An example of pilpul as an argumentation technique.

1  2018-05-05 by RMFN

The more I argued with them, the better I came to know their dialectic. First they counted on the stupidity of their adversary, and then, when there was no other way out, they themselves simply played stupid. If all this didn't help, they pretended not to understand, or, if challenged, they changed the subject in a hurry, quoted platitudes which, if you accepted them, they immediately related to entirely different matters, and then, if again attacked, gave ground and pretended not to know exactly what you were talking about. Whenever you tried to attack one of these apostles, your hand closed on a jelly-like slime which divided up and poured through your fingers, but in the next moment collected again. But if you really struck one of these fellows so telling a blow that, observed by the audience, he couldn't help but agree, and if you believed that this had taken you at least one step forward, your amazement was great the next day. They had not the slightest recollection of the day before, he rattled off his same old nonsense as though nothing at all had happened, and, if indignantly challenged, affected amazement; he couldn't remember a thing, except that he had proved the correctness of his assertions the previous day. Sometimes I stood there thunderstruck. I didn't know what to be more amazed at: the agility of their tongues or their virtuosity at lying. Gradually I began to hate them.

109 comments

1  Terex80 2018-05-05

And me saying that there are people who support israel and right to bear arms is this how?

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

And me saying that there are people who support israel and right to bear arms is this how?

;) coming back a day later wamting to start from square one are we?

1  Terex80 2018-05-05

No, you failed to reply to my comment and just accused me. You did not even attempt to counter what I said.

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

And what was it you said again?

1  Terex80 2018-05-05

First of all there are plenty who support israel and guns. Secondly people can support a state without supporting every single policy they have. Also there is a fairly good reason for Israelis to be armed (given how many times they've been attacked)

You did not even attempt to address any single one of the points I made.

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

Well what exactly is the point of that statement? That groups are not monolithic? Thats a given.

1  Terex80 2018-05-05

Your comment before this acted as if this was not the case.

So I ask again, why did you accuse me of this rathet than attempting to respond

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

What did I accuse you of?

1  Terex80 2018-05-05

Lol nice example of pilpul. I'll have to save this for later.

That was the reply to my comment. As I'm sure you agree, not relevant to what I said whatsoever

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

Your comment in what context?

1  Terex80 2018-05-05

Israel has universal gun ownership. Yet people who support Israel are against the Us having guns.

Find the contradiction find the lie.

My comment in reply is true and you tried to misrepresent this issue.

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

Israel doesn't have conscription?

1  Terex80 2018-05-05

Well first of all there is a world of difference between private gun ownership and conscription.

And my point is still relevant that you oversimplified massively

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

Everyone in the idf has a gun though. Am I wrong?

1  Terex80 2018-05-05

No however people advocating gun control aren't saying tge us army shouldn't have guns correct?

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

The idf doesn't give weapons training? Wat?

1  Terex80 2018-05-05

Where did you claim that? It's a bloody army, bringing them up for gun control in the us is a huge strawman

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

Where did you claim that? It's a bloody army, bringing them up for gun control in the us is a huge strawman

A defense force is an army? They aren't defending Israel now? Army's are offensive. Israel has never enguaged in an offensive War have they?

1  Terex80 2018-05-05

Armies do not have to be offensive. Nice try though, expert goalpost shifting

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

Is it an army or a defense force?

1  Terex80 2018-05-05

Its a name, are the air cavalry flying horses?

You're trying to get into pointless semantics which achieve nothing and mean nothing

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

But they all own guns don't they?

1  Terex80 2018-05-05

Proper training on handling guns is a far cry from the US. In anycase you've tried to lead me on a wild goose chase while not admitting thay your original statement was oversimplified at best and an outright lie at worse

(Especially since many republicans are pro israel and pro gun lol)

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

"Israel has universal gun ownership"

"Every Israeli citizen is issued a fully automatic equivalent of the ar15. Let that sink in."

"They keep their firearms upon exiting service."

Is this false?

1  Terex80 2018-05-05

No.

Is it false that many republicans support guns and israel?

Also as I've said before, people being trained is different.

Furthermore the discussion is about your initial comment being incorrect. I'm sick of you moving these goal posts like this

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

No.

Is it false that many republicans support guns and israel?

Also as I've said before, people being trained is different.

Furthermore the discussion is about your initial comment being incorrect. I'm sick of you moving these goal posts like this

You have any evidence that it's false?

