some people have a real problem with the opposite sex

All I needed to read here was “why do women have the final decision in an abortion” to know you aren’t worth the time.

No I read it. Hence why I said it doesn’t belong on this sub... there’s no topic in it that even remotely appears to be a conspiracy.

r/lostredditors

Wanting to discuss the body agency of a fetus is not a conspiracy and neither is the topic of who’s choice it is to decide on an abortion.

Is that really what you think he meant?

I fell like it's a great topic for the sub to discuss.

Sure, as soon as you point out which part of this conversation is a conspiracy.

This has nothing to do with feminism. For fucks sake dude, you’re daft. Did you mistake r/conspiracy for r/the_donald?

Are you just made no one wants to sleep with you?

Your disregarding them on the other comment so I’ve given up on any form of conversation, aside from that I’ve already mentioned my point here of no one discussing anything that resembles a conspiracy. This is the first time I’ve seen such a ridiculous topic here.

No I have, you just refuted them by disregarding my topics and saying “YoUrE jUsT A vIcTiM oF pRoPaGaNdA” and offering no counter points.

Now this has gotten a bit silly.

This whole conversation was deluded with dismissing my points. At no part was it not silly, hence why mods have deleted several comments.

It's been brought up here many times before. The whole push between women and men are equal, shouldnt the father have a choice in the matter. I've met guys before that didnt want the mother to get an abortion, it can cause emotional trauma also.

Ha, male emotions do matter. If they want true equality in this matter, men deserve a say also.

I feel like a bunch of that is manufactured to make the news/social media generate $$$.

Says the equal rights proponent?

Feminism itself is a conspiracy theory according to Bill Cooper and other exposed documents. So, yes it belongs in this sub.

Take your bullshit elsewhere your just trying to water down a once good subreddit. Fuck you

Perhaps men shouldn't have the final say if they're getting a vasectomy, either

And as long as the baby is unborn, it's still part of the mother's body?!

Don't you think a unborn is part of its mother?

Does not answer my question.

It is literally not.

We'll never agree bc I don't believe a cluster of cells = a baby. Women spontaneously abort in very early stages of pregnancy ALL THE TIME. Their body is releasing a cluster of cells unable to continue growing for whatever reasons. Late stage abortions are a different story, when actual body parts have developed into a body. That, to me, is when a baby is formed.

If it can't sustain itself on its own in 6 weeks, then no, not fully formed. We're clearly not going to change each other's minds... Sorry.

My bad. I made the assumption it was implied that being fully formed means being self sufficient. Clearly we're on different pages and you're not going to convince me otherwise. Let it go. Agree to disagree

Funny comment when you can't win an argument. Cheers

i feel pity for you

You're missing my point, which is not wrong. A penis is attached to a man's body, so he gets the final decision over what happens to HIS BODY.

If you could believe in reincarnation this would be an irrelevant argument... That soul will get down here one way or another, just may not be the host of first choice

Oh, far more than you think

A better comparison would be a vasectomy to tubal ligation.

The error you've made is that ending a pregnancy does not permanently sterilize the woman, and a man getting a vasectomy does not end any lives in the process.

The issue is not so straight forward as women's rights vs. men's rights. The issue is: at what point does a fetus have rights?

I don't believe a clump of cells has any rights... Not till fully formed and able to sustain life on its own. Then it's a different story

Neither should have the final say. Both should have the final say, together. Someone should speak for the child who is not allowed a defense.

fathers should be able to abort their child as well.

Nothing about that is equality. It’s not his body.

On another note you two are perfect for each other. When you boys tying the knot?!

In her body. She’s the one who would have to go through the procedure. She’s the one who has been carrying and nurturing the womb. She’s the one being inconvenienced and having her body ravaged.

We should have no say, if you don’t want a kid don’t nut in her. If you do want a kid find someone who wants to spend their life with you.

You thinking that you can decided what is an inconvenience to someone is disgusting. I fucking hate kids, I’d never want one. It’d be an inconvenience. Some chicks also don’t want children, having a kid would be an inconvenience and could interrupt their career. It’s not the 1920’s, a female can make decisions for themselves and aren’t just baby carriers.

You seem like the kind of dude who expects a girl who was raped to keep the kid (I.e. a sleezeball).

I’ve worked with them and dealt with my friends enough to know they’re just screaming little shit sacks that never asked to be born into a world with no purpose. I’m happy not wasting my paychecks away, I can go on vacation and see the world without a ridiculous hindrance.

Just a real big INCONVENIENCE.

Yup. I’m broken because I don’t want the same thing from my life as you. You can’t drag a child to a third world country or to hike up mountains across the world. I don’t want kids, a lot of people don’t. You can’t force someone to have or want kids.

