We shouldn’t.

Great post!

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

Basically, tribalism is destroying critical thought.

Yeah. Putin is literally a former member of the spy agency of America's sworn enemy.... your choice is to trust America, or trust an enemy agent. A man who shot down a plane full of citizens, who poisons abroad, who shots political opponents and reporters dead in the streets. Who would you trust?

None of them.

Sometimes He-Man had to team up with Skeletor to defeat Hordak.

I don't really see a He-Man in this situation

Tall blonde man that faced horrible evils and is hated by the usa as "toxic masculinity"

Ah yes, I pity the fact that he's faced such horrible evils in his rich, coddled lifestyle. You know, those horrible evils. The ones I can't remember right now. Right? You're with me right guys? This guy is a fucking saint right?

I'm definitely not talking about Trump as He Man- I'm talking about the common man. In this case skeletor would be the FBI and trump/Putin would be Hordak

your choice is to trust America, or trust an enemy agent.

In this case, by "America", I feel that you mean the unelected entity that profits from war and international conflict. The USA is the largest exporter of weapons in the world, and we should not forget that this "sworn enemy" stuff is a product of cold war thinking, the type of thinking that led to the over-inflated military budgets and geo-political clusterfucks we grapple with today.

Perhaps you personally think that that the cold war was productive and necessary, but I think its important to point out that the arms dealers that run this country benefit greatly from the "us against them" mentality that you present.

I agree with you that Putin is not a good leader by western standards, but do you trust US intelligence agencies to provide you with the truth?

I trust them a hell of a lot more than I trust Putin.

You need to be executed if you trust the military industrial complex whom profits off the destruction of Saudi arm sells and Israel led Palestine slaughters.

You need to be executed

Reported.

if you trust the military industrial complex whom profits off the destruction of Saudi arm sells and Israel led Palestine slaughters.

Don't forget this part you fucking moron.

Rule #10

You need to be executed if you believe Putin.

Reported.

Reported.

The world's not black and white you ignorant buffoon. It's not either Putin or the military industrial complex. It's called having some rational thinking.

I didn’t report you, just saying. And yeah no shit it’s not black or white, I don’t trust either, but I’d still trust US intelligence any day before Putin. You’re the one saying I should be executed for believing that.

You’re the one saying I should be executed for believing that.

Well I reported you, too fucking bad.

And yeah no shit it’s not black or white, I don’t trust either, but I’d still trust US intelligence any day before Putin.

No one's asking you to trust the US intelligence who have toppled over 80+ foreign governments (which of course, you don't care about, such as the CIA providing the Indonesian government with a kill list of 5000 civilians). You don't have to choose. You just need to trust yourself.

What the fuck is your problem dude. I don’t trust the CIA. I just trust Putin even less. I don’t see how that’s a controversial opinion.

but I’d still trust US intelligence any day before Putin

It's not a controversial opinion, my opinion is that you are stupid. Putin hasn't toppled any foreign government has he? You would rather trust the international police, the WMD, the dictatorship supporter, the 80+ government toppling intelligence network.

Well done you fucking deranged retard.

Have a good day man

Go support Putin, because he's so much better than the CIA.

I’m good comrade.

Go support the CIA, because they are so much better than Putin.

You reported someone for saying the exact same thing you said? Lmao what a tattle tale

Yeah so? It’s funny.

That's what I call a bitch. Can dish it out but can't take it back.

thats rather extreme don't you think ?

putin didn't make HRC tell tall tales about getting shot at by snipers

Why? based on their track record?

fool me once, shame on you

fool me twice, won't get fooled again

You must remember this was the same intelligence agencies that told the American people that Iraq had WMD's.

That was patently false, and that lie led to the invasion of Iraq, which destabilized the entire Middle East.

and they lied about 9/11 false flag that was used to justify invading 7 countries in 5 years

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RC1Mepk_Sw

I agree with you that Putin is not a good leader by western standards...

....and that donald is the result of the efforts by that man.

Trump supports Israel and therefore does not support Assad in Syria.

If Trump is a Russian agent, why has he bombed Syria three times in two years?

If Putin bought the US President, he is not getting a very good ROI.

Mueller is not telling you the truth. Stop listening to MSM.

Why did NRA spend 55 million of Russian money on Trump, 45 more than they did on Romney (none of which was Russian)?

Why did donald tell the Russians who the Israeli spy in Syria was? Why did he tell the Russians what the target in Syria was, before the counter-attack? Why did he not complain when Russian “mercenaries “ attacked US special forces?

Mueller has never made a single complaint about donald. He was appointed by a Republican AG, is a lifelong Republican, and volunteered for Vietnam as a Marine. He has dedicated his life to the US. The only people disparaging him are donald’s “followers” who had never heard of Mueller before donald cried about him.

Stop listening to foreign propaganda by a decades-long enemy of the US who personally profits when some of the country’s people profess hate for the US.

The why's and what if' are endless...

Why does Trump continue to recognize ISIS as an enemy when its clear that Hillary gave them the arms to create the Islamic State?

Why doesn't Trump help Julian Assange?

Why did Trump take $160 million in financing from George Soros to build the Trump International Hotel and Tower (Chicago)?

Mueller is a known Illuminist with ties to Bush and 9-11. The FBI has increased its reach into ordinary Americans lives since he has been in power and I am shocked that you follow MSM narrative that he is a good guy.

Just to be clear to anyone still reading this: nothing in that last post is true. It’s all “gay frogs” level of fiction. Not one shred of anything this pedo said has been confirmed by anyone other than the followers who want to believe it (or are scared of life).

FBI named their 9/11 investigation PENTTBOM (Pentagon Twin Towers Bombing) --- yet did NOT check for explosives at WTC or the Pentagon. (Proof the "investigation" was a Frame Up with pre-conceived political goals)

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=9%2F11+PENTTBOM+FBI

The planes exploded. They used the planes as bombs. It's easy to figure out, c'mon. You are fear mongering in the most dishonest of ways.

FBI director Robert Mueller plans to deliver the HEU sample once he arrives in Moscow Russia

https://i.redd.it/a7lubmuxbi801.jpg

Sorry, on mobile for the next few days, so can’t whip up a blank, uncited paper with highlights on an “email” where don jr and Maria Butina discuss framing Director Mueller in order to stop the investigation into Russian criminal activity, to keep his daddy’s pee tape secret.

Off topic: god damned if don jr isn’t a beta male from soy town, no? That guy always looks like a limp noodle.

Why did he not complain when Russian “mercenaries “ attacked US special forces?

why does noone complain about the ISRAEL sniper who had like 100 videos of HIS PERSONAL KILLS OF US TROOPS??!

links found here

https://www.blissful-wisdom.com/israeli-snipers-are-shooting-hundreds-of-american-soldiers-in-iraq.html

Why did he not complain when Russian “mercenaries “ attacked US special forces

why did noone complain about the USS LIBERTY??!!

couldn't possibly be that Hillary was a terrible candidate

https://np.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/7ygifv/so_the_dnc_gets_away_with_cheating_against_bernie/

She was absolutely the last one the Dems should have put forth. But it’s not a binary equation; donald squeaked by with one of the lowest electoral wins in modern history and lost the popular vote by a significant margin. The squeak-by was assisted by Russian influence, apparently.

To people who took (sincere) paths to protect the Constitution from enemies foreign and domestic, this level of interaction with foreign adversaries is a call to general quarters.

What makes your arrogant fucking ass think it's one or the other?

no evidence of Putin committing those acts. Keep believing mainstream news tho

Oh there is plenty. Keep believing a KGB agent tho

For argument's sake, if we're talking about the release of what were indisputably authentic emails of DNC / Hillary / Podesta, and they were taken by Russians hacking and releasing them, is this something we should threaten war over - that some entity exposed the voters of this country to the actual truth before they voted, because somehow it is the inalienable right of dems to keep their lies secret so they don't suffer politically for being duplicitous assholes? Dems did not make any fuss over wikileaks releasing hacked emails from 'R's' in the past.

I bring this up from time to time, what surprises me is how often people take the DNCs side.

I find it rather amazing that the truth, as in fact, is being regarded as election tampering. But I suppose that's the tyranny of the majority.

A man who shot down a plane full of citizens, who poisons abroad, who shoots political opponents and reporters dead in the streets, who is trained in psyops, who literally just said he wanted Trump to win.

Or you trust the CIA (who openly wanted Clinton to win) that smuggled cocaine into your own country, that FUCKED UP Latin America by sponsoring dictatorships; the only country that has ever nuked another country, that let 9/11 happen and kill thousands of its own citizens and lied about it and that elected BUSH TWICE.

No thanks, if this are the options then you MUST not choose. Just leave. Fuck this stupidity.

'America' =/= NSA / FBI / CIA / DOJ. I choose 'none of the above'.

Very natural comment I’ve read variations on all over reddit today.

You’re not fooling anyone guys. This statement contains so many half truths, which is a classic propaganda technique. (Propaganda that is 100% a lie is extremely ineffective. Half truths are very effective cause they aren’t all lies and generally fulfill people’s preconceived or previously manufactured notions.

You could also just have read that enough times your repeating it naturally on your own though too.

Go ahead and counter the claims, maybe use some RT sources

Go ahead and counter the claims, maybe use some RT sources

If you look at the big picture, the US needs Russia to help them with North Korea, Iran, and in Syria.

Most rational people, would rather see a harmonious relationship or at least cooperation between the US and

Russia, as opposed to a relationship filled with hostility and antagonization.

Your assessing this situation in a myopic way, as opposed to looking at the big picture.

You don't have to trust Putin but to ignore all the shady, immoral shit that the CIA has done and put your complete faith in them is pretty moronic.

OMG do you really believe RUSSIA shot down MH-17 ??!!

lemme guess, Russian spies ordered the plane to fly over a warzone huh?!

personally l trust RUSSIA more than l trust AMERICA.. Russia does NOT occupy MY country like America does.

how many countries does Russia have troops in compared to good ol' uncle sam?

it wasn't RUSSIA who overthrew the government of Australia on 11th Nov 1975, maybe Aussies should really start "America bashing" over interfering in OUR elections.. Hmmmm??!!!

11th November is REMEMBERENCE DAY in Australia, we will never forget...

A man who shot down a plane full of citizens, who poisons abroad, who shoots political opponents and reporters dead in the streets

Or so your government and agencies say, without any actual proof for about 95% of what they say.

Forget where I heard it but:

"The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy. Nothing more, nothing less."

The problem is that this is not necessarily true. Especially when there is a blatant history of damaging actions, as there is here. Just because a rattlesnake bit someone you don't like, doesn't mean the rattlesnake is your friend.

You're right. That's exactly my point but if I was ambiguous, you've elucidated perfectly.

To me, it's a sign of how mistaken the establishment is that they think we're listening to them and trusting them. They really seem to think that we've forgot all about Iraq, that we didn't read up on how they started Vietnam.
It's a weakness of theirs, really, that they are so self centred and conceited that they think their word is enough. They will receive a rude awakening if they try to start another war based on lies.

It's a weakness of theirs, really, that they are so self centred and conceited that they think their word is enough.

One of the downsides of being surrounded by yes-men and sycophants every day, you completely lose touch with reality.

It's a weakness of theirs, really, that they are so self centred and conceited that they think their word is enough.

for a minute there l thought this was a "bad LEO's forum" my bad :D

I don't think the Establishment will receive a rude awakening. The populace is war weary and apathetic. It is all so bland and commonplace to us by now-- existing in a state of constant war. The anti-war movement has all but evaporated. The protests against war are puny now. Besides, everyone is too distracted by social media and smart phones to mobilize.

You just described my emotions on the matter to a T. At least it's impetus for getting into shape. Fuck.

Michael Moore has a great little clip where he discussed exactly this. Note that this was made well before the 2016 election.

https://youtu.be/wxDRqeuLNag

I really wish it were true that a rude awakening was on the horizon, but they're some crafty bastards. And sadly, I know from face-to-face conversations that a lot of people just eat up the MSM narratives, and I include Fox in that group.

They're over extension into Syria is what really pissed the Russians off too.

Is that rude awakening the sound of a body hitting that sweet nectar dead drop on a rope for being a traitor, crimes equal to Nazism.

Lets see, torture facilitys, bombin kids, salting fields, we got nuclear armaments, biochemical warfare and electrostatic regiments for kids who won't take your pharma$$ ritalin.

...Pretty soon we are gonna need to start referencing American Crimes as the new goodwins law the new all be all., i mean, fuk sakes america

Basically, these spooks are still using their old playbook, but that doesn't work any more when wikipedia is a thing and I can, with a couple clicks, look up the laundry list of all of the evil things these alphabet soup agencies have done.

Awesome post. Just read the Operation Northwoods docs. These maniacs are not to be trusted.

I’ve got a ton of clips on the same subject.

Can you share a link to your channel? Always searching for more sane voices.

I'll be tuning in, thanks for the great post today.

Awesome - I'll def check it out!

I love the phallic qualitative questioning regarding the existence of bigfoot.

Yuh what time do you guys go live? I'm CST ;)

thx bruv

I guess it boils down to: you have to trust intelligence agencies VS you have to trust billionaire politicians.

It's truly a choice with no winners.

Its not one or the other. There is a way out.

Its not one or the other.

Yes it is.

USIC: "Russian state actors hacked the DNC."

Putin and Trump: "No they didn't."

Both cannot be true. They are mutually exclusive claims.

But if you don't know which is true, why would you make a conclusion?

You could just say, "I have no idea whether Russia hacked the DNC." Its possible that they did, and possible that they did not.

