Preach.

I've been liking the idea of viewing the political spectrum as a circle, with totalitarianism at the top, anarchism (voluntarism) at the bottom, and left and right on their respective sides.

The reason I find this illustrative is that at the top of the circle, at authoritarianism, it doesn't really matter whether your politics are left or right, because your politics don't matter, only that of the ruling class does. Put another way, as a state becomes more totalitarian, the difference between left and right diminish.

Similarly, as you move downward towards anarchism, again the differences tend to diminish, at least in terms of state power. An anarcho-communist has a rather different philosophy than an anarcho-capitalist, but from the point of view of state power, it doesn't matter. Both (if they're sincere in their beliefs), want the end of all coercive state power and the flourishing of voluntary human freedom.

Sounds like it would make for a good visual representation of the political spectrum.

No, left means high taxes for the rich and a good social service net for poor and working-class people. It means a higher minimum wage, while right means no or little minimum wage. Left means universal health care, right means privatized health care. Left means more socialist programs, right means more privatization.

​

It's not that the terms don't mean anything; it's that kids these days don't know what they mean.

That's the history of what the terms mean and how they've been used all around the world.

Its not what they mean anymore.

I was a traditional lefty in the 90s. The left is a very different landscape now.

The right also.

I abstain.

No, you mean the Democratic Party is different now. The Democratic Party sucks from the top, but there are a lot of people right now working to change it for the better, and I applaud that effort.

How about we call it 'the visible left'. I know there are plenty of us that would prefer to adhere to the traditional meanings but we're not the majority in this world. At least not the vocal majority.

Its the same in Europe.

In Ireland the labour party have been essentially banned from most public protest, as they proved themselves to be nothing more than turncoats in their support of ruling party policies.

Yeah, I hear you, we should come up with creative terms like that. I know terms take on different meanings in different areas. I like the term "progressive" and use it to describe myself, but in some places I hear "progressive" is linked to identity politics, and I'm not into identity politics.

The sold-out labor movements that are interested in their own advancement rather than a broad progressive agenda are, I don't know, the phony establishment liberal left. They're the center-left, in a sense. They're not progressive. That's the language I'm using, at least, but I'm always flexible on language.

Yeah, I hear you, we should come up with creative terms like that. I know terms take on different meanings in different areas. I like the term "progressive" and use it to describe myself, but in some places I hear "progressive" is linked to identity politics, and I'm not into identity politics.

Like I said, I abstain. I cherry pick my political ideologies to line up with my moral compass. Most are liberal, some are quite conservative.

They're the center-left, in a sense. They're not progressive.

And I guess that's the problem. They need to be centered between the center and the far left.

While progressive (as we are both understanding it to mean) is one of the more palatable political ideologies, it also needs a good set of brakes. Without self awareness, an out of control progressive can easily swing hard left.

Don't say "the left" "the progressives" or any of that extremely generalizing nonsense as that's only legitimizing their psyop. There's no such thing as the hive mind entity called "thee left". Corporate media pushes that bullshit. The spectrum is big and left wingers don't always share the same beliefs and even some who claim to be left wing are not even left wing (e.g. many democrat politicians are wallstreet corporatist extremists e.g. Clinton/Obama like basically all Repubs, just slightly different shade of the same trickle down bullshit ideology that fucked the middle class and working class to benefit oligarchs/corps/banksters).

https://i.imgur.com/fUH4nZp.png

I'm center left wing myself (centrist is also fine with me) and I recommend these terms to describe the following beliefs:

SJW: (I don't think this is synonymous with "far left wingers" as they're not all SJWs)

Pushing gender fluidity/58 genders and trans stuff on young children, feminism (esp. third wave), muh "white privilege" divide and conquer, pro-mass immigration no matter what, "muh cis white male patriarchy!", "it's only racis if you have power" bullshit logic.

You can see these shills on compromised r/socialism, r/latestagecapitalism, r/fullcommunism, r/completeanarchy (allegedly "left wing" subs yet are soaked in SJW shills, tankies, etc. who censor and ridicule anything against the establishment narrative) There's also the anti-capitalist rhetoric in some of them which is deliberately to slow the revolution down. Capitalism is flawed but populist socialistic capitalism blends (FDR/Bernie/)

Legit left wing:

Pro-human rights (incl. LGBT but not the twisted shit like "forced equality" and pushing it on children), anti-mass immigration (not blaming non-criminal immigrants but fighting the root causes of mass immigration: banksters' wars and transnational corporate jobs outsourcing globalist economics), maybe humanist but not feminist, pro-worker rights, anti-war, pro-free speech, anti-authoritarian at least for the most part.

