IIRC one is supposed to go thru years of therapy before hormones/surgery are an option.

No idea. But without this therapy from a reputable practitioner, I see that as child abuse.

Who is "they" and where are you learning about this? People magazine?

So you're expecting us to believe you have inside knowledge from Jolie herself? Interesting.

I'm a bot, bleep, bloop. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:

• [/r/topmindsofreddit] Along with having a transsexual opera singer girlfriend that he "fucks like the apes on BET", prolific top mind is also Angelina Jolie's cousin. Along with other stupid top mind bullshit.

 ^{If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don't vote in the other threads. (Info / Contact)}

We can all agree

lol, not in this sub

It's a mental illness in that its a disassociation.

The surgery is elective, so its not a treatment. More of a solution.

A disassociation from the gender they were born into.

There is no 'cure'. Which is why I said the operation is only a solution. A band aid to help the person (possibly) live a better life.

Unless we can actually turn a man into a woman (which we cant), the trans op cant be called a 'treatment'.

You can be born into a gender? So it's not a social construct...?

Why would you think that I'm suggesting it is? What have I possibly said that suggests i think that people can jump around between genders?

No cure? So they'll be paying for "treatment" for the rest of their lives?

As far as I know they need to keep up the hormone therapy for the rest of their days, otherwise issues that arise. But thats not a treatment, it doesnt eventually make them a man/woman.

Wait... Are you reinforcing the gender binary right now? Saying lets turn a man into a woman is ignoring the truth of the gender binary.

Where did I say lets turn a man into a woman?

Please, at least learn a little bit about what you're talking about before you post online.

To be honest, I think you need to work on your comprehension skills a little.

You're so blinded by your own ideology, you cant even see when someone is in general agreement with you. My one area of opposition would be that I dont think its my business if a grown adult wants to transition to the opposite sex.

But this seems to be a problem with your discussions in general, your responses are emotionally led, which blinds you to anything that diverges from your own thought process.

Once again, point out to me where i said gender was a social construct.

Or admit your mistaken tirade.

For the last time where have i said its a social construct?

Just quote me saying it.

It's not a complicated request.

If people are not born into a gender, as you suggest, then that means that every single person on earth made a conscious choice about their own gender.

Is it?

The reason I pointed that out is to show that the claim you made has absurd implications. I did not ever make a conscious choice nor did the extreme majority of people.

In fact, the only people who give it any thought are the few that are non-conforming. I don’t mean that to say they are wrong, just to illustrate that the argument the two of you were having was false from both sides.

Credit is a social construct completely: before society invented it, it did not exist at all in an undefined sense.

Gender is not, unless we are just splitting hairs over the exact definition. Even without labels or consideration it exists. The social construct part is merely to make definitions for what we observed.

Gender is as much of a social construct as seasons are. Think of fall, winter, summer, spring, the things that come to mind for each have socially defined concepts but those are all based on observed reality based on nature. Plants will bloom in spring and will produce fruits in fall and lose their foliage in winter regardless of what we label them as.

To me none of that carries any real moral directive. But if your goal is to advocate for trans people, arguing about the definition of gender vs sex is a pointless hill to die on because the person you are arguing with can point to objective facts and be correct as well. This is because gender was colloquially adapted to mean sex in the 1400’s and was used as a synonym entirely until very recently beyond fringe counter-culture types in the 1960’s. So gender meaning only sex is the valid definition historically, the activists have tried to change the meaning, this is also true. But it isn’t an argument that can be won.

Better solution would be to just make a new word instead of trying to force people to accept the definition that some want it to be. (And for many it is even worse because they argue as if it is ignorant to think gender=sex when they, themselves, are the ones ignorant of the history of the word.)

A disassociation from the gender they were born into.

That doesnt say gender is a social construct.

In my opinion there is no 'cure'. Which is why I said the operation is only a solution. A band aid to help the person (possibly) live a better life.

That doesnt say gender is a social construct.

Unless we can actually turn a man into a woman (which we cant), the trans op can never be called a 'treatment' because a treatment suggests a possible eventual cure.

And guess what? That doesnt say it either.

You have comprehension problems that make you defensive. Its the reason all of your posts descend into chaos.

It's quite frightening watching someone with no self-awareness, posting on important subjects.

Yes I did say that. Because they were born into that gender but for whatever reason, over time, they disassociate from it.

That doesnt in anyway imply that I think gender is fluid.

And despite everything else I've said that suggests that I dont think gender is a social construct, despite the fact that I said it was a disassociation from their gender (and not some sort of change of gender), you still didnt think to just quickly clarify what I meant with that phrase? You decided to dig your heels in...

You're nothing but a contrarian, there's the proof in black and white. Grow the fuck up if you want to converse with adults.

What about feeding kids sex hormones before they reach puberty is that a solution.

Or maybe scooping out flesh between a man's legs and fashioning the nerves from his glands as a new neo clitorous. Just make sure to dilate and douche twice a day or is will close it self up and become a horrible puss ridden gash!

We let people get GGG size tits and mutilate their faces to look like monsters.

An`y type of body modification is a mental illness from rhinoplasty to calf implants.

Let people do what they want.

you want to encourage it?

Im not sure how you came to the conclusion I want to encourage it. Allowing something is very different than encouragement.

I'm not okay with paying for elective surgery.

Good then I cant wait to hear more posts about having to pay for elective procedures!

Lol wut?

Christ man. Grow up. Argue your point. Use your words.

u/Go_Spurs_Go

Really? Thats how you decided to respond?

No just par for the course.

You get stumped and resort to ad hominems.

Its really more a sad state of affairs than it is triggering.

This is just sad.

