So what is the argument here, OP? You don't think we should pay any taxes? Do you think taxes should be paid, but are just too high? Or do you have a problem with the fact that its mandated and not a choice? Please explain.

we are just animals born on to this planet, we are here to eat, survive and reproduce.

Everything else is a construct that is imposed upon us by others. Everything else is oppression.

There is no law beyond Do What Thou Wilt :)

Isn't the highest tax bracket like 35% for the US in 2009? 1/3 is a bit different from 1/2. And that is for people with incomes over $370k. As you are in effect paying for services you have already received, is it fair that you should just decide not to pay? And you probably won't be shot, unless you pull a gun first, in which case you're dumb.

Between fed, state, fica for people who don't have many deductions - kids, investments, businesses, lawyers, accountants, etc the effective rate moves closer to 50%

So effectively, your young metro high earners have the highest effective tax rate of anyone. High income/high expenses/few or no deductions/no capital gains or other forms of wealth gains.

In fact the average person in the USA pays slightly less than 40% total taxes, which is one of the lowest rates amongst the major industrialized countries. And in fact the rich often pay less than average because of their ability to shelter large portions of their income, it doesnt take millions just to live.

Yes, but I am saying that the curve is other than what people think or the rate table would seem to show.

Young, single high-earning (75k-250k), low deductions, low investment people have the highest effective (de facto, whatever) rate in the USA. After that the higher you go, the more investments, deductions, lawyers, loopholes that those people have - below that, the rates are somewhat lower.

The short answer: the government is the schoolyard bully you defer to because the other children who could stand with you in solidarity against the bully are all divided.

If you don't pay your taxes you will get a letter. If you don't answer the letter or still refuse to pay you get a court date. If you don't show up for the court date the cops show up to your house. If you physically refuse the cops orders you will be shot. This is the ultimate truth that people in society don't want to talk about.

Uh . . . I think the cops would just arrest you.

Welcome to reddit!

That might be why so few people are preoccupied with this "fact".

Until the person refuses to be arrested.

If you get killed after this chain of events, it is directly because you resisted arrest, not because you didn't pay taxes. Probably because you resisted arrest in such a manner that you were deemed a hazard to others. Simply tying yourself to a tree or barricading yourself in a room will not get you killed. Tazed, maced, beaten, but not killed.

Also the great thing about a free country is you are free to leave. I'll come visit you in Somalia where you don't have to pay any taxes at all!

If you get killed after this chain of events, it is directly because you resisted arrest, not because you didn't pay taxes. Probably because you resisted arrest in such a manner that you were deemed a hazard to others. Simply tying yourself to a tree or barricading yourself in a room will not get you killed. Tazed, maced, beaten, but not killed.

Whoever kills the other guy first goes down in history as the good guy.

You should just not use the services those taxes pay for! Just make sure to stay off the interstate, city streets, sidewalks, out of schools, and libraries. Make sure you get the police to stop patrolling your area, and make sure not to call emergency services if you need help!

If you do these things, you'll have justification to bitch about taxes.

and aside from a pat on the back from you, what would this justification get me? my money would still be forcibly taken, as it already is for all the services I don't use, and never would agree to.

Yes, downvote the comment you disagree with.

Welcome to the real world. The United States comes with a TOS agreement. Part of this agreement states that you will pay taxes to live here. You accept this agreement by a)living in the country, and b)using government-provided services. If you were to use these services but deny acceptance of these terms, it would be an example of Unjust Enrichment. You are free to terminate this agreement at any time, to go live in a country which has more relaxed TOS.

Point being, you use government services. Therefore, you pay government taxes. Welcome to life; how it is, not how you think it should be.

Downvoted not because I disagree, but because I don't think you contributed anything to the discussion. Replied to because I disagreed.

You also didn't answer the point I raised, which didn't agree or disagree with "Unjust Enrichment" whatsoever, but the flipside of it: why am I required to pay for things I do not want or like?

BTW, your "TOS", if one should respect it, allows one to question it, poke it, bitch about it, try and amend it, enlighten others as to the folly of it, and many other things.

So if I locked you into a cell (which you could escape, but it would take a good amount of investment and hardship to begin to attempt), and I decide that I will feed you in exchange for every finger you cut off and give me, that you're only allowed to bitch if you don't eat your food? Preposterous.

Welcome to life; how it is, not how you think it should be.

Strangely enough, that's how you think it should be, and not how it is. Out here in the real world, we discuss things with people, often with both parties ending up altering their perception, which in turn alters their actions, which, hey, changes the way things 'are'.

Downvoted not because I disagree, but because I don't think you contributed anything to the discussion.

Bull. I pointed out (albeit in a smartass manner) that you use many government services which these taxes pay for. It was a valid point. You downvoted it because it wasn't a typical knee-jerk "I hate taxes too" remark and you didn't agree with it.

You also didn't answer the point I raised, which didn't agree or disagree with "Unjust Enrichment" whatsoever, but the flipside of it: why am I required to pay for things I do not want or like?

Because you don't get to pick and choose, and neither does the government. Have you ever been given a form, giving your consent for particular public services? Nope. You consent to these services by living here and accepting governmental services. Many of these services you will not use; however, you are able to use them at any point it might become necessary, because you pay for them.

Besides, can you imagine the almighty clusterfuck an individually-tailored tax program, based on chosen public services, would be?

BTW, your "TOS", if one should respect it, allows one to question it, poke it, bitch about it, try and amend it, enlighten others as to the folly of it, and many other things.

In fact in encourages this. I never claimed otherwise.

