Live and let live my friend. I don't believe in FE but I don't seek to call out or attack those who do. I just don't engage in those discussions.

Ever since the flat Earth thing started I felt it was an Anti-Conspiracy Psy Op.

Imagine the average American who believes the MSM narrative of 9/11, doesn't know the Federal reserve is a private corporation, etc etc. Their only understanding of conspiracy theories is what the MSM calls conspiracy theories. And of course, They know this, and have created an easily disprovable and clearly fallacious "conspiracy theory," even inacting the help of celebrities (B.o.B.) to push this agenda to seem legit. So now any time your grandma heard the words "conspiracy theory" she'll snicker and laugh because she's no dummy and she knows those conspiracy nuts are clearly tin foil hatters off their rocker.

no, there are 'legitimate' flat earthers who also align with a belief in the 9/11 false flag, sandy hook, vax, etc. they also almost 100% align with trump and the right wing. sorry.

I can't help but feel that you're merely trying to wrap everyone you dislike or disagree with into a neat little bundle. Why else would you mention Trump supporters? That has nothing to do with flat earthers.

In my experience there is a lot of crossover.

I seriously doubt Kyrie Irving is a trump supporter

I think that pretty much sums it up. It's all about discrediting anyone who asks questions by making them seem crazy or stupid.

Absolutely, it's a PSYOP against any conspiracy theorists.

"Oh, you believe WTC 7 was a demolition? I bet you believe the earth is flat too, dumbass."

Qanon is a different PSYOP against conspiracy theorists, only it seems to be a neocon PSYOP to turn conspiracy theorists into blind Trump and Co. supporters.

I think Flat Earth is the external guard against people from joining the conspiracy theorists, and that QAnon is an internal PsyOp meant to steer conspiracy theorists away from themselves.

The real conspiracy is that flat earth is even given a platform in the msm. It's not even close to one of the most supported conspiracy theories. It's almost like elevating it to attention is being used to discredit real issues bc it makes anyone that doesn't accept every spoon fed narrative look crazy.

It's almost like elevating it to attention is being used to discredit real issues

Ding ding ding

And then they believe all conspiracy theorist's believe that shit, its sickening.

Exactly...God, we need to find a way to more aggressively or productively wake people up to at least the simple stuff...People take all the extreme examples of "beliefs" from so many non-mainstream groups. They end up closing their ears and eyes to anything that resembles what they've been warned about, and then cling steadfast to what they're told the experts' opinions are. If you think for your self, you are part of the problem, you're toxic, bigoted, ignorant, among a litany of other insults...It's all like a trigger word that practically turns them into Agent Smith. You conform, or else...Resistance is futile!

i believe this is what is happening with the "no planes hit the twin towers" on 9/11 too.

I have no doubt!

I believe planes hit the towers but I’m not convinced its the planes they say hit the towers.

There are images where you can see some type of attachment on the wing of at least one of the planes.

Anyway, leaving this here for others. Toronto Hearings on 9/11- Show this to any skeptic friends and family of yours.

https://youtu.be/kpiVv8tQdmY

very possible. not sure if we will every know the full truth at this point though.

I think they treat flat earthers the way they treat the the lady who thinks her cats fur pattern show the Virgin Mary.

Its really just kind of a freak show to keep the bread and circuses going so audiences are distracted and can feel superior to somebody...

Accurate. It came out of nowhere just rolled out with insanely high production quality. Its was a top level PR rollout. Nothing just blows up in the news by coincidence.

Complete with celebrity endorsements

Nothing just blows up in the news by coincidence.

What was the conspiracy behind balloon boy then?

Flat Earth has been around forever. High school field trip 20 yrs ago to NYC (pre-9/11) I remember we were handed two different pamphlets on different days from completely separate sects of flat-earth conspiracists. One was close to what we see today, the other was more of the whole hologram/holofractal stuff, both still occasionally popular conspiracies.

Didn't it get popular because of famous sports and music stars were talking about believing it?

Yep. Right around the time conspiracy theories were being proven true, celebrities came out of the woodwork validating one of the stupidest conspiracy theories in order to invalidate justifiable ones

That's strange because in reality there's far more posts bitching and complaining about the flat-earthers here on this very forum on a regular basis, at least once every week, than anything at all being mentioned about them anywhere else.

And I say bitching and complaining because it consists mainly of name calling and disparaging the flat-earthers and completely ignoring the growing body of facts that they've been assembling by using the scientific method and very carefully done direct experiments to try and prove things one way or the other.

Something that those who are so critical of them aren't even the slightest bit curious about and avoid any mention of like the very plague itself.

Equally as interesting is just how many flat-earthers started out thinking just how easy it should be to disprove any notion that the Earth might be flat only to find that what there is, is far from being as convincing as they originally believed it was in the face of more logical and very direct evidence to the contrary.

Not even the ancient believed the earth was flat. The myth was started later on to try and make older civilisations look stupid so the then leaders could claim that there way of doing things was so much better than the old "stupid" civilisations.

It could be true. I don't, personally, believe it's true, but it could be.

No. It couldnt.

It could, I write physics engine and focus on VR. All of space is an illusion in my eyes, that's why I can create depth perception by strapping a 2D array onto your face.

I’m pretty sure we started that theory 5 years ago as a joke.

That's what I thought too. Like, it was started by a group of trolls from some of the chans and some other places and it somehow gained traction. Although I remeber it being a bit more than 5 years ago.

No,lol.

The FE society started in the 90's.

Ahh. I just remember something here as a joke and it took off. Thanks for clarifying though :).

ive ignored this crap as much as possible, is there even a benefit these clowns claim would stem from people recognizing their foolishness?

I am a flat earther that is not Christian or religious at all - I only know the earth is flat because of the scientific method - nothing else. Faith does not enter into it.

I also do not support Trump or any extant political party that I'm aware of and will probably never vote in an organized election.

/u/SlickInfinity seems to have made this thread after he literally asked me to kill myself in another thread because I was talking about my flat earth beliefs. He did not post these thoughts in the thread but as a specific response to my flat earth comments.

Here's the link: https://np.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/8vb4iv/do_people_still_believe_aliens_are_a_conspiracy/e1lzv6s/

Here's the text:

Wow the stupidity in flat earth believers is off the charts. Moon is round, sun is round, raindrops round and we're all using sattelites daily. Can you please explain to me how I flew around the world? The flat earth conspiracy is most likely just to see how retarted some people are. There's definitely hard science backing it up too omg lol. I honestly believe if you think the world is flat, the best thing you can do for our species is suicide.

Is this the kind of behavior we should be seeing on /r/conspiracy? To openly advocate for people to kill themselves? Seems like this is going too far to me. What do other people think? Or am I really "retarted" ???

Flat earth doesnt make sense to me, but i don't see stuff the same way. I think its silly but to you round earth is silly. We can all agree the moon is made of cheese tho right?

https://i.imgur.com/sLL6wol.jpg

This is roughly what we believe it looks like.. they hide that the Earth is a habitat made by Intelligent Design.

If they allowed everyone to know this, God would be undeniable.

We changed from believing the Earth was flat to round in hundreds of years ago before we had today’s technology, and NASA still can’t provide us with a telescopic picture of earth from outer space.

How about stuff like NASA Captures "EPIC" Earth Image?

It’s fake.

Look at other pictures that “claim” to be from outer space, the continent land masses do not add up.

Every image we have of the globe are composite images put together to make the spherical earth..

There’s a clip of a guy from NASA saying we photoshop images of Earth because we have to...

It should be very easy to google and find

exactly how do people not realize this

So pictures aren't really of any interest to you; since any and all of them are invariably fake?

Show more.. there aren’t very many.. you’ll be surprised

No. You've made your stance clear enough.

Ok but you don’t have any evidence besides a picture from the NASA that is a GOV institution lmfao.. they faked the moon landing and they’re faking everything else today

Who's "they"?

Also: Russian picture of Earth

Compare that picture the other one.. the land masses don’t even look remotely close to each other.

They is just the establishment that wants to keep everyone blind to the truth.

Our current view of the world is run on these lies because it keeps the world turnings.. for now

So, a nameless omnipotent and omnipresent organization not only producing unimaginable terrabytes worth of "falsified" data on a daily basis globally; but also simultaneously preventing any and all efforts in the entire world from getting an actual view of the planet?

Some stuff by Japan

So, a nameless omnipotent and omnipresent organization not only producing unimaginable terrabytes worth of "falsified" data ; but also simultaneously preventing any and all efforts in the entire world from getting an actual investigation in to the events on 9\11?

Space and the shape of the earth isn't a time-locale based event. Only at one place - and at one time - was there a 9/11 to fake.

Every industrialized nation on the planet is constantly working with technologies that continuously interact with and document the properties and form of the planet. Each and every single of one of them would have to be under constant - perfect, unceasing, unfailing - control.

A DIY rocket launch.

Every industrialized nation on the planet is constantly working with technologies that continuously interact with and document the properties and form of the planet

but how do you know any of them are doing what they say they are?

and why do you believe what they say?

I'm not a flat earther btw, but thats because I've seen the curve, not because I believe what I was told.

You can't argue with someone who's already made up his mind.

You can't explain how GPS works on your flat Earth. And before you say it isn't LORAN.

nasa

lol

They took that picture from the front. You have to look at it from the side.

They’re round because they are simply decoration in the sky. God created this world for us and gave us something beautiful to look at during the night time..

Space is not somewhere you can go, it is simply an advanced decorative background

These are what provides those services. Search satellites in space on google images. They also look obviously photoshopped.

