Well that is a coincidence, but in what way does this going down near Stonehenge affect anything?

If it had happened on the 21 june then Stonehenge would be relevant as that is summer solstice. However, 4 days ago was July 1.

Do you think this could be some sort of ritual? Where were they found exactly anyway?

They were supposedly poisoned at Queen Elizabeth Gardens. Prince Charles and Camilla visited Salisbury a couple of weeks ago to "help the town recover". I don't know about ritual, but it's definitely an establishment organised facade.

Stonehenge!? More like Porton Down the Uk chemical and bio research lab is within 10 miles of both incidents as is MOD Boscombe Down.

One way to discern whether such matters might be used for "propaganda purposes" is to scan the MSM outlets and see whether they are trumpeting the story;

ABC News - World - CHECK

CBS News - World - CHECK

NBC News - World - CHECK

CNN News - World - CHECK

Fox News - World - CHECK

NY Times - World - CHECK

Washington Post - World - CHECK

Yes, it's at the top of all the Usual Suspect Websites.

Pretty intense coverage for a 40-something year old couple who (apparently) were initially suspected of opioid/ cocaine use.

Also pretty amazing that they found and detected the "Russian Nerve Agent" so quickly.

RT News is reporting that it was initially thought to be drug contamination.

I saw fentanyl on a UK news source also but after the (((russians))) were blamed all traces of that article are gone

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/05/salisbury-hospital-police-fire-crews-attend-major-incident
"suspected fentanyl"

Just a small clarification regarding chemical analysis.

Wnen it's the first time that you encounter a sample and want to figure out its composition it takes a lot of time and effort to fully characterize the sample.

When you already have a hypothesis on what a sample might be, basically, when you know what you're looking for, everything goes much smoother.

So basically after the first Novichok incident got so much coverage, the guys who do chemical analysis were prepared to look for it in future poisoning cases. Regardless of if this case had Novichok or not, the technology exists for overnight characterization if you know what you're looking for.

while i agree with the premise they decided it was novichok within an hour or two of it being picked up. no lab is going to test and confirm something like this that quickly especially after the farce last time.

the first report i saw about this was already naming it russian novichok

You're wrong it took 5 days. This lie is being repeated throughout the thread.

You're wrong it took 5 days. This lie is being repeated throughout the thread.

There is a difference between a LIE and misconceptions based on fragmented information in an unfolding story.

Lies are intentional attempts to deceive, misconceptions/ misunderstandings are unintentional.

That said, thanks for the link. It demonstrates how little is known about both the present case and that of the Skripal incident, and that the 'conclusions' assigning blame in the Skripal case were based more on speculation and conjecture than on any firm, substantial evidence.

Yes, there is no direct proof it was Russia but that certainly seems most likely given Russias well documented history of assassinations using exotic agents to do so.

Just a small clarification regarding chemical analysis.

Wnen it's the first time that you encounter a sample and want to figure out its composition it takes a lot of time and effort to fully characterize the sample.

When you already have a hypothesis on what a sample might be, basically, when you know what you're looking for, everything goes much smoother.

Assuming that a sample is available?

According to this BBC article, no such sample has yet been found:

QUOTE:

Metropolitan Police Assistant Commissioner Neil Basu said they could not confirm whether the nerve agent came from the same batch but the possibility was "clearly a line of inquiry".

His officers are examining the couple's movements to determine where they were poisoned.

So far no contaminated items have been found and the police say they have no idea what the nerve agent was contained in.

Security minister Ben Wallace said: "The working assumption would be these are victims of the consequences of the previous attack or something else but not that they were directly targeted. That could change."

END QUOTE

With no container and no traces of the (alleged) substance having been found, one must presume that the determination that the substance in question was indeed Novichok must have been reached by one of two other methods:

1. By examination of blood/ urine/ tissue samples taken from the victims, or;

2. That the SYMPTOMS presented were consistent with Novichok poisoning

• If it be the former, do lab tests exists that can conclusively identify Novichok, while excluding other potential chemicals? If so, I have been unable to find evidence of such tests. A link would be appreciated.

• If it be the latter, are there no other drugs/ chemicals or combinations thereof that might produce similar symptoms? If so, what specific symptoms would be specific to Novichok?

Chemical Gurus, please chime in.

Thx!

They determined it was novichok by taking spinal fluid samples and analysing the agent bound to acetylcholinesterase enzyme.

This confirmed it was from the novichok family.

I was mistaken there is no technical analysis that is classified but avaliable to signatory countries.

A summary was publicly released

https://www.opcw.org/fileadmin/OPCW/S_series/2018/en/s-1612-2018_e_.pdf

I also came across this from May which states

THE HAGUE, Netherlands — 4 May 2018 — In response to questions from the media, the OPCW Spokesperson stated that the OPCW would not be able to estimate or determine the amount of the nerve agent that was used in Salisbury on 4 March 2018. The quantity should probably be characterised in milligrams. However, the analysis of samples collected by the OPCW Technical Assistance Visit team concluded that the chemical substance found was of high purity, persistent and resistant to weather conditions.

https://www.opcw.org/news/article/opcw-spokespersons-statement-on-amount-of-nerve-agent-used-in-salisbury/

That final point in bold is interesting after the 2nd incident.

I was mistaken there is no full technical analysis, that remains classified

Under what possible pretense? How could revealing the methodology for finding the purported "Smoking Gun" allegedly identifying Novichok (as opposed to OTHER organophosphates) and allegedly implicating Russia as THE culprit possibly be considered a "secret" that must be closely guarded?

Could it be because the "classified" information does NOT supply the evidence that it claims to supply?

How is Novichok differentiated from OTHER organophosphate chemicals when biological samples are taken?

(Shhh! it's a secret!)

It could be that or it could be classified because that is the regular operation of the OPCW. Russia got a copy too. Then lied and said it was a different agent, bz, which was actually part of a control sample.

Russia got a copy too.

That's deliberate disinfo.

Then lied and said it was a different agent, bz, which was actually part of a control sample.

More lies. The BZ analysis came from an accredited lab in Spiez (Switzerland), not Russia.

The fact remains that the Skripals' symptoms and their "miraculous" recovery fit BZ poisoning far more closely than Novichok.

It is not disinformation. Russia lied about the control sample and implied the agent was bz

at a meeting of the OPCW executive in The Hague, the Russian claim was refuted by OPCW officials, who said explained that BZ had been used in the control sample, not the sample itself. It is also a breach of OPCW procedures to identify a laboratory involved in a test.

The UK said Russia had been caught out in an attempt to mislead the international community, adding the OPCW report showed the world was facing “a clear case of a new family of toxic chemicals intended to kill”.

https://wotl.uk/russia-condemned-over-false-bz-claims/

The fact remains they weren't poisoned with bz and Russia spread that lie as disinformation as part of the firehose of falsehoods they deploy every single day.

Why are you so insecure about someone telling you you're wrong that you had to ban them? Is modding this sub the only essence of power and control you have in your life so you like to exploit it at any possible opportunity?

Because no standard test exists for Novichoks, defence officials may have taken fluid from the Skripals’ spinal cords [...]

This is complete speculation from an Australian scientist

Good catch.

So your argument is, if it's being reported by the news it must be propaganda?

Two British citizens were poisoned by Russia and you expect what? That the MSM is just going to ignore that?