That's pretty racist

I know you'll disregard it because that's what people do when they have a motivation to believe something against all facts, but here's a good primer on gender dysphoria (since you seem to be confused as to what it's all about): https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria

And what is the scientific fact of a sex/gender binary?

You exist because a penis went into a vagina once. As does every single person alive.

Yep, this is an accurate statement. What does that have to do with the current discussion?

Well, those two terms are limited - are we talking about anatomy or gender? Physical representation of the genitals or a presentation of gendered behaviors?

Chromosomes would relate to your genitals - here's another great read on gender: https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2018/03/19/what-role-do-sex-chromosomes-play-in-transgender-peoples-identities/#68f5939611ea

It sounds like you're mixing up sex and gender. Don't worry about it - lots of people make that mistake!

Also, did you read the original source I posted for you?

Incorrect. If you'd read any of the sources, you'd understand why. My thinking is that you have no desire to learn, you simply have a desire to bait people into an endless back and forth over an "edgy" topic.

Or you could refer to the resources I've already supplied. Two of the three include very detailed definitions.

Sex refers to a person's anatomy, their reproductive system. Gender refers to the social roles they embody and/or performances.

Honest question: why do you request documentation for arguments and then refuse to read them?

Not likely - gender is too influenced by the culture in which that person is raised.

Sex refers to your biological makeup. Male and female refer to your sex. It's determined by your chromosomes, sexual organs, etc.

Gender refers to the role society assigned to you (e.g. man/woman) and the associated expectations (masculinity/femininity)

Gender isn't inborn, because it refers to the role society categorizes you in. Your gender isn't even fixed and can change if you move a culture that has a different way of assigning gender roles.

"gender identity" refers to the innate sense of which gender you belong to. Your gender identy is inborn and is based on the sex of your brain.

Transgender people report that they feel like the opposite sex, because their innate gender identity doesn't align with their sex.

We lefties always say "gender is a social construct" because we want to highlight that the labels "man" and "woman" don't have to be based on your assigned sex just because we in the western world did it this way for a couple thousand years.

If we base it on the sex of their brain instead it's a categorization that's just as valid, but that makes more sense (because the brain tells you more about a person than their chromosomes) and that's better (because transgender people have regular rates of mental illnesses and suicide rate if they can live as their preferred gender).

Yep - if you had read any of the resources I provided several posts up, we could've avoided all of this wasted time. But something tells me this sort of thing is the highlight of your day...

They are.

Sex and gender are synonymous if you only look at the traditional western world, but not every culture is based on Christianity.

Sex refers to your biological makeup. Your sex is a biological fact.

Gender refers to your role in society and the associated expectations. Gender is a social construct, meaning that different cultures have different ways of deciding who's a man or a woman (or even a third gender).

There are plenty of cultures that base gender on performance or identity and that even have more than two genders.

In other cultures there doesn't exist the idea that every male is a man and that every male is straight. This idea is based on the idea that it would be blasphemy to go against the plan of the Christian God, but plenty of other cultures accept that biology is more complex than two simple boxes.

For example would you think it's gay if a transgender woman sleeps with a man (both were born male)? Probably yes, right? Well even in Iran - where homosexuality is punishable by death - this isn't considered to be homosexuality because they consider post-op transgender women to be actual women based on their religious beliefs. (because transgender woman have already existed during the time of Muhammad and they even described sex change surgery (or the Great Circumcision) in detail)

So that's why I look at these things in the way my ancestors did.

So in a stupid way just for the sake of not changing? How does that make sense?

You really should work on posting complete thoughts in a single post - it makes replying soooo much easier for everyone.

"Gender roles are usually centered on conceptions of femininity and masculinity,[2] although there are exceptions and variations. The specifics regarding these gendered expectations may vary substantially among cultures, while other characteristics may be common throughout a range of cultures. There is ongoing debate as to what extent gender roles and their variations are biologically determined, and to what extent they are socially constructed."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_role#cite_note-Alters-2

I'm not your Google search engine, friend.

Ah, so you can't give an example of something you claim exists.... Lol. Stop making this so easy.

From which culture?

Women are the homemakers while men are the breadmakers. Obviously, that's a very, very simplified example but something tells me if I were to devote any more time and research in order to provide you with information, it'd be wasted.

It's funny that you wanted examples from western culture and yet you seem so unfamiliar with western terms.

Social constructs can be activities or expectations of a specific sex, yes. I do not have an answer as to why culture operates in a specific way - I don't know if anybody does. I would argue that infusion of Christianity has had a profound impact on western gender roles. But that's neither here nor there.

And no, I wouldn't claim that gender roles are a thing of the past. They're more discussed these days and there's more allowance of variance from those roles, but they certainly do still exist.

I suppose that’s relative.

Can I ask - what is your intention with this post? When faced with sourced opposition, you don’t read or even attempt discussion in good faith. So what’s the point? Boredom? Harassment of a population? Does that make you feel like a bigger person?

Your goal can’t be to learn or to explore because despite the multitude of information provided to you, your only response is to resort to a personalized insult or to throw a non-sequitur in the mix to distract from the fact you don’t have a good response to objections towards your belief.

You make the same statements again and again and disregard any attempt by others to use reason or science. So, again, what is your intention?

First off - good job on deleting your original comment. The original content of that comment is exactly why I truly believe you have absolutely no interest in doing anything of meaning with this post - you're just trying to bait people. But you've deleted it so others can't see you for what you are - I guess that was a smart decision, if you're acting out in your own best interest.

Tell you what my goal is. Proceeds to project. Yeah, I don't have time for people so brainwashed by the agenda that they can't see what's being pushed by "liberating" trans people from their oppressive gender. Being transgender isn't a thing. You're either male or female. Anything else is a mental illness.