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.giantbomb.com%2Fuploads%2Fscale_small%2F1%2F13313%2F1065605-satellite_dish.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.giantbomb.com%2Fsatellite-dish%2F3055-2366%2Fnews%2F&docid=mjQBU4sgTqRf4M&tbnid=xOZmMTjFpcU-1M%3A&vet=10ahUKEwjD5KSUyf7bAhUJFjQIHbiSARQQMwi7ASgBMAE..i&w=427&h=640&hl=en-us&client=safari&bih=628&biw=375&q=giant%20satellite%20dish&ved=0ahUKEwjD5KSUyf7bAhUJFjQIHbiSARQQMwi7ASgBMAE&iact=mrc&uact=8

That is a radio telescope.

Doesn’t explain the south celestial pole. Debunked. Next case please.

[removed]

What about Eratosthenes' experiment that found the circumference of the Earth?

Lmfao a guy born in 276 BC... it’s called an ancient psy op my friend

Why don't you try the experiment for yourself? It's not as though the method has changed.

The experiment works when you think the sun is “93 million miles away” it is no where near that far away and is much closer than we are lead to believe.

If the earth is rotating and you fly a hot air balloon straight into the air, why doesn’t the earth rotate below you?

Hypothetically, if you went straight up in the air on a hot air balloon, you would see the entire world in 24 hours if it rotated under earth you.

What about dat?

Why should I believe that the sun is closer than I’ve been lead to believe?

Also, the hot air ballon thing- the atmosphere rotates with the earth.

“The atmosphere rotates with the Earth” that is as baseless of a claim as saying Pizzagate is a real thing lol

Ok... care to enlighten me on my initial point?

Please take five seconds out of your day to google these "slam dunk" evidences you have, such as the hot air balloon. You make yourself look stupid when you base your entire belief on things that have clear answers.

How high do you have to be before the atmosphere stops rotating with your hot air balloon?

10,000 feet? 25,000 feet, 55,000 feet?

To strengthen my initial point, you could just google "how high do you have to be to stop rotating with the atmosphere" and get an answer.

Most sources say 100km is the point where the drag of the atmosphere is negligible. Not specific to hot air balloons obviously.

You see it's that kind of comment which just proves your either a troll or just not very bright. Do you honestly beleive the ground is some kind of massive conveyor belt? What even is this comment?

That’s fine. Every single one of my points before the hot air balloon are extremely credible, yet you focus on the one that I used to ELI5 to some people that are on the fence.

Don’t worry, there are plenty of people not commenting that are ready reading my points and looking deeper into it.

That’s how I woke up, and if you don’t take the time to do your own research and just think I’m “crazy” then you are one of the “sheep” that don’t even think for two seconds.

It’s just the internet though, think about a day where people like me get throw in prison for believing this shit and speaking about it on platforms like Reddit.

Then what would you think?

It’s almost like the law in Germany where if you deny the Holocaust, you get thrown in prison.

How do you feel about that subject?

Your narative is clear. You've assumed a great deal about me based on my one comment which doesn't even reveal my position on the subject. Your just arguing with your self to feed your own bias.

That doesn’t cut it. Let’s assume your UN map is correct. The equator then becomes just an arbitrary ring equidistant from the North Pole and the edge. In a flat model, you ought to be able to see stars revolving about the north celestial pole/North Star/ Polaris from anywhere on the ~globe~ sorry plane. Why then is it the case in our real world that anyone closer to the edge than the equator who looks up at the night sky in any region of your map can clearly and easily see that the North Star is no longer visible, and that over the course of the night, stars in fact revolve around an entirely different location in the sky?

Have you even ever been to the Southern Hemisphere? Because I have, and I personally observed stars going around the Southern celestial pole and I never visited the opposite side of the flat earth to do it.

It is very possible the stars in the sky rotate

That doesn’t even begin to afresh my comment.

What do you mean by the difference of the southern pole?

Look it’s just geometry. If the earth were flat you would be able to see any star in the sky from any point independent of latitude. Just imagine a dome over your UN model with the stars on it and the North Star in the center (or wherever it doesn’t matter). You can draw a straight line from the North Star in this model to any location on the map including the Southern Hemisphere meaning in your model we should be able to see the North Star everywhere. But we don’t.

concave does ;)

NASA still can’t provide us with a telescopic picture of earth from outer space.

http://www.goes.noaa.gov/f_himawari-8.html

https://himawari8.nict.go.jp/

https://epic.gsfc.nasa.gov/

God forbid you have a different opinion on a conspiracy forum without threats or OP making himself feel better by using moron multiple times.

I don't believe in flat earh but unless you have an original unedited photo of the Earth from Space not fron NASA then GTFO.

I think you should go with flat earthers shoild sterilize themselves instead of suicide. Might go over a bit better.... I agree with you on flat earth tho, it's nonsense.

People love to watch a few YouTube videos and act like they know everything about a subject an expert studied for decades. The guy above is dull but not mentally disabled.

What about from Russia?

I will admit I want the earth to be flat, I think there are just too many unanswered questions from both sides. But that small video is just fucking hilarious. Do you want to tell me all the clouds in the whole world has stood still the entire day?(daytime)

If this is your easy proof sign me up as a flat earther all the way please.

If you pay attention to the video, the clouds do move. Just focus on one spot.

My point is that this is photos and videos from Russia. Is Russia part of the conspiracy to hide flat earth as well?

Man, if you say that video is real, please just look up to the sky with your own eyes tomorrow. That specific video is a real bad attempt at globe earth evidence.

Also, yes, they are all in it. Obviously there are some people unknowingly participating, but the higher ups all know what's going on.

The clouds move in the video.

So what's the purpose of Russia hiding flat earth and participating in the conspiracy?

Ok, I don't know if you have been living in a city most of your life, but forget the clouds.

It is not Russia, as in the whole country decided. But all the space stations/instituitions work together, irregardless of their country of origin, and they're all apart of the conspiracy.

I've lived all over the world. Both small towns and big cities.

So what's the purpose of Russian government hiding flat earth and participating in the conspiracy?

I personally believe it is to try and hide God.

Why would the Russian government try and hide God?

Curious, why would a flat earth inherently prove gods existence?

It is what the bible teaches, and would therefore be easier to appeal to people who are more 'things' orientated. (It's late and it's my second language, so I don't know which word to rather use, maybe pragmatic?)

Anyway, if I can talk to someone and say, hey, listen, this is how the world works, this is where we are, there is heaven, there is hell. We can't leave this place and go anywhere else. We are confined here. The people in charge of this world is not your 'friendly government', it is not even the illuminati/bankers or whoever you might think. The devil still rules most of the people that are in charge, and he will try his best to make you think either he/God/both do not exist. (Insert the whole big bang theory/evolution/endless space/multiple universe theories and so on to make you feel smaller than dust particle and insignificant and without purpose)

But all that does not matter anyway, what only matters is how you choose to live your life. Will start to share my own story if the person still wants to hear me out.

So yeah, for me personally I believe the earth is flat, and you have to admit, if it is really the case, our lives here on earth do immediately seem a little bit more intentional.

I don’t think that’s necessarily so.

Even if the Bible mentioned a flat earth (I’ll take your word for that in this moment but I don’t recall it in scripture) that still doesn’t prove god.

Another way to look at this- if we can prove to your satisfaction that the earth is round that wouldn’t be justification to call the originators of that theory all knowing deities. Nor would it absolutely shatter your belief in a god- I wouldn’t think.

I agree that if you can prove the earth is round that would not justify calling the originators of the theory all knowing deities, as they have answered an existing question.

And I agree the earth being flat/round will not change my view on God/bible as I place my trust in them based on more personal and immediate life situations/choices.

But, if the bible mentioned flat earth from before we even started asking questions regarding our earth, for me that says that the bible knows what's up, that it holds the truth of life, and that it can be trusted.

Let's say the bible mentioned round earth before we proved it, who would be smarter? the bible or the people who proved it?

Ofcourse. This is the grandest conspiracy of them all.

So what's the purpose of the Russian government hiding flat earth and participating in the conspiracy?

What does a flat Earth entail? For me, it says we're here for a purpose, it "proves" a creator of sorts is involved. That is not our current perception of reality, and it is hurting us. If you believe in TPTB in any way shape or form, flat Earth should not be so far fetched as we're told.

So you think the Russian government doesn't want people to know there is a creator?

And how is it hurting us?

How would the world change if we knew we had one thing to figure out collectivly? Would we still see wars being faught for oil? Would wealth and power have the same role as it does today? Would you look at your fellow human beings the same?

So you think the Russian government doesn't want people to know there is a creator?

You didn't answer my question.

And there would still be wars fought. Why wouldn't there be? And there is already prosperity gospel that is being abused by sociopaths who take advantage of the elderly and naive faithful.

I'm atheist, and I always try to act kindly and charitable towards others. If I acted good, just because I was instructed to by a higher faith or creator, does not make my actions genuinely good because my intentions would be corrupt regardless of the good deed.

I did answer your question, edited my post if you missed it. If you can't understand how the world would be different if we knew the Earth was flat, I'm done trying to argue my point. :-)

I just refreshed and don't see it in this comment.

How would the world change if we knew we had one thing to figure out collectivly? Would we still see wars being faught? Would wealth and power have the same role as it does today? Would you look at your fellow human beings the same?

I've already given you a prime example of people who already have faith and believe in a creator but worship prosperity gospel.

I believe that's a good counterpoint to your argument. Feel free to explain why I'm wrong.