You could just say, "I have no idea whether Russia hacked the DNC."

Personally, this is why I'm waiting for the various trials by Mueller.

And what if they are corrupt and rig the trials?

They who? The Trump administration? How are they going to rig it?

With a corrupt judge and corrupt prosecution...? How else?

So if the end result of the trials are that the Trump team and Russia are found to be completely innocent, you'll assume it was rigged by "Mueller, Rosenstein, and the rest of the Deep State" and call it bullshit? Or is there only one outcome that you'll believe?

I'll just have to see the evidence for myself and hear the arguments in this hypothetical case, and then I can make my own determination.

If the outcome of a trial is enough for you, then good for you. That's you, not me.

Where did this silly accusation come from?

Ironically, I didn't make a silly accusation, but you did in your previous response. I said "if."

No, that's exactly what you did. However it's pointless to continue this. The trials will happen and we'll see what happens next. This conversation is done, but feel free to respond with more made up stuff because I know you're just dying to get the last word in. Have fun.

The trials will happen and we'll see what happens next.

Which trials will happen?

Manafort for one. Five others have already plead guilty so no trial for them. Mueller just requested immunity for 5 people to testify against Manafort. I assume the Russian lady that was working with the NRA and GOP is going to go to trial or make a deal. I'm sure there's more to come or the investigation would be over.

Manafort for one.

Have you read the indictment? What could you honestly hope to learn from that, that has anything to do with Trump-Russia? We were talking about "Russian meddling."

This is why you’re waiting on the Mueller??!??! Lol! The guy who sold us Iraq has WMDs and covered up 9/11?!?!!! You are too funny!!!

I’m so curious why someone who has so much confidence in elite dc coverup operatives like mueller would be in this sub... 🤔 very weird!

That’s nice. And?

It doesn't have to be answered with propaganda from the repubs or propaganda from the democrats. Both are lying. Let's focus on the known evidence with some historical perspective of reality.

War mongers are trying to corner us into a new cold war to justify military budgets.

The degree of election interference is dubious. The content of the hacks tells us it was information that US citizens did indeed need to be aware of that was being concealed. The information was also first released to yet an additional country, probably China. Also the information was likely hacked locally, by memory stick, not by internet access. The information probably also did not affect the outcome of the election vote. And there were other illegal or unethical or dubious elements of the election that have not been addressed, remedied, etc. Russia's meddling is different than Israeli or Saudi or German because of what? Who decides that Russia is more of an enemy than the others? Because of US policy in Nato expansion, or US policy in Syria? US policy in Ukraine and Syria was dead wrong, Russia did what any country who wanted to preserve its self interest would have done. We should focus on world peace and not fabricating an enemy for the convenience of the deep state military industrial complex who misses the cold war and whose excuses for war in the middle east have been exposed.

That's a nice info dump meant to deflect from the point we were discussing.

The lie you are trying to push is that the propaganda of one or the other of the two political parties has to be sided with. No, we don't have to side with one or the other of the two corrupt parties! No, we don't have to accept either agenda.

What you call an info dump is what I call determining what the real agenda should be based on not falling under the spell of a conspiracy. We are supposed to expose conspiracies here, not be agents for them.

USIC: "Russian state actors hacked the DNC."

Putin and Trump: "No they didn't."

Both cannot be true. They are mutually exclusive claims.

Please explain which part of that you disagree with and why.

Did you personally look at the DNC server in the absence of anyone else being allowed to?

Please explain which part of anything the USIC says that is credible?

USIC: "Russian state actors hacked the DNC."

Putin and Trump: "No they didn't."

Both cannot be true. They are mutually exclusive claims.

Please explain which part of that you disagree with and why. Answer that first and then I'll answer your questions.

Oh, you have the answers? How interesting.

Based on what do you have the answers?

I am here to tell you that all you have is propaganda, no evidence.

Deja vu on this verbiage

Main question is did Russian meddling alter the results of the election, the answer is NO! Democrats elected a wholly unqualified and unlikable candidate. You make it sound like election meddling is so foreign, newsflash ITS NOT! I didn't hear a modicum of outrage when the CIA meddles in foreign elections.

did Russian meddling alter the results of the election, the answer is NO!

Sure, they did it just for funsies.

Umm people have been outraged about the CIA's shenanigans for fking decades. Where have you been??

Some people have been outraged, butoverwhelming majority of Americans are not outraged, and just willfully believe everything the IC tells them.

My thoughts exactly

If you're against the MIC, supporting an R Pres/Congress/SC is ummm doing it wrong lol.

I voted for Jill. If your against the MIC supporting the two parties is wrong, LOL.

Speaking truth to power is still somewhat possible. Justification and plausible deniability is all our existing systems have left. They are leeching off of the work of others and do no real work.

Trump agreed with the USIC.

lol. Gaslighting me won't work.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jul/17/donald-trump-putin-summit-republicans

He walked back his first statement. And then walked back on his walking back, a bit, in the same breath.

Exactly. So, like I said, don't try to gaslight me and tell me that Trump agreed with the USIC.

What an absolutely weak man, mentally and morally

Well, first of all the claims on both sides are more complicated than that, and both sides may in fact be correct.

It is highly likely that the Russians hacked the DNC. Along with China, Iran, Israel, and a number of private parties. Their security was atrocious, they were wide open, and the value of information to be gained was extremely high. You'd be an idiot to think the Russians didn't hack the DNC.

Oh and also the GOP. Don't think state actors weren't all over the GOP as well.

But it's a stretch to claim it was the Russians who leaked the info to WikiLeaks. A lot of hands were in the pot. State entities tend to like to keep things secret to use as blackmail. It is far more likely that Russia was monitoring and gathering blackmail intelligence.

Somebody leaked it, but it probably wasn't the Russians.

Now, the twist in all this is that the leak SHOULD have won Hillary the presidency. Instead, it cost her the presidency. If she had run an honest campaign then America would have gladly elected our first female president. But instead, we saw that she was every bit the corrupt, cheating, backstabbing corporate whore we feared, so we elected someone else.

Awkwardly, that turned out to be Donald Trump. Thanks, DNC, for having too many fucking skeletons in the closet.

I would trust neither but skeptically observe instead. Sometimes the only power they leave you with is exercising no choice.

It's truly a choice with no winners.

Actually there's no choice with no winners (general public).

Is the choice to name your intelligence agency the cia/cie (I argue the a/e frame is clearly visible) a choice with no winners?

l wouldn't trust American alphabet agencies to tell me the correct time of DAY without double checking a clock never touched by them.

Everything they have done in the name of 'national security' has created more enemies and made us less safe as a nation. Also, the concept of Privacy itself has been a casualty of their actions. You know how many people stop me in mid conversation because 'they're afraid the NSA is listening'. This is insane.

Break them in a thousand pieces and scatter them to the wind.

be careful now...

that's a quote by J.F.K. you just cited, and we seen what happened to him

The last non-fascist president America had until Donald Trump....and the jury is still out on Trump.

If the alphabet agencies told me that the sky is blue, I would immediately assume something awful has happened to it.

Military Intelligence, not civilian

You would have to be unbelievable stupid to trust the US IC.

And just as stupid to trust Putin.

You can distrust both. They're not mutually exclusive.

When it comes to this issue, they are mutually exclusive. Theres only one answer here. Either they did interfere or they didnt.

I'm going with it was the US IC that interfered and now they are passing the blame.

Cool so siding with Russia over your own country. Nice.

In what way did I say that I sided with Russia? You are deranged.

There is one answer here and both sides are saying opposite things. You have to pick one here. And like a true patriot, you disagree with Trump and your own country on this one.

No, it is not black or white, "us" vs "them"

That is a dumb oversimplification, and I'm not playing your stupid game.

The issue isnt whether or not the IC interferes elsewhere. Weird that that is even your defense of your point. So so weird.

The issue is whether the IC is correct that Russia interfered. There are no hypocrites in international politics, just like it is not hypocrisy to play defense while simultaneously trying to score goals on the opposition.

This is simple stuff fellow Americans.

Remember when W said this verbatim to get people to support killing Iraqis? Because I sure as hell do. And what do you know, it was the intelligence communities who LIED about those "weapons of mass destruction" back then too. Why should we trust these people who have lead to the deaths of millions with their lies?

When it comes to intelligence they didnt actually lie. They couldn't prove Iraq didnt have any nukes so the administration spun that to say we need to act preemptively. It's not like the CIA drove us into war that time. Bush did.

Well even then, you cannot deny all of the other morally bankrupt incidents that the IC has participated in throughout the years. With no hyperbole, I think a list of their human rights violations could be 6 or 7 digits long with entries. They're basically the American SS bullying dissident individuals and groups into compliance. Remember there are a whole lot of good jobs in the world; these people signed up to imprison, spy, and torture. What does that say about the moral character of these agents?

In some regards, absolutely. In this, I'm not sure. You'd also have to disbelieve the UK/France/Germany/Ukraine's intelligence communities. All much more trsutworthy than a ex-kgb defacto dictator.

What, you don't think the CIA has your best interests at heart? Those torture programs and black sites were all just a big misunderstanding.

gotta wonder where they dug up the sick prick who enjoys torturing people, in a different life he would be in jail for being a physchopath.

torture only EVER recieves the information the tortutor WANTS to hear, you can get a man to say he is a woman if you hurt them enough

The opposition is a president and Republican majority Congress clearly pushing Russian interests above our own and above our long time European allies especially UK and Germany.

And are you saying that in spite of the obvious moves against you and your nation you should kiss up to Putin?

So is this post actually an advertisement for your podcast or what

I really hope you take him up on the podcast offer.

Not to mention the influence Israel or should I say full control of our government is FAR more dangerous than Russian.

We have clear examples, the Iraq war is a starting point.

Did Russia drag us into a war in Iraq? Afghanistan? or Libya?

We don't have allies. We have parasites

Imagine actually believing this.

Thats some strong koolaid.

why doesn't the EU have its own army?

lol wat?

The individual nations all have their own respective military forces...seeing as they all speak different languages, that makes perfect sense to me.

Can you tell me these Russian interests that are being pushed by the GOP? Because I hear this talking point pushed all the time with no evidence to back it up

Removal of sanctions for one.

Just this morning Trump made a comment about Montenegro, a country neither he or any of his base had heard of prior to this Putin meeting. Also a country that Russia attempted to take by hard coup just 2 years ago.

What sanctions were removed?

How does manipulating NATO to spend more on defense indicate a weaker NATO?

Division among Americans is not Trump's doing. There were riots going on before he even announced his run.

If division among Americans is their goal, they should just buy Fox and CNN because those assholes are doing a better job than RT ever could.

What sanctions were removed?

I didnt say they were removed...I said it was a russian interest being pushed by the GOP...

How does manipulating NATO to spend more on defense indicate a weaker NATO?

NATO hasnt been manipulated and isnt increasing spending anymore than they had already planned. You believe a lie.

Division among Americans is not Trump's doing.

America is more divided than ever since Trump was elected. Fact.

The Republican HOuse Intelligence and House Judicial Committee are both engaged in obstruction of the investigation into the Russian interference in the 2016 U.S. General Election.

Senate leader McConnell would not allow a public announcement by the U.S. Intelligence agencies during the last months of the campaign time before the November election.

But we should all be asking "Why is this intelligence true given these past actions and statements from our Intelligence Agencies?"

Why It’s Time to Dust Off John Mitchell’s Quote: “Watch What We Do, Not What We Say” https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/164489

Because if you dislike President Trump it's beneficial to your case

It seems to me you get downvoted to hell on this sub if you simply want hard evidence Russia manipulated the election.

Its absolutely surreal to watch the mental gymnastics

Yesterday my local news TV anchor said the phrase "election hacking" re alleged Russian meddling in US elections

I hardly ever watch TV, but I got the impression he repeated that lie so often that many of his viewers were convinced there was "election hacking"

Do you have evidence that there wasn't hacking? You seem pretty convinced there wasn't any hacking? Do you have evidence that supports this?

Not OP, but you can't prove a negative. It's a logical fallacy. The burden of proof is on the person making the allegation, and in this case, the allegation is that "Russia hacked the election."

I didn't ask for proof, just evidence.

In this specific context, it's the same thing. What's the evidence that you're not a child molester? No matter what characteristics of yourself you list, it will be impossible to assuage all doubt. Even if you had a camera crew film every minute of yourself for an entire year, I could just as easily say "well, maybe you just held in your urges for a year, because you knew how high the stakes were." Do you see how this works?

The burden of proof (or evidence) is on the person making the allegation. You can't ask "Do you have evidence there wasn't hacking?", it doesn't work that way.

All that makes the original statement a useless waste of time. They're arguing these points that are impossible to prove and are a huge waste of time.

believe it or not, i often get into "burden of proof" arguments with apollo moon landing dupes

they say that i need to prove that its a hoax, and that NASA has no obligation to prove they've gone to the moon...

i say "remarkable claims require remarkable evidence"...

to which they rebut, "the remarkable claim is that the moon landing is a hoax... its not remarkable to claim men have walked on the moon..."

the stupid... it burns

But the intelligence community would be foolish to air in public its methods and results for gathering that proof.

We are being told that the Russians "hacked our elections"; we are being told by prominent politicians and leaders that this is "an act of war," that we must "respond," and that this (alleged) Russian intervention justifies actions including sanctions, an increased military budget, and (potentially) removal of the current sitting president. These accusations have elevated global tensions enormously, to the point where conflict doesn't seem unfathomable.

