts of war, then vague 'meddling', then, finally, some random-ass facebook ads.

The only way to determine that it's amounted to jack squat is to be willfully ignorant of what's going on.

If that's how you choose to live, I hope you one day wake up and see the light.

The only way to determine that it's amounted to jack squat is to be willfully ignorant of what's going on.

So what evidence has establishes concretely that The Kremlin committed acts of war against the US?

Since it's not my job to educate:

https://www.reddit.com/r/RussiaLago/

If you can't explain it concisely, you don't understand it and shouldn't be regurgitating it.

There's a difference between can't and won't. My New Years resolution was to not suffer this brand of "hand feed everything to me or I'm going to continue to ignore the facts" foolishness anymore, sorry.

Good luck in your quest to educate yourself, though!

That's because you are running wild with speculation and don't have any actual facts to cite.

Again, it's not my job to educate you. But, since you're just so persisten, I'd suggest taking a look at the top post on /r/all right now. Loaded with info for you to read through.

How does that support the ridiculous claims about an act of war by Russia on the US?

I see you're taking the "deliberately obstuse" route. Right on.

I've learned a long time ago, don't bother with the willfully ignorant. they're willfully ignorant for a reason

I mean, this sub has basically chosen to completely ignore one of, if not the biggest conspiracies in American history: our president may be compromised by a foreign government.

Russia hacking/meddling the American election is the dumbest conspiracy, Podesta and some anti-Trump higher ups at the FBI came up with that shit.

This sub isn't about conspiracies anymore, unless they're about Jews, Muslims, or liberals doing something bad.

On the other hand Israel is influencing American elections on both sides thanks to AIPAC and other lobbies.

I don't love sticklers, but I think this is the appropriate sub to correct your spelling of conspiracies

done.

/r/conspiracyundone

Sort by

Top to see the narrative being pushed.

Controversial for an argument.

New for actual conspiracy theories.

I see what you mean. But i'm just speaking my mind.

I just like to tell people when they think the sub has taken a nosedive or has been flooded or AstroTurfed.

:)

ConspiracyII

Most people here aren't, even tough they try to paint it as such. It's pretty odd that this sub is always accused of being T_D 2.0 yet posts like this are always upvoted and criticism of Obama, shareblue or antifa are downvoted to oblivion.

There's hordes of shills coming from the other direction as well. This is likely to get downvoted as a result.

Trump was the new "change" that the deep state orchestrated. Hillary was getting too much dirt along with a lot of the former staff.

So they led the people to believe that they were supporting an outsider who is against the establishment. But he was working for them all along. He is continueing the same shit in Syria now. We are fucked. Say hello to the NWO...

There were a couple of russian oligarchs getting iced in Brittan this week. One used nerve gas and I dare say I heard mention that there is an 'open secret' massive allied stash of nerve gas nearby where the attack took place.

Kim & Trump call eachother Madman and Lunatic respectively, which nicely highlights the work of Stone in shaping the political dialogue.

I think if you enjoy a good conspiracy; all of the above amounts to pretty amazing political theatre.

This is the new narrative that is being pushed, huh?

So much brigading

the experienced people were saying this before the elections (see my post history).

remember to try inform people next election. :D they own everything.

https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/7z4359/the_core_conspiracy_simplified_stay_focused_as/

Seriously man, it's nothing but fucking Politics. Kind of annoying. Mods need to start deleting threads.

You want a conspiracy

Op thinks posting anti trump shit is unpopular

Yep. And the cross-post on Trumpgret hit r/all, portraying this entire sub as alt right.

Just another day in the disinfo mill...

It's not dying, its actually thriving and changing. This is likely due to the influx of normies who are waking up and the bots/shills that follow.

Maybe the overall content that appeals to the veterans is deteriorating but this is hardly a bad thing in the big picture.

Totally saw the lie from a mile away during the elections as well. Just a rich guy running on a right wing populist message.

But i agree, this sub is slowly dying. I miss the real conspiracies

This sub turned to shit at the same as r/politics, two anti-Trump circle jerks.

