It's a tough pill to swallow, because it forces you to rethink everything - and that can be too much to handle for some.

When I finally sat down in 2005 to think about 9/11 it lead to me leaving Christ, Christianity and monotheism... so yes, you're absolutely right.

EVERYTHING must be rethought.

Quite curious about that. What was the train of thought that led you to change your spiritual beliefs?

Well how could the events be any other way than they are? How could the official story be bogus, and yet many many many many people believe it to be true?

I had to ask myself 'Are there any other instances of a mammoth amount of relatively smart people believing a lie?' and to this I could not answer because my own life, traditions and trajectory were solidified in beliefs that I could not question.

And if I could not question my own life, I could not question anything else. Yet I still felt uneasy when looking at videos and reading discussions about 9/11, Iraq, Afghanistan and other military endeavors.

So I began a 2-year journey (this involved lots of bible reading) into how rational and worthwhile my relationship with Christ was... and really, who WAS Christ?

Once my faith began to crack, it was made crystal clear to me how people could believe a lie and how people could fight to make sure nothing shakes that lie, lest their whole lives and understanding of reality come crashing down...into their own footprint.

Today I would not consider myself a truther, nor would I call myself an atheist. In both the sense of God and that faithful day, I remain to be an agnostic and unless proof descends from the sky regarding either matter, I will likely expire as an agnostic.

edit: between 2001 and 2005 I was very interested in going to war for revenge... now I am going to University to study political science.

I commend you for searching your soul for answers to the questions you are not allowed to ask.

Maybe this will help you: Atheist has, unfortunately, a broad connotation in modern society. It's become a religion of its own in many senses of the word. I am not Atheist.

I am non-theist. I prescribe to no religion nor God nor gods. I am human, and live my life in ways that I feel are a benefit to society, because I benefit greatly from society myself.

Downvoted for calling atheism a religion and then calling yourself a non-theist. Its the same damn thing and neither one is a religion.

No, you're missing my point. Society, which is dominated by theists, defines atheism a specific way. And Atheists (capital A) adhere to a specific set of beliefs, as defined by Atheism. And as much as Atheism is a correct viewpoint (as I observe the universe), the term has a very negative connotation even in modern society. That is changing, thankfully.

I call myself non-theist specifically to avoid being cast as a follower of someone else's viewpoint. I have derived my views of the universe from my own experiences, not because I believe someone else's experiences are correct.

You can choose to be offended by that if you will. That's up to you.

There is no capital A. There is no Church of Atheism. atheists do not believe in god(s). That is all.

You can be holier than thou if you want, but I'd rather not. Atheism defines a principle, belief, or movement of non-theism. And although atheists don't congregate en masse, they do share a set of principles like any organized religion.

Call it what you will.

Oh, and yes, there is a Church of Atheism.

What are all these "principles" of atheism other than the obvious of no belief in god?

Here are 15 from one of the non churches.

Oh, so Fun is a principle of Atheism? Hilarious. Does that mean when i'm not having fun I'm not an atheist?

If there's a Church Of Scientology, then there's a Church Of Atheism.

False. Atheism has taken on it's own dogma that is just as damaging and close minded as the religions they rail against.

Agnosticism (of which I am closest) is something else all together.

Thank you for your heartfelt response. My journey was a similar one of questioning authority and religion. I've found organized religion to be a fraud, and believe that as in all things, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Either way, the questioning for me, hasn't stopped. I don't really think it ever will.

I'm gonna use that.

How can an entire government conceal the truth about 9/11?

How can an entire religion conceal the truth about those of other faiths?

I can understand what HaightnAshbury was saying from my own journey - 9/11 made me question authority to a very personal level - I would imagine what HaightnAshbury did was similar in their relationship to religion.

Sometimes I wish I could go back to a more...blissfully ignorant stage in my life. I remember - it was just that rethink everything that hit me like a shitton of bricks. "Oh...fuck me...but I...wait...if...no..." it was pretty beautiful then...the sense of awe...and now bitter jadedness...and that I never stood or stand a chance and probably neither do my kids. :(

The 'jadedness' is a phase of it too, it's the ego lashing out at the world it sees as unfair & unfavorable. It's the ego that needs to distinguish between right & wrong (leading to judgment)...rising above that you might notice there is no difference (only actions and consequences, good comes from evil). Don't get me wrong, I have an ego too and it gets the best of me many times...but I believe true inner-peace is within everyone's grasp.

I'm trying to rise above it, or maybe I'm naturally doing it on my own without effort. I guess, to describe it succinctly, I'd say it's kinda "grey." That's great stuff though - speak more! Have any books on this topic?

A somewhat related question: what's the goal once you've established inner peace? I mean, is it just a waiting game after that? Or what?

Goals are based on time, which is an illusion created by our mind so the ego can exist...there's only now. Start watching your thoughts, and you'll notice just how often you spend outside of 'now' (past, future). Time is always haunting us, your ego will continually punish you for mistakes in the past..but only if you let it.

This book really helped me...might help you too:

http://www.amazon.com/Power-Now-Guide-Spiritual-Enlightenment/dp/1577311523

I am no expert by any means, and you may have a different lesson to learn than me...so what works for me won't always work for you.