AKA you have nothing of worth to contribute to a discussion you yourself created in an attempt to stir up drama. When confronted with actual information that disproves or objects to your underdeveloped, immature perspective on gender, rather than "learn" as you claimed you were trying to do, you resort to ad hominem attacks and claims of "triggering" as if this is 4chan. In the real world, with adults and stuff, that shit doesn't fly.

It is really funny how you mention brainwashing when you yourself can't really explain or defend your position other than to say "Being transgender isn't a thing". You have no justification or evidence for your belief other than the whole "transgender" thing makes you feel icky and uncomfortable.

What? Who said anything about denying you agency? Last I checked, I didn’t have a kill switch for your internet connection.

1. No one said your opinion isn't valid (although you'd be hard pressed to find someone who would argue for the validity of your opinion, especially as expressed in this thread).
2. Agency is your ability to act for yourself - I could write over and over again that your opinion is invalid and bigoted and in bad-faith, but it wouldn't have a single impact on your agency.

Are you asking me, personally, or are you wanting me to make a blanket statement?

That would require him to discuss in good faith, which is not his goal.

What is his goal?

No idea, but it sure isn't to have an honest discussion otherwise he would answer a question instead of only ever asking them and avoiding any information anybody else presents.

This is absolutely the height of hilarity coming from a Q cultist.

intersex genitalia is a real thing dude.

Also, why do you care? If we were talking about restricting media to a 'binary' representation you'd be foaming about free speech rights.

What does make gender then? Where does this binary reside and how does it express itself?

So I guess all the evidence of chromosomal intersex individuals isn't worth considering? What about this from the US Nat'l Library of Medicine? Or are these individuals "freaks of nature" as you so lovingly put it?

lol that's so far off from the actual incidence rate I honestly feel sorry for you. Why are you reactive against normal chromosomal human variation?

Here's some medical stats you could have found with a minute of searching:

1. From the WHO page on Gender and Genetics

One interesting bit from here:

Aneuploidy is the condition of having less than (monosomy) or more than (polysomy) the normal diploid number of chromosomes. Aneuploidy occurs in at least 5% of all pregnancies and is the most commonly recognized chromosome abnormality in humans. (16) Divergence from the normal number of X and Y chromosomes, called sex chromosome aneuploidy (SCA), accounts for approximately half of all chromosomal anomalies in humans with a total frequency of 1:400.

From the same source:

• XYY Males -- 1:1000
• XXX Females -- 1:1000
• Turner syndrome (monosomy X chromosomal) -- 1:3000
• Klinefelter syndrom (male phenotype, XXY / XY&XXY chromosomal expression) -- 1:600 males

1. From the ISNA, which I'm sure you'll reject as a source, but anyway

2. From Pubmed, in an article that tries to debunk the 1.7% rate myth as too high

Relevant bit:

If the term intersex is to retain any meaning, the term should be restricted to those conditions in which chromosomal sex is inconsistent with phenotypic sex, or in which the phenotype is not classifiable as either male or female. Applying this more precise definition, the true prevalence of intersex is seen to be about 0.018%, almost 100 times lower than Fausto-Sterling s estimate of 1.7%.

That's 18:1000 births, not counting Turner syndrome or Klinefelter (or others like them), that express some scientifically valid intersex condition by chromosomal variation.

18 out of every 1000 babies expresses a phenotypic sex (i.e. their genitalia) that doesn't match their chromosomal sex.

Let that sink in.

If gender is a matter of chromosomes, then there sure is a lot of non-binary variation in gender, by your definition.

Move goalposts much? What happened to one in a billion?

As for your question about trans people -- I only chimed in on this discussion because you said gender is binary and that chromosomes determine gender.

Clearly chromosomal variation among humans is (1) not reflective of the binary absolutism you profess and (2) clearly more common than the one in a billion figure you pulled out of your ass.

To me, 18/1000 is significant, but even that number doesn't account for the full range of chromosomal variation that occurs without resulting in a disjunct between phenotypic expression and chromosomal sex.

let's completely change our culture and society to let the[m] feel accepted.

Literally no one is talking about this as far as I can tell. But why do you think this is the case?

And would it really hurt if we helped these folks feel loved? Is your life, specifically, somehow worse off because of these issues?

One last thing to consider: only 2 or 3 out of 1000 babies are born deaf. But every TV and streaming device has closed captioning as an option. We have literally changed society for these 2 or 3 out of 1000. Is this an unfair accommodation by your standards?

Because they're not happy with the body they've been given, so they seek to change it.

If that could cause you to become a woman, then yeah.

But it doesn't, so...

In their mind they should be a woman, so making their male body more feminine helps alleviate this mental anguish.

So it's not a lie to them.

What makes someone a woman? Is it the possession of a functional vagina?

I don't think they believe they will ever be 100% woman, but getting 90% there is better than being 0% there.

If we're using racing analogies - It's better to try than to do nothing.

Because living as your assigned sex IS the lie.

... Do you not know what gender dysphoria is?

If you're unaware that gender dysphoria has a whole lot to do with a persons sex, then you've no business making a thread about it.

No, i'm not.

You have no business making threads you know nothing about. Next time, you should title the thread "I don't know what i'm talking about so here's my question"

You should feel very embarrassed about not knowing what gender dysphoria is, this far into your own thread.

"Assigned sex? So gender dysphoria is about sex now?"

You absolutely didn't know what it was.

You still don't know what it is if you think I made a semantic error.

And how is living a lie better than learning to love who you are?

So let's say you go to a hospital, but end up getting an accidental sex change because the doctors mixed up the rooms.

Would you just accept who you are now and learn to love it?

You’re gonna have to move that goal post again when gene therapy becomes popular

But they just "look" like a woman. They aren't one...

That's not a fact though. They aren't one in the Bible belt, but they can be one in other cultures.