A lot of people here know that a lot of those narratives of Trump being a hero are just psyops. It's just that they keep trying to brainwash new users into following them.

Same buddy! No ones even talking about that voicemail thats been circulating of NATO code. How is it trending on twitter yet hasnt even been brought up here... Could be totally fake but its just strange no ones talking about it

I get what you are saying but it was worth a shot. The choice between her (known deep state) or him (possible deep state) the choice was clear. But if it sounds too good to be true it's too good to be true. Bout to order that Rosetta stone Russian and Chinese edition.

and they are talking about Russia meddling in elections! :-)

Whatever you say shill. (((Account was made during October of the last election cycle. Nothing suspicious there)))

MORE TRUMP SMEARING PROPAGANDA WOOO, THEYRE TOTALLY GONNA TURN ON HIM NOW.

Fuck you.

M A G A

Beats the shit outta me. These guys're deluded. You didn't reach the point of no return unlike them. So good job!

Fuck off traitor

You're literally at -20 right now.

Its pretty clear that people are turning

Its pretty clear that reddit votes are reality

It was pretty clear that Donald Trump had no chance of being president, according to the scientific data that is reddit karma.

Also, sort by new. Sort by new in rpolitics threads.

It is clear that people are turning, and thats why you guys are getting so desperate the past 2 weeks.

Enjoy the show

lol.................................. . . .. . . . . .. . . . ......

Fuck you too

YOU were sold a lie, and this post proves youre still buying it.

I never voted Trump, i just think he is a strong wrench thrown into a gearbox. If you expected him to be exactly what he said he was, i hate to say this... but i would think that naive.

The most ypu could ever hope for with a Populist Celeb like Trump, is just to shake things up

Oh he's doing things different, all right. Even Grant wasn't this incompetent & blatantly corrupt.

He speaks the truth. I hate to admit it as I was quite excited to see what a businessman could do for a country, but he's turned out to be the same as the rest.

The whole thing's just some psychedelic panto to keep us all entranced and busy thinking about the show instead of what's really going on of course I knew this, but, still.... There's got to be someone who's not corrupt somewhere, right?

He does NOT speak the truth. It's been proven time and again he is a straight up liar.

He speaks the truth as people want it to be and think it is in their ignorant echochambers.a

Who is 'he' in your context?

i think he just speaks what people want to hear, it changes by day

b-b-but hillary and the emails!!!!

maga! xDD

This is exactly what Trump supporters do. Deflect. This is how conversations go with them. This is word for word how it went the other day:

Me: What do you think about Stormy Daniels and the hush agreement? Them: Nothing compared to Hillary and Pizzagate. Her organization is directly responsible for child sex trafficking! Me: Wasn't the whole Comet Pizza thing mostly debunked? Them: That's what the democrats will tell you. Wait. Are you a Democrat? Me: No. I don't like either party. It polarizes people. Them: Me neither! That's why I voted for Trump. He isn't a politician. Me: Well, he is the president. I think by definition that makes him a polit... Them: Not a normal one, though! Me: Maybe not, but what do you think about Stormy Daniels, though?
Them: Who cares. That porn star slut just wants more money.
Me: Well doesn't Trump just want more money too? Them: He is the most charitable president we have ever had. Me: What charities does he donate to? Them: I don't know the names, but he does. You voted for Hillary didn't you? Me: I didn't vote. They both seemed fairly awful. Them: If you didn't vote then you can't talk about politics. Sigh

You really should have voted though....

It's a personal choice. Who do I vote for when there is nobody I really can honestly endorse? Do I settle? That seems dishonest to me. Yes, I do believe voting is somewhat participatory, but if there was somebody I truly wanted to be president I would probably vote. I have voted for municipal elections and other ballots, but presidency is different. I don't even like the idea of somebody having that much power. I know this isn't a popular opinion. If American politics were different, maybe I would feel differently. The way I think about it is similiar to asexuality. Most everything on the planet has sex and humans can mostly agree that it feels good and everyone should do it. Then there are a select amount that don't like it. It isn't good for them. It doesn't make them feel good. That is how I feel about voting. I voted when I was 18 and never did again. I felt shitty about it. I felt like I lied to myself for the lesser of two evils. I didn't like feeling like that. I didn't feel good. I think about voting and I still feel that way. I would rather not feel that way and I reserve that right.