Edit: Here's a video I've always liked that relates to this subject (short animation): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2afuTvUzBQ

Sounds like you know who Pierre Grimes is. (If you don't, look this man up on youtubes immediately.)

Great. Duly noted. Thank you! d:D

True inner peace directly conflicts with profit. Therefore, none shall be achieved. Not on this planet, not in this lifetime or any in the foreseeable future.

Not unless it becomes important enough to enough people to make stemming the tide of interpersonal change unstoppable. There are mechanisms in place to prevent this, the most potent of which is propaganda.

The art of enabling self-deception is the most potent roadblock humanity faces regarding it's evolution.

Especially your kids. And that's the worst of all.

Ignorance IS bliss.

Ignorance is ignorance. Truth is bliss.

Not for the millions of deceived american people. They would be happier without knowing it. I don't think they can handle it.

Ends, means. Think like the enemy. The people would be better off.

They can't. That's why there are so many debunkers that just repeat what the MSM tells them. It makes enjoying the porn and football when one SHOULD be in the streets fighting injustice so much easier.

oedipus would tell you otherwise

Oedipus was an idiot. The allegory holds truth, but it's still a tale of a fucking moron.

But his mom was such a milf.

It's only when you have nothing are you then truly free to think anything.

The answer is obvious, but i don't have time to reply because i have to rush to walmart and buy some trinkets and get home and watch Oprah.

Around the world people today use the phrase "As dumb as an American". Well deserved after the american population swallowed the whole 911 boogie man story.

America was a great place in the 1950's.

[deleted]

Pray, do tell ... how have you gone 'all in' against the USD? I can't imagine you placed a bet against USD in USD, the Fed will just buy you out and dilute you. So how have you bet?

Gold and silver are bets against the USD. They would have doubled in the past ten years when the S&P would not have done very well.

[deleted]

Yes, very true about the gain. Just trying to clarify for ayb without looking up the details.

I own both, and I do not hold any US stocks right now, other than some indexes in my 401k.

The problem with gold and silver is that the value doesn't really go up. The value of the dollar is going down, but you are not really gaining any purchasing power by holding gold and silver.

Say you have $10,000 USD in Silver in 2008, and the value of that doubles to $20,000 USD in 2011. Well, the value of the dollar has dropped almost in half, and the cost of buying/selling silver and the risk of storing it, might make it a zero sum.

That is to say, for $5 you could have gone to McD's in 2008. Today it cost $10 to go to Chipotle. A silver eagle in 2008 would have bought you three meals, and today it will still buy you three meals of the same quality. In the 1890's it would have likely got you enough whiskey to get a good buzz. But, it's value hasn't changed. The value of the currency measuring it has changed.

So, the decline of the US is sad. And, holding gold and silver is a good way to avoid the decline; but I'm not sure it's a great way to get ahead.

Cheers!

I recommend this article. You will see that silver has enormous upside potential for a variety of reasons.

With both silver and gold, historically their increase in price has more or less reflected the depreciation in the value of the currency they are priced in, as you say. However, there are two additional effects at work in recent times:

• The prices of gold and silver have been artificially suppressed for ten years or more and have yet to catch up to fair market value.

• The dollar currency bubble is in the process of popping, and it may be the biggest market bubble of all time. When it pops, as when any bubble pops, there will be an overreaction that will take precious metals temporarily far above their fair market value, even relative to the collapsing currency. The last time there was a spike like this was in 1980 when silver hit $50. This time will be much crazier.

There is yet a third unusual condition that applies just to silver, which is both a monetary metal and a heavily used industrial metal with special, inimitable properties.

• Much more silver is used and not recycled than is mined, and the supply of silver available to mine is running out. Silver may be the first element to go extinct, by the year 2025 according to the USGS.

Thanks, I'll read the article.

There is yet a third unusual condition that applies just to silver, which is both a monetary metal and a heavily used industrial metal with special, inimitable properties.

• Much more silver is used and not recycled than is mined, and the supply of silver available to mine is running out. Silver may be the first element to go extinct, by the year 2025 according to the USGS.

THIS. This is what I read that made me start taking silver seriously. If there's one thing that controls the market it's rare minerals.

Please message me. I'm considering buying silver and I have no interest in wading through a bunch of scam bullshit to do it.

This is the best up-to-date and comprehensive article available about silver. I've researched it all myself, and been in communication with the author Chris Duane. The article covers every aspect of buying silver, including the political and philosophical dimensions. There are regular excellent articles on appearing on his site Don't Tread On Me.

The best site and community I've found for trading precious metals and miners is Along the Watchtower.

If you just want to start accumulating physical silver using a dollar-cost-averaging strategy (buy a fixed dollar amount with every paycheck or monthly -- a good solid strategy) just go to Apmex.

Your ideal of the 1950's is so ass-backwards I don't know where to start. America was a segregatd nation deeply entwined with anti-communist, anti-atheist rhetoric. Automobiles were 1000x less safe. Mentally challenged people were viewed as lost causes. And the rich then were just as powerful as they are now, in fact they still had fresh, young Nazi scientist minds working on their projects, putting microwaves into homes and planning bases on the moon to beat the Russians there.

Specify in which ways you feel the 1950's were a better time than now.

If you were a white male. But let's assume we all are.

White male that was not Russian and/or socialist/communist/ect

This might be worth your time.

