http://books.google.com/books?id=KVz-o44Zs7wC&pg=PA137&lpg=PA137&dq=hoax+hottel+ufo&source=bl&ots=a3nwCYiykf&sig=hG7YjrrrOmaCexO_dtc_vDQfmkM&hl=en&ei=eZCgTajlFuHc0QGayJCXBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q&f=false

In late March, 1950, FBI headquarters received from Guy Hottel, the SAC for Washington state, a memorandum which stated that "an investigator for the Air Forces" had told Mr. Hottel that three crashed saucers had been recovered in New Mexico, along with 9 bodies of 3 foot tall aliens. It turned out that this report was based on a hoax, but the FBI didn't know that at the time.

http://www.skepdic.com/aztec.html

The Aztec UFO Hoax was the work of Variety columnist Frank Scully who was hoaxed by two con men, Silas M. Newton and Leo A. Gebauer.

&

The Aztec story was revived in 1986 by William Steinman and Wendelle Stevens in their privately-published book called UFO Crash at Aztec. It was revived again in 1998 when Linda Mouton Howe, a UFO and Art Bell mainstay, claimed she had government documents that proved the Aztec crash. What she had was a rumor eight times removed from the source, Silas Newton, that eventually ended up in a memo written to J. Edgar Hoover. Newton told George Koehler about 3-foot tall aliens and their saucer; Koehler told Morley Davies who told Jack Murphy and I. J. van Horn who told Rudy Fick who told the editor of the Wyandotte Echo in Kansas City where it was read by an Air Force agent in the Office of Special Investigations who passed on the story to Guy Hottel of the FBI who sent a memo to his boss (Thomas).

how is this not the top-rated comment.

fuck my planet

It helps if you sort your comments by 'best'.

[deleted]

because it isn't what you want to hear?

Obviously COINTELPRO!

Countries around the world have been releasing their UFO vaults lately. England, New Zealand, Belgium.... US. Are we being prepped for something?

[deleted]

I, for one, welcome you!

[deleted]

your comment was very appropriate so i am also giving you an upvote :)

The probing has already begun.

Cold War's been over for thirty years, no longer any reason to keep these secret failed test flights secret anymore.

Ya, they were scale models. That's why the pilots were only 3' tall. Or maybe they were monkeys, no wonder they crashed! They wouldn't say bodies if they were just dummies.

It would seem so.

I think so. Look at all the latest children s movies. They almost all have to do with aliens and robots. More so then ever before. I feel that they are trying to condition the young ones.

Desensitize is the wrong word, but yeah they are being prepared.

Thank you.

Condition is the word you are looking for.

Thank you.

That is the most logical conclusion.

Reminds me of that scene from "Paul"

so why isnt this is world news? is it not legitatmite?

wondering the same thing. what is the source for this?

The reason it's not legitimate is because it's just the report of one person from the Airforce written down. You could watch the History Channel and get similar reports.

Yes, except they would be about Jesus or Hitler.

As predicted by Nostradamus.

As presented by Larry the Cable Guy.

while driving a truck over some icy roads.

except we would also like to show ghosts and hoarders, maybe that's Animal Planet

No, it's History Channel. It was the program on Big Foot's Nazi Gold that threw you off.

stop steering the topic from AxeMen

That are being sold to a pawn shop in Las Vegas.

its a memo written by the Special Agent in Charge of the Washington Field Office to the FBI Director on March 22, 1950 that confirms the Roswell UFO incident in 1947.

Someone posted this on a conspiracy site I usually visit. I don't know if it's true or not.

http://vault.fbi.gov/

I haven't looked through anything yet but I heard about them releasing docs the other day.

The files are hard to read. It looks like Indiana Jones copied them.

Mostly because all these documents people are talking about were declassified years ago.

The reason it's not legitimate is because it's just the report of one person from the Airforce written down. You could watch the History Channel and get similar reports.

except we would also like to show ghosts and hoarders, maybe that's Animal Planet

That doesn't make any sense, at all.

No, Sir. You actually don't make any sense at all.

Maybe it is time to check in to the retirement home... once and forever?

"Because investigators on The History Channel discuss UFOs, we would also like to show Ghosts and Hoarders, which may be Animal Planet instead."