But you will have shills pushing partisan bullshit or identity politics branding. I don't have near zero faith in Repubs and Trump, and little faith in the Democrat party after what happened to Bernie but some think it's going to get cleaned up from the inside. We will have to see. Corporate donors, superPACs, etc. = automatic shill probably. That's my litmus test.... for now.

Again, what are you saying? That the Left in Asia and Africa are different? Evidence? What the fuck are you talking about?

I'm sure, but I still don't know what you're getting at substantively. It's all good. I was just explaining what the terms left and right mean when they're used in a political context. I'm well-aware that in so many places, including here in the states, the liberal-leaning party has been corrupted by corporate influences and identity politics has been forced into the dialogue by big foundations, blurring the situation a lot. But it's not like the terms don't have meaning.

My own politics are decidedly left-wing. I believe in universal health care and a high minimum wage. That said, I'm a drug legalization activist and unifier overall, and I've worked with a lot of libertarians who disagree with me on social services but agree on personal freedom. That's ok, I don't hate my right-leaning friends; we just have our disagreements. The only people I don't even waste time talking to are fundamentalist religious fanatics, homophobes, racists, those sorts of people.

You my friend are a left libertarian like me. The best kind.

I'm well-aware that in so many places, including here in the states, the liberal-leaning party has been corrupted by corporate influences and identity politics has been forced into the dialogue by big foundations, blurring the situation a lot.

Hit the jackpot. The corporatists try to shift the spectrum artificially and the SJW ideology is the identity politics that are used to discredit real pro-worker leftism. There's nothing left wing about third wave feminism, blaming "white cis male patriarchy" for what the banksters, corporations, wallstreet, M.I.C., secret societies, etc. are doing.

The gov is supposed to protect us from corps, criminals and warlords. Remove the conflicts of interest (bribery/blackmail/corporate money in politics) and we have a chance of getting our gov back. Like a cop is supposed to be on our side.

I try to encourage anti-extremism and unification of (non-authoritarian forms of) very moderate right, centrist and center left economics.

https://i.imgur.com/fUH4nZp.png

But some people are ideological zealots with partisan programming. Bullshit like "we need a free market which means no regulations!" which is a bullshit shill definition. Free market just means "perfectly competitive market" which is a theoretical thing like anarcho-communism (I think it won't be possible for hundreds of years, unlimited resources and tech which may be suppressed).

The closest to a perfect market (ethical and efficient and fair) is a FAIR market. This means checks and balances. Democratic regulations (the good ones not the cronyist obstructions and corporatist ghost contracts). Workers must be protected or we're fucked.

America is marketed extremism. The libertarian party is extreme right libertarian which is a trojan horse. Very moderate right, centrist and left liberarianism exist and are waaaaay more anti-establishment. But that goes against their narrative.

Amazing that adults still believe this bull. As if half a century of evidence isn’t enough.

Your post didn't mention what you think is "bull." Talk people, spit it out- evidence of what?

Left and right should be defined by their actions, not some bull definition history has proven is false.

What does that even mean, that the definition has been proven false? That doesn't really make sense. You mean that parties such as the Democratic Party here in the states aren't truly working for poor people's interests, they've sold out? That's true, but they're not the real left; in fact, they're blocking the real left, as represented by Bernie Sanders and Tulsi Gabbard and others, from taking power.

Meanings can change too. If the left, or right, side of the two party system behaves a certain way should we continue to use these definitions that don’t describe them?

Do we relabel the two parties as neither left or right or do we redefine those that represent the original ideals of the ‘left and right’? Who cares really, but it seemed obvious to me at least that the OP was discussing what we see as left and right politics in reality - not the definitions that no longer match our reality.

There is no "THE left" entity. We are not hive minded partisan robots. And even the Dem party hasn't been left wing for decades. There are fixed labels. Both parties have been NEOliberals (corporatists and cronyists) since Reagan and NEOconservatives (authoritarian warmongers) for even longer. Obama/Clinton/Bush/Romney/Cruz/etc. are all NEOlibs and NEOcons simultaneously.