Dude says a lot of the things that you are - and says that likely, we'll need another attack to "snap" out of it. Great video.

And here he is a few night ago exposing truth about our newest military escapades: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpvMkoPgjWE

America was a great place in the 1950's.

Let's hear it for the white male homeowner! You realize this distortion, the TV Landization of the realities of 1950's America is the genesis of all our current problems in America, I'm sure.

All depends on whether you support the agendas in place that make the events of 911 insignificant in comparison

If you were a white male. But let's assume we all are.

The problem is most of the scientists, engineers, and scholars of the world aren't the type to go to walmart and watch Oprah, but they don't support you either.

Just because you can lump a bunch of guys with art degrees and custodial engineers together, doesn't mean they hold any weight whatsoever.

No major demolition company supports your position. No major scientific organization supports your opinion. No major engineering organization supports your opinion.

So you can whine, cry, and register more domain names. But facts are facts, and science isn't with you.

I once had a great evening discussing 9-11 with my Grandfather who is probably the most conservative member of my quite liberal family, and my cousins husband who was currently on leave from his third assignment in Iraq. I have made it well known to my family and friends that although I can not tell them exactly what did happen that day, I can tell them that what we were told happened is bullshit. The three of us discovered that even though each of us had to publicly display different opinions, or lack there of, we all in our hearts and minds knew we we're being lied too, and that only one group of people could truly be blamed for lying to us... our government. People know, they just don't necessarily feel the need to play those cards just yet, or they are incapable of dealing with the knowledge still. What struck me the most was that of the three of us, my grandfather was clearly the one who was most fearful of the knowledge, the Marine seemed relieved that he could talk openly with someone who knew as much or more about it as he did... but my grandfather, the no bs, take care of business type... you could see the strain in his face as he accepted what his heart and mind had been telling him the whole time. Talk about it, be rational... don't approach people like they are mentally incapable of understanding the grand conspiracy... you will be amazed at what is really behind many peoples cocksure dismissal of any type of conspiracy.

Great advice. And yes, we have an obligation to TALK this out with any and everyone.

Disclosure: I was a rabid Truther from Square One. When I saw the second plane hit, I screamed "Bullshit!" and read every theory I could find. A lot of people on message boards and sites like this one have opened my eyes to what is plausible and what is wide-eyed catshit. So this works both ways. Remember to LISTEN when you talk too. Enlightenment can come from the bottom of even the darkest pit. And the thing the terrorists who pulled this off fear most is agreement amongst the underclass. Because that can only lead to an overthrow.

Hey lafeeverte17,

You are not alone in your observations. But allow me to pull you back from the brink of irreversible irritation..

I started looking into 911truth around 2003. Back then to hold such an opinion that 911 was an inside job, or that the towers came down due to cd was very much a quietly held affair. The information was coming in but it was all quietly brewing on message boards and infowars.com style websites. You couldnt mention the idea to people around you without people completely freaking out, and calling you a terrorist.

Things have changed MASSIVELY since then.

911Truth is now a world wide phenomenon. People are talking about it with a level of ease between themselves now that back in 2003 was at a level I could have only dreamed of.

Reddit, by it's nature is a hive minded populous - not helped by it's affection for karma too. There's a lot of clever people on the site but what 911Truth requires of people on Reddit and the world is really quite a leap of perspective, and as open-minded and as intellectually savvied as many Redditors like to think of themselves, they still reflect an underlying banal stupidity that afflicts the rest of the "modern" world, incapable of making the leap required for taking 911 on board.

The important thing to realise is that you are going through a process of accepting the "question", and to accept that others may be yet to go through it.

Your irritation comes from knowing that what you know can be realised by others on Reddit, but that they don't comes as a disappointment.

Don't take it personally. Some fuckers will never get it. Just like there'll be some things that you'll never get.

I take a lot of strength from Ghandis quote with regards to this: "Even if the truth is known by a minority of one, the truth is still the truth".

What I've found through the process is that the longer you stick with investigating it, the more at peace you become with it. Sometimes the frustration and horror we find when others let us down in our expectations for them to understand something is actually a residue of our own doubts still lingering that we are still uncomfortable with our findings.

It's imperative to keep doing the research, finding peace, seeing the way through, and in doing / demonstrating so - joining with the others who are persistently removing the bricks that will let 911Truth make its way to the surface.

At the end of the day - I think the 911 Truth movement is motivated by a very noble urge for Truth and the peace that can be gained from it. Keeping your eye on the ball with regards to this is your job as an individual without letting the trolls get in the way.

Take a look at the 911Truth movement - it has it's own vociferous infighting between camps - if we in the 911Truth movement were to simply stand strong on our basic premise that there are simply serious questions to be asked, and we will not be moved in asking them, 911Truth would end up on every cereal box around the world.

The fact it hasnt happened yet doesnt mean it's not going to happen, just that there's more work to do.

I'm in no doubt the day is coming. Since getting involved with it back in 2003, all I can see is a pressure cooker of information, bursting increasingly at the seams.

I expect when it comes, it'll be as quick as the Berlin Wall coming down - but until then amuse yourself with the amazing psychological insights you can have with this phenomenon - because once the damn bursts, this seemingly unassailable mountain of ignorance will have evaporated.