Yeah but if you're not voting for the lesser of two evils, then you're essentially voting for the greater evil to win because you're increasing the odds of that by not voting for the lesser of two evils.

Maybe it's just me but I'd feel more shitty letting a greater evil win when I could have done something to help stop it. Even if the "lesser evil" still isn't great, there's still less harm being done.

I can relate to what you are saying and do not disagree with your feelings on the subject. This is a conundrum. For me, it is a lose-lose situation. If both candidate's evil is quantifiable then there is no good choice. When everybody lies their way to the top and says whatever they need to in order to get elected, how are you supposed to know who is the lesser of two evils? By who lie is better or who is better at lying? How do we know that Hillary, if she would have been elected, wouldn't of thrown us off the deep end and we would be in equal or even more shit if she was in office than we are in now? I think that would be difficult to do, but she clearly wasn't a saint, either.

If you're not sure, then you should look into it more and do more research. Something as important as who controls the United States should elicit you to care enough to become knowledgeable and vote for your conscience based on your research.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that Hillary is not nearly as bad as everyone claims she is, because I actually read up on her a lot and found out that she's actually a very good politician who has made some honest mistakes. You could say that it's a conspiracy itself that everyone makes Hillary out to be a demon worshipper after decades of propaganda focused on demonizing her.

Whereas literally every single thing I read about Trump or people who have done business with him, all pointed to him being a complete and total dickbag. I'm not going to sugarcoat it. By all accounts he's just a straight up, grade A, shitty human being.

Hey that's a very fair point! I won't deny it one bit. I wish I had a more positive outlook on American politics. I do have some problems trusting a lot of media and when the candidates are allowed to have their hands in the pockets of the media, it makes every source or headline feel suspect to me. I do research, watch all the debates, read whatever I can, etc. Maybe Hillary wasn't as bad as all of the propaganda claims. That is very possible, but there is definitely some truth in all of the claims. The problem is you can't trust the candidates or the people reporting on them. The experts on the candidates have their own motives and self-interest in mind. They are paid to say the things they say. I know that I don't like Trump. He is misogynistic, obviously idiotic as you can see by his own speeches and using social media as a platform to voice his opinions in tweets. He lies so often he can't keep what he says straight. He is everything you don't want in a person with power.

This is absolutely thw biggest issue with the two party system.

Downvotes on a sub that promotes free thinking on a subject that is a personal choice in a thread where most everybody is saying the sub has gone to shit...self-fulfilling prophecy?

That conversation ain't shit, you should have a conversation with a Hillary supporter or a liberal. 1000x worse.

Me: Maybe not, but what do you think about Stormy Daniels, though?

Them: Who cares.

I have to wholeheartedly agree to this much. Seriously. Given what the world is going through right now, who cares if Donald Trump had sex with a pornstar and paid her to keep quiet?

Ooh you don't get it. Well for one Stormy and Trump care. Their lawyers probably care quite a bit. The American public should care because sleeping with a porn star while your wife is pregnant along with other mysoginistc behavior as in talking about grabbing girls by the pussy isn't very presidential behavior. Not to mention the irony of the Republican party always talking about how family values are important and their fearless leader is doing things like this. It's just locker room talk, though, right? Making tons of implications that you want to have sex with your own daughter. Just locker room talk. I would say a lot of people care about this behavior of our president.

BILL CLINTON IS A RAPIST.

Prove it.

Are you Bill Clinton?

Do I have to be?

That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Seriously? Him putting his hand on a woman’s leg means he’s a rapist?

Get the fuck outta here with that weak sauce bullshit.

Do you actually believe there are videos in the public domain "proving" he is in fact a rapist? I guess as long as you don't get caught, it's cool right?

Fuck outta here with that demanding "proof" bullshit. If you can't tell something is wrong, you're blind as fuck.