My point of it not having to be entire governments. How math and "pictures of Earth" has convinced people of a reality without having observations to back it up. Saying the moon is a sphere because it looks circular in the night sky does not count. Neither does saying water curves to a surface because raindrops are round, that is surface tension, not mass attracting mass. If you knew the Earth was flat, you'd also know there was a God. Being an atheist, how would that affect you? Would you not see the world around you and everyone in it differently? Wouldn't the shitty world as we know it sort of, stop spinning? ;)

And again you ignore the question. Are you saying that the Russian government was fooled by their Russian space operations?

And you also ignored my main point of people who already believe in the Christian god, but worship money and power due to prosperity gospel.

Knowing that there is a god would not change my actions. People who perform good actions only because of their religion, and not out of the goodness of their hearts, are performing good deeds with corrupt intentions.

"Evidence" presented by government agencys could easily be controlled by a select few. If you don't think that is possible then you're being very naive. Religions today can be corrupt and borderline evil, I'm not arguing you on that. I'm not talking about a christian God though, I'm talking about a creator, whatever that means.

Do you believe that the Russian space agencies selectively presented evidence to the Russian government?

And I know you weren't being specific to Christianity. But religions serve as a way to acknowledge and follow the teachings of their "creator". If the people in these religions already act corrupt and borderline evil when they believe in a creator, why would more people believing in religion or a creator stop them from acting corrupt and borderline evil?

Yes, I do believe that. Same with NASA. I believe it's all a grand deception keeping us down, hiding our true meaning and value. :-)

So you believe the Russian government was fooled by it's Russian space programs.

And you again ignored my main point.

And I know you weren't being specific to Christianity. But religions serve as a way to acknowledge and follow the teachings of their "creator". If the people in these religions already act corrupt and borderline evil when they believe in a creator, why would more people believing in religion or a creator stop them from acting corrupt and borderline evil?

I think there are just too many unanswered questions from both sides.

What unanswered questions are there on the round earth side?

Why are all the lakes that have been measured, flat? But not the sea?

Why does the sun behave as if it were small and local?

Why do people observe moonlight to be colder than moon shadow?

Why are all sun rays not straight?

Exactly where does space begin? Where is the line where gravity separates our atmosphere from the vacuum of space?

Why don't we have any images of satellites in space? (No CGI) But have local 'satellites' hanging on balloons?

Also, this. They are trying to debunk the claim in the thread, still did not see any evidence of that halfway through. [I have more links to other evidence if you want]

Why are all the lakes that have been measured, flat? But not the sea?

It isn't flat, it is level.

A line or surface to which, at every point, a vertical or plumb line is perpendicular; a line or surface which is everywhere parallel to the surface of still water; -- this is the true level, and is a curve or surface in which all points are equally distant from the center of the earth, or rather would be so if the earth were an exact sphere. [1913 Webster]

Why does the sun behave as if it were small and local?

It doesn't.

Why do people observe moonlight to be colder than moon shadow?

It isn't. Point a FLIR at the moon and you will see it gives off heat

Why are all sun rays not straight?

They are, why do you think they aren't?

Exactly where does space begin? Where is the line where gravity separates our atmosphere from the vacuum of space?

It is a pressure gradient. Pressure decreases slowly as you get higher from the surface.

Why don't we have any images of satellites in space? (No CGI) But have local 'satellites' hanging on balloons?

There are pictures. If satellites aren't real then why are GPS signals Doppler shifted?

Also, this. They are trying to debunk the claim in the thread, still did not see any evidence of that halfway through. [I have more links to other evidence if you want]

No, they have measured many lakes to be flat, not level.

Hot spots have been observed, and it certainly seems to be the same size as the moon.

I'm not saying the moon does not give off heat, I am saying it is colder in the moonlight than in the moonshadow.

Good observation, my mistake, ehat I meant to ask is, why are the sun rays not parallel from our viewpoint?

Here I disagree, have you seen what happens to something if place in a decreasing pressure state until a vacuum is formed?

Show me the pictures then please. I know what the doppler affect is and it does not prove satallites are in space. It can still be true for these satallites.

Also, sorry for late reply..

I am saying it is colder in the moonlight than in the moonshadow.

You aren't correct https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/43l25n/why_does_moonlight_seem_to_be_colder_than_the/

have you seen what happens to something if placed in a decreasing pressure state until a vacuum is formed?

Please tell me what happens.

I know what the doppler affect is and it does not prove satallites are in space. It can still be true for these satallites.

How does one get a receiver position dependent Doppler shift if the transmitters aren't moving much at all? You can use the shift to work out the speed of the transmitting object and it shows they are moving very quickly. In fact the speed it shows exactly matches what is required for them to orbit and the altitude they are said to orbit. If they moved that fast in atmo then they would put off an amazing amount of heat that could be detected.

Show me the pictures then please.

Please define precisely what evidence you will accept and I will provide it.

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What is your science behind the earth being flat? Do you have to circumnavigate the globe yourself to be disproven? Do you have any idea the amount of resources it would take to try and prove to the world it was flat when it wasnt? How many millions of people would have to be in on it? To what end? What would be the point of such a rouse ?

Sorry I'm not going to recognize this claim of yours - that you only said ridicule. That's not the issue at hand - that's a strawman. You said "suicide" - here are your words again.

if you think the world is flat, the thing you can do for our species is suicide

That's the issue I was bringing to everyone's attention, /u/SlickInfinity - don't try to change the subject.

But you don't really want to own that opinion, do you?

You know you shouldn't have said it - because you tried to deny it above. You tried to claim you only wanted flat earthers to be ridiculed - that's not very honest of you, is it?

Why aren't you being honest about your opinion?

I appreciate your attempts to temper your position, however, it is still a very bigoted opinion. Will you admit that you are a bigot? i.e., someone who is intolerant of people with differing opinions?

Whether you want an entire segment of the population who thinks differently than you to be sterilized or to kill themselves, this is still bigotry. Do you realize you are promoting bigoted ideas and actions?

You should be able to express yourself without calling for the extermination of an entire segment of the population that doesn't conform to your way of thinking. You seem to have all sorts of problems. Speaking your mind should not involve telling someone to kill themselves or saying that people need to be sterilized. This is not the behavior of a normal healthy person - please seek some help.

Seems like he's trying to drag you into a flame war, rather than an evidence-based debate. Could be a troll, just ignore him.

Rule 1

Why do the stars in the Southern and northern hemisphere revolve about different poles? Also why do all of the stars in the sky map seamlessly and perfectly to a sphere? Seriously people. All it takes to debunk flat earth is to literally look up.

Yes, /u/natavism, please answer the above questions.

Also please explain away this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes#Measurement_of_the_Earth%27s_circumference

I genuinely want to hear your answers. We believe that there is empirical evidence of the earth being spherical, along with all the other planets and the sun. If you believe that all the other planets and the sun are spherical but the earth is not... I would really like to know why. You believe that there is empirical evidence that the earth is not flat. I would like to understand your point of view. I do believe that it is flawed, but I want to hear your position.

Already addressed.

Eratosthenes "proof" or claim of measurement is totally absurd and here's why - he assumes a nearly infinitely distant sun with parallel rays. Look at the sun coming through clouds or any other obstruction sometime - the rays aren't parallel. Eratosthenes didn't measure anything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVa2UmgdTM4

How would you expect those rays to look on a spherical Earth with a distant sun? Can you draw an example?

Eratosthenes presumed they would be parallel - we can see with our eyes everyday they're not parallel.

They are exactly as parallel as the globe earth/heliocentric model would predict. Granted, the Sun isn't a perfect point source, but for all intents and purposes the rays are parallel.

Ironically, the reason crepuscular rays trip up flat earthers in this regard is one of your favorite scapegoats: perspective.

Given a perfect point source of light a long distance away and parallel rays, how would you expect crepuscular rays to look down here? Seriously, think about it.

I have thought about it at length - sorry, the heliocentric model is totally broken - it does not represent our reality at all. There are many ways you can know this - I recommend checking out "Kings Dethroned" by Gerrard Hickson - he covers this in great detail and he was an astronomer himself.

The only thing we need to explain the behavior of the Sun is solid knowledge of perspective - this explains it's setting motion - there's no need to assume a vastly distant sun or assume that earth is a ball.

I have thought about it at length

Well, what was your conclusion? How do your observations clash with how you would expect parallel rays to behave? Can you illustrate how you would expect crepuscular rays to look if they were parallel and from a point source?

No offense but you seem to be trolling - I'm just saying that I don't need any special explanation to explain what I see. The sun apparently sinking etc is all just perspective. The only thing you have to imagine is the curvature or sphericity of the earth because it's not there.

I'm listening, I just want to know how you arrived at the conclusion that the sun's rays are not parallel. You say it's not what we observe, but what observations are you talking about exactly? Can you give an example, please?

Go outside, look at pictures, go actually use your own senses - the suns rays clearly splay out as if it's a relatively local light source, not one that is millions of miles away. I don't need to demonstrate this - the sun is demonstrating this all the time. Go check it out.

To determine which of the two models is correct by way of observation you would need a prediction of what kind of observations to expect with each model.

Hence my question, how would you expect it to look if the sun were a point source very far away? Would the rays not splay out due to perspective? Can you illustrate how you would expect it to look?

Just follow the scientific method and look at the history.

When we look at the sun in the distance, the light splays out from trees / clouds as if it's close by - maybe hundreds of miles, not millions

How can you know that's indicative of the sun being close by if you don't have any idea how it would look if it were far away?