Eat it up. It's a smorgasbord of opportunity to not just study 911, but a myriad of topics - hypnotism, propaganda, cognitive dissonance, belief, nationalism...the list goes on.

Sorry for the splurge!

amen! brother, amen!

Not everyone here is as smart, logical or as open-minded as you think..

And the one dissenting opinion gets down voted to oblivion. Good show open minded skeptics!

The simple solution to this is to get more dissenters by showing your dissent. Be the change you want to see and all that.

I think most people wouldn't be opposed to admitting that they just don't know what happened on 9/11. And most people would agree that it's certainly possible (however unlikely) that 9/11 was a live version of Northwoods.

But everyone feels helpless, so why even talk about it. Look at it this way... something like 80% of the US wants marijuana either decriminalized or legalized, but it won't happen and people accept that. And this is something that affects millions of Americans every single day. It's probably the biggest single example of how the wishes of the people don't really matter.

In that context, look at something like 9/11... do you ever think anything will come of it? We're still throwing people in prison over a plant that grows out of the ground.

Shut up you stupid truther, your refusal to accept and be satisfied the documented facts that are the government published reports on the incidents is just a few steps shy of treason. George Bush is smarter than science, didn't you know that?

And you call yourself smart...

/s

People don't like to admit that their country is wrong. I've lived in Japan and I didn't want to admit to what we did in Nanking or Manchuria but I had to. Now it's time for the US to admit their own faults.

the terrorists in planes are the equivalent of a magician's brightly-covered handkerchief. you could have crashed a goddamned star destroyer where those planes hit and most of the buildings would have still been intact. the towers were built in '77, AFTER a plane crashed into the empire state building. they were expressly designed to survive large jet crashes and intense fires. even if they fell, it woul not have been at the speed of gravity, and building 7 would have been peachy.

9/11 proved that you can put anyone on the teevee with the title of "expert" and 2/3 of your electorate will believe whatever they have to say.

Look at your cable news networks today. They do this all the time. 9/11 was proof of concept for a lot of things.

...and metalocalypse did a wonderful job of mocking them with it.

I've met very smart people in real life that just couldn't swallow it, even with the incredibly obvious cover-up surrounding WTC7 in free fall. People are fucking hopeless. The whole system just needs to collapse on their stupid, entitled heads in order for them to wake up.

Nationalism is taught at a very young age, and one of the most important aspects is we are better than they are.

It's very easy for someone trained by American media to believe that 9/11 was an outside job but they'll feel a primal abhorrence when you suggest that Americans were involved, because we are better than they are.

Not too long ago I asked my mom (a staunch Republican, and 9/11 official story proponent) the following question:

If 19 people planned and trained to kill 3,000 others to promote their agenda, why couldn't they have been Americans?

Her only answer was a look of confusion that read: "we are better than they are."

We are not. We are humans, just like them and any one of us is just as likely to be as evil as the worst of us.

The follow up question, and the one that sealed the deal for me, was:

If you believe 19 conspirators could execute the attacks from outside the power structure of America, why is it harder to believe that 19 conspirators couldn't execute the attack from inside the power structure of America?

I could tell that I was shaking her ground, and being as old as she is, it's not worth it so I discontinued the conversation.

Cypher: I don't wanna remember nothing. Nothing, you understand? And I wanna be rich. You know, someone important … like an actor.

Agent Smith: Whatever you want, Mr. Reagan.

Cypher: Alright, then. Put my body back into the power plant, reinsert me back into the Matrix, I'll get you what you want.

Yep. Take away hot showers and unspoiled food for six months and you'll have people BEGGING to be in the SS.

It enrages me that other people don't believe the exact same things as me!

Believe it or not, there are well funded groups within the US that have a very active interest in controlling public opinion. In fact, as reddit has grown, I'm sure their interest in spinning reddit opinions has grown. Your reddit sample is probably not a true sample, but is designed to give to appear as a significant number of true believers. It is by design, they are working on their public opinion models and have devoted a large number of human and monetary resources to attempt to disseminate disinformation, cloud discussions, and spin the issue in the public airwaves outside of the MSN. They can't control the internet, so they are attempting to spin it. It took me a while to catch on to their tactics, but once you are aware, it is clear as daylight. A significant number of redditors are paid to astro-turf certain topics, and this is one with a high priority from day one. Think about the implications if the full truth were to be widely disseminated. It's quite a mindboggling thought experiment.

I agree, many times I wondered how some informed people don't ask questions and believe everything they are told. Same with POTUS supporters, doesn't matter what he does, how bad he fails the'll try to explain to you that he's still the best and you are the one who doesn't understand (I had to replace Obama with POTUS, because is the same on both sides). Probably many Americans see the US politics as a game of football, they decide early in life that they are on one side, and doesn't matter how bad the team is, they'll blindly support it.

I encountered this stance on /r/atheism, a reddit I love dearly.

Sad really.

r/circlejerk

No different than a religious belief. Maybe if you spread the word hard enough, others will join your plight and make you feel better about your belief?

The fact that the whole community doesn't share your belief is proof that it's a community filled with independent thinkers. I say celebrate that. If everyone believed what you believed, you would have nothing to discuss or debate.

EDIT: Took out examples of religious belief to avoid backlash from the thin skinned. Prepared for down votes.