Given the stakes, yes, the American people deserve to see irrefutable proof of these allegations. If American blood and treasure will potentially be expended because of it, then we deserve to see the reasoning for it. Too often in American history, money has been spent and lives has been lost due to lies (Vietnam War, Iraq War, etc.), so it's foolish to say "well, the intelligence community says it, therefore it must be true."

Trusting the intelligence community with no evidence is just as bad as trusting Trump or Putin without evidence. All three have been shown repeatedly to be liars.

👏👏👏

that argument could be made by anyone for anything

for example, i could claim that i have hard proof that /u/McNothingBurger is a child molester, but i can't show you the proof without exposing my sources and methods... so you just have to trust me that /u/McNothingBurger molests kids every day

Thats true, the argument that

the intelligence community would be foolish to air in public its methods and results for gathering that proof

which is why its an easy and obvious target for disinfo agents from foreign intel agencies. But it is a reality of intel gathering.

The important thing is that what they are concluding matches up with what we see and what allied foreign intel agencies have seen and concluded. They have no reason to lie to the american people. They have no loyalty to democrats, which is the main argument from anyone who calls this a 'witchhunt'

They lie all the time, they have zero credibility left. They should just pack it up and go home, we have no use for the pathological lies of the Intel agencies

Did you think we forgot about Sandy Hook fake school shooting?

Who should the president go to if he wants to know what Russian or Chinese agents are up to?

What if he wants to know if China is gearing up militarily? Is he going to go with his gut to know how many tanks are being produced? Is he going to watch Fox news? Is he going to ask Putin?

No. He needs to use his intelligence agencies, there is no other way to know.

allied foreign intel agencies

they are ALL in lockstep with their American Masters, remember how the so called allied foreign intel agencies ALL agreed there were WMD in Iraq. John Howard needs to burn in A hell with blair bush and cheney. (better yet, ZERO their bank balances, hit them where they will feel it most)

No they gather their own shit and share it with us when neccessary. Political decisions are made above them, and we are definitely not in lockstep politically now.

After 9/11 I think we were, it was a different time and a different situation

No reason to lie?!!!?!?????! LOL!

Have you actually looked into any conspiracies or do you hang out here to shove an agenda down the throat of this sub??

The intel communities of our allies?

I would love to see any evidence you have that Russia "hacked the election." Hell, I would love have a consensus on what that term fully entails.

I never claimed to have any. I'm waiting for Robert Mueller's report on the matter.

the same Robert Mueller who couldn't figure out who attacked the Pentagon on 9/11?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daNr_TrBw6E

the same Robert Mueller who couldn't figure out who mailed Anthrax to Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle while he was debating the PATRIOT act?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_anthrax_attacks

the same Robert Mueller who was directly implicated in FISA abuse, and spying on a presidential candidates campaign?

https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/372233-nunes-memo-raises-question-did-fbi-violate-woods-procedures

that Robert Mueller should get the speedy trial he is entitled to, followed by a long incarceration

https://i.redd.it/qwophjt9gzaz.png

http://imgur.com/duLfP58

LOL you really believe those sources?

got an actual rebuttal?

https://i.redd.it/ufi38clcmxuy.png

Do you have an actual argument or just a list of youtube videos?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUMygykFWnY

u//enoughyoutubespam

Define hacking.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=election+machine+hacking+testimony

https://www.google.com/search?q=definition&client=ms-android-verizon&prmd=bsniv&source=lnms&tbm=vid&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjG4dn70qncAhURS6wKHXijBlUQ_AUIFSgF&biw=360&bih=559&dpr=3

if you could just point to a single example of "election hacking" done by Russians anywhere in the 2016 election, you'd be a lot father along than the mainstream media

There is a guy currently investigating that, his name is Robert Mueller. He's got all your evidence, we're all just gonna have to be patient for a little bit.

do you think Robert Mueller will be able to continue his investigation once he is indicted for his own crimes re FISA abuse?

Congressman Gives Speech About Robert Mueller's Long History Of Corruption

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUMygykFWnY

More youtube videos?

hmm. i bet a youtube video could be used as evidence to convince you that men have walked on the moon...

/r/ApolloMoonLandingHoax

be brave, go down the rabbit hole

Lol!! Mueller, the guy who sold us WMDs in Iraq and covered up 9/11?!!!? Hahahahahaha! The stupidity or agenda is strong in you!

Bro, if you got some good links share 'em.

I wish journalists would stop using the verb "hacking." It's such a useless clickbaity word.

"He used a computer to send an email! Let's call it hacking and get all the eyeballs!"

Shill brigades. They want to control what is discussed on this forum and how it is discussed.

Downvotes + strawmen. The most common one is usually "Oh you TRUST PUTIN???"

"This place is T_D 2.0!!!"

That's for CA, not here. Get out xD

"Oh you TRUST PUTIN???"

The fun part about asking this question is that you get responses from Putin sycophants telling us that Putin is the only one true defender of freedom in the world, and that he is a saint, especially when compared to western leaders.

I just love seeing it out in the open and its soo easy

Do you get downvoted for wanting hard evidence of pizzagate?

ye

hard evidence

I guess you missed the whole Butina affidavit?

A grand jury had to see some evidence in order to indict the 13 Russians it's indicted so far. Maybe we won't think that evidence is very compelling when it comes out at trial, but at this stage in the process you can't say there hasn't been any evidence.

American media is captured by the Israel Lobby. When US "Intelligence" reports info that agrees with the Lobby's goals, then the media reports that intelligence information as rock solid and valid. Later, when it's obvious to all that it really wasn't valid, the media try to save their credibility by reporting about how they were all "fooled".

I just love it when "the facts" in a story keep changing, and when the media gets called out for it, the apologists say honest mistakes happen when journalists are racing to meet a deadline for a story

And when I suggest that maybe we shouldn't trust journalists then, because they seem to be too rushed to do a good job, they insist that journalists should still be trusted ... moments after their "facts" got debunked

Media's job isnt just to report "facts."

They also report on what people say, what people tell them, and draw conclusions based on what they know.

According to Boston Globe columnist Kevin Cullen, Bill Richard had just completed the marathon and Martin went out to hug his father and returned to his mother and sister just as the first bomb exploded

https://i.redd.it/2marnngm3t601.png

Rep Stephen Lynch corrects the record

https://i.redd.it/3v6xed1ufn401.png

The intelligence agencies are not trustworthy. This does not entail that Trump and/or Putin is trustworthy.

What??? You mean you have a nuanced opinion that doesn't include knee jerk support for one tribe or another? Citizen though crime detected!

I mean one of them is lying

And its more likely that its the us govt than trump

Ah yes because trump hasn’t told a single lie in his life.

He really hasnt

Despite Obama's repeated claims that Trump lies there's not very many examples

He lies on a daily fucking basis. The US is far from trustworthy but give me a fucking break.

So you should be able to provide an extremely long list of these, correct?

Okay, here's a good one that's popping up very recently:

Trump "misspeaking" about Russia. He changed one word, which just made it contradict with EVERYTHING ELSE he said after that sentence.

The desperation you guys have is incredible.

So ONE thing?

Andbits not even a lie

You just watch too much tv

Its perfectly possible he mispoke

And again. One thing

Lmao. You asked for an example and he gave you one just from yesterday. "WOWWWWWW ONLY ONE EXAMPLE"

Like anyone's going to list out 100 of his 1000 of lies so you can just respond "WOWWWWW ONLY 100 EXAMPLES?"

Except its not a lie and only one example

Youre just so blinded by ur hatred of a male president that u cant see

What about the lies I posted?

Its perfectly possible he mispoke

Once, sure but repeatedly? Nah

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/23/opinion/trumps-lies.html

debunking the nytimes "fact check" (nytimes lies

That only "fact checks" a few of the things Trump has said. I'll admit the media does life themselves but Trump is a serial bullshitter to the max.

How stupid are you?

https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/8znz6k/the_latest_trump_says_he_misspoke_on_russia/e2k8a4r/

Also, the only reason I picked one lie to focus on is for two reasons: this is the most recent, and it's a glaringly obvious fucking lie that even 70 IQ retards could pick up on. Also, I'm not going to waste my time researching something for said retard, if they're going to dismiss it with... retarded logic.

Here, 5 seconds of googling. Have at it: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/23/opinion/trumps-lies.html

debunking the nytimes "fact check" (nytimes lies

Most of them are opinions and the few statements are true

Im tired of dems repeating the debunked claims that illegal immigrants dont vote

That was pre 2018. Time moves forward and we get new information. I'm not gonna sit on my ass and dedebunk an old, independent medium article.

in the future just share this:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/23/opinion/trumps-lies.html

Many Americans have become accustomed to President Trump’s lies. But as regular as they have become, the country should not allow itself to become numb to them. So we have catalogued nearly every outright lie he has told publicly since taking the oath of office. Updated: The president is still lying, so we've added to this list, taking it through Nov. 11, and provided links to the facts in each case.

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/statements/byruling/false/

Here you go. I know that google can be hard sometimes...

yup: full list- https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/23/opinion/trumps-lies.html

here's just the first two months he was in office

Jan. 21 “I wasn't a fan of Iraq. I didn't want to go into Iraq.” (He was for an invasion before he was against it.) Jan. 21 “A reporter for Time magazine — and I have been on their cover 14 or 15 times. I think we have the all-time record in the history of Time magazine.” (Trump was on the cover 11 times and Nixon appeared 55 times.) Jan. 23 “Between 3 million and 5 million illegal votes caused me to lose the popular vote.” (There's no evidence of illegal voting.) Jan. 25 “Now, the audience was the biggest ever. But this crowd was massive. Look how far back it goes. This crowd was massive.” (Official aerial photos show Obama's 2009 inauguration was much more heavily attended.) Jan. 25 “Take a look at the Pew reports (which show voter fraud.)” (The report never mentioned voter fraud.) Jan. 25 “You had millions of people that now aren't insured anymore.” (The real number is less than 1 million, according to the Urban Institute.) Jan. 25 “So, look, when President Obama was there two weeks ago making a speech, very nice speech. Two people were shot and killed during his speech. You can't have that.” (There were no gun homicide victims in Chicago that day.) Jan. 26 “We've taken in tens of thousands of people. We know nothing about them. They can say they vet them. They didn't vet them. They have no papers. How can you vet somebody when you don't know anything about them and you have no papers? How do you vet them? You can't.” (Vetting lasts up to two years.) Jan. 26 “I cut off hundreds of millions of dollars off one particular plane, hundreds of millions of dollars in a short period of time. It wasn't like I spent, like, weeks, hours, less than hours, and many, many hundreds of millions of dollars. And the plane's going to be better.” (Most of the cuts were already planned.) Jan. 28 “The coverage about me in the @nytimes and the @washingtonpost has been so false and angry that the Times actually apologized to its dwindling subscribers and readers.” (It never apologized.) Jan. 29 “The Cuban-Americans, I got 84 percent of that vote.” (There is no support for this.) Jan. 30 “Only 109 people out of 325,000 were detained and held for questioning. Big problems at airports were caused by Delta computer outage.” (At least 746 people were detained and processed, and the Delta outage happened two days later.) Feb. 3 “Professional anarchists, thugs and paid protesters are proving the point of the millions of people who voted to MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!” (There is no evidence of paid protesters.) Feb. 4 “After being forced to apologize for its bad and inaccurate coverage of me after winning the election, the FAKE NEWS @nytimes is still lost!” (It never apologized.) Feb. 5 “We had 109 people out of hundreds of thousands of travelers and all we did was vet those people very, very carefully.” (About 60,000 people were affected.) Feb. 6 “I have already saved more than $700 million when I got involved in the negotiation on the F-35.” (Much of the price drop was projected before Trump took office.) Feb. 6 “It's gotten to a point where it is not even being reported. And in many cases, the very, very dishonest press doesn't want to report it.” (Terrorism has been reported on, often in detail.) Feb. 6 “The failing @nytimes was forced to apologize to its subscribers for the poor reporting it did on my election win. Now they are worse!” (It didn't apologize.) Feb. 6 “And the previous administration allowed it to happen because we shouldn't have been in Iraq, but we shouldn't have gotten out the way we got out. It created a vacuum, ISIS was formed.” (The group’s origins date to 2004.) Feb. 7 “And yet the murder rate in our country is the highest it’s been in 47 years, right? Did you know that? Forty-seven years.” (It was higher in the 1980s and '90s.) Feb. 7 “I saved more than $600 million. I got involved in negotiation on a fighter jet, the F-35.” (The Defense Department projected this price drop before Trump took office.) Feb. 9 “Chris Cuomo, in his interview with Sen. Blumenthal, never asked him about his long-term lie about his brave ‘service’ in Vietnam. FAKE NEWS!” (It was part of Cuomo's first question.) Feb. 9 “Sen. Richard Blumenthal now misrepresents what Judge Gorsuch told him?” (The Gorsuch comments were later corroborated.) Feb. 10 “I don’t know about it. I haven’t seen it. What report is that?” (Trump knew about Flynn's actions for weeks.) Feb. 12 “Just leaving Florida. Big crowds of enthusiastic supporters lining the road that the FAKE NEWS media refuses to mention. Very dishonest!” (The media did cover it.) Feb. 16 “We got 306 because people came out and voted like they've never seen before so that's the way it goes. I guess it was the biggest Electoral College win since Ronald Reagan.” (George H.W. Bush, Bill Clinton and Barack Obama all won bigger margins in the Electoral College.) Feb. 16 “That’s the other thing that was wrong with the travel ban. You had Delta with a massive problem with their computer system at the airports.” (Delta's problems happened two days later.) Feb. 16 “Walmart announced it will create 10,000 jobs in the United States just this year because of our various plans and initiatives.” (The jobs are a result of its investment plans announced in Oct. 2016.) Feb. 16 “When WikiLeaks, which I had nothing to do with, comes out and happens to give, they’re not giving classified information.” (Not always. They have released classified information in the past.) Feb. 16 “We had a very smooth rollout of the travel ban. But we had a bad court. Got a bad decision.” (The rollout was chaotic.) Feb. 16 “They’re giving stuff — what was said at an office about Hillary cheating on the debates. Which, by the way, nobody mentions. Nobody mentions that Hillary received the questions to the debates.” (It was widely covered.) Feb. 18 “And there was no way to vet those people. There was no documentation. There was no nothing.” (Refugees receive multiple background checks, taking up to two years.) Feb. 18 “You look at what's happening in Germany, you look at what's happening last night in Sweden. Sweden, who would believe this?” (Trump implied there was a terror attack in Sweden, but there was no such attack.) Feb. 24 “By the way, you folks are in here — this place is packed, there are lines that go back six blocks.” (There was no evidence of long lines.) Feb. 24 “ICE came and endorsed me.” (Only its union did.) Feb. 24 “Obamacare covers very few people — and remember, deduct from the number all of the people that had great health care that they loved that was taken away from them — it was taken away from them.” (Obamacare increased coverage by a net of about 20 million.) Feb. 27 “Since Obamacare went into effect, nearly half of the insurers are stopped and have stopped from participating in the Obamacare exchanges.” (Many fewer pulled out.) Feb. 27 “On one plane, on a small order of one plane, I saved $725 million. And I would say I devoted about, if I added it up, all those calls, probably about an hour. So I think that might be my highest and best use.” (Much of the price cut was already projected.) Feb. 28 “And now, based on our very strong and frank discussions, they are beginning to do just that.” (NATO countries agreed to meet defense spending requirements in 2014.) Feb. 28 “The E.P.A.’s regulators were putting people out of jobs by the hundreds of thousands.” (There's no evidence that the Waters of the United States rule caused severe job losses.) Feb. 28 “We have begun to drain the swamp of government corruption by imposing a five-year ban on lobbying by executive branch officials.” (They can't lobby their former agency but can still become lobbyists.)