So if I locked you into a cell (which you could escape, but it would take a good amount of investment and hardship to begin to attempt), and I decide that I will feed you in exchange for every finger you cut off and give me, that you're only allowed to bitch if you don't eat your food? Preposterous.

This is a pretty extreme example, and not an analogous situation at all. First off, I do agree that moving to another country is difficult (lots and lots and lots of red tape in both countries), but it is doable, which you acknowledged. As for the whole finger analogy, it is just a bad comparison. The government takes your money. It sucks, but it is not something which will prevent you from living a normal life. You also have to eat; you don't have to use government services. My point was that, so long as you use government services, you don't really have much justification behind your complaints.

Strangely enough, that's how you think it should be, and not how it is. Out here in the real world, we discuss things with people, often with both parties ending up altering their perception, which in turn alters their actions, which, hey, changes the way things 'are'.

What exactly do you call what we are doing? Is this not a discussion? Have I claimed that you should not discuss this? No; I pointed out that you pay taxes for government services, many of which you use, and therefore your complaints lack major justification.

Edit - Yes, once again downvote because you don't agree.

Bull. I pointed out (albeit in a smartass manner) that you use many government services which these taxes pay for. It was a valid point. You downvoted it because it wasn't a typical knee-jerk "I hate taxes too" remark and you didn't agree with it.

Bull. Claims of mindreading notwithstanding, it was downvoted because what upon further discussion seems like you overstating your case initially seemed like an obvious troll. And you didn't point out anything about me, I'm not the OP. If you hadn't implied a total lack of justification in complaint, I wouldn't have cared.

In fact in encourages this. I never claimed otherwise.

If it encourages it, then surely that's all the justification anyone needs to bitch.

I think perhaps this stems from a difference in view of what is going on:

• If one believes that services are first utilized, then it makes sense and seems fair to pay the ensuing bill.
• If one believes that money is first stolen, then it seems fair to utilize what one can of what has already been stolen.

Neither of these are how the world actually works, and both have considerable problems when put into practice.

To be clear, I disagree with you on two major points:

1) That a victim can have the justification for their complaint removed by making the best out of the ensuing circumstances. Fill in the blanks with your own extreme example.

2) That government 'services' are practically inescapable at all, short of removing oneself from the government's jurisdiction.

• Money. Federal Reserve notes are, by delegation, a government service. Try using anything not based on those on a regular basis.
• Education. Even if you believe that public, state funded education serves the common good (which I don't), you could not possibly escape the use of this service; If it is beneficial, than even if I never went, never sent my children, I would still be benefiting from the change it wrought in those around me.
• Police, the judicial system, the penal system, the military, etc.

The point is that if one does not view these as a service, but indeed as a detriment (or largely if not completely so), one is immorally coerced into supporting their existence via taxation.

Now, if one does view these as beneficial, one is still immorally coerced into supporting their existence via taxation. Those who support them should have no problem paying for them, and would not require coercion.

It is not taxes or services that is at issue, but the coercion used in the collection of them.

and this

Point being, you use government services. Therefore, you pay government taxes.

is still just flat wrong. You say 'if A then B', when really the case is (if (A or not A) then B), which makes A wholly irrelevant to B.

Have I claimed that you should not discuss this?

Well...

Welcome to life; how it is, not how you think it should be.

does seem to imply it, yes. 'Accept things as they are, do not bother trying to make them fit your desires (through discussion or other means.)'

to your edit, that wasn't me.
but you know, believe whatever preconceptions make you comfortable.

We are enslaved. Is there any other way to view us? Sure we can argue to what degree, but enslavement is oppression, and taxation without representation is tyranny. The issue is that the people are to stupid and weak to organize, and when they do a secret government agency pays you a visit to get your mind right!

Hey, they have enough fear mongers on their payroll, they don't need your help.

The fact is: we aren't too stupid, we are becoming organized and we outnumber the bastards a million to one. What's the problem? They don't stand a chance! On top of that, they are vultures and cowards. Just because they have money and resources doesn't make them all powerful. We have spirit! They can not stand against us.

Once people realize a war is being waged on them, they wake up. It's only a matter of time until the whole world is awake to their schemes. It's time for us to change. Take the war to them. We the people at war! It's a war not for land, or resources. It is a war for minds. We will win it.

To be or not to be, that is the question. They want us not to be, we must choose that we will be.

Why don't people object to banks charging fees which works out just the same as a tax except the money doesn't go towards things like schools? Most people don't have the option of not using a bank.

...

Most people don't want the option of not using a bank.

fixed. Plus, banks compete on these fees, among other things. You retain choice, even if you forfeit choice in feeling that you must bank at all.

Oh yeah there is a whole lot of competition going on. Remember when you earned money on deposits? Now you pay for the privilege of accessing your money. How did competition lead to this?

It's a good point.

• They don't compete. They consolidate instead, which enables more consolidation, as the bigger the institution, the more they can spend on increasing market share

• They compete on other things. Personalized debit cards. Lower ATM fees. Longer lobby hours. More branches & ATMs.

• They spend more on advertising, which is effectively a swindle. If advertising cost more than it brought in, they wouldn't do it. Therefore, banking institutions that advertise are able to make more money than ones that don't simply by the act of asking you to bank with them. This is a slice of their budget not going towards improving their service.

It basically all comes down to, through various means, banks not losing money when they charge fees. Apparently the cost isn't high enough for it to affect clients to close their accounts. Whether this says more about the clients or the costs, I can't say.

BBBBAAAHH. BAAAAHH.