First of all I think calling the proud boys alt right is a stretch. I'm not going to get sucked into defending everything they say or do, but here is a link from the article you posted.

http://oaklandnewsnow.com/index.php/2018/07/23/bay-area-proud-boys-member-calls-zennie-abraham-to-explain-the-proud-boys-says-no-make-westing-meeting/

How is it a stretch? They're right wing and pro white.

Lol. That's a pretty black and white way to paint it. The alt right label is still a left right tool of division.

Well what would you call them then? They seem to generally line up with a lot of far right beliefs to me

jeez man... if your goal is to further divide and simplify a complicated issue, then spot on. How many people reading this now think of that group as Nazi right wing... by simplifying and making it easier to label, it dehumanizes.

So what are they then? To me it looks like an organization that tries to be palatable to a wide group without being openly white supremacist because they know a lot of people would be turned off to that. Part of the initiation requires you to tattoo yourself, another part requires you to be beaten in by other members, and another one requires you to have been in conflict with the enemy. To me this seems like a gang for white people pushing a message, seeing as I'm not a fan of gangs in any form, I generally dont like it. How would you put it?

The are people, and to evaporate the opinions to infer something they are not is ignorant. But go ahead and label complex issues, people with simplistic. Its the same with labeling all people who like trump as backward idoits when they are women, Latinos, blacks, and other.

I would describe Antifa as a mob. Do you think these people are like Antifa? Do they go around lighting garbage on fire, and destrying storefronts wearing masks? If you don't know then were are you willfully spreading this opinion? Many of the patriot groups wer eformed BECAUSE of groups like Antifa. Unless you'd like say we've had a white male alt-right problem going on for many years? The only ones I know of is the KKK and skinheads which everyone detests.

So nothing I said contradicted anything on their own website. The things they ask people to do to join their organization are the same kinds of things gangs ask of their members. How is this particularly complex? They say they are anti white guilt and western chauvinists.

Yes, antifa are a bunch of assholes too. Far less organized but yeah definitely pieces of human trash. If you go out into the streets looking for a fight I don't think very much of you. To me, the proud boys seem like a way for people to dip their feet into the world of white supremacy.

yeah your right, go back to generalizations about people you read about on tbe internet with all your bias and quick judgement without even ttalking with someone or someone that knows the are sumbags.

people on reddit go straight from seeing middle of the road consevarive values being discussed to alt right nazi labels real quick. i just wanted to point out that leaving no room for people to have different opinions, then demonizing them doesn’t belp anyone.

btw anifa is a world organization, in many coointries that disrupt the World bank meetings, tbe WTO, summits and are regularly used by sympathitic political power players. they recruit, the have literature and they have a flag. how is that not organized?

Ok antifa are bad people who do bad things. Should I defend them or something? What about the proud boys am I missing? What part of my analysis was incorrect? To me they look like a gang of white people who are going out looking for fights with 'leftists'. They're pro white and nationalist. Am I somehow mischaracterizing them?

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I mean I'm not saying that individual groups cant have rules or structure (although this group looks more to be a name and shame kind of deal, which h is still awful.). Theres ko central shared dogma except they hate "fascists " however they define it. Also Philadelphia is not in Europe.

Proud boys by contrast has one website that organizes many chapters under a similar/identical charter. This is not to say that antifa are good people or that I approve of their existence, but proud boys is a more centrally organized group, seeing as it is far right and has a singular founder, that would make sense.

So proud boys are essentially a white gang that goes out to get into fights with antifa, that's more or less their stated goal. Just like any gang, they are shitty people. Antifa is shitty, proud boys are also shitty. We have police and laws that are not benefitted when some dick with a stick goes out thinking hes going to crack some skulls . Both of these groups have little to no redeeming value, and should stop existing.

I'm not going to argue you on the gang part except to agree with the other poster that they say they formed in a response to conservatives being attacked in the streets. I feel the same way though in that I do not condone political violence.

The other important thing to understand (and this goes for many groups). Being anti white guilt does not make you a white supremacist, being a western chauvinist (nationalist) does not make you a white supremacist, being a conservative does not make you a white supremacist. Now an actual white supremacist may also consider themselves to be any or all of those things. Having some things in common does not make them the same thing.... seems like a lot of people have a hard time with this concept.

So I think some of the issue here is down to terminologies. For me when someone says "alt-right" its very specific. It means the ethno-nationalists who are openly racist, they want a white only country. This type of nationalism is deeply unamerican as far as I'm concerned and I think you'd find the same sentiment among just about any conservative you talk to... including the proud boys.