still waiting for a response here....

Over really trivial crap too, dude's a serial liar. He can't help himself.

He mixed up a detail. Every time he gets something like this wrong, he very clearly indicates that he isn't sure. Go back and look up the quote. He says something like "I think" or "I guess". What he heard was that it was the first time she had inspected her guard with a visiting head of state in 70 years. Oh boo fucking hoo. I wish he wouldn't make sloppy off-the-cuff remarks like that, but it's a far cry from being a liar. Those giant lists of lies that people love to pass around are horseshit propaganda.

You might have a point except that this happens on a daily basis. He often qualifies them by saying "someone told him" or "I heard" or "I think" as to have an excuse (like you're making now) when called out on it. His staff is either severely misinforming him to stroke his ego or he's lying (or a mix of both). If you want an even more ovious example just look at his inauguration crowd lie. It's such a unnecessary and blatantly wrong lie but he goes with it anyway. Like, noone cares that your crowd was smaller than obama's, but Trump just can't help himself.

See, now you mixed up a detail. I didn't say that Trump said "with a visiting head of state". That's the detail he mixed up, because many sources did in fact report that it was the first time she had reviewed her guard with a visiting head of state in 70 years. Trump referred to these headlines and sloppily left out the "with a visiting head of state" part, at which point you can very clearly hear the uncertainty in his voice because he knows he may be mistaking a detail.

So, you mistook a detail just now from my previous comment. Does that make you a liar?

So go on, link those many sources. As far as I've read it's not uncommon for her to review her quard with a head of state, in fact she did so in 2011 with obama! Not only that but she's only been queen 66 years, so please link the "many" sources getting such an easily checked fact wrong that Trump blithely cited.

How convenient, all of the news sources have since retracted their articles. I will come back tonight and sift through archives, because now the narrative has chosen this as one of his chosen "lies". I followed this as it happened and saw several articles making the claim a few hours after the event. NBC was one of the sources.

The president of the United States is not supposed to mix up a detail. Yet, he manages to do just that every single day. Hell, his twitter feed alone provide ample sources where he was just flat out wrong. sorry I meant 'mixed up a detail'.

If this were your boss you would say he was the most incompetent tool ever. Yet, idiots keep rushing to make excuses for the man.

When you have websites dedicated to tracking trump’s lies, I wouldn’t call that ‘not very many examples’

So you should be able to provide an extremely long list of these lies, correct?

yup, here ya go

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/23/opinion/trumps-lies.html

https://i.redd.it/grbggl1y9i801.png

https://i.redd.it/z1cvle1onhjz.jpg

https://i.redd.it/8h5x8b251ddz.jpg

https://youtu.be/Uyar0goYMdU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuaKHhNBTNA&t=30s

The fuck is this racists shit?

still waiting for your response here.

95% or more of the examples on those websites are total garbage, either stretching the definition of a lie or not even a lie at all. Disagreement over principles or ideas does not constitute a lie. Mistaking some details in an off-the-cuff comment is not a lie. When you whittle away all the bullshit, you're left with shockingly little substance. I unironically believe his administration is the most honest I have seen in my life. Watching the level of effort people take to attack his character is only making me support him more. People lie about him at least 10,000 times more often than actually tells a lie. They just repeat the claims over and over until people get tired of arguing over it. It's gaslighting to the extreme.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/23/opinion/trumps-lies.html

please do tell. which are 'stretching the truth' here....

what is the domain name of this URL?

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/blogs/thelede/posts/suspect-number-2.JPG

context

https://np.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/7mqgeu/boston_marathon_bombing_red_pill/

I dont understand what you are saying

Yeah he lies shockingly little if you don’t count all the times he said something that wasn’t true.

Name an example of a lie ANYONE has ever told that you can’t explain away by saying “they misspoke” or “They just mistook a detail”. Every time he’s in front of people speaking, when he says something that isn’t true, it’s a lie.

every morning at http://CNN.com ...

Donald Trump asserts, without evidence, that the sky is blue

I think people like us are the majority. Tptb think they can demoralize us w/their large and loud shill army on social media but it only makes us open our eyes wider to be more incredulous of their baseless claims and motivates us to go to the source directly by reading and watching Trump’s actual words, which makes us support Trump even more.

I just want to give a shout out to all the shills here and everywhere else on SM: you are doing such good work, opening normies eyes w/your repeating and pushing tptb’s hate-filled baseless attacks of Trump! Thank you!! 😘😘😘

He really hasnt

People who think a President doesn't lie are beyond help. The kool-aid has been drunk

People who think a President lie are beyond help. The kool-aid has been drunk

Do you think Obama ever lied?

Every time he opened his cockholster

i think Obama lied about his birth certificate

https://imgflip.com/i/2e95wu

https://imgflip.com/i/2e95yi

https://imgflip.com/i/2e9623

you realize Rev Jim Jones was under control of CIA, and it was CIA who decided to kill everyone at Jonestown

Then what is your take on the supposed Russian interference?

It certainly happened. There is no way that Russia is not trying to influence things in the US. Just as the reverse it true. None of these KGB/CIA/Mossad guys are choir-boys.

Well yea, when you put it in a really vague way like that of course it happened. One Russian national posing a meme could alone be considered "meddling in our election." Its pretty meaningless.

Guilty as charged... I have to admit that I do not have insider info on what sort shit the Russian government, especially the SVR, is up to in the US. It is all illegal, so they tend not to advertise it. Do you have some special understanding?

I'm just skeptical of this focus on Russia, it doesn't seem to be genuine to me and seems based on ulterior motives. And yes, I realize that Russia are the "bad guys."

Thought this as well. I'm sure they probably did plenty during election, on both sides; but, so does every other major power, and some minor ones. I'd be more concerned with the hacks on energy industry and defense systems.

Who do think hacked the elections & politicians in the Ukraine? Germany? France? Bellarus? Similar attacks happened around d the world in a similar time frame using similar tools? Who do think had the motivation to do that to these particular countries and these particular elections? Have you read this Breitbart article from 2010 that suggests the GOP hack the DNC and publish their emails on WikiLeaks? Do you understand how Russia, WikiLeaks and Trump have common interests in stealing and releasing this info?

Anyone can make allegations, that doesn't make them true. None of that is proof, just that "it seems like something Russia would do." And with Vault 7, we know that our IAs could perform a hack and make it look like whoever they want.

So none of that is proof, and its quite possible that you are thinking exactly as those who performed these alleged hacks want you to think. I've seen the public get manipulated in just these ways far too many times to make any unfounded assumptions.

Everyone's known since March 2017 that the CIA can and does spoof 'foreign hackers'. Thus, the convenient OMGHAXXORZ articles blaming [whipping boy of the day].

Actually come to think of it, that leak was very coincidentally timed now wasn't it... :thinking:

Perhaps, instead of dumping the truth, they're scrambling to fix their narrative...

You're ignoring Occam's Razor. Sure, someone with incredible resources could go through all this trouble to frame Russia, Trump and WikiLeaks, but why? None of their defenders have offered any explanation other than some nebulous "Deep State" conspiracy. What was the motivation? As I pointed out to you in the 2010 article, Republicans, Russians and Julian Assange have all publicly gone on record with their reasons for doing exactly what we all saw happen. It's simply much more plausible that the people who benefited most from the hacking were the ones who actually did it.

The same reason that they tried to frame Assad for using sarin gas on his own people when he had no motive to do so, or when they tried to frame Russia in the Skripal poisoning or more recent poisoning in England...

Occam's Razor is just a guideline that can certainly be incorrect, especially when dealing with intelligence agencies that make a habit out of obfuscation and misleading the public.

And that reason would be... what exactly? There is no plausible counter-arguement to the mountains of hard evidence pointing to Russia. Have seen the leaked evidence from the NSA Report? Or the leaked WikiLeaks chat logs](https://theintercept.com/2018/02/14/julian-assange-wikileaks-election-clinton-trump/). Or the evidence of Trump Org and WikiLeaks servers communicating with servers in Russia?

The reason would be that the NWO is threatened by Russia. And your supposed "mountains of evidence" aren't evidence at all. Point to one established fact that you think proves it, that isn't some sort of appeal to authority or vague accusation.

Did you read the indictments? You have dates and times and names and locations that coincide with the actual events. Have you read the independent reports by CrowdStrike, SecureWorks and Fidelis? Can you dispute any of the evidence? These are independent security companies that have reputations to uphold, or else they lose their business. Why would they support the government? Is there any non-governmental agency that you would believe or will nothing satidgy you short of your own personal copy of all of the data on all of the hundreds of servers and email accounts that were hacked/phished? What do make of the server IP logs linked in my last comment? What's wrong with those?

DON'T YOU TRUST CROWDSTRIKE???

You're asking me to trust the word of a bunch of liars who are pushing an agenda. No, no I don't trust these fucks, and you are a naive fool if you do.

So you have no actual counter-arguement and no evidence to support your alternate theories. So why should I believe you? You've given me nowhere near the amount of evidence that I've given you. Even if it's circumstantial, my side is blowing yours out of the water. That's why you're losing this sub.

You must me a gold medalist in mental gymnastics!

You said, “I have to admit that I do not have insider info on what sort shit the Russian government, especially the SVR, is up to in the US. It is all illegal, so they tend not to advertise it.”

If you don’t have any real info on what they do, how do you know what they do is illegal?

Because if you open your mouth with info that's not yours to give you can lose your life.

So you agree that it happens all the time, regardless of whos in power/running for power, and that the russia investihation isnanwitch hunt?

There's no logical connection between the first and second part of your question.

He said that Russia would be influencing the elections regardless of who was running.

So the Trump-Russia scandal is a total witch hunt, Russia would have done it regardless of who it was.

If the Russians had something on Trump, say a tape, or a bunch of illegal transactions, they would want him in office very badly. That way, they could control the President of the US. They would do it equally to Clinton if they had her tape.

Except you can't influence Russian elections because they have none. That's the difference in case you were confused.

I guess neither is Trump since he´s just repeating the scripts the CIA is now writing for him.

As a Trump supporter, I agree.

This is what is so frustrating. I say something about how we need to remain sceptical of US intelligence agencies and people accuse me of being a Russian bot or Trump lover. No you blithering idiots, it's possible to not see the world in absolute black and white.

This is like my parents. They are on the 'Clintons's are pedos' train but for some reason that them that means they have to support Trump. When ever I point out anything about Trump etc that is dodgy they always revert to whataboutism. I can't seem to get through to them that both sides are bad.

To make it more odd they think Putin is super evil, but Trump is only buddies with him coz 'Trump has something up his sleve"

When you've had your head so turned around every which way by propaganda and bought into it I guess you gotta convince yourself of some silly shit at certain points.

What smart, well informed parents you have! They must be so disappointed in you falling for mockingbird media’s lies. No doubt they raised you better than that. 😔 I feel so sorry for them.

For the Iraq war specifically, the CIA said the weapons of mass destruction were 'unverified' - Cheney and Powell were the ones pushing that it meant Iraq had them. So not the CIA.

That being said they've done plenty of stuff in the past( even against US citizens - see Operation Midnight Climax ), but blaming them for Iraq is a bit wrong.