I don't disagree with you. I just think it's pointless to be so frustrated that others don't see everything you see. The great thing about Reddit is that most of us disagree or have different viewpoints. It's what makes these comment strings either inspiring or tragic and keeps us up until the wee hours of the morning engrossed in it.

/shrug It's science.

Yet there hasn't been a single published peer reviewed paper supporting this. You can believe what ever you want to believe but it's a little silly to be so certain of yourself. If it was so obvious then there would be published papers supporting your position. Mainstream journalists and investigative reporters reporting about how it doesn't add up. On the contrary, the published papers support NIST's conclusions. NIST itself is based on the work of colleges and universities all over the world.

I'm not trying to convince you, think what you want, but you do yourself a disservice to be so certain of your position without having field experience or graduate work in the field.

Yet there hasn't been a single published peer reviewed paper supporting this.

Here's one.

And another.

And another.

Here's one.

That's basically a letter, not a paper, and not peer reviewed and in a pay to publish journal.

And another.

That's one I haven't seen. Though the paper looks familiar, the conclusion pretty much sums it up. He thinks there might be thermite at the site. He has some evidence that is widely disputed but ok. great. There is some evidence there might have been energetic materials that might have been thermite.

And another.

Yet again published in a pay per publish journal, not peer reviewed and when the editor found out it was published she resigned.

So, one paper, of which the conclusion is that there might be evidence for energetic materials that might be thermite? That's the science behind the truth movement? Seriously?

A pay to publish journal? Says who? Everything I can find about Bentham Science and The Open Civil Engineering Journal says they are peer reviewed...

EDIT (I just wanted to clarify something else)

That's basically a letter, not a paper

How so?

A pay to publish journal? Says who? Everything I can find about Bentham Science and The Open Civil Engineering Journal says they are peer reviewed...

How can they be peer reviewed if the editor quit when she found out something got published and she didn't know about it? What kind of peer review process is that? It doesn't speak highly of Bentham. I'm not sure but I think the word "Open" is describing the journal. The only evidence to the contrary I've heard is the authors claim that they had it peer reviewed. That should be the journal's job. What evidence have you found that they have a proper peer review process?

That's basically a letter, not a paper How so?

Lets look at the introduction:

Our goal here is to set a foundation for scientific discussion by enumerating those areas where we find agreement with NIST and FEMA. stand the accidental impact of a Boeing 707 seeking to land at a nearby airport…”

That's not a thesis, or a hypothesis, it's more or less a letter for lack of a better term. What are they trying to prove?

This is all minutia though. What is the main point of the papers? There might be evidence of thermite. That hardly proves "via science" that the towers were a controlled demolition.

You didn't explain the "pay to publish" claim, which leads me to believe it was just an assumption, or perhaps speculation. And if there's one thing I've noticed about people who oppose the truth movement, it's that they will not stand for speculation.

This is all minutia though.

Agreed. I'm no scientist, so I don't feel particularly qualified to debate all of the technical aspects of the issues (such as chemicals, theoretical physics and whatnot). However, I have always considered myself to be a logical person with good instincts. And after all of the pictures, videos, interviews and articles I've seen on the subject, I find it extremely hard to believe that a substantial amount of pertinent information hasn't been withheld from and/or altered for public consumption. I mean, you watch the videos, all of them, and you see demolition. You actually see it. Collapse is gradual; demolition is quick.

These photos were one of the heavier nails in the coffin, in my case.

You didn't explain the "pay to publish" claim

A journal is typically termed "pay to publish" if you just have to pay a filing fee to get the paper published. Most respectable journals require that before the paper is published it has to go through a peer review process and an an editorial process. Neither of these two requirements seemed to have been met by bentham's guidlines. The fact that the editor quit when she found out it was published is pretty good proof that it is, in fact, a pay to publish journal.

However, I have always considered myself to be a logical person with good instincts.

Your not alone, everyone thinks exactly like this. Some people are aware that they aren't experts in every field and often what we may think is obvious isn't in fact obvious. But this is all beside the point. People claim science is on their side when in fact it's not. You just pointed that out in your conclusion. You are using your perception and experience to base your conclusions on. That's what most people do, but don't believe that science backs you up.

I love the downvotes here. If anything proves the OP's point, ironically it's this /r/.

I pointed out that science is not on my side?

No, it's the thread topic, remember this early on?

/shrug It's science.

That's what I'm referring to. I don't really mean you specifically, i'm talking more generally when people claim that the science is on their side.

I once was discussing conspiracy theories around 9/11 with someone, and brought up how everyone who was glued to their television that days had the "official" story implanted into their memory. Just a simple memory plant, which has been done and repeated with science! And one guy got so upset with me for "calling him stupid".

face palm How would you deal with that? People are so fucking blind these days and really fucking uptight about it too.

Don't get offended, but I don't think they care. Most people on reddit are too wrapped up in their lives to worry about something that they don't feel effects them, or they feel powerless to change. And it's not your right to say that they have to care about 9-11 conspiracies. I feel that my role in life has nothing to do with politics or conspiracies, and I just ignore it- it doesn't affect me, so the terrorists didn't win.

Is anyone else bothered when a community filled with people as smart/skeptical/logical/open-minded as Reddit is, still has many members who don't dare to question whether September 11 was an inside job?