If CNN reported a hurricane moving towards you would you just ignore it?

How do you know it was Russia.

Because every credible expert agrees that it was them. They are the only ones with a motive to have poisoned their former spies. Because they have a history of doing these kinds of attacks, and most outcomes from this directly benefit them.

We should always be skeptical of the official story, but we should also be aware that there are people who benefit from discrediting the official story. We know for a fact that Russian propaganda targets conspiracy theory discussion boards like this one. Their goal is to convince people that nothing is true and everything is possible

really every credible expert? name three that don't work for the british government.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-russia-chemicalweapons/ex-russian-spy-poisoned-with-nerve-agent-watchdog-confirms-idUSKBN1HJ1LZ

The OPCW did not explicitly name Novichok in its published summary, say where the poison may have come from or assign blame for the attack.

So what do you think happened?

as a knee jerk assesment i would say some one poisoned him to frame russia.

there was no reason for russia to try and kill him, if they wanted to they had him in their own fucking prison they could have done it long ago. hes got no new info to share and had been traded for people who did.

there are the rumors seirgei was actually talking to putin and trying to be allowed to return to russia and he was concerned about the british inteligence and his safety.

IF they wanted to kill him, why would they use a substance that would immediately make them a prime suspect? why not Vx or sarin? why not just hit him with a car or shoot him in the head.

now assuming they had a reason, and wanted to use novichok to make a point, why use it so fucking ineffectively that an incredibly lethal substance with a leathal dose measured in mirco grams would you not use enough to actually kill a weakened old man or a young woman?

the idea that this was a Russian assassination requires such a ridiculous amount of suspension of belief its imho in the realm of flat earth.

Why does anyone have to frame Russia though? They invaded Crimea, they've shot down passenger planes, they're undermining elections and democracies all over the world. If someone wanted to stir up a war with Russia they could easily point to these attrocities. Why would they have to make up a nerve agent attack.

It's your position that's most like being a flat earther. You're the one ignoring all the experts to come up with a theory that lacks any kind of a motive.

They invaded Crimea

They saved the people of Crimea, they then voted to become part of Russia once again.

The majority of them are Russians, it is western propaganda that Russia "invaded" Crimea

no experts have attributed it to russia, in fact all of the experts have avoided doing exactly that.

if you have been paying attention at all trying to start a war with russia is exactly what they have been trying to do for the last 10 fucking years.

crimea and mh17 didn't get the public on board, neither did the supposed chemical attacks or war in syria, they are getting desperate and this sloppy shit show fits with that.

everyone seems to forget Putin has been speaking up against the NWO for the past 15 or so years and has refused to bend the knee to them.

honestly its striking how so many people here have forgotten that or ignored it since the lead up to trumps election.... its almost like people are trying to reframe the whole narrative to make putin the bad guy and the deepstate our friends who are the only ones who can save us from him...

Ah, the apologists are here

Hysterical speculation abounds.

we still dont know how they interfered in the us election, or even if they did (unless you can provide explanation).

i agree they’ve otherwise been largely bad actors, though their participation in the syrian war seems to be a net good for the middle east (even if it benefits russia’s interest first).

Say the same thing about your good old US of A!!! They have done worse!

Have we done bad things? Absolutely

Are we as bad as Russia and the USSR? No one with any sense would think that

Yeh you have!! Look at the mess you have left in the wake of recent years..

I agree that Israel and the CIA would be big suspects here if this was a framing, but I would replace ISIS with the U.K. Or EU. I don't really see how ISIS would benefit much from this, nor how this really falls in line with their M.O. They don't do much on an international level that isn't something they can quickly claim and they usually go for flashy and inexpensive rather than a more subtle attack like this.

Meanwhile Europe, and argualby the U.K. Have very clear reason to make Russia look bad. Russia clearly wants to dismantle that alliance and weaken their incluence on the world.

personally my bets are on Israel/isis and CIA. no one else benefits from a UK vs russia scenario as much.

this fits mossads MO quite nicely, i think they are the ones steering/pulling the ISIS strings and the CIA are their pets.

they have motive, means, and opportunity to pull something like this off.

what does isis gain? cia sure, mi6 sure, but isis?

basically russia is kicking their ass, having the UK/US step in because russia is bad works in their favour the goal here would be to spin the attack as a direct attack on the uk from russia.

if the UK civilians are angry about an attack at home they will be more willing to support a UK intervention in syria.

basically russia is kicking their ass, having the UK/US step in because russia is bad works in their favour the goal here would be to spin the attack as a direct attack on the uk from russia.

if the UK civilians are angry about an attack at home they will be more willing to support a UK intervention in syria.

Different chemicals have different properties. Check out google regarding nerve agents. Some stick around for a while, some dissipate quickly, some become aerosol quickly and some don’t.

i have researched novichok, and if you still buy this balogne clearly you have not.

if they were intentionally expose to novichok they would have died within minutes as their lungs would have stopped functioning and their hearts seized.

now iirc they had been passed out in a park for an hour or so?

if novichok was actually used it has to be the least effective nerve agent in the history of nerve agents, or the guy who planted it had no fucking clue what he was doing.

given how easy it is to produce novichok and how badly its use was fumbled i would highly suspect terrorists, especially ISIS, as turning the british against russia would put pressure on the brits to act harshly toward the russians in syria.

Just wanna preface I’m not trying to come off like a jerk. I just have a few issues regarding your statement.

The term novichok is used for a number of nerve agents produced by usssr and now Russia. If you truly did the research you’d know that they all have some similar properties as well as some differences.

Remember when Kim’s cousin or stepbrother was killed with vx. Remember how they needed both women. That’s because it’s a binary agent. Meaning you need to combine 2 relatively harmless chemicals to create these nerve agents. The LD50 for these compounds vary in a number of ways. Some are more effective through inhalation while others are more effective through contact with the skin. So in order to pull this off you need the right mix, with the right chemicals in which you want it to be delivered. Other factors play a role in the effectiveness as well such as climate conditions, proximity to the agents, etc. furthermore there have been numerous cases of scientists working with these agents who have been exposed to them and survived although it fucked them up for life. As for nerve agents they don’t stop the lungs from functioning. They block the chemicals in the brain to relax the muscles. So it’s the diaphragm that stops functioning causing asphyxiation. Cardiac arrest can also occur as you said. As to your comment about the guy not having a clue, if you look at the 2 most recent incidents regarding the polonium and the first novichok poisoning it was very obvious the people running the op were amateurs. The left their finger prints everything (finger prints as a figure of speech)

Regarding Isis being capable of making it I guess is possible but your comment about it being easy to make is untrue. This isn’t like cooking up meth. All those compounds are pretty complex and need specific precautions. But if they are they would need help and resources from Russia as they’re the only ones producing these novel nerve agents. To me this seems highly unlikely and doesn’t fit their M.O.

With regards to the people who were “contaminated”. There have been some conflicting reports so I’m gonna wait till more evidence turns up before I come to a 100% conclusion. But if they were poisoned by a nerve agent, weather it was from earlier contamination or if they were targeted, the most likely explanation would be Russian activity.

The term novichok is used for a number of nerve agents produced by usssr and now Russia.

And Britain and USA and a load of other countries

Ok so I’ll be as clear as I can. The US, the UK and the rest of the world signed a treaty that prevents countries from buying precursors to make nerve agents. It’s very strict and international observers make sure that all countries are following the guidelines. The US and its allies still have stockpiles of VX and other assorted chem/bio weapons. These are stored and scheduled to be destroyed.