Even if they were at the same place, but in a time before the European settlers came they would be a woman.

So how is that not a lie..

Let's say we are both 18, but in my culture adulthood is based on being 18 and older, but in yours it's based on being 21 and older.

Would I be lying if I told you that I am an adult? No I wouldn't, because in my culture I would be an adult. It simply wouldn't matter to me at all if I wouldn't be an adult in your culture. You would be lying if you claimed that I'm not an adult because I'm not 21.

Adulthood is a social construct. There's no universally true guideline that states how a society should label people as adults. Biology merely provides us the fact that we undergo puberty and reach maturity, but it doesn't tell us where to draw the line.

Similarly gender is also a social construct. Biology merely provides us sexual dimorphism, but it doesn't tell us where to draw the line and how to categorize people.

There's no reason why chromosomes should be the defining factor for gender, especially because it's not intuitive. You can't directly perceive someone's chromosomes, but you can perceive which gender role they adhere to.

Like if you brought this person along to meet your parents they wouldn't care if he has a vagina. They would ask you to introduce your boyfriend.

this argument only works if the trannies you're talking about are from different cultures. I dont have any stats to back this but I'd wager that the vast majority of them in the u.s. are at the very least from western cultures

The lie is forcing them to act cis.

You can't force gay people to be straight. This will only make them mentally insane.

Similarly you can't force trans people to be cis. This causes them to be mentally ill, but if they can live as their preferred gender their mental health and suicide rates are similar to normal people.

Cis is a disgusting slur.

Lol what? Did your parents never teach you Latin, Chemistry or Geography when they homeschooled you?

but if they can live as their preferred gender their mental health and suicide rates are similar to normal people.

Care to source that? From what I've read there's a high incidence of regret and suicide after sex change operations.

Care to source that? From what I've read there's a high incidence of regret and suicide after sex change operations.

Then you haven't read anything from credible sources. That's a common, but evidently wrong misinterpretation that's floating around on right wing fake news sites.

One of the commonly cited resources is http://www.sexchangeregret.com/research

But if you take a look at their sources it becomes evident that they are deliberately lying about the findings of their sources

Their first source:

• SWEDISH STUDY

A long-term study of 324 sex-reassigned persons in 2003 in Sweden concluded:

"Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity [diseased state] than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism. (Read the entire study here)"

There are thousands of others like me, who underwent the surgery only to discover that it did not help. The only results from the surgery were some cosmetic changes.

It might be easy to dismiss my opinions as just one man’s story, but I've done extensive research into what the experts say. You can read the results in Paper Genders.

Okay so now let's break it down.

First: this study doesn't say that it didn't help. It says that it did alleviate gender dysphoria.

Secondly: it's often used as proof that it increases their rates, but it doesn't say that either.

Thirdly: even the author herself made public statements calling out these "ridiculous misinterpretations".

In reality regret is very rare and usually caused by outdated procedures, bad doctors or an unwelcoming environment afterwards.

Here's what actual research says:

Bauer, et al., 2015: http://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12889-015-1867-2

Transition vastly reduces risks of suicide attempts, and the farther along in transition someone is the lower that risk gets.

Moody, et al., 2013: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3722435

The ability to transition, along with family and social acceptance, are the largest factors reducing suicide risk among trans people.

Young Adult Psychological Outcome After Puberty Suppression and Gender Reassignment: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/09/02/peds.2013-2958

A clinical protocol of a multidisciplinary team with mental health professionals, physicians, and surgeons, including puberty suppression, followed by cross-sex hormones and gender reassignment surgery, provides trans youth the opportunity to develop into well-functioning young adults. All showed significant improvement in their psychological health, and they had notably lower rates of internalizing psychopathology than previously reported among trans children living as their natal sex. Well-being was similar to or better than same-age young adults from the general population.

The only disorders more common among trans people are those associated with abuse and discrimination - mainly anxiety and depression.

http://www.jaacap.com/article/S0890-8567%2816%2931941-4/fulltext

Early transition virtually eliminates these higher rates of depression and low self-worth and dramatically improves trans youth's mental health

https://thinkprogress.org/allowing-transgender-youth-to-transition-improves-their-mental-health-study-finds-dd6096523375#.pqspdcee0

Trans kids who socially transition early and who are not subjected to abuse or discrimination are comparable to cisgender children in measures of mental health.

Dr. Ryan Gorton https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3219066

"In a cross-sectional study of 141 transgender patients, Kuiper and Cohen-Kittenis found that after medical intervention and treatments, suicide fell from 19 percent to zero percent in transgender men and from 24 percent to 6 percent in transgender women."

Murad, et al., 2010 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19473181

"Significant decrease in suicidality post-treatment. The average reduction was from 30 percent pretreatment to 8 percent post treatment. ... A meta-analysis of 28 studies showed that 78 percent of transgender people had improved psychological functioning after treatment."

De Cuypere, et al., 2006 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1158136006000491

Rate of suicide attempts dropped dramatically from 29.3 percent to 5.1 percent after receiving medical and surgical treatment among Dutch patients treated from 1986-2001.

UK study http://www.gires.org.uk/assets/Medpro-Assets/trans_mh_study.pdf

"Suicidal ideation and actual attempts reduced after transition, with 63% thinking about or attempting suicide more before they transitioned and only 3% thinking about or attempting suicide more post-transition.

Smith Y, 2005 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15842032

Participants improved on 13 out of 14 mental health measures after receiving treatments.

Lawrence, 2003 http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1024086814364

Surveyed post-op trans folk: "Participants reported overwhelmingly that they were happy with their SRS results and that SRS had greatly improved the quality of their lives"

https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/

The scholarly literature makes clear that gender transition is effective in treating gender dysphoria and can significantly improve the well-being of transgender individuals.