Are you implying that I'm a republican?

1  Terex80 2018-05-05

False that many republicans support guns and israel? That is common knowledge therefore doesn't need referencing.

And no... why did you think that?

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

"Israel has universal gun ownership"

"Every Israeli citizen is issued a fully automatic equivalent of the ar15. Let that sink in."

"They keep their firearms upon exiting service."

These statements? Do you have any evidence that they are false?

1  HrschG 2018-05-05

I still wait for you to provide anything that support those claims (especially the last one)

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

You don't have any evidence of them being false do you? I don't have to prove a negative.

1  HrschG 2018-05-05

I don't have to prove a negative

Correct,but I am asking you to prove a positive ( that your statement is true)

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

Did I say it was true? Or did I just say it?

1  HrschG 2018-05-05

That answers more than I asked for, thank you.

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

Now we're both happy.

1  Terex80 2018-05-05

No and as I've tried to make very clear to you it's not relevant.

At this stage you have completely left the issue. So unless you wish to defend your original statement I won't waste my time any more

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

Ah. So you're going to just cop out on gun ownership in Israel. Classic.

1  Terex80 2018-05-05

No. I'm saying it is very different to the us system as anyone can easily see

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

Whys that?

1  Terex80 2018-05-05

Tell me the training you need to own a firearm in the US.

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

Reaching adulthood.

1  Terex80 2018-05-05

So no training. Thank you.

I hope you can understand the clear differences

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

There of course is a difference. The double standard is the entire point of yesterday's conversation.

1  Terex80 2018-05-05

The double standard which you tried to make seem like was shared by all who support israel. All I tried to say was that you were being misleading

And again, double standard does not apply necessarily given the completely different contexts

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

Yeah totally, that's why we have open borders and Israel is an ethnostate.

1  Terex80 2018-05-05

Thanks for ramming off the rails again

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

Israel isn't an ethnostate??

1  Terex80 2018-05-05

It isn't relevant. You are also interesting fitting your own definition of pilpul.

Now, given it is clear you were wrong to act like all those who support israel are anti gun I have no need to waste my time

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

It isn't relevant. You are also interesting fitting your own definition of pilpul.

Now, given it is clear you were wrong to act like all those who support israel are anti gun I have no need to waste my time

;*

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

And your the one playing soccer. There is no "goal post" in life.

1  Bmdubd 2018-05-05

So your saying his statement is not false?

1  HrschG 2018-05-05

"Israel has universal gun ownership" "Every Israeli citizen is issued a fully automatic equivalent of the ar15. Let that sink in." "They keep their firearms upon exiting service."

1  NorthKoreanDetergent 2018-05-05

This is a quote from Hitler, btw.

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

What??

1  NorthKoreanDetergent 2018-05-05

Yeah man, it's from Mein Kampf. You knew that, right?

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

What? That can't be true.

1  NorthKoreanDetergent 2018-05-05

Uh, yeah dude. Hitler notoriously hated jews, remember?

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf

Chapter 2, about halfway down.

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

Lol Hitler was a major Zionist, how could he "hate" the Jews...

1  NorthKoreanDetergent 2018-05-05

Hey bro, you clearly know so little about Hitler you're going around quoting him without even realizing you're quoting him, and literally in the quote you posted (which is BY hitler), he says 'Gradually I began to hate them.'

What are we doing here brother?

1  COBiker22 2018-05-05

Is this really happening right now?

What a time to be alive...

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

;*

1  NorthKoreanDetergent 2018-05-05

Is that a black-eye and other eye crying 'face'?

I'm sorry man, didn't mean to hurt you. Just think context is important, ya know?

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

What are you accusing me of, sweetie?

1  NorthKoreanDetergent 2018-05-05

Um, not being as retarded as I thought you were?

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

Us shills are smart eh?

1  NorthKoreanDetergent 2018-05-05

Oh, so YOU'RE a shill?

Fuck man, plot twist of the century.

Anyway, I don't really even care. Just initially didn't see the quote attributed to Hitler, so wanted to provide context. That's all.

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

Oh, so YOU'RE a shill?

Fuck man, plot twist of the century.

Anyway, I don't really even care. Just initially didn't see the quote attributed to Hitler, so wanted to provide context. That's all.

Yeah got to provide "context" to make sure the board is kosher.

1  NorthKoreanDetergent 2018-05-05

Wait, now I'm confused...

But I still don't care.

Later bruh.