The term alt right, means to me, any right wing organization that falls outside of the contemporary right wing, it has now become a catch all for those who are part of far right white supremacy movements though. Anyway, I feel like all of their statements and stances are attempting to dance around the fact that they are trying to get young people into white supremacy/nationalism.

This is the stance that a lot of white supremacy orgs take about them, that the proud boys ultimately agree with them but are presenting a message that's more innocuous. Again, they're essentially a gang that defines itself by branding and getting into violent confrontations with other gangs. You wouldn't consider the bloods a group of fine gentlemen because they were formed in response to crip aggression, youd say two wrongs dont make a right and move on with your life.

I dont like gangs of any kind and I dont see why this gang is different, except that it's almost entirely composed of white people, and it has a political message. I'm not one to label everything I don't like as a dog whistle, but I think it's pretty clear that this is what they are doing, especially given that their proclivities are based around white pride and 'western chauvinism'.

again we agree that gangs are not a good thing.

What I don't agree with is saying these guys are some kind of "white power light" group. How can that be the case when they welcome minorities into their ranks? Are some of the individuals involved in the group white supremacists? Maybe. Again its down the having common political values. In there case as far as the organization is concerned one of those values is not racism.

This group was started by that Gavin Mcinnes guy as you probably know. Hes another good example of a conservative who's been painted as some kind of alt-right or alt-light persona. Again its a similar argument to what you are making above, that hes some kind of gatekeeper or introduction to white supremacy. I disagree what that on the same grounds as I have already stated. Being conservative and or nationalist does not = racist. Its really troubling to me (a liberal) to watch so many people on the left do the same thing you are doing... calling people you disagree with racist with no actual basis for that. Another good example would be Ben Shapiro. Run of the mill milquetoast conservative who is frequently called a Nazi. Take a step back and realize there aren't Klan members under your bed.

So you agree that this organization is a gang based around violence with people they disagree with politically, but that the characterization of racism is too far?

Looking at all the pictures they post, they seem pretty exclusively white. That in and of itself does not mean that they are racist, but being an organization that stresses white pride, you dont think that they're somewhat self selecting what they're looking for?

I'm not going to defend anyone else's stance for anything, I'm saying this organization in this case seems to me a group that is trying to skirt a line without being openly white supremacist, while being enveloped in all the trappings.

From their webpage

"The Proud Boys confuse the media because the group is anti-SJW without being alt-right. “Western chauvinist” includes all races, religions, and sexual preferences."

So all races, religions, and sexual preferences are welcome but still a white supremacist group?

You are a liberal correct? Does that mean you are automatically a dirty communist who wants to toss problem people into a gulag? Think this though a little more.

Again not defending the gang aspect of proud boys but yes characterizing them as racist is too far. Calling everyone you disagree with a racist trivializes what that word actually means. Saying things like "without being openly white supremacist, while being enveloped in all the trappings" is absurd. Is every member of Antifa some pinko scum bag? Probably not. These are people with opinions you disagree with and that's fine. Accusing people of racism were non exists is a disgraceful political tactic that does a disservice to actual political discourse and liberal values. Please break out of that programming.

I wouldn't describe myself as anything. Honestly I was more of a conservative than anything else. I try to call it as I see it but I know that's somewhat impossible really. You wont even admit that they're a gang based around violence, when it's one of the requirements to join (violence against self and implied violence against political enemies. ).

They know what they're doing and the kind of crowd they're attracting and they're very intentionally doing that. They're not just a bunch of swell guys whom I happen to disagree with politically. They're a fucking gang of thugs who goes right up to the line of explicitly being white supremacist, so they can pretend that it's not what they're about when someone accuses them of being racists. I'm sure we'll never see a breakdown of membership but I'd say it's almost exclusively white based on the pictures they choose to put on their website.

And yes, every member of antifa who goes out there and causes violence is a piece of shit, I didnt think that was a surprise from me, given I said that groups that engage in violence are pieces of shit. Antifa is a little different, as I've previously stated, because it's not one organization with an explicit doctrine. Proud boys is.

I did agree that gangs are bad... not sure why you think I'm not agreeing with you there.

You are seeing racists I'm seeing people with opinions that I may find questionable. You are literally saying "yeah they may say they aren't racist but I know they are" and that is not an argument.

Swell guys? I have no idea I've never met one.... I would guess that there are assholes and nice people in their ranks just like any group of people. I have seen a group of them in the city I live in at a rally.. one was white the rest were not. That's obviously not a good sample size, but its lived experience for me.