Make predictions, then test them to see how they hold up. That's the gist of the scientific method. If you don't have any predictions as to how the sun's ray would appear under either model before observing, you're not using the scientific method.

I urge you to drop your defenses for a second and just think independently about how rays from a very distant point source would appear if they hit the ground "over there" on either side of you.

So you're assuming the Sun is far away because you don't know what it would look like if it were far away?

sigh

I hope you're trolling, because if you're not you're one of the most stubborn, closed-minded people I've ever encountered. I'm out.

Exactly - you're just assuming :)

You can't convince me the heliocentric model was derived scientifically because I know it wasn't. End of story. Have a good one.

/u/Natavism

Why does looking up prove the shape of the earth? That's preposterous :)

Look at the earth - you'll see it's flat.

I’m sensing a wink wink nudge nudge here, but for anyone really curious still, the reason this proves the Earth is not flat is that if it were, the fact that the sky maps to a sphere means that there would be either one observed celestial pole or two necessarily situated on opposite horizons. This is of course in addition to the simple and easily observable fact that the spherical sky changes exactly accordingly between different locations as it would should you use a globe Earth as your geographical model. Ergo: Earth is round. QED. Can we please stop this nonsense now?

No, you're wrong and that's fallacious reasoning. Measure the earth, not the sky. If you measure the earth, you can easily tell it's flat and motionless in many different ways.

Actually no, that’s a real proof whether you like it or not. I offer it in this way not because you can’t easily see or measure the curvature of the earth by looking st the earth itself, but because I’m guessing your response to any of those proofs would be essentiall, “nu uh! That’s fake.”

Also worth noting, you’ve never put forth any so called proof that earth is flat despite your claims that it is provable. And you haven’t addressed either of my original points. I sincerely hope you are actually doing a bit here. At this point I can’t tell.

Measuring the paths of objects in the sky is a better way of finding the shape of the earth than measuring the shape of the earth?

...

That's wack that someone would say that to you, but I would like to hear more about how the scientific method says the world is flat. Can you expand on that?

Sure - these experiments were designed decades and centuries ago, but they still hold up. It's a bit of a rabbit hole, but check out James Bradley and his experiments on stellar aberration, Sagnac experiment, Michelson / Morley, and Airy's Failure.

You can also read "King Dethroned" by Gerrard Hickson in PDF form for free. He was an astronomer that wrote a book giving many examples of how we can know that the current heliocentric model is wrong and how it was hoaxed. link

I'll check it out. Why would the moon and sun and every other planet be round but the earth isnt though?

Props to you natavism for standing up for your beliefs! It boggles my mind how much hatred and closed-mindedness the flat earth theory inspires from so many supposedly open-minded people on a conspiracy forum.

At the very least, I’ve seen tons of scientific evidence that calls into question the validity of the globe earth. Keep fighting for your beliefs... haters gonna hate.

I've also done some flat earth street protesting outside of Harvard and MIT so reddit clowns don't worry me too much.

Thanks for the props, always nice to get some positive thoughts among all the hate :)

Instead of standing up for his beliefs, perhaps he should be a little more open-minded and inspect his beliefs carefully.

I am a flat earther that is not Christian or religious at all - I only know the earth is flat because of the scientific method - nothing else.

Try this scientific method. Take a helicopter ride up to around 3000 ft AGL. You'll see the curve of the earth yourself, and be able to put this whole thing to rest.

Sorry, you're totally wrong, and here's why:

First of all, merely taking an observation and then speculating about that observation is not how the scientific method goes - look into it.

Second, I've been on airplanes that go much higher and there's no visible curvature - unless the windows are rounded.

Sorry, you're totally wrong, and here's why:

You don't have to be sorry, but I am not wrong.

First of all, merely taking an observation and then speculating about that observation is not how the scientific method goes - look into it.

Interesting. I'll remember that the next time I look into a microscope.

Second, I've been on airplanes that go much higher and there's no visible curvature - unless the windows are rounded.

Those curved windows preclude you from being able to appreciate the curvature of the earth. That's why I suggested a helicopter, rather than a commercial airliner. I was able to look right out of a UH-1 Huey, as did several others. We all noted to each other at that moment that the earth is in fact round.

I appreciate you attempting to debunk my personal observations, but if you are serious, then I recommend you take a helicopter ride up to 3000 AGl and see for yourself.

Scientific method is not simply to observe and then speculate what you're observing. That's wrong and dumb :)

Have you seen this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcdBFfoi3uU

Cody's Lab is a science channel. He observes and reports. What is your opinion of this experiment and his other videos?

Earth is flat and motionless and you're not going to prove it's moving with a telescope. Look into the actual science experiments I've already listed elsewhere.

No, that isn't the point of the video. He points his telescope across a really big body of water at a distant known landmark. The curvature of the earth can be measured accurately this way. What is your response? If the earth is flat, bodies of water should not curve. They should be held flat by the force of gravity.

You seem to be very confused - is this a new issue for you?

Countless others across centuries have done curvature tests that show no curvature at all - there are photographs to verify.

Then the discovery channel does a piece to "debunk" flat earth and they magically find a curve? This doesn't address any of the physics of history of the issue, they're just claiming to have magically found some bent water. Sorry, no, earth is flat and motionless. Always has been, always will be.

All right. Have you done it yourself? A laser is a simple piece of equipment. I myself have seen cars disappear over the horizon on the dry lake bed at Burning Man. It's an utterly flat piece of land 26 miles across. (It has to be perfectly flat because it's a dry lake bed... in the winter, a tiny film of water on the surface of the bed scours away any roughness and leaves the lake bed glasslike and flat when it evaporates.)

I've also seen ships disappear over the horizon.

I'm not trying to debunk your beliefs. Even if I thought they were totally wrong, you're certainly entitled to believe what you want to believe. What I think is irrelevant. What I am trying to do is understand how you are thinking. (I'm somewhat unfamiliar with the belief system behind the flat-earth theory.) I believe that there is empirical evidence, which is reproducible, which shows that the earth is not flat. You believe otherwise. I would like to understand more about what you believe is empirical, reproducible evidence that the earth is flat. Because clearly it cannot both be flat and not flat. So someone's version of empirical evidence is faulty. Please understand that I am not accusing you of anything; I am just trying to understand your point of view.

I've done curvature tests myself - they come back flat. The NatGeo test is a clown show.

Ships don't disappear "over the horizon" - I can tell this is a very VERY new topic for you.

No offense but you're giving fallacious arguments that didn't even fly 3 years ago - you need to do some specific flat earth research yourself.

There's no empirical proof of the radius of the earth, there's no proof ship's disappear due to curvature - it's due to perspective - because they reappear with zoom equipment. If it were a curve they wouldn't reappear. End of story. You wouldn't be able to zoom in past a bulge of curving water.

If you want to learn more, try watching "History of the Flat Earth" by Eric Dubay - he answers all the basic questions like yours quickly and effectively.

I'm trying to understand your point of view. Don't just say it's a clown show... I'd like to know your detailed opinion if you have the patience to explain it to me.

They literally flew a helicopter over a body of water and it disappeared. He looked at it in a telescope. What is the explanation for this phenomenon? This is a direct contradiction to what you just said. It does not reappear.

We are still subject to the laws of perspective - we cannot see forever. We have a circle of sight - and approaching the limits of the circle we'll start to get some miraging. These factors are still present, and these factors are also added to by some atmospheric influences as well - though generally less than is claimed.

We can still know it's flat because when conditions are clearest, and we can see the farthest - it always appears completely flat and level. Add to this many observations which have been made for centuries about various lighthouses etc being viewable from up to 200 miles away - that sort of view is completely impossible on a ball planet of the size they claim.

Okay, so you are addressing the mirage issue here. What about the helicopter in the video that flew over the horizon and disappeared? You didn't address that. He was watching it with a telescope. It didn't just get smaller. It went over the horizon.

Things going away from us above the horizon always disappear from the bottom - they don't go over anything.

Not sure I understand. Can you explain further?

It's a matter of perspective - if you're sitting on a beach, or if you have a camera placed near the ground, and someone walks away from you you will first lose sight of their feet, then the bottoms of their legs, etc. Things always disappear from the bottom up, but this does not mean they are going over a curve.

This is also why the Sun appears to "set" - it's disappearing from the bottom - but this is simply because its traveling away from us on a flat plane.

That's wrong and dumb :)

How rich and hypocritical of you to say this.

Scientific method - make an conservation, form a question, make further observations, form a hypothesis, make further observations, perform an expeiment, make further observations, perform experiments again, analyze data and draw conclusion.

You've undergone step 1, way to be.

Hey, totally not a flat earther, but, can you see the curvature of the earth at 3,000 ft? I don't think you can. Even at 37,000 ft (cruising altitude for commercial airliners) the curvature is still not readily apparent.

You can. We jumped out of Hueys from 3500 agl and we absolutely saw the curvature of the earth.

When you are at 37000 feet, you are looking through curved plastic windows.

I jumped 14,000 ft, don't remember if I saw the curvature or not, although I did not spend too much time scrutinizing the horizon. I thought, based on my reading various sources, for the naked eye to see the curvature on the horizon you need to eb around 35,000ft with a wide angle view.

I jumped 14,000 ft, don't remember if I saw the curvature or not, do not think that I did, although I did not spend too much time scrutinizing the horizon. I thought, based on my reading various sources, for the naked eye to see the curvature on the horizon you need to be around 35,000ft with a wide angle view.