OP is implicating the IC in general - not just one agency. FBI (headed by Mueller at the time) had a lead role in selling the war, but CIA clearly had a hand in paving the way for hi-jackers to enter our country. Even if you don't think 9/11 was an inside job, CIA officers fast tracked 15 visas to Saudis that would have been denied under ordinary circumstances. I don't think any of us are naive enough to think that ALL members of the IC are complicit - it only takes a few rotten potatoes to spoil the batch and they are very very adept at compartmentalization of information. See Manhattan Project to understand just how good they are at keeping secrets.

Not trying to derail this, but I have to point this out -

See Manhattan Project to understand just how good they are at keeping secrets

This is the second time in as many weeks someone here has tried to say that exact thing. Weird that the same claim is made by multiple accounts, almost word for word.

Anyway As I said to the last person, there were tons of leaks. A reporter even found (and wrote an entire article) exposing Los Alamos, when it was a 'secret city' - including how to get there, what security there is, which buses go in and out - tons of information. This wasn't the only leak - there were tons.

The reason the overall Manhattan project didn't leak has less to do with compartmentalization and more to do with working on something that no one knew existed or even could. The nuclear bomb was an impossible idea to most until it happened. It was too ridiculous and dismissed.

If someone told you that your neighbor had a working UFO in their garage, you wouldn't immediately run to the news - you would probably laugh... even if he did have one

Compartmentalization only works on a small scale - the more compartments there are, the higher chance they will cross. If and when they do, pieces go together and the secret is out.

If you're going to accuse me of shilling, please be explicit and provide examples. YEAH my fucking 6 year old account with entirely consistent (mostly socialist/left-leaning) commentary has finally gotten the clue to engage sleeper agent action! Da komerade!

I have referenced the Manhattan project a number of times because it's a great example of compartmentalization well before the information age. There may have been stories, but NOBODY expected them to deliver a weapon on that level. To suggest compartmentalization only works on a small scale is ridiculous - look at SR-71, U2, hell - almost any planes. Look at the space programs... we very likely have ghost satellites floating around whose sole purpose is to attack other satellites - can you imagine how many people had to work on that.

To suggest compartmentalization isn't a thing is ludicrous - there are a number of books on the topic.

If you're going to accuse me of shilling

I'm not, i'm pointing out a narrative that is curiously being spread right now. Was there something recent that made you bring that specifically up?

here may have been stories, but NOBODY expected them to deliver a weapon on that level.

Right, because until people saw it, they wouldn't believe it could even exist.

can you imagine how many people had to work on that.

as few as humanly possible

To suggest compartmentalization isn't a thing is ludicrous

I didn't say that. It only works if there is no possible contamination from other compartments - which only happens if the compartments have no contact. People in Stagg Field had no contact with the people in Los Alamos. the 'compartment' were small and far from each other. A paper in Cleveland leaking a ton of information wouldn't be read by the people working on-site in Chicago.

example of compartmentalization well before the information age.

That's the problem though - we are in the information age. Compartment contamination is no longer avoidable.

I'm not, i'm pointing out a narrative that is curiously being spread right now. Was there something recent that made you bring that specifically up?

Wait, you're not accusing me of shilling but perhaps of having access to some databank of talking points? What would that make me? I'm in here trying to have rational discussions - not proposing wildly insane ideas or doing much else to indicate shillhood. You said you didn't want to slide the original topic (about CIA involvement), but it is now effectively slid...

Anyway, Manhattan Project is simply the most well-known example of successful info compartmentalization and it's used frequently in r/conspiracy as a means to push back against the frequent notion that "But nobody could keep a secret like that!!" I think you're a regular here, so you must have seen these discussions before but in a non-political right vs. left context.

as few as humanly possible

Sure, but still hundreds or thousands - systems of this complexity were impossible to achieve with small teams.

That's the problem though - we are in the information age. Compartment contamination is no longer avoidable.

Of course leaks happen all the time and it's perhaps more difficult to track and stifle these days, but the gov't uses principles of compartmentalization extensively. Like I said, there are entire books on the topic. It's not as simple as "hey don't tell the other guys." Here's some info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensitive_Compartmented_Information

Wait, you're not accusing me of shilling but perhaps of having access to some databank of talking points?

Not at all. Sometimes information gets repeated in places that becomes something people will subconsciously recall and bring up in conversation. It's a type of subliminal advertising marketers do. You can market an idea like that and put it casually into news items and people will start bringing it up. It can turn people into walking advertisements without them even knowing about it.

Here's some info:

The difference between that and what US intelligence is currently doing, is that information is never put out in the public to be refuted. A lot of people / compartments have touched the information in the 'Russia investigation'. At any of those steps, if the data was wrong, one of those compartments would potentially leak. If someone had evidence to prove the reports were wrong and got it to Trump, he would have a pardon ready before the leak even hit the news. It would completely vindicate him.

The difference between that and what US intelligence is currently doing, is that information is never put out in the public to be refuted. A lot of people / compartments have touched the information in the 'Russia investigation'. At any of those steps, if the data was wrong, one of those compartments would potentially leak. If someone had evidence to prove the reports were wrong and got it to Trump, he would have a pardon ready before the leak even hit the news. It would completely vindicate him.

OK, but you and I were talking about CIA involvement in the lead up to the Iraq War, not the Russian investigation. That is no doubt a complete shit show. I don't really have a firm grip on the veracity of Russia's involvement, but I'm inclined to ignore findings from the FBI until we see hard evidence. However, I'll keep an open mind - it's just that IC has lied to us so many times before.

OK, but you and I were talking about CIA involvement in the lead up to the Iraq War, not the Russian investigation.

Sorry, I'm currently in like 3 different conversations on here during breaks at work and can't keep track of which one I'm responding to, haha.

However, I'll keep an open mind - it's just that IC has lied to us so many times before.

I've said that before, we should be skeptical of everything on all sides that we don't personally consider a 'trusted source', and that multiple sources corroborate it.

Well - appreciate the dialog and I think we agree. Thanks for your civility - cheers.

Los Alamos was also hard to keep sercret becuase you had a bunch of scientists working their, many of whom were not Americans by birth, who did not agree with the military obsession with secrecy for one, and did not think that the US should be the only County to have the ability to create nuclear weapons for moral reasons.

I think 9/11 was very different in that the perpetrators were intelligence agents (likely contract agents) and the colloborators were mainly military, all of whom were well versed in the requirements of their chosen field, such as op-sec and the need to keep secrets, and not to ask questions which you did not need answers to in order to carry out your orders.

The idea that our own government would take down the World Trade Center and blame it on desert Muslim tribes to justify an illegal war is no less ridiculous that the idea of an atomic bomb in the early 1940s.

Hell, who remembers the eyewitnesses who saw men stringing explosives under the Murrah building the evening before it was demolished. Why would the government ever lie about it in the first place? Ridiculous.

Well, minus the whole ‘dessert Muslim tribes’ already bombing the building once almost a decade earlier.

I’m not a huge fan of the 9/11 conspiracies. I think there was a coverup, but it was over the government having information it was going to happen and ... let it. Failing on something like that would have led to a mass loss of faith in the US globally.

I haven’t heard a satisfactory explanation behind Building 7 thought. The official story is plausible but requires too many things to go wrong all at once - like a final destination scene.

Let us not forget that the first WTC bombing was conducted with explicit encourage, advice, instruction, and equipment from the FBI. All of which came out in court. How terribly awkward.

Well, you should take a look at Corbett's 9/11 Trillions and see if that sways you any.

What will your reaction be when it is revealed that some agents inside the intelligence and homeland security were in bed with the same people who are supporting Trump and the Russians?

I guess my reaction would be joy? I don't know - who the fuck cares if we're friendly with other nations? If Russia is working with the active gov't, then that would mean a lesser chance of global nuclear annihilation, so yay! Do you think it would be a problem if we found out UK was working inside intelligence of the US? I guess I don't have a competitive mindset against all other nations - I want us to work together for the greater good. You're misreading me if you think I'm anything but an extreme pacifist.

BUT I don't really see how you answered anything with relation to this thread.

Sure tell us how Russia is making things better for the people in his own Russian Federation and how that is going to benefit anyone in the U.S. except Trump's debt?

Frankly I would prefer to be, "under the guidance," of the EU than Putin's Russian Federation.

But I don't read the Russian fairy tales that are being pushed by the U.S. conspirators who are all partnered with Russia.

Do you honestly consider Russia to be a greater threat to world peace than the US? You can't possibly...

The Iraq war is not equivalent to the current theft of the U.S. Government by people within this nation cooperating with a nation hostile to the U.S.

Sorry if you can't see the difference.

You are missing the point, UK and US cooperated for the Iraq war to privatize the Iraq oil and enrich and protect U.S. and NATO allies billionaires.

Now a hostile nation intends to hand over our own billionaires to the Russians. Where is your patriotism?

OK, it was however the topic of the thread you decided to reply to. And my god if you're suggesting that the magnitude of killing a million+ civilians in an illegal war is somehow lesser than the DNC's dirty laundry getting aired, well I believe your moral compass needs some calibration.

Where's my patriotism? Do you know what sub you're in? I have no fucking allegiance to this or any country - I love people of various nations, but I detest the power structures that form our society. Jingoism is a disease.

The CIA directly contributed to the DNI report that said there was high confidence of chemical weapons and nuclear weapon capabilities.

but it was all of them.

Do you have a link for that? Because to my memory it wasn't the CIA - it was a few individual agents who didn't speak for the agency, who Cheney hand picked to come in and give their report.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/259216899/Iraq-October-2002-NIE-on-WMDs-unedacted-version

https://i.imgur.com/dlJJNhm.png https://i.imgur.com/Qd1gXB9.png

It's going to be a bit before I have time to re-read that again and pull quotes. Thanks!

The thing is, it's not just the CIA. All of our closest allies are saying the same thing, many of whom were in direct opposition to things like the Iraq war. It's not the CIA word vs Trump/Putin, it's all of our allies and the West's entire intelligence community vs Trump/Putin.

Truth is not democratic in nature. I can't believe this has to be said here in /r/conspiracy. Consensus does not determine truth.

And you know the truth? All else being equal/without access to or understanding of the material evidence, I’m more likely to believe two people telling me something than the single person saying the opposite. But that’s actually besides the point because it more comes down to the fact that I trust most EU governments and even our own more than Russia.

No, I don't know the truth, but I am quite certain that whatever the truth actually is, the CIA will not be telling it.

I don't trust Russia, either. And the EU governments are generally owned rank-and-file by Soros, so I trust them to follow his commands which may or may not be beneficial to America.

Truth is hard to come by. People should be a little more skeptical, especially of voices that have lied many times.

So, do what? Believe nothing? Disengage? Let the powerful do what they will because, eh, what can you do? Do the thing that Russians have done in Russia under state media?

This attitude is exactly the attitude that authoritarian state propaganda wants people to have. You cant trust anybody, dont worry about it, drink your vodka and shut the fuck up.

You do whatever you want, I can't tell you how to live your life.

For myself I quit an easy lucrative IT career and went and did something more practical to help wake people up. That's the only way I'd find peace, otherwise I'd be burning out on cocaine and hookers in Tijuana and hoping a heart attack gets me before I get old.

you mean the new world order is well organized?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MADYzQstpsU

The term world order just means the way in which nations, or groups of people, relate to each other on a global scale. We have a current world order, past world orders, and probably a new one eventually. We're never not living in some sort, however you'd like to categorize it. For my part a world order where we're all at peace as Bush 1 spoke of sounds great.

I love how people are somehow arguing that American intelligence organizations are incompetent despite setting up the American empire lol

Because the evidence supports what they're saying. And because this logic doesn't actually get us anywhere useful since it also applies to Putin and the Russian state.

No, your point is to deflect and obfuscate, not to merely call for caution.

what makes this “Russian” evidence correct?

I don't really understand the question to be honest. We have Don Jr.'s emails regarding the Trump Tower meeting. We have Manafort emailing Konstantin Kilimnik to offer private campaign briefings to Russian oligarchs in order to "get whole" on the millions he owes them. We have high ranking GOP officials caught on tape blaming the Russians for the DNC hack and speculating that Putin owns Trump six months before the USIC presented their conclusion to Congress.

So exactly what are you asking?

Not sure what that means, but I'd prefer you to address what I have to say here.

Is this thread branded content?

So yes, starting this discussion is an attempt to promote your podcast. Good to know.

Fair enough, but I do think it is kind of over the line to say 'love to respond to your reddit response to my reddit thread, but on my podcast!'

No I meant it crosses the line between sensible promotion and essentially being an annoying teaser ad.

"For my response to these questions, tune in and like, rate, and subscribe!"

We are all here to have a discussion, Im not going to get a teaser here then continue the discussion somewhere else

Yes

What time/zone?

What time?

We also have Craig Murray stating in no uncertain terms that the data was "leaked" by a disgruntled DNC employee. We have Julian Assange heavily hinting at the same... I will keep an open mind, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. WL have a long track record of telling the truth - intel community has a long track record of telling lies to manufacture consent.

Murray is a close associate of Assange. Neither of them has provided any evidence for their claim, which we all know they'd be eager to if they could. But this is just one more attempt to deflect and obfuscate.

You asked me what makes this Russian evidence correct. I told you. Now you address what I had to say. That's how an honest discussion works.

Wait - what specifically do you want me to address? And how did you refute the established fact that IC lies as a matter of business? I consider both Murray and Assange to be extremely trustworthy - like Glenn Greenwald-level trustworthy, at least until they've been shown to have lied. It's pretty clear JA preferred someone other than HRC who apparently called for his assassination, but that's his right. I'm not sure what you have besides insinuation to support that he's lied about anything.