Of course they love their kids, I have no feelings towards a child. I’ve never smiled when I’ve seen one I cringe when I hear them cry. Nothing about that sack of genes brings any sort of happiness to me.

It’s really sad that you can’t see how disgusting of a “human” you are.

You’re the one upset that I want a different life than you and don’t want children. The fact that you can’t comprehend that not everyone is the same is pretty idiotic.

Good one, what are you a 13 year old from 4chan?

You have the mentality of a child because you can’t comprehend the idea of someone having an enjoyable life if they don’t want the same exact things out of life as you.

There is the real problem. Why do so many of us feel like we have no purpose? That life has no purpose? I get why you would not want to bring another human here, if you feel that way.

There really isn’t a purpose to life if you don’t believe in God other than to be as happy as possible in the current moment. I’m happy with my own life, I just don’t care for kids. Never have, I’m happier without them and am able to live my life to the degree I want to live it to more easily.

Generally speaking the purpose of life in general is to reproduce and carry on the species. But with intelligence in a species comes the ability of choice. Inevitably there will always be people who don’t want children.

It is of course okay if you do not personally want children

Interesting how we all got convinced that a “career” is an acceptable replacement for family. For love. I am glad I am waking up to this brainwashing before it is entirely too late for me.

That’s not brainwashing. Some people don’t like or want kids, get over it. Anything is an acceptable alternative to having a family. Thinking that others should determine what you want to do with your life is fucked up.

I sincerely believe we have been manipulated. All the media celebrating prolonged adolescence, Material existence, promiscuity. the Convincing of young people to get useless degrees that put them too far in debt- to ever buy a home. Guilting us with tales of global warming and over population ... even though most people in the West have less than two children. Less than replacement. Feminism actually encouraging woman to be less feminine- to look down on motherhood. I look at all of that and it is hard not to wonder what game is being played.

I believe you’re referring to the NWO and their plan to decrease the human population, right?

It’s certainly an interesting theory, I don’t necessarily agree with it. I think it all just depends on where you live and what you enjoy in life. I’d say around 40% of my graduating class is already married with kids or has a kid and I’m only 25%.

I truly think that father should have a choice in the matter.

How so?

Well no shit. A lot of people that are told what to think and not being taught how to on their own.

If a man wants a child, and the woman doesn't - What happens?

If a man wants a child, and the woman doesn't - What happens?

That's a convo I had with the wife last night. It's the womans body but a little part of that child is still a part of the father. I wish I had a better response for ya bud.

Feminism should be about freeing both genders. Men in my opinion , should be fighting for more time with their children as well - Paternal leave , diaper change tables In mens bathrooms , flextime etc. at this moment most of the responsibility of a baby seems to fall on the mother. If men are encouraged to be more involved in raising children... it would make sense to me that they should have more say is whether or not it is born.

So then what’s the answer if she wants an abortion and he wants the child?

Know the values of the person you are putting your penis in I guess is step one

Seems like a logical first step, I can agree with that.

Have you ever changed your mind on something?

Are you a mind-reader?

People change.

Over time yes. But the woman’s stance on abortion should not change a few weeks after sex ? If you are totally against abortion, make sure the person who you are having sex with agrees.

When faced with the reality of a major decision, your mind absolutely can change very quickly.

You might even change your mind, no matter how certain you feel about it right now.

It is possible ofcourse, still doesn’t hurt to have those sort of conversations beforehand

at this moment most of the responsibility of a baby seems to fall on the mother

Men can't breastfeed. So it's inherently imbalanced by a simple matter of biology.

... not al babies breast feed. But I agree the mother will always hold the greater burden.

It's her body.

I fully support women in the right to choose.

Fuck yes. They’re the ones that are giving up a part of their life and inherently putting themselves at risk.

It’s also the baby’s body. Who speaks for this woman or man?

None should speak for it. It is a person. The dehumanization of any human has never lead us anywhere good. So soon we forget and treat convenience as Paramount to truth and humanity.

Your logic isn’t linear. Proponants of Feminism is equality in all experiences that are equally available to both genders. It does not presume to deny the physiological differences between genders, but it does say that the social definition of what genders are capable of is inherently limiting.

It’s the responsibility of the woman to ensure hospitable conditions for the fetus, to endure nausea and headaches, and to sacrifice her body, time and energy to nurturing the growth of the fetus and to assume all risk (including death) associated with pregnancy and childbirth as well as post partum physiological side-effects (permanent changes, nerve damage, painful healing, infections, milk production, hormone crash etc).

Pregnancy isn’t a participatory experience, outside of the initial conception and final expulsion, it happens to you.

When so much of the experience is unilateral, you can’t be surprised that the decision making power resides with the person having the experience.