Maybe we already have questioned it, and came to a different conclusion than you?

In the first week of the attack I thought: "Hey I bet some conspiracy theorist is gonna say the towers were taken down by controlled demolition." Then I thought: "Nah no way, that's too stupid." Then over the following years I was saddened by the onslaught of people clinging to this belief as if it were undeniable fact. Sorry guys but you blew it by promoting bizarre theories instead of focusing on the more tangible aspects of the event.

This is why most people no longer care: they are aware of your beliefs and have rejected them. A long time ago. It's like Jehovah's witnesses coming to your house every month - we get it, you believe, we are sheep, but no we don't want to hear about it yet again.

to question whether September 11 was an inside job?

Maybe we already have questioned it, and came to a different conclusion than you?

Nice username for trolling, reality_engineer.

Shill alert!

I encountered a shill once named cage_troll or something like that. I engaged him in a discussion about his job as a disinfo agent, and asked if the pay was good, or if he was forced to do it without pay. He exclaimed gratitude that someone finally understood his username, and then remarked that he was of course a troll. It was very odd, and after that the tone of our dialogue took a drastically respectful turn, and all of my comments with him lost 1 downvote each. I think that they try to make it obvious sometimes.

So, you saw the event, and part of your brain said "Hey, that looks just like a controlled demolition...", and another part of your brain said, "...yeah, I bet that's what the conspiracy nuts will say...".

i.e. you yourself began with a conflict between the evidence in front of your very eyes and the rationalisation you had already constructed, or the explanation you had been given. You chose the explanation over the only evidence you had. Perhaps others weren't so ready to accept the explanation, and more readily accepted what they saw?

Personally, I had the same reaction: "This looks like a controlled demolition." Subsequently, official reports have failed (in my view) to explain the actual collapse of the towers, other than to say the collapse progressed as seen, following the weakening of steel supports.

Sure, there are whackjob crazy theories... I don't believe those either. But don't tar everyone with the same brush. Ultimately, I saw what looked like a totally unexpected explosive demolition, which at the very time I saw it seemed contradictory to my (admittedly limited) knowledge of physics and engineering, and have yet to see a satisfying explanation. I don't have the answers, but neither have I seen an answer that convinces me.

There is mounting physical and eye-witness testimony that the official explanations are wrong in some important respects... I do not like the direction the evidence seems to point. Some of the officially presented evidence is suspect. (esp. in relation to the pentagon attack, IMO).

i.e. you yourself began with a conflict between the evidence in front of your very eyes and the rationalisation you had already constructed, or the explanation you had been given. You chose the explanation over the only evidence you had.

What I'm trying to say is that it was so obviously a nutty theory (to me) that I didn't expect anyone to take it seriously. I never chose the "explanation I had been given". I looked at it, saw that two planes had crashed into the buildings, and decided that was sufficient to collapse the towers. I didn't believe any extra explanation was necessary.

If you think people who reject the 911 truth movement are running to the cradle of government propaganda, you're simply deluded.

I was just trying to highlight that on some level, you recognised that there was the appearance of a controlled demolition, or you wouldn't have thought what you did. You chose to dismiss that fleeting thought, and in your view you were correct to do so. However, others did not dismiss it and would disagree.

I also saw that planes had hit the towers, but my prior knowledge of high-rise fires, and knowing that the twin towers had been specifically designed to cope with aircraft collisions, gave me no reason at all to suspect the buildings would collapse, and then the manner of their falling contradicted my expectations. Certainly, planes hit the buildings, but I was genuinely surprised at what happened next. This has caused me to be extra-skeptical of subsequent government explanations.

Also, most people are not 'running to the cradle of government propaganda'. I certainly am not. To be honest, most people probably haven't given it much thought at all. Nobody 'runs to the cradle of propaganda'. People may be fooled by it, or not.

There is certainly some level of "cover-up" over 9/11, and much of it may be understandable and not nefarious, but just political, face-saving, and/or minimising panic. However, some of it seems hard to account for. As to delusion, I think I'm just extremely skeptical of the official account. I would counter that anyone who believes every word of the official reports has not applied any critical thinking.

It took me three years before I could see the explosions in the towers and only after hearing Willie Rodriguez speak.
What did get me suspicious, in the first week, was the recovery of the passport of Satam Al Suqami (one of the terrorists) on the street below the towers.That a passport of a terrorist managed to get out of a plane engulfed in flames and land on the streets of New York is beyond reason. I knew we were being lied to...now i know that very little of what we were told that day was true and our country is in deep trouble.

What's bizarre about demolishing old buildings? Happens all the time. What's bizarre about saving a few bucks? That's the American way.

The only thing that is bizarre is the sudden loss of interest, by you and the media. Once everyone realizes it's a BS story, it can't be used as propaganda anymore, so it's dropped.

Yeah there is no way that can't be trolling. If thousands of people died in an attack on my country and there was any evidence that made sense I would take it extremely seriously. There isn't much worse than a government killing it's own people, and if they can do it and get away with it no one is safe.

Maybe we already have questioned it, and came to a different conclusion

...

In the first week of the attack I thought: "Hey I bet some conspiracy theorist is gonna say the towers were taken down by controlled demolition." Then I thought: "Nah no way, that's too stupid."