Among the positive outcomes of gender transition and related medical treatments for transgender individuals are improved quality of life, greater relationship satisfaction, higher self-esteem and confidence, and reductions in anxiety, depression, suicidality, and substance use.

The positive impact of gender transition on transgender well-being has grown considerably in recent years, as both surgical techniques and social support have improved.

Regrets following gender transition are extremely rare and have become even rarer as both surgical techniques and social support have improved. Pooling data from numerous studies demonstrates a regret rate ranging from .3 percent to 3.8 percent. Regrets are most likely to result from a lack of social support after transition or poor surgical outcomes using older techniques.

https://genderanalysis.net/2015/07/walt-heyer-and-sex-change-regret-gender-analysis-09/

These anecdotes are few and flimsy, and those who stir up fears of regret have no excuse for relying on them so heavily. Rigorous studies on transition outcomes and regrets have been available for years. In a 2003 study of 232 trans women who had received genital reconstruction from the same surgeon, none were consistently regretful, and 6% felt regret sometimes. Eight respondents were regretful because of inadequate surgical outcomes, five were regretful because of social and family issues, and two occasionally returned to living as men on a temporary basis. This pattern is consistent with the personal accounts we’ve seen citing social difficulties or shortcomings of transition treatment.

Another study in 2005 found that out of 162 trans adults, only one reported that she would choose not to transition again, and another had some regrets but would choose to transition again. Five participants only felt regrets during treatment, and did not want to return to living as their assigned gender.

A study in 2006 similarly found that out of 62 trans people who had undergone surgery, one woman said she occasionally regretted it, and continued to live as a woman. And in 2009, a study of 50 trans women who had received genital reconstruction found that only two felt regret sometimes. It’s no surprise that Walt Heyer has to reach so far to find so few cases of regret: all of the available research on the subject indicates that this is extremely uncommon.

I have 0 issues with people that fall under that category. I accept them for who they are. I just wish people would take the right steps into researching what the long term side effects are. It's their body they can do whatever they want but I would rather see a happy/healthy person that accepts themselves for who they are with out the medications.

That's true. I would rather not pay for that if it the direction we are going towards. I would rather see everyone help and do their own research and help/accept people that think/feel that way and just let them know medications are just a bandaid covering a large wound that needs to be healed internally.

this is the most disturbing argument that i saw in my life against healthcare.

this is the most disturbing argument i ever saw against healthcare.

So you would also think people with a plastic surgery disorder should be financed by public healthcare? It's pretty much the same just not focused on their sexual identity but their visual one.

Or to get it out of this politically charged area do you think public health care should pay for somebody's sport injuries during a winter vacation?

P.S. I'm am for public healthcare and think basic private healthcare should be abolished to control the prices. But I don't think everything should be paid there. If somebody wants their tattoos removed they should pay for it or their private luxury insurance.

what is a "plastic surgery disorder"?
and i do not agree that a sex reassignment surgery can be compared with an elective plastic surgery.
and yes, if you have a injury you should be treated, this is how public healthcare works. at least in Brasil, people will not ask where you get the injuries, unless it is important to your diagnosis.

People who seem to suffer the impulse for permanent plastic surgeries.

i can see, but this is not the case with people with gender dysphoria.

But it is. These people have a problem with their visual identity and use permanent plastic surgeries to "match" it with their imagined one.

But it is. These people have a problem with their visual identity and use permanent plastic surgeries to "match" it with their imagined one.

Brain scans show that it their preferred gender aligns with their brain structure. You can't call it "imagined" if we can tell that their brain has a different sex than their body.

As for the brain studies:

"The question is not simply whether there are differences between the brains of transgender individuals and people identifying with the gender corresponding to their biological sex, but whether gender identity is a fixed, innate, and biological trait, even when it does not correspond to biological sex, or whether environmental or psychological causes contribute to the development of a sense of gender identity in such cases”... "There are no serial, longitudinal, or prospective studies looking at the brains of cross-gender identifying children who develop to later identify as transgender adults.”

No one is contesting that the fact that gender identity disorder/gender dysphoria is a legitimate psychological condition. The question is whether it is innate, fixed and part of human diversity or whether it is environmentally-derived, can change, and should be diagnosed as treated as a mental illness. There are identifyible markers in the brain scans of people with other mental disorders as well, like schizophrenia, schizoaffective, and bipolar disorders...but just because there are objective signs indicating the condition doesn’t mean it is healthy (“normal”) functioning for that individual.

...the majority of patients with gender dysphoria had at least one psychiatric Axis I comorbidity, the most common being major depressive disorder (33.7%), specific phobia (20.5%), and adjustment disorder (15.7%) [a]. Gender “dysphoria” is a diagnosis of depression. Yet being identified as a transsexual or diagnosed with gender dysphoria often stands in the way of getting a proper diagnosis of the comorbid or underlying psychopathologies. ...With a diagnosis of gender dysphoria they are encouraged to undergo sex transition as treatment....The coexisting psychiatric disorders should be treated first before undergoing irreversible, life-changing sex change surgeries. Depression and Axis 1 disorders can be treated properly with psychiatric medication in conjunction with effective talk therapy...

And also—

“prior to the widespread promotion of transition affirmation, 75 to 95 percent of pre-pubertal children eventually outgrew that distress. The vast majority came to accept their biological sex by late adolescence after passing naturally through puberty. ... Put plainly, transgender identification is something that most often corrects itself.

People who seem to suffer the impulse for permanent plastic surgeries. It's a mental disorder.

This doesn't mean that it's the exact same as any other mental disorder. Different disorders require different treatments.

I agree, so long as minors can't do it and it is not publicly funded.