So give me a link to proof then.

It’s been a couple hours. Any proof? Have you actually seen proof? Or are you just parroting something someone else said. Cozzzzzz calling a man you’ve never met a rapist without proof is something that gets you called a fucking scumbag. Take a step back and look at what you’re doing. It’s fucking sick, like there’s something seriously wrong with you. I have no doubt Bill Clinton and his wife are as crooked as it gets, but if you don’t have actual proof to show me you need to put on your grown up pants and stop being a shitty person.

Falsely accusing someone of rape without proof, even a political crook like Bill Clinton, is fucking disgusting and you should feel ashamed of yourself.

Sounds like something Bill Clinton would say.

Also, you seem to spend a lot of time defending Bill Clinton despite you just saying that he is "as crooked as it gets". You really go around calling people on reddit "shitty people" because they don't provide proof backing their statements? I don't owe you shit. If you give a shit, go looking for proof yourself.

You're really the hero Reddit needs, huh.

You aren’t getting it are you. I’m calling both the Clinton’s crooks because there’s verifiable evidence of them buying and selling stock in companies direct affected by legislation they voted on. You’re accusing a man of rape without evidence. What the fuck is wrong with you?

You won’t post evidence because it’s as laughably flimsy as your leg touch you tube video and you know it. Fucking pathetic little child you are.

Sheesh Bill, relax. You're right, I don't have proof. Please don't send your assassins after me xD

The American public should care because sleeping with a porn star while your wife is pregnant along with other...

I bet you can't even tell us how many countries have had our bullets flying and bombs dropping in them over the last 20 years. Isn't that a little more important than some insufferable asshole being a bad husband?

Well that would be a very specific statistic to know off the top of my head. I am not in the military or the secretary of defense. I guess the men's rights activist wins this one, boys. You would of fit in and been good friends with the Trump supporting flat earther I had this conversation with. A match made in heaven.

Don't you see that you did exactly what I said Trumpets do?

Well that would be a very specific statistic to know off the top of my head.

Can you ballpark it at least?

LOL still on this? I'll play.

Over 20 I would say.

So why are you so hung up on Trump's infidelity and hush payments? How on earth is that the slightest bit significant in the larger picture of constant war, insane spending, corruption, degrading infrastructure, mass incarceration and general ass-fucking of the working middle class?

You really don't get it.

Is Trump responsible for the last 20 years? No. I can't stop what already happened. If Trump invaded a new country it would be cause for much, much more concern than Stormy. In the meantime, I am focusing on the corruption and behavior unbecoming of a politician with hopes of impeachment before he can do something even more awful. We are talking about Trump, not the Bush or Obama administration.

In the meantime, I am focusing on the corruption and behavior unbecoming of a politician with hopes of impeachment before he can do something even more awful.

Such a tiny, insignificant act of corruption that it doesn't make any sense to hem and haw over it. It is utterly meaningless. Both parties are responsible for the grand-scale corruption leading to all of the things I mentioned above.

It's called 'whataboutism'. Russians used to be famous for it ironically.

You do realize if you dig deep enough, you will find out that Hillary has more dirt then trump.

You do realize my comment was sarcasm?

It’s significantly better than what the alternative would have been with the Clintons and their crony’s. That’s readily apparent. Also, this election proved the “drain the swamp” message can win against a dug in establishment candidate. It’s still a net positive. Pompeo was a CIA outsider to begin with.

RIP this sub.

Trump represents literally everything this sub used to be before it was bought out. You guys aren't fooling anyone. Trump supporters are leaving this sub in droves because its just shilling now. Sorry you feel that way OP. But nobody is falling for it.

Trump has continuously delivered on his campaign promises. He is not a one man band. He can't get it all done himself. To act as though he lied and deceived us is intellectually dishonest.

A) its been barely over a year. You think presidents get everything done in a day and sit around the rest of their term? B) the last one is not legislative, thats a bad comment, not a broken promise C) a lot of this requires congressional cooperation, which he does not have

Like I said, you're not fooling anyone. Dishonest

You are being dishonest. Just because he hasn't delivered on these things yet doesn't mean he won't. He even went to see wall prototypes today. You are certainly being intellectually dishonest. You're speaking way too soon. If it were 2020, you'd have an argument. We haven't even had midterms yet my man. Relax.