90% of media owned by 6 corps - corporate media pushes a false spectrum. This is why they shat on Bernie (European centrist/American slightly left aka social democracy mixed economics socialistic capitalism).

SJW culture is not left wing but a modern psyop ideology pushed by the establishment. There's nothing progressive about third wave feminism, race baiting and mass immigration (I'm not shitting on immigrants but rather the root causes like globalist outsourcing economics and banksters' wars).

Identity politics = partisan marketing, divide and conquer, and strawman arguments.

Go outside and talk to real people, the media (and others) certainly push the division, but it’s clearly there for all to see. Partisan hive minded robots is exactly why we are where we are.

I appreciate your passion, but to deny reality isn’t going to do anyone any good.

I'm not denying reality. Not everyone is a hive minded. You will get tired of confused normies figuring things out but you will find smart people who know the truth too. We shouldn't call arbitrary vague groups "THE left" especially when not all of them are left wing and not all left wingers think the same anyway. It's peer pressure and propaganda from the SJW psyop. Many people saw through the "vote Clinton because we need a woman president" bullshit because it was EASY to break the argument even for many normies. "Uh Clinton is corrupt, I don't care about the fucking gender, vote Jill Stein if you're so obsessed with a female pres".

What I'm saying is it's dangerous to try to shift the spectrum and claim "this pocket of SJW brainwashed morons and normies must be what leftism is" is just wrong. It's like "Wow American normies don't care about NSA spying, I guess this is what freedom is in the land of the free". It puts strawman arguments to use for shills.

So I'm an actual left winger who cares about fellow workers and small/medium ethically run businesses. And yet shills will shit on leftism just by yelling "FEMINIST WHITE GENOCIDE ANTI-FREE SPEECH PROPAGANDA LEFTISM!!!!". It's fucked. If it's not leftist, don't call it leftism man. Intellectual dishonesty is what it is. SJWism is a shitty modern psyop invention. Even politicians who people can tell are very right wing economically, push SJWism as well! (Angela Merkel, Hillary Clinton, Theresa May) lol

Some things I feel you left out: Todays left means open borders, completely abolishing ICE, keeping illegals in our country and making them citizens, raising taxes, chasing away breadwinner manufacturing jobs with ridiculously high business taxes and replacing them with welfare instead. They also believe in things like white privilege, patriarchy, the evil straight-white-christian-male, safe spaces on college campus', hate speech, shutting down opposing opinions, ,,,fuck. I feel like I could go on and on

Also they love the idea of censorship, creating a blended race to make us indistinguishable and easier to control, they definitely have something to do with the increase in estrogen in males and the feminization of men(population control, and again, to make us indistinguishable from one another). Not to mention both sides of the coin both D&R fuck kids and human sacrifice at the highest levels no matter what pol affiliation.

make us indistinguishable

Easier to advertise to.

As I recall, it was a 6-3 Republican court in 2010 that permitted a federal felony charge on those who try to tell those on the terrorist list to give up terrorism.

It was also a 5-4 court with Republicans on the 5 side who elevated corporations so that they could have the rights of people, and then contorted money to be speech.

That is a lot of fantasy from a Republican.

That’s all they have. Fantasy

How so?

You have strawmanned your political rival that somehow encompasses everything you don't like. Lucky you.

No substance. Specifically where I wrong? How about nothing vague. How about nothin personal. If I’m wrong, where and how, specifically.

That's a fairly irrational response to what I said.

Bold letters and everything.

Have a good day fantasizing. I wish I had an enemy as clearly defined as you have yours.

Not an argument.

Then you agree, any party pushing such ridiculous policies, should be opposed at all cost.

I'm not arguing with a tribal republican and I'm not going to make a point by point comment to your political fallacies.

No amount of downvotes will hide the delusion of a political partisan propaganda account.

a tribal republican

Funny coming from a stalin apologist.

We all agree, any party pushing such ridiculous policies, should be opposed at all cost

Funny coming from a Republican apologist.

Or maybe those policies are perfect because they harm you.