Like I said. Senseless.

Funny you mention this, there was a submission linking to the story in /r/worldnews that was rising to the top but it is gone now.

Nothing is legitimate for a thing challenging prejudices.

agreed.

Radar doesn't even interfere with our own airplanes. The idea that a spacecraft, which would have to withstand the immense radiation of interstellar space, could be brought down by our primitive-assed radar is patently absurd.

The Titanic was sunk by a chunk of extremely cold water.

I am not an expert, but isn't radar just a wee bit different from cosmic radiation?

Let me put it this way...would you expect a bulletproof car to explode if a ping-pong ball bounced off of it?

You make excellent points. I love how people are so ready and willing to jump on the "well, how would we know that aliens wouldn't be susceptible to radar?!". For chrissakes... Is it really that hard to believe that E.T's, having learned to harness technologies enabling them to travel vast, intergalactic (perhaps even extragalactic distances), and master the forces responsible, would have any trouble understanding one of the most common forms of electromagnetic radiation (i.e., radio waves)? It defies even the most common logic. Imagine traveling through the depths of space, traveling near pulsars or neutron stars, black holes, etc... clearly, any civilization technologically capable of space travel, would have a highly advanced knowledge of many forms of matter and energy. Amplified radio waves would probably have little or absolutely no effect on such monumentally advanced technology.

I could use the same logic and apply it to airplanes here on our planet. They go past thousands of types of signals, radio waves, etc, so the idea that some laptop or smart phone can interfere with the on-board systems defies logic. But, I'd be wrong about that. It's not an absurd theory, not extremely likely, but not totally impossible either.

edit-typo

I am very, very skeptical about this memo, but I have to disagree with you here.

You are assuming that technological advancement is linear, and that all species must go through the same technological "branch" that humans are advancing through.

I am not saying the "crash" is real or that your argument is wrong. I am just saying that you shouldn't arrogantly presume that because something applies to humans, it applies universally (in regards to technological advancement).

The laws of physics are universal and, therefore, we can expect a certain progression to occur within any technological development. Obviously, crop rotation won't necessarily have to come before computers but I really can't imagine how any civilization could develop a space ship and not understand radio waves.

That would be like developing boats without understanding buoyancy.

Yeah, but you're entire presumption is that we KNOW 100% that technological advancement is linear. You are assuming it is because at this point in time, we have no reason to assume otherwise due to what we know about physics and the universe. You have to admit that you could be wrong, since we have no platform on which to base extraterrestrial advancement in technology.

You can't have a spaceship that would be vulnerable to being crashed by radar because, in outer space, your ship is going to be bombarded by radiation hundreds and even thousands of times stronger than radar. This is not a cultural artifact or opinion, it is a fact of physics.

That's true. I stand corrected.

Let me preface this by saying that I can't believe I'm actually about to participate in this argument...but if you want to argue "advanced technologies" and "facts of physics" then you have to look at at the whole picture. If a civilization is advanced enough to travel interstellar distances, then their understanding of materials has probably advanced. And, as it's been pointed out multiple times, there is EM radiation in space that the ship would have to deal with. So it isn't a giant leap to think that for energy sources, they would have developed a spaceship material that would take advantage of this EM radiation. This would allow them to travel great distances without having to refuel or carry a massive amount of a fuel source on board.

So why would our 1950s RADAR so easily crash their spaceships? Because a "fact of physics" is the "strength" of EM fields decays over distance. So coming into close contact with a RADAR electric field that actually is much much stronger than what they were encountering in space could very very easily upset their energy system and, as such, their on board electronics.

So I would argue that it is very believable that RADAR could crash spaceships.

Is the radiation in space the same as radar? Does it have the same pattern? is it not possible that different kinds of propulsion/navigation would be used in space versus near the surface of a planet? You make too many assumptions.

You seem to be going towards the M Night Shyamalan perspective on aliens. Don't go down that road.