So, you really never did question it, did you?

So, you really never did question it, did you?

No, never. I haven't seen Loose Change or been exposed to any 911 Truth. I am just a dumb sheep that believes whatever the government and media tells me. I'd rather watch Oprah and go to WalMart because my weak mind can't handle being exposed to the painful truth.

But then I watched V for Vendetta and learnt about Operation Northwoods and became a superhero visiting internet forums where it became apparent that anyone who doesn't join the 911 cult is a blind fool who will perish in hell for their ignorance! ahahaha! I am helping the world now, in my own way, by spamming everyone I can and getting mad at them if they reject my insane blather.

Fortunately there still exists, hidden within the internet, echo chambers of people who all agree with me. Reddit is not one of these echo chambers, alas, so the only possible explanation is that it is full of trolls, government agents, and shopping-mall morons who believe the propaganda. I'll hold a candle in the dark over here in the corner while I seethe with hate for all those who reject the undeniable, undoubtable truth!

True story.

[deleted]

This is a straw man argument. By over-simplifying the position of all conspiracies revolving around corporations and government you deny the position that many conspiracy theorists hold that its actually a small group of super elite financial dynasties who control the policies of these corporations and thus the lobbyists from those corporations who influence the politicians. Its the eye at the top of the pyramid. Who cares if corporations/banks fail if it fits into the overall plan? Those corporations and governments are just patsies. I don't know if any of this is true, but at least I'm that honest. You don't know, but assume you do and use straw man arguments to attack people who don't agree with you.

[deleted]

Thank you for your willingness to discuss this. It sometimes seems that people have an inability to entertain an argument without becoming afraid that they'll adhere to it. You are right that a lot of this is connecting dots, but part of the reason people start believing in the conspiracies is the overwhelming number of dots to connect. This does not validate the conspiracy.

Here is how blowing up the World Trade Center would be more profitable than letting it stand. The 9/11 attacks were a pretext to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. These wars destabilized two countries allowing the United States to install puppet governments in order to control the oil reserves in these countries (maybe even the heroin trade in Afghanistan). Now our involvement in Middle Eastern affairs seems to be less odd because we've been doing it for so long. Now we're talking about going to Libya, which frankly I find disturbing. The fact that Haliburton and its subsidiaries were involved at all in the Iraq rebuilding efforts is a little fishy to say the least. The companies manufacturing weapons benefited from the war, obviously. The war demonized Islam which benefited the position of the Israelis in regard to how they're treating the Palestinians. Larry Silverstein benefited from the insurance money after the towers fell. Al-Qaeda and Osama bin Laden did not benefit from the attack, however. The last thing you want is the US military knocking on your door. Its debatable if Al-Qaeda exists in the capacity that we were led to believe post-9/11. So much of the information we have about them comes from the CIA and they have to protect their own interests (like ousting the democratically elected president of Iran and installing the puppet government of the Shah, just to name one instance). There are lots of people that benefited from 9/11 and few, if any of them were Islamic extremists.

Bankers benefited from the wars because they loaned the money to the US government, which used it to fund the military industrial complex. You cannot justify the huge military budget we have if there are no wars going on. "Defense," doesn't account for our spending rate. The thing is that all these wars require money and so the people loaning the money to the warring countries always benefit. This is how the, "global eltite," profit from this scheme. They fund both sides of a war, so it doesn't matter who wins. Prescott Bush is purported to have profited from the funding of the financial backers of the Nazis.

The reason that they chose a target like the World Trade Center over something like the Statue of Liberty is very simple. Body count. If you want to rally the people in support of a war that they might not support otherwise a whole lot of people need to die to justify it.

I could go on and on, but I'd like to hear what you have to say to what I've written so far.

"The world is either run by smart people putting us on or idiots who are really trying." -Hypatia

So what if you're wrong? Can't you be wrong? Yet you take a stance of certainty? How and why so certain? If so confident why work so hard to tell everyone so? If you're confident in your position and nothing can change it, you don't need to hear it echoed to you, do you? You have all the information you need, no reason to keep it up, you have found your answer and can rest no?

So what if you're wrong? Can't you be wrong?

I definitely could be wrong. I would only say I'm 80-90 percent sure of the events of 9-11. I mean what the fuck, I wasn't there, for starters.

If so confident why work so hard to tell everyone so?

The point of this thread isn't to debate the evidence really, it's to discuss the attitudes of people regarding their 911 beliefs. What I'm working so hard to tell everyone is that not everyone who rejects "911 truth" is a dumb sheep, that there are people who have researched "911 truth" and simply remained skeptical of the claims.

But please don't take that as a false duality - I haven't chosen to side with the government's take on things either. It's not so black-and-white, though I will admit there are plenty of dumbasses in the world who sop up the propaganda without question.

You have all the information you need, no reason to keep it up, you have found your answer and can rest no?

On this issue, pretty much. I have no desire to re-research that which has been debunked. But as always I'm open to new info.

Well, please try this on for size and let me know.

Just like you said about NY (I won't bother trying to convince you) but just like in NY, you were not there, but the witnesses who were there, prove the official story to be bullshit. The choice of belief is between the people who were there that day and prove it all false, or do you believe your Gov't who got everything they wanted with their war on terror. They're in the Middle East in a big way now, things are getting worse now. They're getting what they want. A destabilized mid-east.