The term novichok is a Russian word used to describe novel nerve agents that can use chemicals not on the banned list. Currently Russia has a number of novichok agents. You know how we know? Russian scientists told the world a while ago. I don’t mean to be crass but for someone who claims they did all the research into novichok, I think that research wasn’t all that rigorous.

So let’s say someone wants to make a nerve agent, let’s say Isis. 1. They can get it on the black market which is a lot harder than making a phone call. 2. They can purchase the chemicals to make the nerve agent. All of these precursor are strictly regulated world wide so it would be extremely difficult to purchase them on the open market and like I said this isn’t cooking up meth. You can’t just whip up some VX in your kitchen. And 3. What the fuck am I blatantly lying about? It looks to me I laid out some decent discussion points while you laid out nothing but ad hominems and other logic fallacies.

Add to the conversation man. It’s a lot more fun and interesting.

the problem is the whole thing makes zero sense, it took both a state sponsored Lab to create, and yet the actual use looks like an amateur trying to get caught.

its the repetitive theme weve been seeing with all this fake news, the culprit is a genious, and a buffoon all at the same time.

the buffoon could not make it themselves, and anyone that could make it would not use a buffoon to deliver it. it cant be both at the same time.

Plausible deniability. Your not gonna send your best agents. If they get caught, game over. If you use lower level people like those polonium schmucks it’s a lot easier to control the narrative in their end. Also take into consideration how bold russia has become in the last decade or so. It seems like they stopped giving a fuck because there were never any consequences for any of the shit they pulled. They’re relishing this. Watch the west run around like a chicken w/o a head while they sit back and watch the west crumble.

the west is crumbling but imho its entirely our own fault. the fact were buying this bullshit is just a sign of how bad it has gotten already.

russia didnt make our schools shit and our media retarded, we did.

I agree we’ve come way to complacent. But it’s certainly not bullshit. This has been Russia’s M.O. for years.

oh im well aware of russia and its poking. the problem i see is that this doesnt fit that MO, russia used to vlad will poke but he is precise when he does. this imho is far too sloppy (maybe hes suddenly gotten brain cancer who knows)

Vlad is consistent, and frankly if you ignore these rather suspect (imo frame jobs), he has otherwise maintained his traditional actions. i mean the US has been trying to start shit with russia for a long time with little to no retaliation for decades so i guess its possible hes all of a sudden ready for a fight (imo that is a lot more terrifying if its true because it means hes got an "i win" button ready)

from the big scale geopolitical side of things the US is about to see a serious decline in influence/power. the new silk road project and the developing beast that is china are about to make ocean control a lot less important and quite possibly shifting the need for trans oceanic trade in general if the land route gets the investment it needs.

russia sees this and is less and less concerned with the US and its threats when it has already solidified a great relationship with china. (in some sense it looks like russia is set to become chinas canada, its in a similar position with raw natural resources)

given that reality there really isnt a reason to pick a fight with the US or assassinate old spies in the UK when they are about to head in to a golden age for their empire.

on the flip side the old king of the hill has every reason and desire to try and meddle with russia/china to maintain their own position.

Because every credible expert agrees that it was them.

Not true at all. Can you name these "credible experts" who aren't in some way employed by the UK government or MoD?

Suggest you read this for a more balanced view of the whole event.

https://medium.com/insurge-intelligence/former-opcw-official-no-conclusive-proof-of-russian-complicity-in-salisbury-attack-1ae3749ba38e

On top of this, why on earth would Russia poison an ex spy they literally handed over as part of an exchange years ago? Why would they use such an old and highly ineffective nerve agent? Have you seen what real nerve agents do to people? The Skripals have made a full recovery! It's laughable. Now we're supposed to believe that some heroin addict picked up a used needle to shoot up and that needle contained the nerve agent?! Oh my god, is this a joke or do people believe this?! Heroin addicts can get needles from pretty much every pharmacy. Believe me, I have had many friends who were addicted to H and they always got clean needles and if they re-used, it was their own needles, not some shit from the trash on the street.

It all seems too easy for the UK gov to point the finger at Russia to benefit their own narrative and theatre. Theresa May is using this as a distraction. Keep the public in fear, point the finger at Russia, don't question the government, don't examine or criticise domestic issues. We need WAR. Red Scare 2.0

Dude they’ve been doing this literally since the ussr formed and continue to under the Russian federation. Occam’s razor. They’ve killed a shitload of journalists, people from opposition parties, blew a fucking civilian plane out of the sky, invaded a sovereign nation, bombed their own people as a premises to start a war and consolidate power, they treat their citizens like dog shit, the country is run like the mafia, etc. no red scare. It’s business as usual fir those fucks

US, UK and Israel do the same. Because they control the MSM everything is fine!

Don't you think there's easier ways for the UK to distract the public? They not only have to poison their own citizens but then they have to convince the world and independent experts that a nerve gas happened.

Russia has a history of doing these kinds of attacks, they have the means to carry out this attack, and they have all the motive. It takes an excessive amount of mental gymnastics to not even be suspicious of them, and even more to blame it on the UK.

I can't pretend to know who you think is a credible expert. But when asked by a reporter how they were able to find out that Russia was the source Boris Johnson said:

People from, from Porton Down. The uh laboratory, they do (have the samples). They were absolutely categorical - I asked the guy myself, I said: "Are you sure?" and he said "there's no doubt" so um. . . we have very little alternative but to take the action we have taken.

Relevant snippet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcKqfsZojpc
Full interview: http://www.dw.com/en/boris-johnson-russias-position-in-skripal-case-is-increasingly-bizarre/av-43044378

Only 1 bit of evidence was ever cited and Porton Down was it.

But then weeks later Porton Down announced: "We don't have that evidence"

I can't pretend to know who you think is a credible expert. But when asked by a reporter how they were able to find out that Russia was the source Boris Johnson said:

People from, from Porton Down. The uh laboratory, they do (have the samples). They were absolutely categorical - I asked the guy myself, I said: "Are you sure?" and he said "there's no doubt" so um. . . we have very little alternative but to take the action we have taken.

Relevant snippet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcKqfsZojpc
Full interview: http://www.dw.com/en/boris-johnson-russias-position-in-skripal-case-is-increasingly-bizarre/av-43044378

Only 1 bit of evidence was ever cited and Porton Down was it.

But then weeks later Porton Down announced: "We don't have that evidence"

Boris Johnson was apparently misremembering his conversation or misrepresenting it in that interview in order to convince the public that there were experts backing the government's accusations. But you were misinformed by a lying politician and a completely uncritical press. Unless there are other experts that investigated? Which you could cite?

No, I don't think Boris Johnson is a credible source.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/04/boris-johnson-russia-spy-evidence/557216/

Good.

So who is?

These guys seem pretty good

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-russia-chemicalweapons/ex-russian-spy-poisoned-with-nerve-agent-watchdog-confirms-idUSKBN1HJ1LZ

...

I don't think those watchdog groups are confirming what you think they're confirming.

They're just saying it was indeed Novichok agent.

They're just saying it was indeed Novichok agent

Which simply can not be true anyway.

Which can only be made by a state level actor. Now which state level actor would have motive to use it?