Some things I feel you left out: Todays left means open borders, completely abolishing ICE, keeping illegals in our country and making them citizens, raising taxes, chasing away breadwinner manufacturing jobs with ridiculously high business taxes and replacing them with welfare instead. They also believe in things like white privilege, patriarchy, the evil straight-white-christian-male, safe spaces on college campus', hate speech, shutting down opposing opinions, ,,,fuck. I feel like I could go on and on

I've stated my beliefs plainly. You haven't challenged anything I believe. You haven't stated your beliefs. You haven't pointed out anything specific. No substance whatsoever. Just vague bullshit. "I'm not arguing with you" Imagine that.

I'm not "challenging your beliefs". You've stated a bunch of fantasy political opposition and I called you out.

I'm not arguing with you. I'm saying that you are outright fantasizing republican propaganda.

But everything you said sounds like something the American elites don't want. I mean... if Mexicans harm you this much? Then more power to them. More Mexicans and open borders and all of that mean NOTHING to me. I barely have an opinion on them. But if it hurts an elitist Republican partisan reddit propagander than hell yeah more safe spaces on college campus's!

What's next, you gonna get violent? All because the rich got taxed more? What's the matter does the rich getting taxed hurt you? Oh noes

You stand for nothing, correct? That's all I hear. Just anti-republican with no core values or beliefs?

I can tell you my core values don't rely on race or who lives on what imaginary lines.

But I can tell you right now that if illegals in your country do you so much harm you need to lie about "your opponent" then by golly I want your country to flood with illegals. I want you to feel so outnumbered and alone. Also if "white privilege, patriarchy, the evil straight-white-christian-male" matters to you then I double hope for it.

Those are my beliefs now. They aren't the views of "every leftist". Most people I believe are centrist. By your logic, I can find videos of Obama and Clinton talking about the need to improve immigration and what magically they aren't leftist? The Evil Leftist Muslim Obama DID NOT abolish ICE himself? gasp TRAITOR!! HE'S A RIGHTIE!!!

I didn't ask what you don't believe in. I didn't ask your opinions are on my views. I didn't ask the views of every leftist. I didn't ask what my logic is. I didn't ask how you want me to feel.

I said you appear to have no core values or beliefs. By your own submission, your core beliefs is to oppose my beliefs. Nice.

You appear to have a lot of violent tendencies against those you deem "the other side". Those seem to be your core values or beliefs. Because what if you suddenly flipped sides, then you'd still be the same person. Yeah, I oppose your beliefs somewhat.

You know, nationalism can be a leftist quality as well. Stalin - "Socialism in One Country."

You appear to have a lot of violent tendencies

LOL i'm done here

Hm. A lot of aggressive comments towards "the libs". Defending the rich, passionately I might add. A lot of just random cuss words that really emphasize your anger at "the libs" and the strawarmy you built. It's like you can see the seething rage with which you defend the "right" and attack "the leftist libs" in those comments with the very organized and very grassroots looking links to discredit said libs.

While I agree that both sides must come together, it just seems that when they do, the people always lose. They will come together for their donors, but never for the people.

The people need to replace the system that allows the donor class to control the representatives. Until the money train is removed from DC, the representatives will continue to represent them.

Any politician who takes corporate money to sell the workers out for the corporations/banksters/wallstreet/M.I.C./secret societies is no left winger but a compromised corporatist puppet. Corporatism/NEOliberalism is extreme right trickle down economics. In the corporate media they re-brand it as "liberalism" and "conservativism" and get sheep running back to the parties that back stab them each time they come into power.

I'm conflicted about the Dem party. They screwed over Bernie but some have faith in the party will change from the inside with grassroots movements. I'll believe it if there's legit pro-worker policies and no corporate donors. As for the Repub party, long gone insane. And I don't believe in Trump's 3D chess. While I'm not certain, it sounds like Republican/Trump marketing.

Can someone please tell that to the mods here?

Most people here have transcended the false polemics of the two party system.

lol

It's true that we use both hands to pick up a heavy burden. That both left and right feet follow each other to allow us movement. That night follows day, there are many dualities. But to sum up politics in a binary way seems arbitrary to me. The lumbering giant of the state does put left and right in front but the direction remains the same. Trying to assign virtues and failings to either side. Just by acknowledging there maybe a common ground. A fulcrum if you will adds a 3rd view. Being a moderate is a tricky position it seems. I'd rather be in the middle than lopsided. I think we are sold a dream of chance and progress but really the two party system is just business as usual

The major reason I'm leaving politics to pursue higher endeavors. I'm going back to school for engineering so i can build my own ship and get the fuck off this rock.