Some might have been fooled themselves that day but, you can deny what and where they saw it.

Didn't all the people they interviewed about the flight path say the plane they saw hit the pentagon? You're believing eye witnesses about one thing but not another? That proves the official story to be bullshit? I think you just proved reality_engineer right.

People were fooled that day Sir. They think they saw it impact. All witnesses and their testimony taken by the army center of military history has witnesses all either have them in positions that show they could not have seen the impact directly as their view was obscured. Any other witnesses to the impact......well, are suspect. There was a string of people along Washington Blvd. Those people all worked for USAToday! All of those witnesses headed by Mike Walters all say they saw the ACTUAL impact.

The problem is you don't hear about them because even THEY prove it all bullshit. All those witnesses describe the plane in some sort of bank or turn before leveling out. The Radar data, the actual Flight data recorder which was provided by your Gov't, all show the plane in a straight line coming in from way far out. A perfectly straight line. No deviation. They made a model of this, played it before court etc etc. It can't be both ways. You can have the plane in a turn and the FDR from the actual plane in a straight line. No data is missed, nothing from FDR's. That means the 4 YEARS before they provided that to the public, means they could have done anything they wanted to it. The real event witnessed and corroborated by those witnesses was correct, the plane was in a bank. Can't be denied. The FDR is bullshit, the radar data is bullshit. The crap they provided to support their story is bullshit.

Beyond that the plane was on the NORTH side of the Citgo Gas station. I can't stress that enough. That proves the plane could not have hit the building just by itself. There are 15 witnesses to that, it cannot be undone. On top of that the Gov't already changed their story through Lloyd England who you will see in CIT's other documentaries.

Please watch them, and ask questions, the simple stuff. How does a plane on the North side make a SOUTH side approach damage path??

The one I like best is, they have 86 video's from the event that they say would all show the plane impacting the building right?? The plane couldn't be anywhere else, it must have hit right?? The tapes would all show the exact same thing. Yet they don't want to show those to you at all! They prove their story correct supposedly, but you have to take their word for it because they won't show you! Can you believe that? Take their word for it?

Why wouldn't they want to show you VIDEO proof of the event to put this whole thing to rest? Why wouldn't they? They don't have anything to hide right?

Think about it, ask questions. The alternative is, we're all being "trolled" in a way you can't possibly imagine. Which is precisely why you have to find out and be aware who is fucking with you. We were manipulated into going to war in the Mid-east. Look at what has happened since then, you think that all just happened because of 13 hijackers?? No, they knew what they were doing.

The Radar data, the actual Flight data recorder which was provided by your Gov't, all show the plane in a straight line coming in from way far out. A perfectly straight line. No deviation.

OK, post a picture of the flight path. I want to see this "straight line" from "way far out". I'll assume you can't if you don't. I'm not even going to bother reading the rest of you're comment till you do.

BTW, if you post something and say that 2 miles is "way far out" I'm going to be glad i didn't waste my time on this.

No problem my friend. LINK Rob Balsamo of Pilots for 9/11 truth walks you through the entire flight path.

Please read on, there is only a few critical questions you need to ask yourself and it should all become clear.

Did you even watch it? If you had, you would have noticed, that the plane does a turn. They guy in the video even comments about it. Watch it again. @ 2:50

"But instead of going straight they decide to make this turn"

I'm glad i didn't waste much of my time on this. In the future, you should at least watch the crap before you post it.

Btw, if you want to know why the NTSB video is the way it is, you might look at this thread http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=119751

lol, Mr reality engineer. You said that there were MORE tangible aspects of the event that you're aware of but you yourself still don't believe nor do you care enough to confirm those "tangible aspects" true or false. You didn't look into them you're just so confident in your knowledge or lack of it that you couldn't be wrong about it?

What a crock of shit. Reality engineer.....apt name, but its not working. You see all those downvotes? I know they don't really mean much but they show you're in the minority. You're going to be working hard spewing your bullshit.

I'm only a minority in this thread because 911 truthers visit it and don't like what I have to say. But I don't give a shit whether I'm a minority or not, all that matters is right and wrong, true and false.

I think it's silly that you think I haven't looked into things. This is just a typical assumption you see from 911 truthers: they assume those that disagree with them are ignorant. But really all I've done is come to a different conclusion than you.

You've swallowed up the conspiracies while I've remained a skeptic.

I've been in and around this scene a long time and the only legitimate conspiracy I know is the extent to which the intelligence community knew prior to the attack.

The demolition, missiles, free falling, thermites, etc... are all fantastical claims that have been debunked or discredited. Stop tarnishing a perfectly legitimate inquiry to the failings(intentional or not) of the intelligence community with this rubbish, thanks.

And here's a history of the rest as compiled by a hero from the attacked Office of Naval Intelligence: http://www.scribd.com/doc/4866520/Collateral-Damage-911-Covert-Ops-Funding-Targeted

I've been in and around this scene a long time and the only legitimate conspiracy I know is the extent to which the intelligence community knew prior to the attack.

Agreed, though, don't forget some of the departmental cover-ups of ineptness during the investigation.

White male that was not Russian and/or socialist/communist/ect