So to be clear, the conversation has shifted from "all reliable experts agree it was Russia" to "could have been Russia because of motive".

Okay. Let's talk motive.

It really makes no sense for Russia to do this:

Sergei was discovered to be a spy and arrested in 2004 and convicted of espionage and high treason. relevant article

Seems to me, that would have been a decent time to kill him without pissing off any other countries.

He was imprisoned in Russia until 2010 when he was released as part of a prisoner exchange. relevant article

They had him in captivity for 6 years, plenty of time to kill him however publicly or secretly they'd like. He's been doing nothing particularly interesting for 7 years and suddenly he's poisoned.

I don't know what Russia has to gain by poisoning a 66 year old ex-double-agent 14 years after they originally arrested him. Seems like they had loads of opportunities to secretly disappear him without causing an international incident.

So what motive are you referring too?

Aaaaaand crickets. His own article disagreed with him. And now he'd silent.

Can it really only be made by state level actors? That contradicts what I read from the defected scientist who literally wrote a book on it. It was developed because you just needed a commercial grade lab to make the two main agents which makes sense because the whole point of developing it was to make something that couldn't be easily tracked and could be made by mixing two innocuous chemical compounds to get by chemical weapon treaties.

Maybe he was mistaken though.

That's an appeal to authority. And if those authorities you are appealing to have been compromised or are lying for some reason, you've just been manipulated.

I guess you don't trust doctors and scientists or any other people that know anything because that would be an appeal to authority. Instead you just cherry pick what facts you want to believe in creating your own narrative that reinforces your own preconceived notions.

I’m far more likely to trust doctors and scientists (I am one) than people who are making statements that have extreme political implications. That seems like common sense to me. My conclusion is that I don’t know who is responsible. It could have been Russia, it could have been staged by Western intelligence agencies, Or it could have been a bad batch of heroin or something like that. I think it would be a bit silly and naïve to jump to conclusions, no offense to you.

freonpurple

Why are you mad though? Can’t handle someone disagreeing with you?

Your account is almost a year old, but in this time you've only made 4 comments, all on this thread, all defending Russia.

But sure I'm the "user"

There is absolutely no proof that Russia was involved in the original "poisonings". There are reasonable grounds for questioning the entire story - from the ever mutating lethality of the nerve agent, to the various ridiculous methods of administration. Also there is some doubt as to the actual veracity of the sample given to the international body.

poisoned by Russia

Source this claim.......

So your argument is, if it's being reported by the news it must be propaganda?

No, that is not my argument.

As somewhat of a counter point "alternative news" sites are also covering the incident at length in rabid defense of Russia when they do not know who is responsible.

Globalresearch.ca CHECK

moonofalabama.com CHECK

Zerohedge CHECK

Russia-Insider CHECK

The truth seeker.co.uk CHECK

I don't think the BBC are tweeting at people about it though.

https://mobile.twitter.com/MoonofA/status/1014844461178867713

You're right though, lots of propoganda out there about this.

You're right though, lots of propoganda out there about this.

You're not wrong. Except it's spelled "propaganda".

Major news outlets covering a major breaking story, who would have thought.

Maybe you should think about WHY these outlets consider it a "major news story" at all?

...because it is a major new story.

Two British nationals were poisoned and the British government is once again accusing Russia. Why wouldn't they cover it?

i think what was more amazing was how they instantly detected novichok when skripal got poisoned and had everything on hand ready to deal with the poisoning of this exotic nowhere used poison that apparently only russia has LUL and its so deadly that they were both fine with no damages whatsoever sometime later.. k cool.

My guess is that this is to get chemical agents into the news cycle to start blaming Russia ahead of time before the next chemical weapons false flag attack in Syria this month.

Then with Russia already under pressure from this poisoning, they'll try and hold Russia accountable for the Syrian "attack" and get them to cease all military support for Assad.

Too many glowing reports of a particularly good world cup.

That is what all the English fans are saying, the British government have well overplayed their hand this time.

My guess is that this is to get chemical agents into the news cycle to start blaming Russia ahead of time before the next chemical weapons false flag attack in Syria this month.

Possibly relevant -- RT -- 6/28/18

White Helmets are helping Syrian militants prepare ‘false flag’ chemical attack – Idlib residents

yup, this has been a delightfully entertaining (and extremely well-timed!) world cup.

I saw this on the news ticker. Thought it was a rerun

If your country was under attack via chemical warfare by another state publicising the details before you know definitively what caused the incident could incite panic and fear in the community, particularly given the Skripal incident.

Waiting to determine the agent used while prohibiting access to the location would be in the public interest.

anyone know anything about the 'victims'? they could also be mis-handlers.

Seems like the perfect couple to sacrifice to push a political agenda or maybe I am too cynical

offish-topic, but nearly every human is a recreational drug user, especially when including legal-highs like alcohol. am guessing they're accusing the couple of being addicts/abusers, more than plain old users. or maybe just pedantic semantics.

Russians being poisoned didn’t create enough sympathy, poison brits and maybe people will care more.

Unemployed, Homeless, drug using brits though...

Maybe not the most likely to garner sympathy.

Not according to this guy. Nice house. Lots of friends. Sociable Facebook pages.

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/07/the-amesbury-mystery/

The Last Skripal Poisoning was a Hoax. They were both in on it from the go get.

Three days before the poisoning, a new power was controversially passed at the OPCW giving them the power to assign blame.

This is not another coincidence.

I hope the people at OPCW realize how devastating war can be

this has come just a few days after the US strong armed the OPCW to remove Russia's veto power. might of happened on the day actually.

hmm lets see leap to the assumption it was novichok before the experts have even done the tests? yeah sounds about as ridiculous as last time.

That's not true though it took 5 days in this case to determine it was novichok.

Seems like they desperately needed some new propaganda item against Russia. It's just so damn stupid of them to have no hint of any actual evidence. There was nothing in the Skripal case, and so many open questions, and in this case it won't be any better.

This is all subterfuge. Too many anti-Russian stories from the last day or two suggests to me it's no coincidence and this is more likely a stage-managed intelligence black op. My news feed yesterday, before this poisoning became big news, was chock-full of the Anti-Russian narrative organised by the controlled mainstream media. It's very clear what's going on, even if they are just taking advantage of an 'accidental' poisoning to push this narrative, I'm just not sure where it will all lead. Will something else happen before the end of the World Cup in mid-July? Are they psychologically preparing the public for a false flag chemical attack, now that the precedent has been set of two random members of the public being poisoned and not just Russian state spies? I don't believe Novichok is the culprit because you should be dead within ten minutes of contact without an antidote, perhaps it's another chemical weapon let loose by British intelligence agents from Porton Down?

This operation was given the royal seal when Prince Charles and Camilla visited the site on June 22nd, Salisbury is very near to the ancient solar worshipping site of Stonehenge, June 22nd was the day after the Summer Solstice so perhaps there is a ritual element to this as well. The Skripals were allegedly poisoned on March 4th, exactly four months later July 4th as the World Cup in Russia is in full swing, we have this poisoning apparently caused by haphazardly dumped leftover Novichok from the comically bad bungling "Russian assassins". I don't buy that, I think this is a deep deep state operation from the top, executed by their lackeys in British intelligence and the media to perpetuate Russia narrative. It more likely came from Porton Down up the road, British intelligence will have spies working there with the means to smuggle out poisons.

must just be a disgruntled Porton down employee...or a chemical waste removal employee with sticky fingers....or a serial poisoner. It's weird both were couples....that both touch the same thing. A dog? A fifty pound note on the floor?