Complete bullshit premise just by the fact corporatist wallstreet warmongers Clinton/Obama are more similar to Reagan/Romney/Cruz/Rubio/Bush etc. All shitty extreme right economics and very authoritarian. There hasn't been a left wing force in power for decades. You also sound intellectually dishonest when you claim to want union between left/right yet only very recently were you dividing people by claiming "the tolerant left is censoring". Wrong. Corporations as part of the extreme right economic establishment are.

https://i.imgur.com/fUH4nZp.png

FDR/Eisenhower/Teddy Roosevelt/JFK > Reagan/Bush/Obama/Clinton.

SJWs vs muh far right is horseshit pushed by the establishment (remember Antifa VS Neonazi psyop). The extreme right economic corporate establishment promoted SJWism (I wouldn't call this very modern psyop ideology "far left" as even some far left people may be anti-SJW depending on their beliefs).

And being anti-mass immigration is not socially "far right" nazi shit like the corporatist (economically far right) media claim. They're pushing identity politics and extremism. I am center left economically, socially non-authoritarian (left libertarian) and want to attack the root causes of mass immigration, not shit on non-criminal immigrants. Divide and conquer is the establishment's tool. Don't bother with bullshit like trans bathrooms and borders......go straight for the fucking money trail.

Corporate money in politics is the first obstacle. Then we have to deal with the private cronyist FED, elite central banksters, M.I.C. and secret societies. But step 1 will weaken the establishment dramatically buying us time to break up big corporations and reform elections and currency.

This is approximately the NWO conspiracy:

https://i.imgur.com/bNz2DHP.jpg

It’s crazy how people still believe in the left and right bullshit

It's crazy how people still fall for this bullshit "both sides are the same" nonsense despite all the evidence to the contrary.

The left corresponds to change. Morpheus means change. Neo was looking for change in the Matrix, but when everything was said and done, The Matrix did not change.

When the word change is uttered by TPTB, what they really mean is "more money for me". There is no bird. You're right about the dichotomy, but it's a false one. The wings don't actually exist - not even as metaphors. The truth of the matter is generally rich vs. poor and they will never come together. We use words like right and left as labels for some kind of broad heuristic description because they're used by the mass media, not because they're useful

Since nobody seems to be able to define the conceptual words, why use them? There are perfectly good words we can use that are not so confusing: Democrats and Republicans.

Since these terms represent the big parties they mean what they say they mean, by definition, they are platforms, not concepts.

For example, Democrats are against corporate personhood, Republicans are for corporate personhood. Republicans are against net neutrality, Democrats are for net neutrality. Democrats are for expanding citizen health coverage, Republicans are for eliminating health coverage.

Intelligent normie wisdom

The wings of the Dodo are short, but its beak is long. This beak represents the anvil that crushes the coconuts of the islands in which it lives. But if it confuses a cannon ball for a coconut than it in turn is dashed on the rock of fire.

The eagle of freedom cannot fly without its two wings, the very tension they provide is what keeps the great bird aloft.

Yes yes there all capitalists

I'm really sick of dumb asses repeating this insanely ignorant statement. YEAH OKAY, BECAUSE THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HARD LEFT SOCIALISTS AND FAR RIGHT OLIGARCHS. What a bunch of horse shit, go take a political science class. Not everyone is a stupid sheep incapable of critical thinking or understanding things.

The bird that they flip at the common citizen.

The closest binary system I could find is National Socialism.

Again, what are you saying? That the Left in Asia and Africa are different? Evidence? What the fuck are you talking about?

I'm sure, but I still don't know what you're getting at substantively. It's all good. I was just explaining what the terms left and right mean when they're used in a political context. I'm well-aware that in so many places, including here in the states, the liberal-leaning party has been corrupted by corporate influences and identity politics has been forced into the dialogue by big foundations, blurring the situation a lot. But it's not like the terms don't have meaning.

My own politics are decidedly left-wing. I believe in universal health care and a high minimum wage. That said, I'm a drug legalization activist and unifier overall, and I've worked with a lot of libertarians who disagree with me on social services but agree on personal freedom. That's ok, I don't hate my right-leaning friends; we just have our disagreements. The only people I don't even waste time talking to are fundamentalist religious fanatics, homophobes, racists, those sorts of people.