And that's the prob people will try to argue "it's what my child needs". I look at it as people are fighting to keep hormones out of food, but why is it ok for kids when informed people know the harms that come with it. Specially when their minds/body's are not mature enough to handle medications at a young age. But I dont think many parents out there are doing that.

Any sources for this? I don't believe in religious bullshit, and I doubt you have any sources to back up this claim.

So...no sources or evidence?

You could easily distinguish your terms. Define the man for me.

Then why didn't you post this in /r/occult? Oh, because that line of reasoning is bullshit and they'd all call you out on it.

Absolute horseshit

Transgender people have existed in every culture from the dawn of history, gtfo with this revisionist bs.

Look up two spirits from Native American culture. Your perception of gender and social norms is based off the zeitgeist and judeo Christian “morality”.

Trans people represent a fraction of a percent of the population and their existence or acceptance in society has literally no effect on you. This Information Age tends to hyper-magnify social issues and people take that to mean they are much bigger issues than they are

False.

Aka "I don't know anything about this topic"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_system

"Two spirit" isn't trans gender. You're using a Euro centric view of indigenous cultures to impose your views onto them. Absolutely bigoted...

I think the point is that two-spirit is something that's even less possible in the tradional western gender system.

They are both man and woman at the same time, which is simply impossible in the binary western gender system.

Non-Mobile link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_system

^{HelperBot v1.1 /r/HelperBot_ I am a bot. Please message /u/swim1929 with any feedback and/or hate. Counter: 204039}

Y'know, I started off interested about your post, but after reading all of your replies you're just fucking obnoxious.

Same. Gender dysphoria is, by definition, a mental illness. There is nothing positive in the word dysphoria. And it should be treated as such.

You don't take a person with dissociative identity disorder and tell them to embrace all their personalities, do you?

To say this is an occult ritual is naive and disparages the people who suffer with society encouraging them to embrace an illness that brings them grief. I mean, how many people who have gender dysphoria want to feel that way? And if you can treat it without invasive procedures, that's kind of what medical doctors are supposed to do. Treat with the best interest of the patient in mind. So if you can deal with how you feel with talk therapy, who thinks it's a good idea to mutilate someone's genitals and pump them full of medications that prevent reproduction?

Same. Gender dysphoria is, by definition, a mental illness. There is nothing positive in the word dysphoria. And it should be treated as such.

Transitioning is the recommended treatment because it's the best way to get rid of gender dysphoria.

You don't take a person with dissociative identity disorder and tell them to embrace all their personalities, do you?

That's not comparable. Your example is like comparing being gay to dissociative identity disorder. Just because they aren't typical doesn't mean that they are crazy.

Humans can have male or female brains. That's normal. If one has a brain that has the wrong sex for their body it's possible to lead a normal healthy life if they can transition, just like gay people can lead a normal healthy life if we let them come out of the closet.

And if you can treat it without invasive procedures, that's kind of what medical doctors are supposed to do. Treat with the best interest of the patient in mind. So if you can deal with how you feel with talk therapy, who thinks it's a good idea to mutilate someone's genitals and pump them full of medications that prevent reproduction?

We tried that. We also tried to pray the gay away, but it simply doesn't work.

Surgery is the least invasive method and also one that works best. If you let them transition in an accepting environment their mental health is similar to that of cisgender people.

Transitioning is recommended by whom?

It's not anything like comparing homosexuality to DID. Homosexuality isn't an illness. Gender dysphoria is. Transvesticism isn't an illness, it's a preference. But gender dysphoria is an illness.

Maybe you've tried talk therapy, but there seem to be a lot of parents eager to change their child's gender, virtue signaling the whole way there.

Don't compare what I've said to "pray the gay away." That's a bullshit comparison.

Surgery is by definition the most invasive and most risky to the health of the individual. Working through talk therapy to help change one's perspective on how they feel about the body they have does more than just prevent unnecessary surgery, it also teaches one how to cope with other difficult situations. A young adult can't possibly know if they're about to do something that can't be reversed.

Transitioning is recommended by whom?

By the medical community at large. The APA agrees and that should be enough.

It's not anything like comparing homosexuality to DID. Homosexuality isn't an illness. Gender dysphoria is. Transvesticism isn't an illness, it's a preference. But gender dysphoria is an illness.

And gender dysphoria can be healed of they can transition in an accepting environment. They aren't considered to be mentally ill if they lead a normal healthy life post-OP.

Don't compare what I've said to "pray the gay away." That's a bullshit comparison.

It's the perfect analogy.

Surgery is by definition the most invasive and most risky to the health of the individual. Working through talk therapy to help change one's perspective on how they feel about the body they have does more than just prevent unnecessary surgery, it also teaches one how to cope with other difficult situations.

"just pray the gay away"

A young adult can't possibly know if they're about to do something that can't be reversed.

That's why young transgender adults do not get surgery right away. They get put on hormone blockers until they can decide which puberty they want to go through.

100% agreed.

Goal post moving, aggression when confronted, unable to understand even the slightest diversion from their mindset.

IRL, the OP is the type of person I'd avoid like the plague.

Unfortunately for me, I failed to read the user name before I commented. I wont make that mistake again.

This is 100% this dude's modus operandi.

this is a mischaracterization of the disease and of the treatment, wich includes, but in absolutely no way is restricted to reassignment surgery. inform yourself.

problem?

no, seems for you but it is not for me. also, the phrase "way these people are naturally is a disease" did not make sense to me or my beliefs

When people are unable or unwilling to realign their perceptions to reality, we seem to be readily willing to realign our reality to their perceptions.

It's a conspiracy to poison the minds of our youth with degeneracy. The entire trans/drag movement is putting so much effort into indoctrinating children, because that's how they reproduce, corrupting the youth generation.