It's up in the air. I don't think FSB assassins directed by Putin with a specific target in mind (Skripal) would be so unprofessional to just leave a syringe of Novichok lying around. That does not fit with the establishment's narrative of wanting to "send a message to traitors" as accidentally killing random members of the public is clearly not in Putin's interests. This to me suggests perhaps it was either an anti-Putin Russian group who are not as experienced in assassination and handling chemical weapons (hence the lack of effectiveness on the Skripals) and wanted to frame Putin, or British intelligence agents specifically picked two easy targets in a couple of drug addicts. One is already dead and the other may not make it, this suggests they have come into more invasive contact with the poison than the Skripals who made remarkable recoveries. Novichok cannot survive for months on end exposed to the elements on a fifty pound note or something like that. It had to be contained in something like a container or syringe; do heroin addicts make a habit of picking up any old syringe from the street with unknown substances in and going, "Oh YEAH! Let's inject that shit right now! Or maybe we could just empty it and fill it with our own shit, I'm sure it'll be fine." Are they that stupid? Maybe. Or maybe a British spy who is part of the operation in Salisbury and was instructed to escalate the ongoing operation by finding some poor saps to poison, they find the two drug addicts passed out in a park and just shove a needle filled with the stuff in their arm or whatever. Who knows, I'm not buying the narrative the establishment and its lackeys in the media are forcing down our throats though.

yep i concur with your thinking....but i'm also thinking the chemical didn't need to last, as it might have been two separate attacks by the same actor. the fact it is two couples that have been attacked smacks to me of someone with a grudge/hatred. they might have not even known the others were russian. the fact two chemical research/weapon facilities are so near to both incidents is surely the biggest clue of all. we shall see.

I see what you mean, I suppose it's possible it's just one random psycho from Porton Down staging two separate attacks on couples who irked him somehow. I do think the coincidence is too great that an ex-Russian spy was targeted for it to have not been some kind of intelligence tradecraft, especially with how it aligns with the Russian boogieman narrative of recent years. Maybe it's a mixture of both, the bad actor from Porton Down may not be aware of why he's doing it, some kind of MKULTRA going on?

We shall see for sure, the lack of a strong response from British government on two of their people being poisoned tells me there is more to come with this.

Can't decide whether to go down to the Trump protest in London on Friday to watch the drones march against the "Russian puppet"... should be interesting, maybe there'll be some fuckery.

I think they were targeted via the door handle to the apartment. She didn't fall ill until shortly after arrival to the apartment, during a walk. He didn't fall ill until shortly after returning to the apartment several hours after she was hospitalized. Daily Mail says both victims were found to have Novichok only on one hand. Intentional targeting also explains why he didn't get sick for so many hours after she did and refutes the theory they both got into a container holding the poison.

I'm going to update this comment all day with both Official links describing the event and if anyone wants to try and deconstruct anything have at it and I'll help. I'm workin' all day today but am off the next 3 and can dedicate some more time than I'd like to admit to this.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44719639

I'm no expert on poisoning people, but what good is this Novichok agent? I'm unimpressed.

If it's supposed to be covert, it sucks: apparently it's immediately detectable to western governments without even requiring a full investigation.

If it's supposed to be deadly, it sucks: apparently five people were effected and none have died.

Why use this crap instead of something that actually works and doesn't immediately make everyone point fingers at you?

Its not supposed to be covert. If the motive is to send a message to traitors, then you want it to be obvious that you were behind it.

Its not supposed to be covert.

Is it also not supposed to be effective? Because so far, it hasn't been.

If this was residual novichok from Skripal assassination attempt, it has remained active enough to render people unconscious several months after being deployed.

That certainly sounds like a highly potent and very effective nerve agent.

The word "If" in your comment is perhaps the most important.

Quoting the BBC:

Chemical weapons expert Richard Guthrie said it was possible that the couple came across the Novichok which poisoned the Skripals after it had been disposed of "in a haphazard way".

However, Vil Mirzayanov, the Russian scientist who first exposed the Novichok programme, cast doubt on the theory, saying Novichok would have decomposed in the four months since the Skripal attack.

He told the BBC this must have been a separate incident because Novichok was unstable, especially in damp conditions.

So yes, it would seem that "If" is definitely the operative word here.

Quite.

Note the BBC quotes the police as saying

So far no contaminated items have been found and the police say they have no idea what the nerve agent was contained in.

So, perhaps, the couple found an odd looking container and exposed themselves to its contents. Perhaps the agent wasn't exposed the whole time.

Perhaps, perhaps, perhaaaaps...The wonderful Wizard of If!

Welcome to /r/conspiracy

couple found an odd looking container and exposed themselves to its contents

Typical day at park for adults...

They're junkies. News reports now suggesting they were picking up cigarette ends.

Oh that explains a lot. They've cordoned off tonnes of the areas they visited before they got sick.

Police also said today they can't guarantee public safety. They basically can't know where all the contamination is at this point, only educated guess.

Quite.

Note the BBC quotes the police as saying

So far no contaminated items have been found and the police say they have no idea what the nerve agent was contained in.

So, perhaps, the couple found an odd looking container and exposed themselves to its contents. Perhaps the agent wasn't exposed the whole time.

...wouldn't that container be considered a contaminated object?

Novichock is an entire class of poisons with varying LD50 etc. How can you make these claims without knowing which specific compound it was?

I don't need to know which compound it was to know it affected two couples months apart.

I don't know for certain if this is residual exposed agent or agent that was left in a container or if this was a separate incident altogether which seems quite unlikely.

How do you know it was the same compound?

It was confirmed by Porton Down.

https://news.sky.com/video/porton-down-confirmed-novichok-exposure-11426534

Ah yes the government said it so it must be true.

The CIA camel agents and communist Chinese are using similar poisons now i guess...OH, i should mention they are actually street thugs somehow got their hands on these evil stuffs....just to mess up people who dont agree with them

I ll tell you why. Ive already posted this stuff before. 'Novichok' is 'a new one' in Russian. It would be stupid of the Russian military to name their new secret weapon 'a new one'. Quite a give away, isnt it? But you say it in English, it sounds similar to 'choke' especially if you stressed this cyllable. That immediately makes an English speaker associate the name with a poison gas. Psychological warfare.

I suspect that Mirzayanov is the only source that designates that angent as novichok. Despite being regarded as a developer of this agent, from what I know, he wasnt even part of that program which ended in 1988. May be novichok is a casual name or a jargon term.

Being Russian, I can tell that here in Russia the Skripals case is viewed differently. Given that Scripal did spend a few years in Russian prison, there was no point killing him in Britain as a traitor. If it was done in order to send a message to would be Russian defectors (very far fetched), that would was a wrong time (risk of world cup boycott and new sanctions) and a wrong place. And the properties of novichok are not quite certain. I heard some say (prob Mirzoyanov himself) that the reason Skripals survived was damp weather that is novichok degrades in himidity fast. Others claim that novichok is very long lasting.

If there is a strong chance that novichok isnt detected in bodies, the message with a dead Russian spy is still clear with all fingers pointed at Russia and the British intelligence and the police working doing their best to identify the course of death. Worth the risk? I doubt it.