The laws of physics are universal

Technically, we can only claim universality as to the parts of the universe we have been able to visit/send probes, satellites, telescopes, etc. As to all other parts of the universe, we're only observing from within the confines of our world. Just as it's impossible to visit a black hole and say for sure what physical principles govern it, technically we can't quite say that we know that parts of the universe we can currently see but haven't otherwise physically tested are governed by the same principles as the parts we can physically test. They could appear from our vantage point to operate by the same physical principles, but as a technicality we can't prove that their apparent behavior isn't misleading.

But, they're here, not in some far-off part of the universe where 1=2 and suns are cold. Aren't they governed by the "local" laws of physics? Or are you claiming that they bring their laws with them, traveling in little bubbles of otherness?

The question was whether they would have developed their tech the same way we would. If their portion of the universe didn't have the same interaction with radio waves ours does, there's no reason to think they would understand them as well as we would.

You're right. There could be Jetpack Fairies on Pluto. My bad.

If you want to facilitate a meaningful discussion, then don't be a sarcastic dick.

Yes, that's a completely fair, not at all hyperbolic representation of the point I was making.

Agreed. Its as if claiming modern humans wouldn't understand the bow and arrow because we all use guns.

No, I certainly wouldn't. It's a ridiculous analogy. The bulletproof car does not rely on anything related to ping pong balls for navigation.

If a spacecraft were using millimeter-wavelength radiation to navigate then it would for damn sure be able to handle a radar return signal (since that's exactly what it would be using to get around).

like far lower energy and not nearly as dangerous?

It kind of sounds as though these were terrestrial craft.

Would you agree that cell phones and wifi are less dangerous than cosmic radiation? And would you agree that you are required to deactivate devices that emit these less-dangerous electromagnetic signals while flying in an airplane because they have the potential to interfere with the plane's electronics?

Why would they be flying a plane with these electronics right next to our radar towers? Also, why would the pilots eith be 3 feet tall or be transmogrified to that height?

Seriously, what are you trying to say?

I want to understand.

Or they could be wrong about what caused the crash. How did they come to that conclusion anyway?

You seem to be an expert on the subject.

Or you may be just jumping to conclusions that fit your already fixed and staunch view of the subject.

Fact is, this is all bullshit crosstalk until the gov coughs up a saucer for public inspection.

Fact is, this is all bullshit crosstalk until the gov coughs up a saucer for public inspection.

You're assuming the government has a saucer and I'm the one who's jumping to conclusions? All I did was apply some common sense and a basic understanding of physics to this article. If you can't respond to the point I made then why even bother?

I'll respond with whatever the fuck I want. You are not in control of any debate here.

That aside, I was just pointing out that if/when a saucer is shown to the people of the world, then yeah let's all debate it. Until then every point that is debated about the possibilities of ETs and their technology is just stoner supposition.

You act like you are an expert in radio, an expert in alien tech, and therefore can rule out this story as false. But the truth is you are just making guesses based on assumption, as most do on reddit.

I'm not assuming anything, just pointing out that you are. If that pisses you off then, meh.

I made a common sense point about the radiation of outer space -vs- human radar systems. I don't have to be an expert in "alien technology" to take some basic understanding of physics and apply some common sense to it.

In fact, here it is again: The idea that a spacecraft, which would have to withstand the immense radiation of interstellar space, could be brought down by our primitive-assed radar is patently absurd.

If you can't respond to that then why bother responding at all?

OH MY GOD YOU'RE RIGHT. SWEET JESUS OUR GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN LYING TO US. Thank god You made a point that was obvious to any reader of this article.

I even put the point in bold...and you still missed it.

Conversation's over.

You really can't tell that I'm fucking with you can you?

Goddammit so much. LOL.

OMG, that makes so much sense. What are you doing here?

Interesting. But this is 1950, alleged Roswell "crash" was in 1947. There is no mention of Roswell in this memo. This may be separate crash.

And why would advanced interstellar crafts crash? Because of our radar? I don't know about that.

Still very interesting since this is official FBI communication. And why would the SA not evaluate this further? And why are they releasing this now? This raises more questions than answers.

One thing that strikes me as interesting is that prior to 1947 the US had the Army with a branch that had planes. In September of 47 the Air Force was created for air combat. It could be completely coincidental, but still...

Also the CIA was formed Sept 18th 1947.

good guys, them

Once they worked out the problems with communication, with the help of German scientists there was a secret landing at Andrews AFB.