Thanks bro I had to reply All I saw was "well I tottally love and respect everything even if it destroys the next generation of children with sexual perversion"

All of the "science" being pushed in that community is more akin to twisted psychological conditioning it's all this sick self validation tottally rejecting reality in search of your own wishes.

Reminds me aliester Crowley law of Thelma do as thou wilt. All of the hedonistic free love bullshit that has been pushed since the sexual revolution is all based in occult practice.

We are getting shilled hard dude I've seen you around for a while on different subs. This is the first time I've been in conspiracy I'm a while and it's degenerated into normie fb conspiracy and shills. Might as well stick around and try to fight back i suppose lok

Right? All those generations of humans raising children who may or may not have conformed to gender norms of the time and place just let their kids be. And guess what? They didn't have gender dysphoria until post-modernism came along and society started telling kids they could be anything they wanted. Before that, the child might grow up to be a well-adjusted gay person or a closeted transvestive (history is replete with secret transvestites who were heroes in their own right). But now, if little Johnny decides one day he wants to wear his sisters clothes, he must have gender dysphoria. He was born in the wrong body and mommy and daddy need to give him hormone suppression treatments, which, ironically, means he will never have offspring of his own. Convenient way to weed out the undesirables while parading the virtues of #bornthisway.

Let a kid do what he wants. But be certain, your decisions are probably not what your child would choose for themselves given the facts and the capacity to understand the long-term consequences of those actions (specifically drugging a child so they can more easily transition later when they might otherwise grow out of it).

As a former childcare educator, letting kids experiment and roleplay, along with not forcing gender conformity and letting them decide what they like without bringing your hang-ups into it is anything but degenerate.

Raising a child as a mini-me and pushing your lost goals and desires on them along with teaching them indentitarianism is degenerate.

Right? All those generations of humans raising children who may or may not have conformed to gender norms of the time and place just let their kids be. And guess what? They didn't have gender dysphoria until post-modernism came along and society started telling kids they could be anything they wanted.

History was much more accepting of transgender people until Christianity spread across the globe.

Many Native American tribes had non-binary genders, and would naturally address transgender people with a name and pronouns that were in line with how they identified.

Even today in super conservative places like Iran or India it's easier for transgender people choose their gender freely than in the Bible belt.

In Iran homosexuality is punishable by death, but transgender women sleeping with cisgender men is legally and religiously allowed, because even in the time of Muhammad "mukhannathun" were considered to be women in truth if they underwent the "great circumcision". The state even takes most of the cost and they have the second highest number of surgeries world wide.

Transgender people have always existed, but it only became harmful when the story of the Garden of Eden made people believe that transitioning is unnatural and blasphemy.

They didn't have gender dysphoria until the Old Testament came along and society started telling kids they could not be the gender that aligns with their natural innate gender identity.

I don't think you can say,

"we can all agree gender dysphoria is in the head."

I do think I can say, we may have been wrong about gender, and it is religions who decided there were only two manifestations of human sexuality.

lol, you know I was saying religion, a system of oppression and control is not science, and some of us are willing to use Science to shape our understanding, not faith alone.

Science means asking the questions and knowing there is always another question vs. Religion where everything has to be an impossible absolute.

The idea that there are only two genders and that your sex determines your gender is religious in nature.

That's a Christian idea based on the idea that the Christian God is infallible and that going against his plan is blasphemy.

There's no objectively true reason why we should construct our gender system in this way.

So the 10 commandments, part of the old testament should be disregarded by Christians and the fact that Jesus' heredity, as a descendant of the Old Testament King David is essential to his existence, and Jewish, should be disregarded? Oh my, you are confusing things a lot, right?

The old testament is Christian? Lol. Obfuscate more. You're taking about the Jewish parts of the Bible.

Which highly influenced the Christian parts.

Sure the Jewish gender system is quite similar (because it's also based on the book of genesis) in the sense that transitioning is seen as blasphemy, but it's not as binary.

In the Jewish version of the Book of Genesis Eve created from Adam's rib, they both were one being that split apart into male and female. Androgynous people had to adhere to laws that affect both sexes, but the idea that they have to be one sex came up in early Christian Rome.

So yes you are right it's more specifically based on Jewish religious beliefs, but the western gender system is still based on a Christian form of those beliefs.

I think it's easier if we start with this fact: gender dysphoria isn't unique to transgender people. People who have undergone a forced sex change experience the exact same symptoms.

Imagine you were born as a male, but were given a sex change at birth and were raised as a girl. As soon as you can talk you start to utter the wish to be called a boy and that you don't want to wear dresses. Your parents tell you that you have a vagina and therefore are a girl. This goes on all your life and despite you feeling like a man inside, everyone insists on using female pronouns and treating you like a woman. This obviously makes you depressed and mentally ill.

What do you think would help you more, going through therapy until you accept that you are a woman or being able to live as a man?

Well we've been there and done that. We sometimes gave males that were born with a micropenis a sex change at birth because the doctors thought that a man with a small penis can find no acceptable place in society.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micropenis

From the 1960s until the late 1970s, it was common for sex reassignment and surgery to be recommended. This was especially likely if evidence suggested that response to additional testosterone and pubertal testosterone would be poor. With parental acceptance, the boy would be reassigned and renamed as a girl, and surgery performed to remove the testes and construct an artificial vagina.

Those poor souls developed gender dysphoria, because their innate gender identity didn't align with their body and role in society.

And well it's the same with transgender people. It doesn't matter if you got a forced sex change or if you were born with the wrong brain, in the end it's your innate gender identity that governs if you want to be a man or a woman, but not the sex you were assigned at birth.