The second incident is beyond comprehension.

I see all these poisoning as filled with horror, medieaval mystisism and supernatural. Like in the Name of the Rose.

Wasnt the general feeling from conspiracy types that the 'novichok' thing was bull shit and it was something else?

If thats true then surely this latest thing is bullshit by default.

Person you responded to provided sources for his claims.

Do you have anything else than wild speculation on your part? Like anything at all why I should take you seriously?

Is the semantics of an article enough proof for you to indicate a conspiracy?

Or if it wasn’t even Novichock at all, which seems somewhat likely to me.

Sure.

Woman died

It was effective in sending the message. Whether the victims died or were just critically ill probably doesn't matter too much, it still shows potential traitors that they're unsafe.

It was effective in sending the message.

It seems to me that the most effective "message" that came from the fiasco is that "Russians are bad" -- followed by the expulsion of diplomats, sanctions, etc.

Is that what Russia was hoping to accomplish?

Any spy or former spy the world over knows they can, and will, be targeted if they cooperate with the West.

They didn't already know that? Why are spy agencies recruiting ignorant credulous fools?

I think when you're employed by these 3 letter intelligence agencies, the stakes get raised pretty high. I think Russia wants to remind their operatives that if they're being squeezed by the West, being put in a "between a rock and a hard place" situation, Russia has no qualms about being the worse of the two options. I think it's easy to forget just how fucked up it is that Russia is willing to target people on UK soil. It's a line no one wanted to cross during the cold war because of the implications and the possible escalation.

The message I'm getting is that Russia can do whatever the hell they want inside the boarders of any Western democratic country and face absolutely zero consequences.

The diplomatic expulsions of Russians by multiple countries show otherwise. If Russian agents are behind these attacks the expulsions seem an appropriate response. But until we know more about this new couple or how and where they were poisoned these two cases hardly prove the Russia can do whatever they want. As a casual observer looking in on these poisoning cases it reminds me of the Anthrax scare of 2001. When anthrax was sent to various US media members and Senators in sept 2001 it was initially thought to have been terrorism related - that is Al Qaeda or Iraq. It wasn't until years later that we found out it was likely an insider who commited the poisoning. It could very well be a similar situation today.

I know that at least in the US, expelling Russian diplomats was pretty toothless, as they were replaced by new ones.

http://www.businessinsider.com/theres-a-huge-caveat-in-the-us-expulsion-of-60-russian-diplomats-2018-3

Agreed. But this may simply show that no one is certain of the culprit though leaders like Trump or May have to act or be seen as weak. Considering there has been no evidence provided it was in fact Russian actors there is little that really can be done beyond souring diplomatic relations and tough talk. It's not much but it's not nothing and considering all we are going off of is a hunch that it is Russia behind the poisoning Im not sure what else should be done. By the way I'm not saying Russia is completely innocent but there should be some evidence provided before assigning guilt and taking action. Similarly Iraq could have been behind the Anthrax attacks in 2001 but IMO evidence should be given before further actions are taken.

Is it also supposed to be effective?

Fixed.

It is not immediately detectable, it took 5 days to determine it was novichok. It took 6 days to confirm it was novichok in the Skripal case.

It is highly toxic which is why this couple stumbling over the site where it was prepared several months later were still rendered unconscious by the nerve agent.

And to add on to that, one has since died

They aren't dead but they will never be the same again. They will have to depend on other people the rest if their lives. They're better off dead imho.

That's a gross exaggeration.
I really don't think Yulia is better off dead... https://youtu.be/fCGKUgaGqpg

To be clear, I'm not trying to discredit your point at all. However, you could not have chosen a worse source for this incident.

I just searched for video of 'Yulia Skirpal Interview' If western media had reported on her recovery more, maybe their videos would have been higher in the search results.

Reuters, NPR, The Guardian, Independent, and BBC all did similar pieces on her recovery, reported the same date that RT did. In fact, the interview was with a journalist from Reuters. I'd say they covered it pretty well.

Okay.

Nevertheless, when I searched YouTube for "Yulia Skirpal Interview" RT is the top two results. It's the same interview no matter who's logo is in the bottom corner. Feel free to link to another version if you like.

I don't control the SEO.

Rothschild’s Reuters? That’s a superior source?

I find it's always useful to learn what MSM says isn't true.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/novichock-poisoning-amesbury-wiltshire-conspiracy-theories-salisbury-truth-facts-russia-a8432541.html

So from this, we learn that

an unrelated couple miles away with no connections to the original incident had exactly the same symptoms, probably because they visited the same area where the original agent was "used" but where that are was deemed "safe" link

This is ripe for conspiracy theory.

No connections. They just happened upon the area? They just happened to find the same container? With no evidence of visiting the original contaminated site? With no known political motivations against them or from them?

According to Al Jazeera, Russians believe that the novichick agent was a setup by the West to blame Russia link

There are some suggestions that this was actually polonium, which has very different implications. link

I think it's a knock off, not Russian made. It acts like novichok with all the symptoms but probably not the real deal. I still don't see the motive and Russian secret services would probably get the job done if they wanted to.

Same opinion here, I am unconvinced.

It seems to be the best at staying active in the environment at least. It's stable for month in any weather, unlike VX and all the others ... although all experts said before it's not.

But the junkies probably just found it in a trash can, which don't get emptied for month in the UK, I presume?

I cant belive in the munber of people that can see that here

Someone just died from it

and none have died.

Yikes

5 days ago

I'm not a prophet.

Oh, I know -- I just wonder if you'll amend your original comment now that someone has

No. I don't edit my old posts.

I'm not a sneak who goes back and edits my past to look like I was a right in advance, nor is my comment history a wiki meant to be constantly updated with new information.

At the time I wrote that, the alleged nerve agent was 0 for 5 in killing the effected victims. And questioning it's efficacy was a perfectly reasonable response.

Now it's 1 for 5, so still pretty shit as far as assassination tools go, but I won't continue to claim it never killed anyone.

Joining Some Dots on the Skripal Case

Essential reading.

Part 1 – An Official Story That Doesn’t Hold Water

Part 2 – Four “Invisible” Clues

Part 3 - The Agitated Mr Skripal

Part 4 – The Dodgy Dossier

Part 5 – An Educated Guess

Part 6 – Tying up the Loose Ends

If you want all of the above in PDF form use the below link

Joining Some Dots on the Skripal Case

I have been following this case for a while now, it is all transparent nonsense and if you read British websites that are reporting on the issue and allow comments, none of the British people are believing any of this propaganda.

An interesting read, though some of it is inaccurate and speculative. Still, plenty of questions brought up one needs to think about.

Also I'm not sure why but the link to part 6 doesn't appear to work, it goes to a dead page. The pdf link works fine so no big deal, just thought you might want to know.

Huh, I couldn't get it to work on my phone earlier. No matter.

A lot of speculation in there, but it already makes more sense than the narrative May was pushing.

Just a side-remark, you should update it when new evidence becomes public.

I have so many questions...

By late that evening, Scotland Yard said Novichok was to blame following analysis at the defence research facility at Porton Down, Wiltshire.

Okay, fair. . .

So far no contaminated items have been found and the police say they have no idea what the nerve agent was contained in.

Scratch that. What? Then what did Porton Down analyze? Can it be found in a blood test? Did they take tissue samples?

What the hell is this shitty poison that never kills anyone and can be found in a body without even reaching lethal levels?