To be clear, I have no doubt that DT and others in his corrupt cabinet have engaged in all manner of illegal activity. BUT I personally will not accept information from the FBI or any intel agency as fact without extraordinary evidence. I recall the lead up to the first Gulf War - they will go to any lengths to achieve a foreign relations objective, which is usually war.

what specifically do you want me to address?

" We have Don Jr.'s emails regarding the Trump Tower meeting. We have Manafort emailing Konstantin Kilimnik to offer private campaign briefings to Russian oligarchs in order to "get whole" on the millions he owes them. We have high ranking GOP officials caught on tape blaming the Russians for the DNC hack and speculating that Putin owns Trump six months before the USIC presented their conclusion to Congress."

And how did you refute the established fact that IC lies as a matter of business

I didn't. The whole point is you don't need to trust the IC to conclude their telling the truth here.

How is any of that germane to the question of source for Wikileaks? As far as we know, the only people that know where the data came from are personnel at WL, Craig Murray, and the actual source. The rest is conjecture. We have no evidence. The NSA collects virtually all Internet communications - where is the smoking gun from them? I've said it many times that I will have an open mind, but I find it hard to doubt the people I KNOW have been trustworthy for a decade vs. the people I have known to be untrustworthy. I don't have a horse in this race - I hate both parties, but again - I'm willing to keep an open mind if evidence is shared.

How is any of that germane to the question of source for Wikileaks?

It's not. You asked what I was expecting you to address. There's your answer.

Now exactly what WikiLeaks

Eh, you're being transparent I'm afraid. You have a lot of faith in our gov't and its institutions it seems. That's great - I really hope they live up to your expectations. I really hope I'm a cynical and wrong old fucker.

You have not provided proof. You have provided speculation. Your evidence is no more sound than Assange's statements, and frankly Assange has a better track record for telling the truth.

Specifically what do you find weak or unconvincing about the evidence I mentioned?

All of what you said was true, but do you really think that pure conjecture from GOP personnel is convincing? They have no evidence on which to base those statements, after all.

Paul Manafort is a shithead, his statements seem to me to be ultimately selfish in intent at worst. If you consider his background, his statements are frankly more indicative of a much wider sort of collusion than simply Trump<->Russia.

do you really think that pure conjecture from GOP personnel is convincing?

When taken along with everyone else, absolutely. Especially given the very serious "no leaks, keep this in the family" tone Ryan struck to end the discussion.

They have no evidence on which to base those statements, after all.

You base claim this on...?

Manafort's statements are frankly more indicative of a much wider sort of collusion than simply Trump<->Russia.

Specifically which statements indicate that?

Plenty of people thought the Iraq evidence was a slam dunk.

Plenty of people in Bush's cabinet, sure, but what about the broader intelligence community? It's been discussed to death in the past days, but attempting to draw a parallel between flat out invented "evidence" (that wasn't endorsed by the IC) back in 2003 and the situation with cyberattacks today is obfuscation at best and deliberate misinformation at worst.

I wonder why the content of said server/servers are never ever discussed only that "the Russians did it. Never the fact that it wasn't the State Department's server that got hacked. If HRC would've been using the State Department servers like she was obligated to use than the Russians or whoever hacked or leaked the content would have nothing. For the DNC servers, why was their security so easily defeated,they obviously had the coffers of cash to have a highly secured server along with better protocols to avoid basic phishing scams. This is like going through your girls phone and discovering evidence of unfaithfulness, but now you're the bad guy for not trusting her. But you obviously shouldn't of been trusting her in the first place.

I wonder why the content of said server/servers are never ever discussed only that "the Russians did it".

The contents of the stolen data has been discussed at length, as has Clinton's culpability for using a private server. What planet do you live on?

Planet Hillary. Gotta keep the spotlight on Hillary. Never enough news about Hillary, evil Hillary​ is the most evil of them all so everything Putin and Trump ​did to defeat Hillary​ ​is good.

HRC's private server was never hacked.

That's not exactly true... the FBI report concluded that it could have been hacked, but there was no evidence to prove that was the case. And I think there was mention of unsecured communications used on mobile devices during a trip to China as well.

When it comes to Russian election meddling, i dont believe intelligence agencies one bit. No one should. We should all honestly just trust the Trump administration on this one.

I trust Donald Trump Jr. when he told us he tried to collude with Russia to get stolen emails. I trust Mike Flynn when he admitted to holding secret meeting with the Russians and then lying about it. I believe Donald Trump when he told me he fired James Comey to take the heat off the Russia investigation.

Everyone else should do the same. Eff the intelligence agencies, just trust what Trump's team is telling us directly.

The evidence only points one direction, and it is only picking up momentum. Every attempt at deflection from the parties implicated has fallen completely flat on its partisan face.

Our minds are sculpted by the narratives we hear. You clearly are only hearing one narrative. You should get out more.

No I listen to the other narratives. They constantly bring up the same stuff, but its all dishonest and debunked. Leak not a hack? bullshit

I havent seen another credible explanation. The people implicated are crumbling, and the president made it painfully obvious where his loyalties lie this past week

The point stands. The sensation you feel about the other side crumbling in the wreckage of their lives while your own side triumphs has been constant for the past two years? That edge-of-your-seat sensation is carefully crafted for you.

Trump brought reality TV to reality. It's the greatest show on Earth with a new season every month.

I guarantee you 100% that the other side feels exactly the same as you and has all the evidence and facts to back it up. Plus the same overwhelming moral superiority to ensure that the right side must win.

How can I guarantee this? Because I am the other side. Trust me, the narrative is seamless so long as you don't look too closely. Both narratives.

You need to listen to Fox or Alex Jones long enough to find something you agree with. Then you will have started to actually broaden your horizons.

Or RT. Or Al-Jazeera. If all you see is lies, you are blinded by your chosen narratives.

The point stands. The sensation you feel about the other side crumbling in the wreckage of their lives while your own side triumphs has been constant for the past two years?

umm The democrats crumbled in 2016 and didnt have a majority even when they had the white house...

Your side isn't predicting reality, my side is. At some point, you'll realize that maybe the people who PROMISED us that Trump would never win are not necessarily looking at the world with open eyes.

What's your side again? And could you define mine?

I don't think predicting a trump win or loss is a big deal. A 1/3 chance by 538

Also, he won by less than 80k votes across 3 states and lost the popular vote.

welp

All the same people predicted he would never even come close to winning the GOP primary, too. Remember that? Even after he won the primary, nobody believed he would even last until the general election. Then he won the election.

Once he won the election, people thought he would be impeached within the month. Didn't happen.

Impeached within the first year. Didn't happen.

There's a pattern here.

So what?

So maybe you should consider that the idea that Trump is facing imminent demise is no more accurate now than it was two full years ago.

I think a lot has been confirmed. These are slow processes. Watergate took a bit

Narratives?? In numerous instances they've told us-- literally right to our faces out of their own mouths. Should we not believe our eyes and ears as well??

I think it's a combination of tribalism and astroturfing... anyway, I appreciate you posting OP - it's good to know that some of us remember the bullshit the global intel community gets up to. If they're saying it, it's a lie. That's my default stance until extraordinary evidence is provided. That's the least they can do before we march into another cold war with a nuclear power. It's not just the US either - UK is pretty fucked up too.

Oh yeah remember that time the CIA had a positive impact on a large portion of the population? That’s great they stopped a terror attack that could of hurt like .000001% of the population.

Why should we Trust Donald Trump now? I'm still going to take a consensus of multiple people with different political alliances than I am one habitual liar saying I didn't do it and acting guilty as hell the whole time

Where did anyone say to trust DT? The post is about how it would be foolish to blindly trust the IC given their track record. It's fair to say it would also be insane to trust DT given his track record with the truth.

Because we all know this post was made it regards to the intelligence agencies finding on Russia interference and Trump says they're wrong and siding with Putin

The point is to be skeptical - especially when the stakes are another cold war which TPTB have every motivation for wanting...

Are you skeptical of the President's weak denials? Are you skeptical of Putin's wink wink denials?

I'm skeptical of my own existence.

Are you skeptical of intelligence agencies?

Yes, but Im twice as skeptical of what the Kremlin tells me.

I'm also less skeptical of intel agencies when there is international agreement with our allies, the actions of the president/administration, and investigative reporting all indicate the same thing.

The ONLY people denying this are those that are implicated. Weird. You know they say if you ask, every person in prison is innocent.

I'm also less skeptical of intel agencies when there is international agreement with our allies

like when Blair, Bush and jackboot john howard all agreed there where WMD in Iraq and "we" needed to invade Iraq (x2)?! THAT sort of international agreement?

Many Aussies still want to see John Howard tried for war crimes over that invasion.

Not to mention international consensus. Really the dutch intel agencies are now deep state? Starting to sound like a generic bogeyman to give cover to actual wrong doing.

I swear people's bullshit detectors are very miscalibrated if they want to believe Donald Trump or Vladimir Putin over literally anybody else.

No doubt.

Because they aren't ex kgb

We shouldn't. Mueller is viewed as an impartial god of justice, despite coming from the Bush administration, where everyone is viewed as a war criminal (but not Mueller, for some reason).

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/anthrax-files/

Check this PBS doc about how Mueller used the FBI to bully two innocent men, one of which committed suicide. By the way, Mueller was one of the defendants named in a suit in 2015 for withholding exculpatory evidence that would have 1) embarrassed and disgraced the FBI and 2) would have proved Ivins' innocence.

I have no doubt that at the very least there is money laundering/tax fraud in the tens or even hundreds of millions going on with some of Trump's people. But I also have no doubt that no one, whether it's Trump or the FBI, should be trusted.

If you don’t think Bezos is spying on you, sir, you’re crazy. He’s the richest man in the world. He hates your guts! The head of the CIA said six years ago, ‘we’re going to listen to you over your appliances.’ They can listen over light bulbs. Yes, through the new light bulbs. They can listen through anything. It’s all resonance. And it’s all with sensors bouncing back up — these light bulbs have special sensors in them!

They’ve got lasers on your windows listening. They’ve got people inside they’re paying off. They’re listening over the phones. They’re listening over the apps. They’ve got stuff over the smart TVs they can break into!!! Ahh! YOU GOTTA WARN PEOPLE!

idiots putting a camera in the lounge and now, (siri, etc), a microphone. l refused to have Kineckt in my home for that same reason, (complete with facial recognition), why WOULD you? shit we may as all well be living in glass houses with that.

1. non-stop media talking heads. there is no escape from their narrative, it's everywhere. repetition is the oldest trick in the propaganda book, but it's working.

2. bandwagoners hate people for disagreeing with them and creates a false dichotomy in their minds. disagreeing with the narrative makes one a nazi.

3. crowd psychology literally makes people dumber. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowd_manipulation

IMO it makes absolutely no sense to ramp up tensions with the only other country to have a similar sized nuclear arsenal whether or not they did it.

Ahh yes, the ole soviet era talking point is back. The only alternatives are: suck up to Moscow or we go to war with Russia To in any way thwart’s Russia’s global desires means you want nuclear war. It’s an appeasement talking point.

To in any way thwart’s Russia’s global desires

always laugh when l see this, that and China expansionism into the south CHINA sea, Russia has how many military bases in how many countries, and america has how many? There is only ONE country that l see with "global desires" that SERIOUSLY need curtailing, America, take your bat and ball and gtfo of Australia... and the other 176 countries y'all have "invaded" sorry, "liberated" umm, are "protecting"?

Please be my Dolores Cannon and channel my murder to bring me justice.

what I want to know is why every single fucking person on CNN right now screaming for World War 3 is either in the CIA or was at one point in the CIA. Anderson Coooer's monologues are getting increasingly melodramatic. And now you have Comey just straight up telling people to vote Democrat? Not independent, not a plea for voters to reconsider voting Republican. No, there is no attempt to now to hide their bias now.

Like what the fuck, people. Just a few months ago we were all clamoring on the about how the CIA and FBI were literally working together to spy on Trump and his campaign. The Obama administration knew what they were doing when they expanded the intelligence community and started unmasking US citizens.

https://youtu.be/1fWNZDvOgR4

And now everyone's acting surprised when Trump expresses some skepticism against the US intelligence community????

When he's reaching out to our "enemies" and talking about peace.

The issue is he is simultaneously dismantling treaties with our allies.

He is literally doing exactly what an enemy of this country would want.

The thing with the intelligence agencies along with other big agencies is that they are self perpetuating. Those with a job in them want job security, not national security. This is why there are many cover ups and political bias. In the end it's all about a job and money.

Same thing happens in big companies/corporation top heavy in management. A bureaucracy or those with administrative function have their own self interest in mind. This same culture is what perpetuated the corruption that was down fall of the likes of Enron, World Com or the old Kmart with executives covering up and perpetuating crap-why because it was about their job in the end.

I would not trust the intelligence community.

I think people are supporting MSM in this sub for reasons other than grass roots.

> Shareblue Media is an American media company. We tell real-world stories to give voice to the heroes fighting for American values. We are a rapidly growing community — reaching over 140 million people per month across platforms — that is optimistic, honest, and unafraid.

In this thread: people who don't understand that you can distrust the US intelligence community, Trump, and Putin all at the same time.

Thank you, and thank you for the original post; a lot of great content and links you marshalled together, and I wish this forum featured more of this kind of content.

Please consider posting on my subreddit thetanster. I’m working to being top fresh Resistance content to this platform like you are.

U.S. intelligence agencies like the CIA and NSA are America's oppressors, and the "Defense" companies are our savage kings.

we should petition Trump to revert the name of the dept of defense to dept of war

Right, that's what it is: the Department of Unnecessary Wars of Aggression.