Until men can equally share the inherent risks and responsibilities assumed during pregnancy/childbirth, this isn’t a conversation.

Your post conflated feminist equality and abortion/personal physical autonomy.

I think I missed the part where financial liability was discussed. Or maybe that happened when you moved the goalpost of this conversation.

Did you forget that in consenting to sex one assumes the associated risks? Whether that’s emotional vulnerability, communicable diseases or pregnancy. Everyone has the ability to limit those potentials, there are many control methods and they can be applied in multiplicity.

If you want to limit the risk, you can choose to inhibit your body’s ability to procreate. if you want to eliminate the risk you can choose to engage in forms of intimacy that don’t carry the risk.

What you don’t get to choose is what another person experiences.

Mothers don’t subject men to becoming fathers, they uphold men to the responsibility that they assumed when they chose to engage in a consensual act that carried the possible outcome of fatherhood as a risk.

If your concerns are financial it’s cheaper to get a vasectomy then an abortion. In fact, it’s cheaper still to avoid the dating realm altogether. Probably a good idea in your case.

I like you.

2 questions relative to your response.

Should men be able to hold women to the responsibility they assumed in making the same choice?

Does the assertion; "What you don’t get to choose is what another person experiences", imply that one DOES in fact get to choose what they experience?

Parenthood is equally available to both genders.

It is not only the responsibility of the woman to ensure safety for the unborn child in her womb. Her partner and support system are also very much a part of protecting and providing for their safety and health.

Pregnancy and birth benefit from emotional, spiritual, physical support from men, friends, family, society. It is not a solo sport. It happens to the whole community.

Men risk a lot —losing their beloved partners, their beloved child, physical changes that affect the relationship. Men and women become one. So they both endure the pregnancy, if you are honest about it.

Turning it into a contest and claiming the only affected is the pregnant gender is ridiculous.

I believe you’re referring to the NWO and their plan to decrease the human population, right?

It’s certainly an interesting theory, I don’t necessarily agree with it. I think it all just depends on where you live and what you enjoy in life. I’d say around 40% of my graduating class is already married with kids or has a kid and I’m only 25%.

Because we need to implement paper abortions in the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_abortion

Paper abortion, also known as a financial abortion or a statutory abort,[1] is the proposed ability of the biological father, before the birth of the child, to opt out of any rights, privileges, and responsibilities toward the child, including financial support.[2][3][4] By this means, before a child is born, a man would be able to absolve himself of both the privileges and demands of fatherhood.[1][5][6][7]

The concept of a paper abortion was first introduced in Denmark in 2000 by the socioeconomicist Henrik Platz. He says that it is necessary from an egalitarian perspective, to ensure that women and men have equal rights under the law. According to a Gallup poll from 2014 and earlier polls, between 40% and 70% of Danes agree with legalizing paper abortion.[1]

I’m betting feminists would be anti-paper abortion even though a man isn’t necessary to raise a child, according to them.

I think this would bring unwanted pregnancy numbers way down if women knew they couldn’t trap men with pregnancies.

Oh wow, this would clear up loads of these abortion issues in America.

As someone who literally died giving birth : Fuck you, fuck you very much!

If you are "okay" with killing your own unborn child, you are likely going to be a pretty shitty parent. The world has tons of shitty parents.

It's probably best for mankind if these people never breeded at all when the time finally suits them.

I'm always amazed when my pro abortion friends are excited to be pregnant with gender reveal parties, baby showers, etc.

You can't celebrate or be excited to have a baby if you are also okay killing it within the same timeframe.

The hypocrisy is mind numbing.

Whatever your cut off timeframe is for abortion is when you can finally be happy to be pregnant.

And as long as the baby is unborn, it's still part of the mother's body?!

Wanting to discuss the body agency of a fetus is not a conspiracy and neither is the topic of who’s choice it is to decide on an abortion.

You're missing my point, which is not wrong. A penis is attached to a man's body, so he gets the final decision over what happens to HIS BODY.

Ha, male emotions do matter. If they want true equality in this matter, men deserve a say also.

Yup. I’m broken because I don’t want the same thing from my life as you. You can’t drag a child to a third world country or to hike up mountains across the world. I don’t want kids, a lot of people don’t. You can’t force someone to have or want kids.

Of course they love their kids, I have no feelings towards a child. I’ve never smiled when I’ve seen one I cringe when I hear them cry. Nothing about that sack of genes brings any sort of happiness to me.

Does not answer my question.

So then what’s the answer if she wants an abortion and he wants the child?

Says the equal rights proponent?

It is of course okay if you do not personally want children

at this moment most of the responsibility of a baby seems to fall on the mother

Men can't breastfeed. So it's inherently imbalanced by a simple matter of biology.