The wall will never be built.

You do realize that he cannot do everything in one day, right? If we could all do our job in one day, we would work 1 day per year

You realize he has been in office for over a year right? Most of us do a years worth of work in year.

And you realize that it takes more than a year to do everything he said he would, right? I mean you cannot possibly think anyone can do everything in one year, right?

He has both houses controlled by his party. If he wasn't an incompetent fuckwit with a racist, bigoted, and illegal agenda he could have gotten everything that the GOP has supposedly wanted since the Reagan days and he could have gotten it done in his first 100 days, no need for a full year.

Instead he couldn't even manage to work out a deal on Obamacare, which every republican agreed was the worst thing in history and it was going to bankrupt America. His massive tax reform became massive tax cuts for corporations, small cuts for everyone else with same old tax system, no REFORM at all. The wall isn't going past the planning stages, prototype all you want, but the funds for the full wall aren't happening. Infrastructure won't happen unless it involves selling it to corporations, there is no money for it after the tax cuts.

And of course “Take the guns first, go through due process second”.

For fucks sake, how deluded do you have to be to still believe Trump is going to fulfill his promises. He'll be lucky to finish out his term.

In 3 years you'll realize how deluded you've been this entire time

So nothing he does will make you happy. No need to waste my time on you

Typical t_d reading comprehension. It's pretty hard to understand what others are saying when your head is lodged so far up Trump's ass.

Awe.... You need a hug?

No, I live in the US, which even under Trump is still far better than Putin's Russia. How's the weather out there comrade?

Cold as a liberal’s thought proces. Lol

Cold and logical is far better than fear and emotion based decision making, which seems to be the rights way of thinking these days.

Thank you for the compliment tovarishch.

Fear and hate is all liberals have.

Yep, cause it's totally the liberals who are renowned for hating people of different races, religions, and sexual orientations...oh wait, that's the right.

Hear, hear brother

stick around in new and controversial

Im glad. Glad that trump is making all this nasty business show its face to the light, im glad HRC didnt win as well, the crummy trump business is the reason why im glad HRC lost. Shes an efficient politician that believes in the status quo.

The status quo isn't so swell...if your not a billionaire richy. Everythings for sale in america, a politicians virtue, the appearance of it. The mishandling of the 2016 election is causing progressives to reorganize, but with hillary, as with obama, progressivism wouldn've come to stall another 8 years potentially, in the dark, in silence.

Now look how elections are going as the dnc leadership tries to wrestle for control of the left, which is doubting itself and is reeling from the devastating defeat. One part of the left is sure of itself though.

The part that got swindled out of bernie sanders, the people. Offering up russian redmeat isn't gonna satisfy the sanders folk, who are very plentiful. Its delicious.

Dismantling the status quo is great if it's done sanely

He's dismantling it by veering toward nuclear war & unmitigated kleptocracy

the new status quo is much, much worse

The public offered the careers politicians a choice in 2016

The status quo hasn't changed, its just that we get to see the dirty deeds done. No beating around the bushes this time and claiming your doing it for patriotic reasons, they doing it for the accumulation of personal wealth.

Open attacks on the poor, open attacks on immigrants, nuclear threats, installing family members into the government, playing with expanding the death penalty, playing with being President-for-Life...it's definitely worse.

As a progressive, Whats new?

Well, our last President didn't get off on the idea of nuclear armageddon, instituted at least some programs & protections to help consumers & the poor, tried to help immigrants, fought back against racism...if you really can't tell the difference, you're either naive, or uninformed.

Didnt legalize marijuana fullstop, gave romneycare to prop the health insurance industry, didnt stop the wars; expanded them, didn't prosecute the criminals on wallstreet, legalized the use of propaganda in tandem with the bush/hillary patriotic act DIDNT STRIKE down the patriotic act.