It’s basically a few mafias fighting and we are all just innocent bystanders, IMO.

The confusing thing is all the people who went from Bush lied people died to the CIA can do no wrong. I'm with OP in that that is just odd.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_(testimony)

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ghwb+incubator

It's psychologically much more comfortable to believe that westerners are the good guys who never do anything wrong and Russkies are pure unadulterated evil just like Rambo, Rocky and CNN showed us. Sometimes I wish I could blue pill myself and go back to this kind of comfortable simplistic worldview.

They surely have a more nuanced opinion than that....

To rephrase what you say in a different way, which I believe is why OP posted this: Just because you distrust the US intelligence community doesn't mean you believe every word Donald Trump says. Someone needs to tell /r/politics.

Could this charade just be MSM’s continued frustration that Hillary didn’t win?

Highly doubtful because thier revenue has skyrocketed. There is a reason they keep portraying Trump, the views. Media like CNN went from being practicaly non existant to having the best numbers in over a decade. The last thing MSM wants is Trump to go away.

You can see this on the other side with Hillary Clinton. Look at the hits, or even reddit posts mentioning her. It's primary conservative media. During the Hillary book release, Conspiracy had one post, Bernie's sub had one post, Hillary's sub had one post. The_Donald had 13 posts, with many posts on all the right leaning subreddits.

These people are huge revenue generators and the media is having a viewership golden age.

Good point. These are interesting times, to say the least.

Trust no one.

Thank you! I’m working hard to create a space for the Truth on this platform.

Nothing worth preserving has not first been restored. If you care for Trump, fight for him!

Its fine for citizens to distrust the intelligence agencies. However, it is not for the president.

If the president wants to know what countries intelligence and military forces are doing, who can he go to for that info?

Yeah, if only JFK had trusted the CIA.

who can he go to for that info?

hopefully somebody who does not have a conflict of interest because they are so buddy, buddy with the MIC and know at the end of their intelligence careers they are golden parachuting into board seats in that same MIC. Good luck finding that man, the one who puts honour, integrety and country before personal gain.

Yes hopefully. I also worry that the military is inherently incentivized to use military force to solve every issue, (when youre a hammer, etc)

But thats not an issue if you have a wise, principled leader who second guesses the military leaders.

Instead we have a guy who is throwing himself a military parade like we are in North Korea.

But my point still stands: If you want to know what other countries are up to, you cant rely on Fox news or breitbart or asking Putin. You need to rely on your eyes and ears in the intelligence services.

Your an idiot if you do trust known evil in your own country. Way Bigger Threat http://wariscrime.com/new/the-13-most-evil-us-government-human-experiments/

back in the early 1980's for CBW training we recuits were put in a room, CS gas was pumped in and our masks were ripped off where we had to recite name, rank, serial number, eye colour and mothers name, you were held in place whilst you did this then were allowed to "escape" from the room *shrug* makes getting pepper sprayed pleasant after experiencing that..(Aussie army btw), you had to go back in for round 2, this was run in, remove mask from container, put on mask, evacuate gas from mask. fun, fun, fun.

Team A vs. Team B. You must pick a side.

I’m sure as hell not going to trust the Russians. I’m also not going to trust our government

I trust US intelligence more than Moscow. I can suspect that my US government is not always telling the truth, but I KNOW that the Russians are NEVER telling the truth.

Also it was the Republican controlled government that lied to us and got us involved in the shitshow that is the ongoing War On Terror. Why would Republicans tell the truth about anything?

What about the intelligence agencies outside the US? What about foreign government officials and leaders of countries that have been our allies? What does it mean when the entire globe agrees on something except for Trump and Putin? I can't believe I'm asking this question.

What does it mean when the entire globe agrees on something except for Trump and Putin

l would ask the Marshall regime the same thing

pretty much the entire planet no longer believes cannabis is the same as heroin or cocaine, except MY government.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-02/sa-government-to-quadruple-cannabis-fines/9930344

this is like 2 weeks old...

Because the intelligence agents working in the media told us to!

Mossad and its American associates are the obvious culprits behind 9/11. Who benefits from the crime? The attacks against the twin towers started at 8:45 a.m. and four flights are diverted from their assigned air space and no air traffic controller sounds the alarm. And no Air Force jets scramble until 10 a.m. That also smacks of a small scale Air Force rebellion, a coup against the Pentagon perhaps? Radars are jammed, transponders fail. No IFF -- friend or foe identification -- challenge. Even in Pakistan, if there is no response to IFF, jets are instantly scrambled and the aircraft is shot down with no further questions asked. This was clearly an inside job. Bush was afraid and rushed to the shelter of a nuclear bunker. He clearly feared a nuclear situation. Who could that have been? Will that also be hushed up in the investigation, like the Warren report after the Kennedy assassination?

The whole world already knows this. This is a simple restatement of what everybody already knows.

Everywhere except in America, where Jewish dominated media envelops everyone in a poisoned darkness, everybody knows that Jewish kingpins pulled off 9/11 as an excuse for making war on every obstacle to their world financial hegemony, and killing as many non-Jews as possible in the process to further consolidate their domination of the whole world.

This widening war on the Islamic world, already responsible for millions of unnecessary deaths, is a direct result of the 9/11 hoax, everything based on false spin concocted by Jewish strategists not for U.S. best interests, but for the demonic master plan of the Jewish Sanhedrin, which rules the Jewish moneymen who buy the presidents and the generals, to kill or enslave the rest of the world. They control you, whether you want to admit or not. They control your bank account. And they make you support their insane war program by all this wall-to-wall patriotic spin.

The totally Jewish-controlled U.S. media have long ago suspended their journalistic capabilities in favor of blatant cheerleading about their favorite subject - Muslim terrorists. Every day they urge you to kill them. If there ever was a systemic hate crime, this is it.

Yet, as the infamous list of the 19 hijackers was released by the FBI two days after the infamous event, and except for two feeble-minded patsies, no other perpetrator has ever been arrested for the greatest crime in American history, what kind of conclusions are we to draw from the fact that all of the people who were in charge of America when this dark day happened, instead of being fired for incompetence, were promoted and allowed to continue their criminal activity?

What does all this say about the American mind?

It is not functioning, thanks to the poisoned blanket of U.S. media, and a deliberately twisted educational system that has produced killer Jewish robots instead of fully invested philosophically clean humans.

Every cop in the world should be brought up on charges of willful obstruction of justice for not blowing the whistle on President George Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney, and all their Jewish handlers - in the White House, in the Congress, in the media, and most especially in the banks) for their stunningly criminal behavior in both lying about the events and implementing a totally illegal coverup of the crime scenes.

But the Jewish judges atop the U.S. legal system said it was all OK, and the media, led by the New York Times and CNN, never mentioned all those Jewish fingerprints visible in the pyroclastic dust covering the disintegrated corpses in the rubble of the Twin Towers.

In an interview only a mere weeks after 9/11, Hamid Gul - former head of Pakistani intelligence (ISI) from 1987-1989 - told Arnaud de Borchgrave, United Press International, of who he thinks was behind the attacks. Here are a few exceprts from the transcript:

De Borchgrave: So who did Black Sept. 11?

Gul: Mossad and its accomplices. The U.S. spends $40 billion a year on its 11 intelligence agencies. That's $400 billion in 10 years. Yet the Bush Administration says it was taken by surprise. I don't believe it. Within 10 minutes of the second twin tower being hit in the World Trade Center CNN said Osama bin Laden had done it. That was a planned piece of disinformation by the real perpetrators. It created an instant mindset and put public opinion into a trance, which prevented even intelligent people from thinking for themselves.

https://www.upi.com/UPI-interview-with-Hamid-Gul/60031280349846/

Immediately after the attacks Bin Laden was interviewed by Pakistani newspaper Ummat. When asked if he was involved in the attacks he stated:

"I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle."

He went on to say:

"In the same way, whether it is President Bush or any other U.S. President, they cannot bring Israel to justice for its human rights abuses or to hold it accountable for such crimes. What is this? Is it not that there exists a government within the government in the United States? That secret government must be asked as to who carried out the attacks."

He further goes on to state:

"I have already said that we are not hostile to the United States. We are against the [U.S. Government] system, which makes other nations slaves of the United States, or forces them to mortgage their political and economic freedom. This system is totally in the control of the American Jews, whose first priority is Israel, not the United States. It is clear that the American people are themselves the slaves of the Jews and are forced to live according to the principles and laws laid down by them. So the punishment should reach Israel. In fact, it is Israel, which is giving a blood bath to innocent Muslims and the U.S. is not uttering a single word."

You know all this is true. You know you are living a lie every day, by accepting what the TV robots tell you is true.

Yet you wring your hands and kvetch that you don't know what to do, when in fact you do. You just don't have the courage to do it, because you're a robotized American dreckdroid, who goes out and kills other people for reasons simply because you have been ordered to by those who control you. Despicable. You are despicable, because you don't have the courage to say what you clearly know, even though you are about to lose everything you ever loved because of your failure to say what you know and confront the beast. And now it's too big to stop.

Tip: If you use RES, use threads like this to tag and summarily ignore the future posts of any user that expresses blind, dumb faith in spooks because they're "our guys" and that doubting the CIA means you're not a "patriot."

Dumb as shit astroturfers who don't have the IQ to even be subtle about it.

Nobody has ever explained about why, if the DNC server's were hacked, why the FBI was refused access to those servers.

It also makes one wonder about Wasserman-Schultz's thought process in hiring the Pakistani IT guy who had ties to foreign intelligence and kept him on the payroll until he fled the country.

I mean if Trump would just release his tax returns and show how much money he owes and to who I would feel a lot less suspicious, I'll say that.

What if Trump does owe money to Russian banks? What of the CIA NSA FBI setup about Russian collusion was constructed around things they already knew, in other words what if they crafted the Russian narrative because Trump had financial connections to Russia? What of those connections we're completely business and had nothing to do with collusion and now a bunch of crafty Intel hounds have build such a fiction up around a grain of Truth that nobody would know what was true or false even if Trump did release his taxes.

It's turtles all the way down man.

Trump is now basically using government power to make himself richer, much the same as Putin. I don't believe there are many good people in this whole scenario, period.

much the same as Putin

Interesting you left out Pelosi, Bernie Sanders, Schumer, Waters etc etc.

The difference is that Trump has legitimate businesses and I've seen zero proof that he is using the government to make himself richer, those names you left off that I mentioned above have zero legitimate means to be worth 40 million dollars. Fucking interesting.

mad maxine and her multi million dollar mansion, on a government sallary.. IRS audit required STAT!!

If you can't see how crazy it would be for a US Pres. to be heavily indebted to its #1 enemy(especially DT and his love of money/fear of losing it) and what a gigantic conflict of interest that is--well I just don't know what to say.

I guess you think Washington and Franklin and Jefferson etc... would just laugh it off?? No biggie bro

Do DT/Putin strike you as the kind of guys who have the integrity to draw the line at just business? Really?

He won the fucking election, it's over. He is POTUS now.

He doesn't respect you or his own supporters enough to do anything like that.

The intelligence is probably broadly true because the motives and players seem to line up. This isn’t like WMD. We can see Trump talking like a hostage take and selling us out to Putin for ourselves.

How are we being sold out to Russia?

I'm going to say it something to do with the fact that the "Resist" movement goes against everything Trump says. He says he doesn't trust U.S. intelligence agencies, so they're going to support the intelligence agencies. They'll oppose anything he says, anything!

You should have stopped having blind faith in their motives, goals and methods about, uh, 50 years ago.

I think we should doubt all sources and always ask for evidence.

Evidence should be the only thing that guides our beliefs.

So really, the question is, do you trust the FBI's evidence?

The intelligence agency network, with the CIA at the head, is currently the most dangerous organization of murderous, psychopathic humans on the planet. They are terrorists in the truest sense of the word.
Unfortunately they've obtained so much power that is doesn't matter whether we trust them or not. There not a single soul on the planet with both the courage and the ability to shut them down.

67% upvoted. Wtf is wrong with these people??? That's rhetorical, we know it's all narrative pushing.

As Nas describes it in his latest song "Everything",

Inclusion is a hell of a drug.

In this case, tribalism.

For me, part of it is that certain facts are in front of us. The CIA can concoct information about a foreign country's weapon program, and I have know way of verifying. But I do know that there are trolls promoting Trumpism, and I can therefore find the Russia theory credible. Also, I distinguish between the justice department, which I certainly believe lies and hides things, and the CIA and Dept of Defense, which by nature are covert, shrouded in secrecy, and use deception as a fundamental premise of their operations. An indictment publicly filed by the DOJ is different to me, and more credible, than a CIA or DOD report.

The agencies do shady shit all the time but they also are aware that russia is an entity that for the past few decades has worked against us in becoming a super power. Econimcally and geographically they are a lot weaker than us and have to use techniques like sewing social decay, which we know they intend to do, in our country. So, the intelligence agencies aren't perfect, in my eyes pretty corrupt, but that doesn't mean that theres not the possibility that russia has meddled in our elections and they they've called it out. Question is, why is trump siding with putin so immediately?

I just love picturing a room full of Russian grandmothers sitting around in a circle and sewing social decay.

they are the true hackers

russia is an entity that for the past few decades has worked against us in becoming a super power.

gee,golly, why would they do that.. l mean, just because America drew up plans on the eve of the end of WW2 to nuke the living crap out of Russia, their erstwile ALLY, that is no reason for all this hate surely??!!