Here the FBI and some high ranking government officials from the US and the UK met with the alien 'ambassador' a being known as Mr Janus of the Septeloids.

The meeting took place in a building that was erected and dismantled purely for the purpose of the meeting for unknown reasons.

Mr Janus told the officials that he had travelled from a far away planet that was running out of resources, and wished to trade technology with them in exchange for these resources, which incendentally are of little value to us (at the moment at least).

As the meeting was coming to a close there was an attack on the base from (at the time) an unknown source - this later turned out to be the 'Greys' who wanted to stop the Septeloids from getting the resources they would need to continue to defend their planet.

One of the British officials saved Mr Janus and flew him back to London where he lived in a flat for a short while (the Septeloids are just bigger humans) and pretended to be a norwegian Olympian weightlifter.

Mr Janus agreed to help the English and Americans with various technologies that even today we can't explain - things like television and the Sony Walkman.

Eventually Mr Janus wanted to return home and help his fellow Septeloids defend against a new threat from the Greys, and so the English Prime Minister agreed and Mr Janus arranged to be picked up by an interstellar craft that could only land in Scotland.

On his way to the rendezvous there was a car accident where the vehicle carrying Mr Janus's brakes failed and the car and all its occupants were incinerated on the M25 motorway.

The Septeloids didn't believe the British explanation of the story, and during the next few years developed a creature known as 'Thatcher' that they used for revenge against the British people and their economy.

In the end the British using their new technology reached out to the Greys explaining the problems they had with the Septeloids and asked them for their help.

In exchange for they agreed and over the last few years disguised Greys using sophisticated shape shifting and polyoptic technologies have taken over most of the western world.

That is the situation we are in today and it all started from this document.

There are many who have come forth in the past stating that radar seemed to affect the navigation systems of the craft, and that radar was actively used against them. Look up the disclosure project on youtube.

So you're saying that a craft, because it is interstellar, cannot crash? How can you say "you don't know about it crashing because of the radar?". You honestly have absolutely no idea about it and you are just casting doubt for no reason.

Who says its interstellar?

Umm... Execut0r did if you would take a minute to read...

But how would he know it is?

Because there are far fewer movies about intertemporal aliens?

I think he was implying that they could potentially be based on secret/black budget anti-gravity-like technology developed by the government(s) or some other group here on Earth.

Right, but from the future.

Or there might be an alien base that we don't know about yet on some other body in the solar system...

You honestly have absolutely no idea about it and you are just casting doubt for no reason.

Doesn't he now that doubt == aliens?

An interstellar spacecraft capable of being downed by 1950 radar towers?

Be careful what you try to learn from their technology as these are alien morons.

May be not interstellar but interdimensional?

hahahahhhahah. answers like this are why i visit this subreddit. Do you think it was from the 4th or 7th dimension?"

It's a colloquial usage of the word "dimension". It refers to a parallel reality which actually has a substantial amount of backing behind it in theoretical physics.

edit: typo

don't add

edit: typo

to your posts. That is completely unnecessary

I usually specify what I've changed when I make an edit so that nobody thinks I changed some essential part of my comment when they see the little asterisk. Is this a bad habit?

I'm all for string theory, m-theory, theoretical physics etc but none of them cover inter-dimensional travel.

Also if one knew anything about theoretical physics, one would also know the difference between dimensions and parallel universes and also, one would know that dimensions cannot be used colloquially to mean parallel realities cos they are 2 entirely different things.

The structure of the multiverse, the nature of each universe within it and the relationship between the various constituent universes, depend on the specific multiverse hypothesis considered. Multiverses have been hypothesized in cosmology, physics, astronomy, religion, philosophy, transpersonal psychology and fiction, particularly in science fiction and fantasy. In these contexts, parallel universes are also called "alternative universes", "quantum universes", "interpenetrating dimensions", "parallel dimensions", "parallel worlds", "alternative realities", and "alternative timelines", among others.

Does this not imply that, in physics, the concept of multiple universes can be colloquially referred to as "parallel dimensions"?

Which theoretical physics book should I read on differences you describing?

Btw something can be parallel to something only in some space(may be a really weired one) which naturally gives a rise for a new dimension(s).