Interesting. When we learned how to jump we were taught to focus on the horizon. Of course I didn't jump HALO. 3500 AGL was the highest I ever jumped.

I mean, I was tandem... so my job was to take in the sights... 14000ft you don't really need oxygen either.

I wouldn't know. How do you take sights?

Oh, sorry, was being clever, it was recreational jump, my job was to be the tourist and take in the view... did not mean that I was doing anything technical. Simply was looking around at landmarks I recognized and the natural beauty and did not spend a lot of time looking at the horizon.

If you’ve ever flown on an airplane?

That is my point, at 37,000ft cruising, I think the naked eye can just start to make out the curvature. Its no striking by any means. With Concorde which flew closer to 60,000 feet, definitely more striking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVa2UmgdTM4

I am not a flat earther. Erasthosenes was right, the earth is a roughly 26000 mile diameter ball orbiting our sun. In turn the sun is in the milky way orbiting a giant black hole, which in turn is one of many galaxies formed in the big bang likely eternally expanding from each other.

What that video is things dipping beyond the horizon, which is because of the earth's curvature. Why I am talking about is seeing the horizontal curvature of the earth with the naked eye which requires being at around 35,000ft with a 60 degree field of view.

Flat earth is a CIA psyop intended to work on literally the lowest IQs on the internet and discredit every other truth or conspiracy online. You’re not one of us, dumb fuck.

To be fair, said CIA psyop is also affecting you even if you don't believe in it. This wonderfully executed piece of manipulative social engineering successfully sows discord between similar conspiracy-minded individuals. The psyop keeps us bickering amongst each other in an endless loop.

I have a monthly UFO Meetup that I attend in my town. In the past year, 3 out of 12 meetups devolved into Flat Earth spats between people attending the event (three vociferously believed in FE, the rest of the room vociferously advocated spherical Earth). The original intent of the meetup got derailed each time.

As someone once wisely pointed out, you get to have your own opinions, but you don't get to have your own facts. Also: doesn't he get to have the opinion that you (or me, or anybody) is a dumbass?

Yeah, and do you think Antarctica surrounds the perimeter of the planet, as the Flat Earth videos say? Don't you think someone would have, you know, bumped into it in a plane or boat?

You are rare. Intensely stupid, but not religious.
I would like to join OP in asking you to sterilize yourself, or better yet, permanently remove yourself from society via whatever means you prefer. Beforehand though, give yourself a hearty pat on the back for not joining a church, well done.

You go ahead and call me whatever names you wish, because words have meaning, and don't mean whatever you want them to mean. Bigot is a beloved word by stupid people with stupid opinions, who simply cannot understand why their opinions are so fucking stupid, therefore anyone calling them stupid dismissively is a bigot. I'm intolerant of stupid opinions posted as if they were science. Your views are not exposing a conspiracy, they are merely idiotic. I guarantee you were poorly educated, and those poor critical thinking skills led you to accept this deluded nonsense.

Removed rule 10

I don’t believe the earth is flat but I’ve considered the idea and looked into it with an open mind. I just wasn’t convinced. I don’t understand the vitriol of some people about theories they dismiss as absurd. Like when people try to “mic drop” about why don’t you sail off the edge. At least look into the claims before countering. There are things brought up by flat-earthers that I can’t explain, but perhaps I could if I was more knowledgeable in the field. As it is, I’m unconvinced.

I only know the earth is flat because of the scientific method

What definition of the scientific method are you using here?

You are a gravity denier too, then.

Did you realize that?

For the species. Like really. At the least do not reproduce. Not for me. For the species.

Way too late

We are all doomed.

You know, you really shouldn't fear other people's opinions. If your way of thinking is justified, I'm sure it would do well in a free speech environment.

That's just plainly stupid. You have call out stupid when you see it. Are people will feed the stupid. The stupid becomes normal. Then before you know it we have to crack our heels and cry hail hitler. Because stupid was given a chance.

Are people will feed the stupid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVa2UmgdTM4

Here.

People claim the earth is round and yet they cannot prove it in this thread.

If it's so obvious, do the math right here, confirm it through repetition of multiple trials, and then teach other people so they can confirm it for themselves.

There's just one issue...

Saying "the scientific method" doesn't mean shit if you can't use it to prove your argument. And I know that 99% of the people attacking flat earthers cannot.

That's your problem. You have to many beliefs and know nothing. You can make "Maths" to say anything. If you believe anything coming out of NASA or any Theoretical Physicist then you will always be a Moron. Do your own research and use the Scientific Method.

You said after 10 seconds you dismissed the flat earth theory. You gave it just about no thought. If you legitimately want to know what can be possible, you wouldn't dismiss something so quickly.

So basically, if you don't understand it, it can't possibly be true?

There is no excuse for not understanding something that you believe in. Beliefs will get you in trouble. Knowledge and the lack of ignorance is the path to truth. Believing vs Knowing.....

You have no excuse then.

Do your own research and use the Scientific Method.

Explain GPS.

Rain drops are round, so the earth is round too? That's literally stupider than almost every single flat earth argument. I think you must have been pretty "stupified" yourself if you include "raindrops being round" as an argument for the earth's shape.

plant cells are rectangular.

But plant cells didn't begin existence as a liquid in a zero-g or microgravity environment.

neither did rain drops?

When they're falling, they're in freefall. And they're liquid.

It's how gravity works. It's the same as diffusion. The way things distribute on their own to make a homogenous mixture. Gravity does that too. Unless of course you don't believe in diffusion.

... for the Earth, gravity pulls equally across the surface towards the center, while a raindrop is unidormally pulled downwards.

Raindrops are not spherical when they fall, they flatten out due to air resistance.

I see flat earth as a thought exercise. An interesting concept to ponder. Everyone seemed to get to serious go overboard with it, in both directions.

If you hate flat earthers you may want to look at the UN flag. It is literally a flat earther map.

It is a thought exercise, from what I can gather some professor set this theory to his students to see what they could come up with. Idea being that you need to be carful when creating theories and presenting evidence as you can “prove” nonsense

No my friend, the flatearther map is a U.N. map not the other way around ....

Nobody in Columbus's time (and before) thought the earth was flat, it was never even an issue. Nobody today seriously thinks the earth is flat.

The flat earth thing was a joke started in the 1830's

Pythagoras knew the earth was round. This basic knowledge goes back thousands of years and even before, how else would ancient structures align with the stars?

Eratosthenes found the circumference of the Earth that was used for millennia, until more precise measures could be used.

Wait, so you believe that Trump has a time machine, but that 9/11 was done by men in caves who hate us for our freedoms?

Men in caves. It's like you think cause they're brown they cant fly a plane. Hell they didn't even have to do the hardest part of flying (take off and landing).

Gaslighting.

UBL was an intelligent educated man, as were many of the members of al-queda. In fact in addition to traditional education many of the older members received weapons and training from america as members of the mujaheddin fighting the soviets. 9/11 was no conspiracy. Not to mention simply flying a plane is not very difficult, flying one safely and correctly is, but the hijackers didn't need to do either of those things,

Im aware the original moderator/owner of this channel also doesn't believe in flat earth. I also vaguely remember a guideline saying not to talk about flat earth here on conspiracy theory. That's unfair because the majority of the world has never been to outter space to begin with. Nasa and the One World Government has been lying to us about everything that has to do with space. A good example is the 60's "moon landings". What makes you believe the earth is round and spinning? In these days when we are being set up for the worlds great deception, and the fake alien hoax invasion that they are preparing for us. Our ancestors had ancient wisdom and knowledge which has been replaced by pseudo-science which most ppl blindly follow with out any questions whatsoever. It's a shame when other conspiracy theorist dismiss their fellow brethren who are also on the same path to seek the truth that has been hidden from us.

Yup, im all for having your opinion and all but to think the earth is flat you likely have some sort of mental disability or are a troll.

Honestly, I'm neither of those :/ I'm not the one insulting ppl for their opinions.

Where did i insult? lmao its not an opinion, it takes a 2 second google search to prove it. Its the same as saying "There are more than 2 genders and thats my opinion", like no, its scientifically proven there are only 2.

I guess you've never heard of a hermaphrodite then who is literally caught between 2 genders.

You said it yourself. Caught between two genders. That doesn't make a third one. Hermaphrodite means having sexual characteristics of both genders. That person is both a male and female. 2 genders.

What a coincidence. This theory seems to divide the conspiracy crowd to an extent. How convenient.

Yup. It's a PSYOP. If it doesn't apply, let it fly. No point in trying to argue with trolls and shills. And anyone who is serious and neither of the aforementioned is not worth any sort of discussion whatsoever.

You’ve gotta be a special kinda stupid to think the earth is flat

Why does somebody feel the need to call out flat earthers every single day "we get it". I see 10x more people calling flat earth stupid then actual flat earthers. Actually Makes me think there is something more to "flat earth" then meets the eye lol.

None of those people have posted the math for proving the earth is flat, and I'd guess that most of them aren't mathematically inclined enough to go through the process anyway.

They just talk about all of their evidence without linking to it, sourcing it, or fully understanding it.

That's not what the scientific method is.

Flat earth retards are just uneducated people who believe in mythology and are terrible at math. It’s sad but just ignore them.

Hmmmm the trolls out on force on this one. Anyone who takes the time to research this will find some rather interesting arguments. Like gyroscopes never move with the rotation of the earth. Why are planes never effected by the rotation, at what point do you stop being effected by the rotation when you go up ? the mountain experiment. And the laser across the lake experiment. All very interesting arguments.