Also “Novichok” isn’t a nerve agent. It’s a class of poisons. IIRC it means “new generation” it’s like saying “Scotland Yard says Bullets was responsible for the shooting”

what did Porton Down analyze? Did they take tissue samples?

That's a reasonable assumption.

I guess. But then they'll say "yeah we took tissue samples."

"The police didn't find a container, so how could they have assessed the poison? They would have had to have taken tissue samples!" Well yeah either they did take tissue samples or they will tell you they did. I just don't get the point of this particular "argument".

If the concentration wasn’t even high enough to kill them, then I highly doubt they were able to detect it. Smells like bullshit to me.

Like the dead cat too, of whom we have no tissue sample ?

This is such bullshit.

First off: Novichok - Новичо́к, "newcomer"/ "newbie" it's a nickname for a potentially mythical form of nerve agent that we don't even know exists.

As recently as 2016 Dr Robin Black, Head of the Detection Laboratory at the UK’s only chemical weapons facility at Porton Down, a former colleague of Dr David Kelly, published in an extremely prestigious scientific journal that the evidence for the existence of Novichoks was scant and their composition unknown.

In recent years, there has been much speculation that a fourth generation of nerve agents, ‘Novichoks’ (newcomer), was developed in Russia, beginning in the 1970s as part of the ‘Foliant’ programme, with the aim of finding agents that would compromise defensive countermeasures. Information on these compounds has been sparse in the public domain, mostly originating from a dissident Russian military chemist, Vil Mirzayanov. No independent confirmation of the structures or the properties of such compounds has been published. - Source: Robin Black, 2016, Development, Historical Use and Properties of Chemical Warfare Agents)

Further,

[The Scientific Advisory Board] emphasised that the definition of toxic chemicals in the Convention would cover all potential candidate chemicals that might be utilised as chemical weapons. Regarding new toxic chemicals not listed in the Annex on Chemicals but which may nevertheless pose a risk to the Convention, the SAB makes reference to “Novichoks”. The name “Novichok” is used in a publication of a former Soviet scientist who reported investigating a new class of nerve agents suitable for use as binary chemical weapons. The SAB states that it has insufficient information to comment on the existence or properties of “Novichoks”. - Source: The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons, OPCW: Report of the Scientific Advisory Board on developments in science and technology for the Third Review Conference 27 March 2013

The OPCW was so sceptical of the viability of novichoks that it decided – with US and UK agreement – not to add them nor their alleged precursors to its banned list. In short, the scientific community broadly accepts Mirzayanov was working on novichoks but doubts he succeeded.

If they exist at all, Novichoks were allegedly designed to be able to be made at bench level in any commercial chemical facility – that was a major point of them. The only real evidence for the existence of Novichoks was the testimony of the ex-Soviet scientist Mizayanov.

One should be mindful that the chemical components or precursors of A-232 or its binary version novichok-5 are ordinary organophosphates that can be made at commercial chemical companies that manufacture such products as fertilizers and pesticides. - Source: “Dismantling the Soviet/Russian Chemical Weapons Complex: An Insider’s View,” Dr. Vil S. Mirzayanov 1995 - Available for $8 on Amazon

It is a scientific impossibility for Porton Down to have been able to test for Russian novichoks if they have never possessed a Russian sample to compare them to. They can analyse a sample as conforming to a Mirzayanov formula, but as he published those to the world twenty years ago, that is no proof of Russian origin. If Porton Down can synthesize it, so can many others, not just the Russians.

And finally, Mirzayanov is an Uzbek name and the novichok programme, assuming it existed, was in the Soviet Union but far away from modern Russia, at Nukus in modern Uzbekistan. I have visited the Nukus chemical weapons site myself. It was dismantled and made safe and all the stocks destroyed and the equipment removed by the American government, as I recall finishing while I was Ambassador there. There has in fact never been any evidence that any “novichok” ever existed in Russia itself. - Source: Craig Murray, British Ambassador, Uzbekistan, 2002-2004

You're seeing the 5 Eyes work together to make sure the war machine keeps lining pockets and granting power. For fuck's sake reddit, aren't ANY of you tired of 50+ years of war?

Edit: Even better, According to the government line in March:

Professor Robert Stockman, of the University of Nottingham, said traces of nerve agents did not linger. He added: These agents react with water to degrade, including moisture in the air, and so in the UK they would have a very limited lifetime. This is presumably why the street in Salisbury was being hosed down as a precaution – it would effectively destroy the agent.' -Source

In fact, rain affecting the “novichok” on the door handle was given as the reason that the Skripals were not killed.

But now, magically, these agents can linger in high humidity and rainy environments for months - something that would be quite unique, at least in my 6 years of training in the USAF as a NBC Instructor, to learn.

So what do you think is going on here then? After reading your post I'm curious to know your thoughts on this whole situation

More of the same shit that has gone on since the 1950s. Intelligence Agencies keeping things just a hair shy from a boil for their financial and political benefit.

@BBCNewsnight's latest tweet

@BBCNewsnight on Twitter

^{I am a bot | feedback}

It's all a pile of bollox

Spies are killed all the time and you don't hear about it, because they don't want you to know.

With these poisonings we're suddenly privy to detailed information from an investigation which has barely begun. You have to ask yourself, why?

Maybe it was Russia, maybe it was someone else, maybe it was fentanyl or food poisoning. The point is, we are being fed this information for some particular reason, and it's not because the government cares about you knowing the truth.

What I don't get is why everyone in this thread acts like every outcome of this situation was deliberate? You guys do realize that government workers including intelligence agencies aren't perfect automatons and can make mistakes right? Maybe Russia just fucked up and accidentally revealed their involvement when they didn't mean too?

In 2003, while I was still on the job as a Firefighter/Hazmat Specialist, I attended DHS training in Anniston Alabama for Chemical, Ordinance, Biological and Radiological response.

The big exercise was an entry into a hotzone with live nerve agent. Level B entry with CAMs equipment and using other military detection provided location, isolated and identification of an organophospate, I recall it being VX. In the end it was rendered safe by applying a 10:1 mixture of Water/Sodium Hydrochlorate (Bleach). A whole bunch of hype, nervousness and excitement for a "what's the big deal' ending.

Basically set up safety zones, make entry and pour bleach on the shit and get it over with.

Yeah, novichok's only a hard to detect and persistent nerve gas that can lay around a long time until someone touches, inhales or eats it. Then you're damaged for life if you're lucky. Big whoop, just pour some bleach on that thing and go home.

Novichok is an nerve agent and is a different recipe of an organophosphate. They all have a persistency and can be detected. They are not hanging around in a gas form, they are similar to an liquid/oily form. That period you just passed... if it was physical VX it would be lethal to about 20 people in an average sized room.
They are all deadly and will kill you, if you are unprotected. If you are properly trained, wearing minimum Level B protection (Splash and respiratory) have effective detection monitors, you can enter a hot zone, identify the agent, locate it, and render it null.

There we go, the resident novichok expert. As far as I know they haven't located any of it in the wild, and russian chemical weapons experts have stated that there were a number of variants developed which could be deployed in a number of ways, but you're right that it's probably not in a gas form. What they seem to be saying is that it is possible that this organophosphate could be in the form of a powder which would collect in low-lying areas like a heavier-than-air gas but more persistent. It could then get into your body, through breathing, through ingestion, or through the skin. Not every chemical agent only comes in certain specific forms, like Novichok which apparently was engineered specifically to be more hard to detect and protect against. Not everything is cookie cutter simple like they taught us in ABC training.