"Which theoretical physics book should I read on differences you describing?"

do a google search on dimensions and another on parallel universes.

"Btw something can be parallel to something only in some space(may be a really weired one) which naturally gives a rise for a new dimension(s). "

anything can be anything if you imagineer it right.

According to actual theoretical physics, dimensions are limited to universes.

parallel comes up in theoretical physics when dealing with m-theory which deals with multiple universes (multiverse)

do a google search on dimensions and another on parallel universes.

gimme a direct link, on a book (authors, title, edition, page), please.

anything can be anything if you imagineer it right.

It's unreasonable. Word parallel have well established meaning in math & theorphysics.

According to actual theoretical physics, dimensions are limited to universes.

Again, could you provide a link on that? It seems that you not me the one who haven't studied theoretical physics.

i can provide you a link but i can also provide you "a direct link, on a book...." that says the sun is star or one that says the earth rotates around the sun or one that says we live on planet earth... c'mon!

anything can be anything if you imagineer it right.

btw, can you image "a set containing all sets that are not members of themselves"?

Well with some good imagineering, one can change the definitions of sets contain and members to make it all fit.

It's what Imagineering is all about. It can be anything you want it to be.

Could you give me an example?

I don't think colloquial means what you think it means.

[deleted]

I had sex with his mother in all the dimensions.

I had sex with your mother in all positions.

I think, actually, that interdimensional travelers are even less likely to be downed by 1950's radar than interstellar ones.

Seriously

How many dimensions are there?

43, given that it's the smallest non-Chen prime. I'd say that much is clear.

Interstellar? How do you know that?

Did they come from Mars?

could be a short range craft that was docked on a larger, interstellar craft

Send the darts

Be careful what you try to learn from their technology as these are alien morons.

THEY COULD, LITERALLY, BE SPACEDICKS.

WHY, oh WHY did you have to link that? WHY?

be grateful it wasn't the blue waffle.

They used the radars to try and communicate with them and instead it destroyed their propulsion systems - ook ook

The only thing it claims is that 'An investigator for the Air Force stated that three so-called flying saucers hed been recovered in New Mexico.'

If said investigator stated that Santa Claus was real, this could also be reported with total accuracy.

The question is did the event actually happen, or is the investigator lying, crazy or mistaken.

That's exactly what I've been saying. There's nothing here. You can watch the History channel and see "investigators" daily.

But these aren't the accounts of some crazy guy living in his basement. it was that man's job to provide accurate reports. He has no reason to lie. Plus if you don't believe in the possibility of extra-terrestrial life you are plainly ignorant.

I never said I don't believe in the possibility of extraterrestrial life.

But these aren't the accounts of some crazy guy living in his basement.

Source?

Either way, the title of this submission is what we have issue with. Nothing is confirmed, there is no statement from a government agency saying this happened. This is just the accounts of 1 person in this document, that's it. It's not even said person's statement, just a summary.

So, the FBI just thought "fuck it, here ya go" and made these 'vault' files accessible?

Hmmm.

FOIA

For a second I drew a blank on FOIA and assumed it meant 'fuck off, idiot asshole.'

But I got it, no worries.

Ha, I don't think I'd abbreviate that.

Hey man, FOIA!

Why would they release incriminating documents? It makes no sense.

It makes sense to keep the serious stuff classified and make the stuff that doesn't matter unclassified, which is what they do.

Maybe they aren't necessarily as interested in hiding the truth as everybody seems to think they are.

Or they know not enough people will care or even ever learn about the documents in a relevant time frame, but want to put them into the public domain so they have a larger chance of being preserved for history. Why idk.

what makes them incriminating. Seems more to like they are saying "Yeea everyone already knows so heres the case file."

this is not the Roswell incident. However, the vault does have a document on the Roswell incident. It is largely insignificant and describes the craft as a component of a weather balloon.

http://vault.fbi.gov/Roswell UFO/Roswell UFO Part 1 of 1/view

Very interesting. Why is this being downvoted?

Bad guys use reddit too.

Skeptics like to come to this subreddit to make themselves feel superior because they know for a fact the way the universe works.