Yes agree members of antifa who cause violence are pieces of shit. Members of proud boys who cause violence are pieces of shit. Would someone who was defending a peaceful protest from violent opposition still be a piece of shit? I mean they are all still people... people who may or may not be misguided in whatever it is they hope to accomplish with their actions. I'm not interested in labeling people as racist on a whim... its not just stupid its harmful as I said before. You've clearly made up your mind on it and now you are just reaping the same things you have been saying over and over (emotional opinions based on nothing) so best of luck to you I suppose.

Yes if your organization says they want to get Into fights with antifa and they go out to get into fights and escalate shit with antifa, they're part of the problem even if they say they're just there to protect people. That's what we have police for, not gangs. For the record I wasnt a big fan when the black Panthers did it either but there was far more justification.

Theres no world where they arent pieces of trash, since their doctrine is go out and be a piece of trash and engage in hoodlum behavior. Even if they were somehow not racists (they are) they're still thugs. I feel like you're defending the closest thing to a brown shirt we have in America right now, because their website doesnt explicitly say gas the jews. I'm not a fucking idiot and I know what someone who says white pride is about.

I haven't spent much time in all parts of Oakland but from where I'm familiar, there isn't much racial tension at all (tension with the cops is another story). After "Permit Patty"s sad display at Lake Merritt, thousands of people of all colors have been coming together to celebrate the space and the summer. I would argue that the "threat" of desegregation/integration is what can cause some burgeoning racist to snap.

Concur. Not much racial tension at all (aside from cops). OP calling it "obvious" is a stretch.

That said, I'm curious to hear more details along the lines of the OP. This murder is out of place.

Oakland and the east bay are tense even by California standards, it's not racial lines so much as it income disparity. You've got hood life right down the road from tech millionaires. It shakes out along racial lines, but it's really income based.

Nailed it... most non-rich are too busy working a full and part time job to get by to be worried about someone’s skin color. I work all over Oakland and I rarely see overt racism. When I do it’s usually black folks with something to say about white people but it comes across more as frustration than hate.

...Except foreign Uber/lyft drivers, they are not a fan of black oakland natives and have plenty to say.

Suffice to say if your not from Oakland or don’t work there, don’t fall for the hype. Oakland has great parts of town and bad parts. Just like any urban area.

What nationality are “foreign Uber/lyft drivers”?

Various African countries, Arab, Pakistani, and Indian.

Armenian, Irish, English, Russian and Jewish

Well if it is real the poor will attack the rich if it goes down any other way it is a complete fabrication.

So dont hold your breath.

Ahhh but you see the poor people are the least educated, that's why these ploys work. They succeed in making making Mr. Trailerpark hate Mr. Barrio and Mr. Projects and Mr Korean Liquor store and vice versa. So collectively they just fight each other while the rich get richer.

They are trying to reignite racial tension for sure. Proof: go watch a movie @ the theatre right now. Tell me you dont hear black people/white people referenced in just the trailers, at least 5 times.

Reading sites like 4chan, and voat, most of them are quite obsessed with starting a race war, and exterminating blacks, and Muslims. From info to prepare and instigate one, to just plain old fantasies about murder, there are a LOT of people who want this. I sincerely hope it never happens.

That and the "Stand your ground" law in Florida. Suddenly a white guy starts bullying a black guys wife, the black guy comes out of the store & pushes the dumbass & the dumbass pulls out a gun & shoots the husband.

And there are no charges!? I agree I believe the eyes are on the rich & they only want our anger being taken out on each other.

I have customers from all races/backgrounds & most people are just in the middle. They aren't overly polite or rude.

1 punch can destroy your life. Dont think it's like on tv.

Shoot them

You should go outside sometime and take a look around.

It is going to be ok.

Concur. Not much racial tension at all (aside from cops). OP calling it "obvious" is a stretch.

That said, I'm curious to hear more details along the lines of the OP. This murder is out of place.

Oakland and the east bay are tense even by California standards, it's not racial lines so much as it income disparity. You've got hood life right down the road from tech millionaires. It shakes out along racial lines, but it's really income based.

What nationality are “foreign Uber/lyft drivers”?

So nothing I said contradicted anything on their own website. The things they ask people to do to join their organization are the same kinds of things gangs ask of their members. How is this particularly complex? They say they are anti white guilt and western chauvinists.

Yes, antifa are a bunch of assholes too. Far less organized but yeah definitely pieces of human trash. If you go out into the streets looking for a fight I don't think very much of you. To me, the proud boys seem like a way for people to dip their feet into the world of white supremacy.