And well transgender people evidently have a brain who's sex aligns with that they claim to be feeling:

http://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/

Transgender women tend to have brain structures that resemble cisgender women, rather than cisgender men. Two sexually dimorphic (differing between men and women) areas of the brain are often compared between men and women. The bed nucleus of the stria terminalus (BSTc) and sexually dimorphic nucleus of transgender women are more similar to those of cisgender woman than to those of cisgender men, suggesting that the general brain structure of these women is in keeping with their gender identity.

In 1995 and 2000, two independent teams of researchers decided to examine a region of the brain called the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc) in trans- and cisgender men and women (Figure 2). The BSTc functions in anxiety, but is, on average, twice as large and twice as densely populated with cells in men compared to women. This sexual dimorphism is pretty robust, and though scientists don’t know why it exists, it appears to be a good marker of a “male” vs. “female” brain. Thus, these two studies sought to examine the brains of transgender individuals to figure out if their brains better resembled their assigned or chosen sex.

Interestingly, both teams discovered that male-to-female transgender women had a BSTc more closely resembling that of cisgender women than men in both size and cell density, and that female-to-male transgender men had BSTcs resembling cisgender men. These differences remained even after the scientists took into account the fact that many transgender men and women in their study were taking estrogen and testosterone during their transition by including cisgender men and women who were also on hormones not corresponding to their assigned biological sex (for a variety of medical reasons). These findings have since been confirmed and corroborated in other studies and other regions of the brain, including a region of the brain called the sexually dimorphic nucleus (Figure 2) that is believed to affect sexual behavior in animals.

It has been conclusively shown that hormone treatment can vastly affect the structure and composition of the brain; thus, several teams sought to characterize the brains of transgender men and women who had not yet undergone hormone treatment. Several studies confirmed previous findings, showing once more that transgender people appear to be born with brains more similar to gender with which they identify, rather than the one to which they were assigned.

Transgender people have a brain that was made for the wrong sex and it's just massively easier to adapt their body to fit to their brain than to change their whole brain.

You could try to force them to be cis if you gave them enough medicine and electrical shocks, but all that damage would leave them basically mentally retarded. On the other hand a sex change surgery is much less invasive and has been shown to drastically reduce their suicide rates and to dramatically improve their mental health.

Non-Mobile link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micropenis

^{HelperBot v1.1 /r/HelperBot_ I am a bot. Please message /u/swim1929 with any feedback and/or hate. Counter: 203953}

Cis is a disgusting slur. Please use non transitioned individual. Using terms tied with such hate is absolutely bigoted.

So if a chemist talks about trans-isomers and cis-isomers are they being hateful? Or if they talk about transfats and cisfats? Is it hateful if I talk about places that are transatlantic and those that are cisatlantic?

Just because you never had any kind of higher education doesn't mean that normal terms are hateful.

It would be like using liposuction as treatment for anorexia. Agreed, it's ridiculous.

The very fact you spend this much time thinking about them may lead one to believe you have underlying issues regarding gender and mental stability.

See “The terrible fraud of transgender medicine” — Quentin Van Meter, MD (41:12 min) 18 Nov 2017

Ah, so you can't give an example of something you claim exists.... Lol. Stop making this so easy.

From which culture?

What is his goal?

I don't think they believe they will ever be 100% woman, but getting 90% there is better than being 0% there.

No just par for the course.

You get stumped and resort to ad hominems.

Its really more a sad state of affairs than it is triggering.

u/Go_Spurs_Go

Right? All those generations of humans raising children who may or may not have conformed to gender norms of the time and place just let their kids be. And guess what? They didn't have gender dysphoria until post-modernism came along and society started telling kids they could be anything they wanted. Before that, the child might grow up to be a well-adjusted gay person or a closeted transvestive (history is replete with secret transvestites who were heroes in their own right). But now, if little Johnny decides one day he wants to wear his sisters clothes, he must have gender dysphoria. He was born in the wrong body and mommy and daddy need to give him hormone suppression treatments, which, ironically, means he will never have offspring of his own. Convenient way to weed out the undesirables while parading the virtues of #bornthisway.

Let a kid do what he wants. But be certain, your decisions are probably not what your child would choose for themselves given the facts and the capacity to understand the long-term consequences of those actions (specifically drugging a child so they can more easily transition later when they might otherwise grow out of it).

Move goalposts much? What happened to one in a billion?

As for your question about trans people -- I only chimed in on this discussion because you said gender is binary and that chromosomes determine gender.

Clearly chromosomal variation among humans is (1) not reflective of the binary absolutism you profess and (2) clearly more common than the one in a billion figure you pulled out of your ass.

To me, 18/1000 is significant, but even that number doesn't account for the full range of chromosomal variation that occurs without resulting in a disjunct between phenotypic expression and chromosomal sex.

let's completely change our culture and society to let the[m] feel accepted.

Literally no one is talking about this as far as I can tell. But why do you think this is the case?

And would it really hurt if we helped these folks feel loved? Is your life, specifically, somehow worse off because of these issues?

One last thing to consider: only 2 or 3 out of 1000 babies are born deaf. But every TV and streaming device has closed captioning as an option. We have literally changed society for these 2 or 3 out of 1000. Is this an unfair accommodation by your standards?

You’re gonna have to move that goal post again when gene therapy becomes popular

But it is. These people have a problem with their visual identity and use permanent plastic surgeries to "match" it with their imagined one.

As a former childcare educator, letting kids experiment and roleplay, along with not forcing gender conformity and letting them decide what they like without bringing your hang-ups into it is anything but degenerate.

Raising a child as a mini-me and pushing your lost goals and desires on them along with teaching them indentitarianism is degenerate.

but if they can live as their preferred gender their mental health and suicide rates are similar to normal people.

Care to source that? From what I've read there's a high incidence of regret and suicide after sex change operations.