I am a skeptic, I did not downvote and I am pretty sure I do not know how the universe truly works...I do not think that being skeptical is a bad thing (the very basis of Science)...some people who claim to be skeptical are really just douches.

Their are douchebag skeptics who give the rational ones a bad name. Sorry about the sweeping generalization.

Skepticism is not a bad thing, but being willing to think outside the realm of what we know and what makes sense to us has given a lot to science as well. "Conspiracy theory" doesn't automatically imply crazy.

Edit: Could it be said that conspiracy theorists are skeptics of accepted ideas? I'm sure the skeptics who paved the way for scientific discovery in their day were considered crazy conspiracy theorists. Do you really think people believed when they heard "We're being lied to! The world is actually round! Don't listen to the powers that say otherwise!" Or were they thinking "That fucker is crazy."

There are skeptics and then there are Skeptics. The former are rational; the latter are no different then any religious dogma I've seen.

The problem with being skeptic is that you have to believe(=not to be true skeptic) in something or fall into abyss of solipsism.

So science is not so skeptical and it's assumed that a world around us is a real one and our senses are telling us the truth. A very bold assumptions I say.

Anyway, I like you attitude.

I don't think I understand.

My point is everybody who is not solipsist believes into something.

Main difference between "skeptics" and "believers" that they believe in slightly different things.

And the Science believes too. Skepticism is not a basis of science. Reproductivity of results is. Skepticism is a good and useful tool and nothing more.

p.s. skepticism was a basis for ancient Greek science. They wanted total clarity in everything. So they had to dismiss irrational numbers and many other useful things. They could do better with "it's fine if it works" attitude which emerged later in Europe.

Because it's not proof of anything. I can go call the FBI right now and tell them I'm an Airforce 'investigator', and a big space ship landed in my back yard. The same exact type of memo / report would be generated. The FBI gets total nuts who report their paranoid delusions, and everything is recorded and reported even if it's a fantasy.

Besides that, I'm disappointed, I was really hoping for some proof, because just statistically speaking, there probably are aliens out there.

I think you would probably be required to show some credentials.

The Air Force hires companies who investigate things for them. This guy may, or may not have been a soldier in the Air Force. Even if he was a soldier, it's only his word. Like any organization with thousands or millions of people, there can always be a few liars and nuts who make it through the screening process. At Ft. Hood, the guy who shot everyone made it through, and he was a psychiatrist. We had an astronaut make it through all sorts of screenings, only to end up in adult diapers on a long road trip to kill her boyfriends wife.

One telling sign is that the last sentence says, "No further evaluation was attempted by SA (redacted) concerning the above". If the FBI Special Agent who got this didn't think it was worth looking into, he probably didn't believe the person. It would be pretty odd to have an FBI agent just shrug their shoulders and go about their day if they thought that they had a credible source about an alien landing. They wouldn't want to be the bozo who passed on the most important investigation in FBI and human history.

This just states what one person saw. It is not an official report; just the written account from one person of the Airforce.

I could watch the History Channel and get the same information.

Could this be really what happened in Roswell?

http://roswellufocrash.com/

I like how people always think its so silly that radar FROM ANOTHER PLANET was able to interfere with alien spacecraft.

Not that silly really - what if for example we visited another world where they flooded certain areas with powerful radio signals in the 2.4GHz range? Someone might be making space-lunch and the onboard microwave might explode causing the pilot to get distracted and crash.

Fuck, we better ban microwaves in our UFOs, good thinking blergle! But what about my Hot Pockets?

Eat them cold for science!

You're right, it's not silly at all. Our own commercial planes can have issues with signals from smart phones, laptops, and other devices. That's why they tell you to turn them off during takeoff and landings, and it's for real reasons. So, the idea that a bunch of big ass radar dishes could screw with systems that had not been exposed to that type of signal.

Conspiracy theorists crack me up. They're all like "How can you know that RADAR wouldn't effect an anlien spacecraft? It's too complicated to understand and you don't have enough information. Although, I definitely know aliens have visited Earth - it's the most probable explanation to blurry photos I see on the Internet."

And FYI, RADAR is nothing more than electromagnetic radiation in the form of radio waves. Radio waves are a natural phenomena the exist throughout the know universe. Any interstellar species would have come into contact with radio waves long before they were building space ships.