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

Later!

1  aleister 2018-05-05

Removed. Rule 10

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

Calling myself a shill is against the rules?? Maybe you should read rule ten again.

1  aleister 2018-05-05

Agreed, but then I saw the context and just nuked it all.

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

Lol. Keep up the good work.

1  aleister 2018-05-05

Removed. Rule 10

1  not_really_ashamed 2018-05-05

Calling people sweetie is so toxic.

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

You're quoting me?

1  not_really_ashamed 2018-05-05

Am I?

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

I literally said that a few days ago.

1  not_really_ashamed 2018-05-05

cool story brah

1  katrina_pierson 2018-05-05

Lol Hitler was a major Zionist, how could he "hate" the Jews...

fucking stop

how the hell is this a real comment

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

You're saying Hitler wasn't a Zionist??

1  katrina_pierson 2018-05-05

Yes. Considering he scrapped his idea of a Jewish homeland for murdering them.

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

What are you talking about??

1  katrina_pierson 2018-05-05

when there was no other way out, they themselves simply played stupid.

literally you right now

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

Read the title of the post again ;*

1  nuclearsprout 2018-05-05

Say what?

1  wile_e_chicken 2018-05-05

Wow. Is it possible, just possible, that we've been lied to about our history?

1  NorthKoreanDetergent 2018-05-05

Totally.

1  Bmdubd 2018-05-05

Love this

1  COBiker22 2018-05-05

You love Hitler's autobiography?

1  Bmdubd 2018-05-05

This is an excellent description of shill tactics, and why they are so difficult to argue against.

Coincidentally one of the main sources of shills is jewish organizations like JIDF

Though Im betting your the type to call me an anti-semite for pointing that out

1  COBiker22 2018-05-05

"Hitler was right"

  • You

1  Bmdubd 2018-05-05

you agree with a statement on infiltration and argument tactics.

You are literally hitler

1  COBiker22 2018-05-05

Since you're struggling, let me help.

you agree with a statement (made by Hitler) on infiltration and argument tactics. (Of the Jews, which he states his hatred for in the statement)

You think Hitler was right.

1  Bmdubd 2018-05-05

https://imgur.com/a/kN9rRa8

Hint: you are 2nd from the bottom

Attacking the author and disregarding what they have to say is pretty bottom of the barrel as far as refutation.

Hitler rose to be one of the most influential figures in history, and you seem to be implying by agreeing with anything he had to say makes you just as bad as him.

You are literally not worth arguing with, go back to 4th grade english kiddo.

1  COBiker22 2018-05-05

Spin harder.

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

Kindly go straw man yourself.

1  COBiker22 2018-05-05

I've gotta say, your comments do an incredible job of demonstrating the bad faith tactics described in your post.

Thanks for the lesson.

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

You read the title right?

1  COBiker22 2018-05-05

Of course. But I just expected one example, not dozens!

1  wile_e_chicken 2018-05-05

I've seen this countless times. And sometimes, when you even nail them down on the "playing stupid" part, they simply start spewing self-contradictory nonsense, just to waste your time.

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

Examine the rest of the comments carefully. ;)

1  wile_e_chicken 2018-05-05

Oh for sure. And I don't have a great answer. If you bail too early, they strut around declaring victory and shitting on the chessboard, as it were. Stick around too long and not only are they wasting your time but you look foolish and desperate for engaging so long.

1  swansong19 2018-05-05

"Never argue with a fool. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"

1  torkarl 2018-05-05

Once again, if you are stupid enough (like me) to engage this topic, just be aware that it is very likely poster and his backup are plants with a mission to suss out the anti-semite element.

I don't have any sympathy for anti-semites, but I also have no tolerance for this kind of deceit. Bring on Rule 10 (no calling out shills).

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

Ohhh, nice example thanks, tork.

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

And what was it you said again?

1  Terex80 2018-05-05

It isn't relevant. You are also interesting fitting your own definition of pilpul.

Now, given it is clear you were wrong to act like all those who support israel are anti gun I have no need to waste my time

1  Bmdubd 2018-05-05

you agree with a statement on infiltration and argument tactics.

You are literally hitler

1  RMFN 2018-05-05

Kindly go straw man yourself.

1  not_really_ashamed 2018-05-05

cool story brah

1  COBiker22 2018-05-05

I've gotta say, your comments do an incredible job of demonstrating the bad faith tactics described in your post.

Thanks for the lesson.