Your sarcasm is annoying because I never painted America to be good initially in this, I wish after WWII we had tried peace but the british insisted not to and we created NATO, but as well they are currently a huge power combatting with us for resources.

Any organization that can posion an entire town without repercussion should not be trusted.

The NSA encourages weak cryptography which is to their advantage, but only if they control the secret

I'm sure there are good fbi guys, but sometimes it's hard to tell

A cogent analysis would try to determine why US intelligence agencies acted in the ways listed above. The obvious, non-specific answer is that those agencies have interests that diverge from those of the American public as a whole. I would argue that in this case, identifying and preventing foreign interference in our elections, their interests are similar to those of the American public.

Lest we become sloppy in our thinking, we should never assume in all cases that those agencies have identical interests (CIA interests vs. NSA interests) and we should never forget that individuals within those agencies might have interests that diverge from the broader interests of the agencies that they work.

OP's post is kind-of bullshit. The IC's work for the American people to best inform the elected officials (and their appointees) on complex decisions. That's it. Iraq is a perfect example of this and how it can be manipulated. Cheney and Powell wanted a war and they had the IC lie about WMD's to manufacture one. As another user pointed out in the thread: "they [IC] admitted there wasn’t enough evidence, though concluded it was likely anyway."

More evidence is in a book called Blowing My Cover. It's a pretty good memoir written by a CIA case officer (they recruit spies or what are actually called assets). The book ends around the time Cheney and Powell were trying to manufacture the war and the writer talks about how disillusioned some of the CIA employees were about the whole thing and even quotes a superior saying something along the lines of "Washington wants a war in Iraq."

The CIA subverting governments and running drugs is, well, exactly what it's purpose is and it's the CIA acting on behalf of the elected officials. That is, those officials have to decide to allow the CIA to do those things (same for any IC). That's how the chain of command works in the government. For example, the CIA didn't give the go ahead on the UBL mission, the POTUS did. The CIA doesn't even have these kinds of resources in the first place. The best thing they have is SAD/SOG but that's absolutely nowhere near the virtually limitless resources of the US military.

Now let's talk about the torture. What people need to understand is the American people were pretty okay with torture up until the middle 2000's. So yeah, the CIA tortured people. When the politics changed, so did the CIA - once again demonstrating how they work for the American people (through the elected officials).

The FBI is probably a little worse mainly because they work domestically (the CIA can't). This gives them a little more leeway. They also aren't only an intelligence organization (the CIA is). As for missing attacks such as 1993 and 9/11 - that sucks. But you can actually read all about how that stuff happened in the first place and it's mostly do to infighting, management mistakes, and all the hoops that need to be jumped through with agencies sharing intelligence among each other.

The NSA is probably the worst but you have to keep in mind that, once again, they're acting on behalf of our elected officials. That's where ALL of this begins. The IC is just a tool and the elected officials are the ones that are ultimately making the decisions. People that work in the IC don't make much money and are doing so mostly because it can be really cool and they have a deep sense of patriotism for the American people. They have little to gain from spying on the American people or allowing attacks to happen, but they might be directed to do so (legally because, once again, our elected officials) or by human error (which they are just as capable as anybody else of making).

mainly because they work internationally and not domestically and are thus acting outside of American law.

Gary Webb would dispute that if he hadn't been shot twice in the back of the head in a botched suicide, (l read somewhere it was 7 odd shots with 4 and 5 being the "fatal shots"), after he outed the CIA for drug running within the USA.

great docco about it. "shoot the messenger"

Everyone always brings him up. Why doesn't anyone ever blame the Contras? Webb fucked with their income so they offed him.

CIA and long history of unethical human experimentation

Just about the entirety of the examples all started by the CIA. You can find it under the nearly last heading of “legal, academic and professional policy.”

But hey, who doesn’t love the squeaky clean CIA that doesn’t operate domestically? Lol!! I’m sure the CIA has stopped all those programs, right?History never repeats itself as I’m sure programs like that could certainly never take place these days!

Also, we’re seeing pretty good evidence in front the American people’s lying eyes with the CIA doing their part, trying to topple and pull a coup domestically on our democratically elected POTUS or things like Peter Strzok being an FBI and CIA at the same time...or, you know, that time the CIA acted domestically and assassinated JFK...

Non-Mobile link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentation_in_the_United_States

^{HelperBot v1.1 /r/HelperBot_ I am a bot. Please message /u/swim1929 with any feedback and/or hate. Counter: 202279}

Just about the entirety of the examples were all CIA started and backed. You can find it under the nearly last heading of “legal, academic and professional policy.”

..Who else would it be started by? Do you think elected officials have the capacity to..i don't even honestly know what you could possibly be thinking the alternative is..create their own organizations on a whim to do shit like this?

But hey, who doesn’t love the squeaky clean CIA that doesn’t operate domestically? Lol!! I’m sure the CIA has stopped all those programs, right?History never repeats itself as I’m sure programs like that could certainly never take place these days!

What programs? MKULTRA? Can you be specific?

Also, we’re seeing pretty good evidence in front the American people’s lying eyes with the CIA doing their part, trying to topple and pull a coup domestically on our democratically elected POTUS or things like Peter Strzok being an FBI and CIA at the same time...or, you know, that time the CIA acted domestically and assassinated JFK...

Oh. You're a Trumpter retard that thinks the IC is out to get him. Don't even bother responding rofl.

People prefer to think in either/or, black/white terms for everything.

I’m depressed vs I’m so happy. I suck vs I love myself. Red team vs blue team.

The idea that EVERYONE in charge is corrupt and untrustworthy in their own ways is terrifying.

Why should we trust US intelligence now?

Because it suits the narrative we're pushing.

We shouldn’t, but currently the ABC intelligence agencies, the commie democrats, and the neocons all have a common enemy, Trump. And because the tv told everyone to hate trump, the brigade has their marching orders. They will do anything to cover up their many crimes, and that means Trump has got to go by any means necessary.

I don't fully trust the IC but I really don't trust the fucking president lol

It's team sports politics.

Because we hate Trump, so it's okay.

Fast and Furious 33

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Gunrunner

Only on this sub in 2018 will this post be downvotes at all. Pathetic.

don't forget this whole thing started when DNC got caught faking data of some hacks that they said came from russia or lucifer hacker or whatever his name was

then nsa report comes out saying they have indeed capability to fake the source of the attack

and then all this russia meddling comes about ... and dnc lawsuit about corrupted campaigns and whatnot ....

and then that hillary shit came about how she was to blame for eveything

but now, hillary is innocent and russia is doing all this?

Operation Mockingbird - control the news outlets for propaganda.

Yesterday my local news TV anchor said the phrase "election hacking" re alleged Russian meddling in US elections

I hardly ever watch TV, but I got the impression he repeated that lie so often that many of his viewers were convinced there was "election hacking"

What??? You mean you have a nuanced opinion that doesn't include knee jerk support for one tribe or another? Citizen though crime detected!

Then what is your take on the supposed Russian interference?

Shill brigades. They want to control what is discussed on this forum and how it is discussed.

We also have Craig Murray stating in no uncertain terms that the data was "leaked" by a disgruntled DNC employee. We have Julian Assange heavily hinting at the same... I will keep an open mind, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. WL have a long track record of telling the truth - intel community has a long track record of telling lies to manufacture consent.

I guess neither is Trump since he´s just repeating the scripts the CIA is now writing for him.

I'll just have to see the evidence for myself and hear the arguments in this hypothetical case, and then I can make my own determination.

I'm going with it was the US IC that interfered and now they are passing the blame.

Do you get downvoted for wanting hard evidence of pizzagate?

hard evidence

I guess you missed the whole Butina affidavit?

A grand jury had to see some evidence in order to indict the 13 Russians it's indicted so far. Maybe we won't think that evidence is very compelling when it comes out at trial, but at this stage in the process you can't say there hasn't been any evidence.

As a Trump supporter, I agree.

debunking the nytimes "fact check" (nytimes lies

How are we being sold out to Russia?

Trump is now basically using government power to make himself richer, much the same as Putin. I don't believe there are many good people in this whole scenario, period.

The why's and what if' are endless...

Why does Trump continue to recognize ISIS as an enemy when its clear that Hillary gave them the arms to create the Islamic State?

Why doesn't Trump help Julian Assange?

Why did Trump take $160 million in financing from George Soros to build the Trump International Hotel and Tower (Chicago)?

Mueller is a known Illuminist with ties to Bush and 9-11. The FBI has increased its reach into ordinary Americans lives since he has been in power and I am shocked that you follow MSM narrative that he is a good guy.

And that reason would be... what exactly? There is no plausible counter-arguement to the mountains of hard evidence pointing to Russia. Have seen the leaked evidence from the NSA Report? Or the leaked WikiLeaks chat logs](https://theintercept.com/2018/02/14/julian-assange-wikileaks-election-clinton-trump/). Or the evidence of Trump Org and WikiLeaks servers communicating with servers in Russia?

much the same as Putin

Interesting you left out Pelosi, Bernie Sanders, Schumer, Waters etc etc.

The difference is that Trump has legitimate businesses and I've seen zero proof that he is using the government to make himself richer, those names you left off that I mentioned above have zero legitimate means to be worth 40 million dollars. Fucking interesting.

Do you have an actual argument or just a list of youtube videos?

why doesn't the EU have its own army?

Thats true, the argument that

the intelligence community would be foolish to air in public its methods and results for gathering that proof

which is why its an easy and obvious target for disinfo agents from foreign intel agencies. But it is a reality of intel gathering.

The important thing is that what they are concluding matches up with what we see and what allied foreign intel agencies have seen and concluded. They have no reason to lie to the american people. They have no loyalty to democrats, which is the main argument from anyone who calls this a 'witchhunt'

Well, minus the whole ‘dessert Muslim tribes’ already bombing the building once almost a decade earlier.

I’m not a huge fan of the 9/11 conspiracies. I think there was a coverup, but it was over the government having information it was going to happen and ... let it. Failing on something like that would have led to a mass loss of faith in the US globally.

I haven’t heard a satisfactory explanation behind Building 7 thought. The official story is plausible but requires too many things to go wrong all at once - like a final destination scene.

what specifically do you want me to address?

" We have Don Jr.'s emails regarding the Trump Tower meeting. We have Manafort emailing Konstantin Kilimnik to offer private campaign briefings to Russian oligarchs in order to "get whole" on the millions he owes them. We have high ranking GOP officials caught on tape blaming the Russians for the DNC hack and speculating that Putin owns Trump six months before the USIC presented their conclusion to Congress."

And how did you refute the established fact that IC lies as a matter of business

I didn't. The whole point is you don't need to trust the IC to conclude their telling the truth here.

FBI director Robert Mueller plans to deliver the HEU sample once he arrives in Moscow Russia

https://i.redd.it/a7lubmuxbi801.jpg

Remember when W said this verbatim to get people to support killing Iraqis? Because I sure as hell do. And what do you know, it was the intelligence communities who LIED about those "weapons of mass destruction" back then too. Why should we trust these people who have lead to the deaths of millions with their lies?

The last non-fascist president America had until Donald Trump....and the jury is still out on Trump.

Well even then, you cannot deny all of the other morally bankrupt incidents that the IC has participated in throughout the years. With no hyperbole, I think a list of their human rights violations could be 6 or 7 digits long with entries. They're basically the American SS bullying dissident individuals and groups into compliance. Remember there are a whole lot of good jobs in the world; these people signed up to imprison, spy, and torture. What does that say about the moral character of these agents?

This is what is so frustrating. I say something about how we need to remain sceptical of US intelligence agencies and people accuse me of being a Russian bot or Trump lover. No you blithering idiots, it's possible to not see the world in absolute black and white.

I think a lot has been confirmed. These are slow processes. Watergate took a bit

If you can't see how crazy it would be for a US Pres. to be heavily indebted to its #1 enemy(especially DT and his love of money/fear of losing it) and what a gigantic conflict of interest that is--well I just don't know what to say.

I guess you think Washington and Franklin and Jefferson etc... would just laugh it off?? No biggie bro

Do DT/Putin strike you as the kind of guys who have the integrity to draw the line at just business? Really?

They lie all the time, they have zero credibility left. They should just pack it up and go home, we have no use for the pathological lies of the Intel agencies

Did you think we forgot about Sandy Hook fake school shooting?

Why did he not complain when Russian “mercenaries “ attacked US special forces?

why does noone complain about the ISRAEL sniper who had like 100 videos of HIS PERSONAL KILLS OF US TROOPS??!

links found here

https://www.blissful-wisdom.com/israeli-snipers-are-shooting-hundreds-of-american-soldiers-in-iraq.html

Why did he not complain when Russian “mercenaries “ attacked US special forces

why did noone complain about the USS LIBERTY??!!

mad maxine and her multi million dollar mansion, on a government sallary.. IRS audit required STAT!!

allied foreign intel agencies

they are ALL in lockstep with their American Masters, remember how the so called allied foreign intel agencies ALL agreed there were WMD in Iraq. John Howard needs to burn in A hell with blair bush and cheney. (better yet, ZERO their bank balances, hit them where they will feel it most)

Who should the president go to if he wants to know what Russian or Chinese agents are up to?

What if he wants to know if China is gearing up militarily? Is he going to go with his gut to know how many tanks are being produced? Is he going to watch Fox news? Is he going to ask Putin?

No. He needs to use his intelligence agencies, there is no other way to know.

No reason to lie?!!!?!?????! LOL!

Have you actually looked into any conspiracies or do you hang out here to shove an agenda down the throat of this sub??