However I’m not sure. But then I’m not sure the earth is a moving ball either. So who knows.

I am fairly sure we are a simulated reality but that’s another thing.

Figured I'd have to scroll to the bottom to find a rational comment like this.

Ignorance is not rational. Not knowing how something works doesn't make it any less real.

Assuming you understand how everything works without actually knowing isn't very rational either. What is rational is that this commenter has genuine questions based on actual research and knows enough to know that they don't fully know either way just yet. It's well documented that NASA lies to us. What's ignorant and irrational is someone who would actually believe everything they tell us without questioning and researching for themselves.

Theres no excuse for being ignorant. If your whole theory is based on we can't really know anything for sure, thats fine. Don't base it on ignorance and refusal to even google basic scientific questions that most children learn about it. NASA didn't invent astrophysics, scientific research or even GPS, NASA have nothing to do with the earth being flat or not. They don't hold a monopoly on going to space, other countries have done it.

There's no excuse for being an asshole, either. If someone has legitimate questions about research they've done that completely contradicts what mainstream science would like us to believe is true, then obviously there is a conflict there. It's ok to ask questions and continue to research. What's not ok is pretending you know everything and putting everyone down around you who just because they don't know believe what you know believe while simultaneously disregarding legitimate research that contradicts your current paradigm.

They are not legitimate questions. It is trolling or stupidity. Being stupid is fine unless your presenting your lack of knowledge as fact, at that point people are quite rightly going to turn into assholes.

They are not legitimate questions.

You don't get to decide which questions are or aren't legitimate. OP clearly has some unanswered questions and needs further research and proof to sway his mind either way. There's nothing stupid about that.

Being stupid is fine unless your presenting your lack of knowledge as fact

Isn't this exactly what you're doing? You're telling everyone else that they're wrong and you're right even though you've never been far enough from earth to see its shape. Nor have you seen one legitimate photo of earth from such a distance that hasn't been photoshopped.

at that point people are quite rightly going to turn into assholes

I'm pretty sure you're the only one who has the ability to decide whether or not you're going to be an asshole to others. OP's legitimate questions about his own research are irrelevant to how you treat others. Why put him and others down instead of enlightening them with the truth?

Why are planes never effected by the rotation

for the same reason that if you throw a ball up inside a train going 100km/h it wont fly full speed to the back of the train. Because that ball like you, the air and everything on the train is also going 100km/h

We’re not inside a train. So how far up do you have to go to not be effected ?

> We’re not inside a train.

good catch.

past the Kármán line (100km) which is often used as the definition of the edge of space, is around the height where earth rotation will no longer effect you through fluid drag

Shame we can’t go up there and see it for ourselves.

And why are bunkers effected by the Coriolis effect ?

Out of the gravity well wont be enough, you're still affected by sun, and the galaxy.

Outside earths atmosphere. The atmosphere is the train car, hurling through space.

The fact I need to explain this shows how fucked our education system is.

Like gyroscopes never move with the rotation of the earth.

Laser gyros do.

And the laser across the lake experiment.

That FECORE cluster fuck where they got the math wrong?

Shouldn’t need to be a laser gyro. And planes don’t have laser gyros.

As for the cluster fuck. Watch a boring hour of the mountain experiment and the measures they went to. It’s pretty conclusive.

From youtube - not mine - regarding FECORE.

FECore's conclusion "the earth is flat" is based on wrong calculations, errors in the calculations, using Snell's law wrong, assuming a flat earth and a wrong physical model of the atmosphere.

It is really embarassing what they published. Either all FECore members are too stupid to even execute simple trigonometric calculations with a calculator or they did not review the paper at all before publishing their paper to find this obvious errors in their refraction correction calculations.

4 fatal Errors in FECores laser experiments

Note: I will use the values of the 4th measurement on the lake Ijssel as an example:

Distance = 28.68 km Laser height = 2.85 m Laser visible height at target = 0.85 m Temperature at 2.85 m height = 11.8°C Temperature at 0.85 m height = 7.6°C Refraction index n1 at 11.8°C = 1.000283508 (source?) Refraction index n2 at 7.6°C = 1.000286716 (source?)

First of all, refraction in the atmosphere is gradual. It depends mainly on the temperature Gradient (change of the temperature with height), which results in a corresponding density Gradient. If you have a density gradient, you can't simply apply Snell's law like FECore did. See Error 4 how refraction is correctly derived.

Snell's law: sin( theta2 ) / sin( theta1 ) = n1 / n2

Where theta1 is the angle of incidence (angle of the ray measured against the perpendicular to the boundary layer) in the medium with refractive index n1 and theta2 is the angle of incidence in the medium with refractive index n2.

Error 1: using Snell's law with the wrong angle of incidence

FECore used not the angle of incidence but the angle measured up from the boundary layer. So they should have used 90°-0.0040° for theta1. But FECore did not even get the calculation right with the angle 0.004°. Using the wrong angle of incidence from FECore should result in:

theta2 = arcsin( sin( theta1 ) * n1 / n2 ) = arcsin( sin( 0.004° ) * 1.000283508 / 1.000286716 ) = 0.003999987°

FECore got 0.0000012184657704270384°

So lets use the correct angle of incidence which is theta1 = 90°-0.004° = 89.996°. In this case the FECore "refraction angle" theta2 would be:

theta2 = 90° - arcsin( sin( 90°-theta1 ) * n1 / n2 ) =>

theta2 = 90° - arcsin( sin( 89.996° ) * 1.000283508 / 1.000286716 ) = 0.14516°

FECore got 0.0000012184657704270384°. That is 120,000 times too less!

Note: Snell's law is generally true only for isotropic (the same refractive index in all directions) or specular media. Air is not isotropic.

Error 2: calculation error

I wondered how FECore got the peculiar refraction angle of 0.0000012184657704270384°, because I get 0.003999987° using their values. I finally figured it out. FECore not only used the wrong angle of incidence, but could not even compute the correct result with the angle of incidence they used. They did not convert angles from rad to degrees and vice versa at the right places:

The angle mode of sin and arcsin was set to radian. They correctly converted theta1 from degrees to radian by multiplying with pi / 180° before executing the sin function. But before computing the arcsin they again converted degrees to rad multiplyed with pi / 180°. This is wrong because the value is not even an angle at this step of the calculation. They must first take the arcsin to get an angle in radian and then convert the result back to degrees by multiplying with 180° / pi.

wrong: theta2 = arcsin( [sin( theta1 * pi / 180° ) * n1 / n2] * pi / 180° ) = 0.0000012184657704270384°

right: theta2 = arcsin( [sin( theta1 * pi / 180° ) * n1 / n2] ) * 180° / pi = 0.00399998735°

with theta1 = 0.004°, n1 = 1.000283508, n2 = 1.000286716. Note theta2 = 0.00399998735° is the correct result of this equation but wrong because it uses the wrong FECore angle of incidence theta1 = 0.004°. Garbage in, garbage out. But FECore could not even get this right.

FECore most likely used the built in calculator of MS Windos as I did to figure out their results. I cross checked my findings with the published values of Experiment 3. They did the same error there too and most likely on all other measurements too (did not check all experiments).

Error 3: invalid equation and wrong refrecation correction

To compute the refraction angle, FECore used the following formula (Snell's law), but with the wrong angle theta1, see Error 1:

FECore's formula as published: sin(theta2) = (n1 * sin(theta1)) / n2 = 0.0000012184657704270384°

This is not even a valid equation, because you have different units on each side of the equation (sin(theta2) is not an angle). The mathematically correct equation would be something like:

theta2 = arcsin( (n1 * sin(theta1)) / n2 ) = 0.0000012184657704270384°

Lets compute now the refraction correction using the wrong "FECore refraction theory" (see Error 4) but with the correct calculated refraction angle theta2 = 0.14516°.

FECore computed the refraction correction simply using the following equation, which I have reconstructed from the published values (theta2 in degrees):

correction = dist * tan( theta2 * pi / 180° )

So the correction according to FECore is:

correction_FECore = dist * tan(theta2pi/180°) = 28680 m * tan(0.0000012184657704270384pi/180) = 0.610 mm

Using the right angle of incidence and refraction angle (theta1 = 90°-0.0040°, theta2 = 0.14516°) we get a refraction correction of:

correction = 28680 m * tan( 0.14516 * pi / 180 ) = 72.7 m

So FECore published a refraction correction value of 0.610 mm. This value results from the wrong "refraction theory" using Snell's law wrong (wrong angle of incidence) and making calculation errors. If we use the same wrong theory, but the right angle of incidence and without making calculation errors, we get a refraction correction of 72.7 m. The published FECore value is 120,000 times too small, even if their refraction model would be correct!

The calculated hidden height was 40.21 m. So the refraction correction of 72.7 m would make the laser visible from the ground without problems on the globe.

Error 4: stupid refraction model

FECore assumed a flat earth and that the air consists of 2 flat layers with constant refractive indices. The lower layer with refractive index n2 = 1.000286716 is assumed to go from ground level to 2.85 m, which is just below the height of the laser. Above that, where the laser is placed, they assumed a layer with refractive index n1 = 1.000283508. The "refraction theory" FECore used is that the laser enters with an angle of 0.004° from the n1 layer at the position of the laser the n2 layer. From there on they assumed light does not get bent the whole distance to the target.

This is complete BS!

The air is not composed of a few layers with constant refractive indices, that very conveniently have their boundaries at exactly the right height to make the calculations of the refraction correction easy.

Fuck off mate

It’s pretty conclusive.