What I've read is that it was designed to be handled safely more toxic as VX, as resistant to treatment as soman, and more difficult to detect and easier to manufacture than VX capable of being delivered as a liquid, aerosol or gas via a variety of systems it is stable with very low evaporation rate. It was designed in the 1970s to be undetectable using standard 1970s and 1980s NATO chemical detection equipment. The ICAMS and new JCAD have been developed within the last 10 years with knowledge of Novichok, thanks to the Germans acquiring a sample in the 90s. I am not an expert, I was just an ICS certified Hazardous Materials Specialist, Decon Unit Leader, Safety Officer, Incident Commander, Instructor with DHS training for Rail, Radiological, Chemical, and Terrorist Bombing response. I was on a dedicated Hazmat Team in S.California for 8 years, during an 18 year career in the Fire Service. I consider myself adequately trained, well read, and confident in responding to any hazmat incident.

Thank you for your level-headed answer. I find a lot of scary prospects in the introduction of such a substance among the general population, especially since we don't know the bigger picture of what's going on here.

After 9/11 and WMD threat that was manufactured about Iraq or the 'white powder/anthrax' scare that occurred, there was a sudden influx of money for training for first responders with the treat of Nerve Agents. Remember the movie "The Rock" with the threat of S.Francisco being bombed with nerve agents? Well when you look at the big picture, the use of WMDs by terrorists just seem so improbable. The cost to develop and then to disperse it effectively? The Japanese Doomsday cult came closest to making it happen, they killed a couple of dozen people and injured about a thousand other. Even then it was a hokey affect. Terrorists, if they even exist, would be a lot more effective just standing in a Mall with a semi automatic weapon during Christmas shopping. Or lighting all the forests on fire in California. WMDs are just too expensive and have to be a government entity to make/use them.

Luckily, they just reported that a bottle containing liquid Novichok was found at the poisoned Charlie Rowleys house. Wonder where he got it?

This just came out today....Newly Released OPCW Report Reveals No Trace of Sarin or Nerve Agent in Dhouma Syria Chemical Attack Reported By The White Helmets On April 7th, 2018

https://steemit.com/news/@clarityofsignal/newly-released-opcw-report-reveals-no-trace-of-sarin-or-nerve-agent-in-dhouma-syria-chemical-attack-reported-by-the-white

Where the hell come those credulous people?

Btw

hellogchq

Now it's a murder investigation. Things gonna get hairier.

Yup. Shit is getting real bad.

The question is why would the bbc think that russia would poison a couple who have nothing to do with skripal smells like bullshit to me.

ITT people who think they know more than security experts.

Does anyone know the lifespan of this drug in the wild , 1 day , 1 week , months ,

https://twitter.com/rusembassynl/status/1016393968848920576

I choose to believe that if a modern first world state wants someone dead by poison, that person will likely die. We're what, 0-5 now? This is evidence of someone lacking the resources of an experienced chemical weapons division and experienced covert operations.

Just propaganda again. Scare tactics. Making sure you need your lovely government to protect you from the big bad wolf.

By the way, where are the Skripals? Why no word from them, nor evidence that they aren't being help against their will?

I have concluded days ago that the couple was targeted. The agent was applied to the door handle of his apartment, probably two times. Neither of them showed symptoms until entering the apartment. First, the girlfriend arrived, let herself in, and then they went for a stroll. She was stricken shortly afterward and sent to hospital. Boyfriend goes out for several hours with a friend, comes back to the apartment, gets the second dose by opening the door. Shortly after arrival, he is stricken, but nothing happens to the friend. Report in the Daily Mail July 9 says nerve agent was detected on only one hand of each victim. This would conform to the door handle theory. No one is asking the question of whether both victims became ill in the same period of time once entering the apartment. If those times match, that would go a long way to proving contamination happened at the apartment. As to WHY anyone would target this couple, the most logical reason would be to take focus off of Russia as the culprit for the first attack. The next reason is a little further afield: Somebody is extorting the government and demanding a huge payoff to stop the attacks. And the final reason is the scariest of all: A lunatic is on the loose.

RT News is reporting that it was initially thought to be drug contamination.

Just a small clarification regarding chemical analysis.

Wnen it's the first time that you encounter a sample and want to figure out its composition it takes a lot of time and effort to fully characterize the sample.

When you already have a hypothesis on what a sample might be, basically, when you know what you're looking for, everything goes much smoother.

So basically after the first Novichok incident got so much coverage, the guys who do chemical analysis were prepared to look for it in future poisoning cases. Regardless of if this case had Novichok or not, the technology exists for overnight characterization if you know what you're looking for.

So your argument is, if it's being reported by the news it must be propaganda?

Two British citizens were poisoned by Russia and you expect what? That the MSM is just going to ignore that?

If CNN reported a hurricane moving towards you would you just ignore it?

No, I don't think Boris Johnson is a credible source.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/04/boris-johnson-russia-spy-evidence/557216/

If this was residual novichok from Skripal assassination attempt, it has remained active enough to render people unconscious several months after being deployed.

That certainly sounds like a highly potent and very effective nerve agent.

It was effective in sending the message. Whether the victims died or were just critically ill probably doesn't matter too much, it still shows potential traitors that they're unsafe.

As somewhat of a counter point "alternative news" sites are also covering the incident at length in rabid defense of Russia when they do not know who is responsible.

Globalresearch.ca CHECK

moonofalabama.com CHECK

Zerohedge CHECK

Russia-Insider CHECK

The truth seeker.co.uk CHECK

I don't think the BBC are tweeting at people about it though.

https://mobile.twitter.com/MoonofA/status/1014844461178867713

You're right though, lots of propoganda out there about this.

The diplomatic expulsions of Russians by multiple countries show otherwise. If Russian agents are behind these attacks the expulsions seem an appropriate response. But until we know more about this new couple or how and where they were poisoned these two cases hardly prove the Russia can do whatever they want. As a casual observer looking in on these poisoning cases it reminds me of the Anthrax scare of 2001. When anthrax was sent to various US media members and Senators in sept 2001 it was initially thought to have been terrorism related - that is Al Qaeda or Iraq. It wasn't until years later that we found out it was likely an insider who commited the poisoning. It could very well be a similar situation today.

Major news outlets covering a major breaking story, who would have thought.

Have we done bad things? Absolutely

Are we as bad as Russia and the USSR? No one with any sense would think that

Is it also supposed to be effective?

Fixed.

i think what was more amazing was how they instantly detected novichok when skripal got poisoned and had everything on hand ready to deal with the poisoning of this exotic nowhere used poison that apparently only russia has LUL and its so deadly that they were both fine with no damages whatsoever sometime later.. k cool.

Novichok is an nerve agent and is a different recipe of an organophosphate. They all have a persistency and can be detected. They are not hanging around in a gas form, they are similar to an liquid/oily form. That period you just passed... if it was physical VX it would be lethal to about 20 people in an average sized room.
They are all deadly and will kill you, if you are unprotected. If you are properly trained, wearing minimum Level B protection (Splash and respiratory) have effective detection monitors, you can enter a hot zone, identify the agent, locate it, and render it null.