I could ramble on for days on how obama is the weakest president the USA ever witnessed, the proof is in the pudding man, fucking gameshow host swept it right from under the neopolitical dynasty.

"Here are the ways Obama is strikingly different from this corrupt shitshow"

"NOT LISTENING"

right on man

Idc about trump, hes a result of the two parties failing. They fuked with bernie tho so now its time to clean house wild west style. Litmus test for eerybody. Starting with the list of folk who tried to serve up the neolib in 2016. Money talks.

Yeah nevermind that he expanded Bush's wars, deregulationd wall st, bombed hospitals in the mid east, tortured "some folks", sold weapons to cartels, and did nothing while people were getting beaten by police. He doesn't give a shit about you or the American people, just like 99% of our elected officials..

Stop being partisan and realize that this is a much bigger issue.

Also, if your gonna fight for the oldguard who does believe in the status quo, why not just vote republican for fucks sake?

Oppose trump on the right dont try to soak up liberal sunshine because you and me both believe in the right to choose; i however just dont believe war. Theres no party against the war, these russiagate delusions are proof of that.

Voting Republican is a vote for Trump & Trump supporters

I don't know how you think that's compatible with what I said

I hope nobody ever trusts a rich new yorker ever again. ever.

There was two options in the end. Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump. I picked what I felt like was the lesser of the two evils. I feel like a lot of people aren't completely Trump supporters and leaned towards the lesser evil.

How is this literal globalist businessman, who hires his cronies, lies so hard his lawyers won't let him in a courtroom, dismantles consumer & environmental protections, & sloppily gets soldiers killed "lesser evil?"

sloppily gets soldiers killed

Are you talking about Hillary Clinton?

Trump is the CIC, and he's botching left & right.

Man I wish this was my president

You prefer promising "fire & fury like the world has never seen?" You prefer a guy who thinks the way to fight terrorists is to "take out their families?" You prefer a President who praises death squads as a means of law enforcement?

You prefer a President who praises death squads as a means of law enforcement?

I tried searching but couldn't find any source of this.

You prefer promising "fire & fury like the world has never seen?"

It was his own version of President Truman's line. I guess we should back down and let death camp North Korea threaten to nuke us.

You prefer a guy who thinks the way to fight terrorists is to "take out their families?"

That's pretty over the top and counter intuitive.

He has repeatedly praised Rodrigo Duertre and his death squads for killing drug dealers, and suggested we should do the same

I'm sure he wouldn't allow that to happen.

Lol the rate of civilian deaths from strikes has increased dramatically under Trump.

It was his own version of President Truman's line

I believe this was before he was in office and he has General James Mattis in there, I'm sure he wouldn't allow that to happen.

This is the problem with arguing with trump supporters. You can throw any number of direct, repeated quotes at them, and they still FEEL like Trump doesn't actually mean it.

How many dead and Embassies were attacked under Bush ? 13 Benghazi's under Bush but not a peep out of repubs.

You realize that Pompeo was only the CIA director because Trump appointed him as such?

Honestly this post seems hyperbolic.

It was clear from the beginning to me. Especially since he decided not to prosecute the Clinton's.

Someone generally has to have committed a crime first.

Prosecute them for what?

Muh feelings

Weirdly enough that doesn't even matter though. It's all he talked about while campaigning, the chants of "Lock Her UP!" rang out at every Trump rally. Then he gets into office and................................. nothing. Guy is such a con.

Yeah I never understood that. What was he trying to lock her up for? Was it because of her emails? Because by that standard, Trump could be locked up as wel, not by the actions he took as a president (because a president can declassify stuff at will), but because of the actions he took as president elect.

Destruction of evidence.

Careful with that "We," cuz

I didn't buy that bloated conman's bullshit

Who’s we?

The royal 'we.'

As in we the people? Or we the brigadiers?

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???

"We" just referred to the multitude of Trump supporters on the sub

Maybe the quotes will help

The we that's incentivized to be here.

How do you feel about informing Americans on the lie they were sold on 9:11? And the perpetual war and infringes on privacy and freedom since by Obama and Trump?

This is not a one way street.