Fuck off mate

So you aren't going to respond? I thought you cared about facts and the truth?

Who said that was fact ? It’s purposefully a load of nonsense to swamp a subject. I see it often with the mountain experiment which is never answered in a straight forward manner. In truth I don’t think the earth is flat but not to I think it’s a globe. Both have yawning problems with them.

What are the problems with the globe?

And you did mention the FECORE experiment which they didn't do correctly.

What are the problems with the globe ?

Let’s look at the first problem. We can see it with our own eyes. Doesn’t take any bullshit maths and trigonometry. Just look at the moon when the sun is out. Does it look like it reflects the sun ? Now since you aren’t looking at the moon and sun right now you can’t answer. If you do, you give yourself away. Surely the truth is more important ?

Does it look like it reflects the sun

Yes. What should it look like if you think it doesn't reflect the light from the Sun?

See you didn’t even look. Case in point. Go regurgitate Wikipedia to someone who cares

See you didn’t even look

Actually I have a understand of the flat Earth arguments on this topic but they vary wildly between people which is why I asked you to tell me your stance on the issue.

That you are attacking me instead of having an honest discussion leads me to believe you don't have a ready answer and aren't prepared to discuss this topic in a calm and rational way.

You havent looked. That’s the end of it. I don’t believe it’s a flat earth. And I’ve already argued with you on quora I recognise the style and it’s rather boring. You feel free to prepare yourself against something you find ridiculous. Personally I don’t care what anyone thinks the earth is I don’t see why you should.

You havent looked.

Yes I have actually. BTW I don't use quora.

That you refuse to explain things you bring up is an interesting tactic.

I’m not refusing at all. You’re goading. There is a difference. I would encourage anyone to use their own eyes and brains.

You can explain the centrifugal force around the equator if you like. And why the earth is a pear shape yet there is no evidence of water bulging at the equator when it seems to have the strength to bulge rock.

I’m not refusing at all.

Then I must have missed your explanation so please link to it.

You can explain the centrifugal force around the equator if you like.

It is link 3.3 cm/sec less at the equator which isn't much.

And why the earth is a pear shape

Oblate spheroid.

3.3 cm a sec less than where ?

The poles.

Shouldn’t need to be a laser gyro.

You are correct - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921452600007535

I mentioned a laser gyro since Bob/Jeran aka Globebusters used one to detect a 15 degree per hour rotation.

I dunno man, when every conspiracy forum on the internet keeps telling people not to look in to one particular theory and ridicules anyone that does look in to it... makes me wonder.

I have often questioned the meaning of this and wrote it off as dumb, however I have come into more and more things that make it harder to do. This guy tells you some stuff but actually has done lots of research and knowledge in multilingual info as well puts some pretty confirming evidence https://universaltruthschool.com/2016/09/08/the-open-place-of-the-earth/

Theories like this are perpetuated to help debunk other theories.

I'm not.

The world is getting, IMO, far less interested in actually learning as it goes on and far more interested in taking a stance and then refuting any other possibility without bothering to actually look at it.

In a world like that, ANY theory will exist, regardless of value or lack of such.

Flat earth teaches you to question everything, even whether pedophilia is actually bad and whether Trump is actually good. Flat earth is designed to be the gerbil wheel of perpetual doubt that leads you down the road to accepting Fascism and Stalinism in the long run. Whenever you hear of flat earth know that Maoism, Rothschildian Zionism, and Transgender Orwellianism, and CIA-sponsored symbolistic schizophrenia cannot be far behind.

On a literal level I think flat earth is quite ludicrous, but on a metaphysical level who knows, maybe the earth appears round only in our dimension, perceived from our mode of consciousness.

This post is the real psyop. It's actually very obvious once you see it, it's everywhere. There is no climbing out of this rabbit hole, trust me.

Flat Earth as a "conclusion" is total nonsense. Some of the evidence flat Earthers bring up is not nonsense. NASA is clearly lying. They are hiding something big, perhaps a lost continent. South of Easter Island is a vast expanse of Ocean with no flights or shipping routes. An Island the side of Australia could easily fit there and nobody would notice.

South of Easter Island is a vast expanse of Ocean with no flights or shipping routes.

Why would ships travel along those routes in the first place?

Think what you want, but flat earth came forward from a truth researcher and has been ridiculed by main stream non stop. Like every other big truth from jfk to 911. And the moon landing is as fake as the avengers

Wait the avengers are fake?!?! Fuck my whole world toppled down on me!

Do you honestly believe that if something is ridiculed by MSM, that means it MUST be true?

Because I, personally, try to look at things with more nuance than that.

Worse still, if anyone believes that simply, it's very likely that the MSM has realized that--and they're using that very rigid belief system against those very people.

Putting words in my mouth doesn't make you right. The ridicule is just one point, all great truths go through 3 stages and that's the first. It's obvious you haven't thoroughly looked into it and are mad that a few million people are questioning the holes in the globe and NASA.

They are spinning a narrative that flat-earthers are devoid of facts and research like they themselves have proven using the scientific method that the earth is round and reproduced it enough times to verify.

(Oh wait no they haven't they don't even know the math and they are just blindly following the work of someone else without verifying it for themselves).

Because a lot of people know what happens when you try to verify things like gravity...

You find huge unexplained mathematical variables and tons of conflicting evidence.

Go figure.

Downvotes are not counterarguments or mathematical facts.

They're either fucking morons or doing it to discredit other conspiracies, don't spend too much time stressing on it, they're just idiots.

Considering the nature of existence and what we refer to as "matter", that is really just light, sound and energy constantly vibrating in and out of existence, who is to say it is not both?

What might possibly be worse is people that bother to argue with flat-earthers. Just listen to them in this thread. Do they actually sound like they believe what they are saying or do they sound like they are trolling you?

Any proof you will put before them, they just dismiss it as fake. They aren't going to debunk it, they are just going to call it fake. Any evidence of the earth being round is just fake or photo-shopped. Who would even argue with somebody like that? What's the point? You waste your time even bothering to find examples to argue with them.

They don't actually believe what they are saying, they just get a kick out of your frustration arguing with them.

I 100% agree with you on not arguing with those who will not actually debate.

Unfortunately, I find such attitudes of rigid denial seem to be more common in ALL conspiracies than I would wish. It makes it hard to debate any of it.

You have to ask yourself if it really matters whether or not you convince someone of your point. Does it change the world? Does it have any effect on your reality?

When confronted by people that say they just don't believe me when I mention a personal experience, I just shrug. If I mentioned that I am married, and 300 people online don't believe me, will I wake up and suddenly my wife will disappear?

When I do debate, it is mostly for the benefit of others reading to raise awareness to the fact the person is FOS. Not to convince the person I confront. I try (and fail a lot) to just walk away after making my point and providing evidence. Definitely if the person is clearly dishonest and not willing to debate in good faith.

There are people that genuinely believe this stuff, sorry to say. In my personal case, I believe it's due to a helplessness they feel that is offset by a grand knowledge that everyone around them is too "blind" to see. It gives them power.

I do not ascribe to Flat Earth because I think that in the consciousness hologram we are all logged into shows similar patterning at all levels of existence—from the microscopic to the macrocosmic.

I feel like our giant solar system we inhabit is not unlike the structure we see in a tiny, tiny atom—with a central nucleus (sun) and orbiting electrons (planets). In nature, things tend to form in a spherical or bubble-like form. So why would our realm "break the rules" that we see all around us in order to be flat like a coin? To me the adage "as above, so below" bears truth in things of an esoteric nature as well as a literal nature. It seems odd to me that there would be harmony expressed throughout the universe—yet the surface realm of our planet would be the aberrant exception to the rule.

But then again, we live in a consciousness matrix so I'm trying to remain open to all sorts of possibilities. Maybe higher dimensional entities will reveal to humanity that we live in a giant plastic Barbie Dreamhouse. That probably won't happen but I'm trying to remain open and flexible with my perception of "physical" reality.

Who knows, We could be in a turtle's dream in outer space.

What a brave opinion

Psyop to keep people in the conspiracy community divided and confused focusing on this nonissue

Related to the moon. It's clearly a sphere when viewed through binoculars. You can see the curvature because of the craters and how they "bend" at the edge.

Flat earth theory to some people isn't about the earth being flat or round, it's about styles of argumentation.

You should not argue in favor of things you cannot prove yourself simply because someone else told you it was so. Many people believe the earth is perfectly round, but that's easily disproved from the simple observation of Mount Everest.

The depths of the earth's oceans have never been fully explored and many people understand the moon landing was likely a hoax, but want to support narratives from those same agencies about other things such as the shape of planets. This is why you must prove it for yourself.

Saying "but the scientific method" is not good enough, if you yourself cannot use the scientific method to draw the same conclusion.

People say the scientific method proves vaccines or safe, but the scientific method also proves that the compounds contained in vaccines are harmful.

You cannot prove the earth is round. You cannot prove the earth is flat. You cannot even prove that it's anything more than a simulation.

That's the point...

The only problem I have is that it’s not just about styles of argument for some people. They just believe without looking at the science or thinking critically.

And even if the scientific method can prove that vaccines are harmful or not harmful it is very easily proven how harmful it is NOT to get vaccinated.

Perhaps if you fudge the numbers and credit vaccines for the wonders of modern plumbing and water filtration, which has eradicated far more disease than vaccines ever have.

That's the problem with statistics and data. Just like journalists and news agencies, lies are often created by omitted pertinent data contradictory to the bias of the person who found it.

Then there's the whole issue with evolution and how vaccines constantly need to be updated and often fail, like the recent flu vaccine which wasn't particularly successful at stopping the spread of the flu virus.

The same agencies that tell you to inoculate yourself support governments that drop bombs on civilians heads.

I have no idea what shape the earth is...

All I know is NASA admits that they Photoshop all the pictures of earth from space.

Even Neil science guy Tyson says that it's not exactly a sphere but more pear shaped...

I have no idea, but if people can believe in simulation theory I don't see why any other theory would be that ludicrous

I finally made an IRL fan who is always a conspiracy theorist and I was quite disappointed because they definitely believe in the flat earth theory.

Everyone knows that the earth is a donut

I believe we are living in a dome. I have no idea what’s outside of that. Stars and planets are non physical, electrical light sources. Gravity is merely density.

I find it strange that the flat earth/dome enclosed system was the norm since the bringing of time until Pythagoras came up with the ball earth though experiment. Then it was advanced by masons and jesuits. When the jesuits brought religion (and destruction) to native populations they also brought with them the flat earth model.

If you look into the history of ball earth ideology it is rife with religion, corruption, and a lack of scientific backing.

How the fuck do we see the same stars every night since ever? How the fuck do they spin in a perfect circle around Polaris? We are traveling 100,000’s of mikes through the Milky Way. How has nothing changed? Seriously. Oh is it relativity? Convienent.

Lastly, most of you guys are casuals when it comes to the truth of this world. We are controlled by occultists elites who control all aspects of our lives and say the opposite of the truth. What’s the opposite of a ball, hurtiling through space, in a vacuum? Maybe a non moving plane that’s in closed? Hmm

You’re being lied to, and you are advabcing their lies to feel superior and I hope you will see the truth some day.

How the fuck do we see the same stars every night since ever? How the fuck do they spin in a perfect circle around Polaris?

Well, by your theory, every place on earth should see the same stars. But we don't. The southern hemisphere sees some constellations, the northern hemisphere sees others. People in the southern hemisphere cannot see polaris.

In fact, the reason they rotate around polaris in the northern hemisphere is because polaris is very far away but inline with our axis of rotation (within 1 degree). And the circle is not perfect, the images you see time lapse stars rotating around polaris are just intentionally centered on polaris.

We are traveling 100,000’s of mikes through the Milky Way. How has nothing changed? Seriously. Oh is it relativity? Convienent.

Well things do change, just the scale of the universe is so great that even as we hurtle through space, in our lifetimes, or even in humanities existence is but a trivial amount of time in the scheme of the rotation of the milkyway or galaxies moving relative to one another. In 1 or 2 billion years things will look quite different.

It’s gotta be a troll

if the earth is flat , explain Australia..

You didn't hear? Flat earthers think Australia is fake now. It's a made up place and anyone who's ever been there was actually just in a specially designated part of South America. Anyone claiming to be from Australia is just an actor paid by the government. Seriously, couldn't make this shit up if I tried...

so all the webcams set up on Australian beaches are CGI ? fck..they can do some great stuff on computers these days .

I spend a fair bit of time in conspiracy forums and i saw Flat Earth skyrocket in popularity basically overnight around the time pizzagate broke in late 2016. Prior to that i'd rarely seen anyone talk about it seriously and considered it a dead topic. Since then i've seen various mainstream media organisations give airtime to the theory (pretty much the only conspiracy they'll talk about openly - which should tell you something). If you wanted to discredit the entire topic of conspiracy theory, highlighting stuff like flat earth is one way to do it.

trolls, for the most part, they then go onto other sites with proofs how gullible conspiracy theorists are.

weather they know they are only trolling each other is up for debate

example; FE1: look fe exists! (some bulllshit troll hoping for responses)

FE2: your right!!! he know what hes talking about, everyone els is stupid, (another troll sees FE1 making a post, and thinking he believes in fe eggs him on)

this goes on for some time.....

Oh so you believe 9/11 was an inside job? You must be one of those flat earthers.

That's how easy it is to discredit people now.

Dude, if you have any flat earth friends, show them this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVa2UmgdTM4

Laser beam and a lake settles it.

Flat earth is a government psyop to make conspiracy theorists look like idiots.

Flat Earth gets center stage and has been chosen for us as the token conspiracy of the community as a whole.

Makes it a whole lot easier to discredit things if you say they came from the same community that brought you Flat Earth.

The other thing about Flat Earth is that as a conspiracy it doesn’t really lead to anything. Ok, so the Earth is flat... now what? At least with Hollow Earth there are massive implications about what is going on on this planet that we don’t know about.

My favorite summee bbq trick is to pretend im a flat earther. Usually more accepted than my veganism.

Pretty obvious psyop. That and Mandela Effect and "Phantom Time".

The latest psyop is "Cultural Layer"

Notice the common underlying thread where (((they))) try to fuck with your perception of what is real and not real to make you feel like you've lost it.

I believe flat earthing posts, or more like barrage of making fun of flat earthers on reddit, precedes some major political or propoganda campaign. Its quet now, but when the front page floods with flat earther jokes. A day or two later some major news thing pops up, usually to be false or flalse flag. Happened before syrian gas attacks, happened before scripals, happened before 13 torlly bois russian trolls, happened recently with the ICE, before the news broke out reddit was again flooded with flat earther posts(making fun of, havnt actually met a legitimate flat earther....).

Why? Well I think in order to get people on board with acceoting the lie, or to go with official narrative, they stigmatise conspiracy theorists with the most ludicrous and stupid conspiracy, the flat earth. Humanity knew earth was round before ancient greece! Yet this persists. And when you browse comments of such bullshit posts that are the false narratives of the msm, you meet a circle jerk supporting the claims. Ythose that question or propose a conspriracy, are met with downvotes.

Removed. Rule 4

The earth really is flat. This isn't going away. You won't be able to hide your head in the and forever. No curvature means no globe, very simple actually.

There clearly is curvature, though. How do you explain observations like these?

Your video proved there is no curve and that we can keep bringing a boat, hull and all, back into focus after we watched it “sail over the horizon”. Obviously it didn’t go over any curve if he can zoom it n to being the whole boat back into focus, you see?

That video was a savage debunk of the ships over the horizon thing, we can watch a boat “sail over the horizon” and then zoom in to see it didn’t and then watch it “sail over the horizon” again and again and again for however far your camera is good if the conditions permit.

Savage debunk of the spinning pear, pretty solid proof the earth is flat thanks for sharing.

You wanted to link a video of someone measueing curve or motion, not video of someone proving the earth is flat I suspect.

Alright, now I'm sure you're just trolling. You can't possibly watch that video in good faith and think you can bring a ship that's halfway over the horizon back again by zooming. He demonstrated the exact opposite of that.

Better luck next time.

he cherrypicked the zoom dishonestly.

go outside to the beach yourself with a nice zoom camera. Watch a ship sailing away from you sail fully "over the curve". Then you can zoom in until you can see the bottom of the boat agian like he showed, but then if you hold the zoom still you can watch it "sail over the horizon" again and bring the bottom of the boat back in again.

It is about perspective and the vanishing point, and obviously not about cured water and we can know so because we can keep bringing the bottom of the boat back into full view indefinitly.

Yes you can bring it back in from "halfway over the horizon" because the earth is flat. What he did was shamelessly dishonest and actually proved that you just need to zoom in to see boats after they "sail over the curve".

https://i.imgur.com/sLL6wol.jpg

This is roughly what we believe it looks like.. they hide that the Earth is a habitat made by Intelligent Design.

If they allowed everyone to know this, God would be undeniable.

We changed from believing the Earth was flat to round in hundreds of years ago before we had today’s technology, and NASA still can’t provide us with a telescopic picture of earth from outer space.

I can't help but feel that you're merely trying to wrap everyone you dislike or disagree with into a neat little bundle. Why else would you mention Trump supporters? That has nothing to do with flat earthers.

How about stuff like NASA Captures "EPIC" Earth Image?

Doesn’t explain the south celestial pole. Debunked. Next case please.

But you don't really want to own that opinion, do you?

You know you shouldn't have said it - because you tried to deny it above. You tried to claim you only wanted flat earthers to be ridiculed - that's not very honest of you, is it?

Why aren't you being honest about your opinion?

You said after 10 seconds you dismissed the flat earth theory. You gave it just about no thought. If you legitimately want to know what can be possible, you wouldn't dismiss something so quickly.

When they're falling, they're in freefall. And they're liquid.

I seriously doubt Kyrie Irving is a trump supporter

NASA still can’t provide us with a telescopic picture of earth from outer space.

http://www.goes.noaa.gov/f_himawari-8.html

https://himawari8.nict.go.jp/

https://epic.gsfc.nasa.gov/

The only problem I have is that it’s not just about styles of argument for some people. They just believe without looking at the science or thinking critically.

And even if the scientific method can prove that vaccines are harmful or not harmful it is very easily proven how harmful it is NOT to get vaccinated.

No, they have measured many lakes to be flat, not level.

Hot spots have been observed, and it certainly seems to be the same size as the moon.

I'm not saying the moon does not give off heat, I am saying it is colder in the moonlight than in the moonshadow.

Good observation, my mistake, ehat I meant to ask is, why are the sun rays not parallel from our viewpoint?

Here I disagree, have you seen what happens to something if place in a decreasing pressure state until a vacuum is formed?

Show me the pictures then please. I know what the doppler affect is and it does not prove satallites are in space. It can still be true for these satallites.

Also, sorry for late reply..

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Not sure I understand. Can you explain further?