As opposed to skeptics who dismiss anything that science has not explicitly been able to venture into, because we know everything about everything and if there is something that doesn't fit into our knowledge base, it must be fucking crazy.

Get over yourself. Conspiracy theorists can have some crazy theories, sure, but to completely dismiss any and all ideas that haven't been explicitly proven because you think they're crazy makes you a close minded douche.

Radio waves are a natural phenomena the exist throughout the know universe

Because we know about so much of the universe... ಠ_ಠ

To be fair, I agree with you. Radio waves probably wouldn't do shit, but that doesn't mean that you know beyond a shadow of a doubt the way it is everywhere in the universe. And if you really think that science has all of the knowledge we need to know about these things, you are delusional.

You could have posted the second part of your response and you would have added to the conversation. Instead, you ventured into the conspiracy subreddit to call out conspiracy theorists on their conspiracies... Bravo?

You do know that radio waves (EM radiation) are one of the MOST common forms of energy in the known universe right...? Ever heard of pulsar? Neutron star, black hole? Pretty much all stars are giant radio wave emitters. How about large Gas giants with active atmospheres (we know for a fact that the universe is ripe with this type of planet). So yeah, we pretty much know without a shadow of a doubt, that EM radiation is, in fact, common throughout the known universe. Advanced, space faring civilizations would most definitely have to know this as it is a basic tenant of observable knowledge as it relates to the universe and commonly observed forms of electro-magnetic radiation (i.e., "energy")

While I am not necessarily agreeing that effects of radar is what is responsible for bringing these UFOs down, it is worth noting that depending on what methods the UFO uses to derive altitude and airspeed information, it could certainly be theoretically possible to bring it out of the sky with EM waves.

As an example, if you had an aircraft (or R/C drone) that used a form of radar altimeter to determine its altitude above the surface, and if that aircraft's flight controls or autopilot was directly tied to that radar altimeter data and was using that information to control its altitude in real-time, then it could certainly be possible to deliberately or accidentally jam that system, resulting in a crash.

Whether the radar altimeter worked by just timing how long it takes the emitted wave to reflect back to the source, or if it was a frequency modulated continuous-wave system that measured the shift in frequency after reflection in order to calculate altitude - either way, both of those systems are potentially corruptible from jamming, and if the aircraft/UFO relied on that kind of system as the sole means of establishing altitude data, then it is certainly not beyond the realm of possibility that you could (again, either accidentally or deliberately) exploit that weakness, overwhelm the system with corrupted reflectance data, and potentially cause the craft to fall out of the sky.

I am not saying that is what occurred in this case. I am just pointing out a scenario where, if certain conditions are met, it could be theoretically possible for EM radiation in the form of radio waves to be responsible for bringing a craft down. Any aircraft system that determines its altitude by emitting a signal and then monitoring the reflectance data coming back is a system that is potentially corruptible, because it leaves the craft susceptible to accidental or deliberate jamming or malicious "false data" influence.

While this is all true, I know a thing or two about spacecraft design, and I am quite certain an advanced spacecraft would not have a single-point failure at an altitude sensor, of all places.

Well, the Apollo lunar modules utilized a landing radar with radar altimeter to provide the vital velocity, slant range, and altitude data to the astronauts after pitchover during final approach and landing on the Moon, and if that system had of failed suddenly at low altitude (or got jammed/corrupted somehow), then the only thing the astronauts would have had to fall back on was their mark-1 mod-0 human eyeballs and the converging LM shadow out the window to the west to try to estimate how high above the surface they were, right?

During Apollo LM pre-flight simulations, the controllers would routinely corrupt the LM radar altimeter on purpose and cause it to feed garbage or incorrect altitude information to the CDR and LMP to see if they would notice and to see how they would react once they picked up on the errors. They planned and trained for this contingency because a failure of the radar altimeter could be catastrophic at low altitude if the astronauts were not able to appreciate they were getting false data.

If you are dealing with an unmanned probe or a craft that was designed to fly autonomously without direct operator intervention, then any sudden failure or corruption of a vital altitude-deriving system while the craft was at low altitude within the "dead man's curve" could result in a crash. It would all depend on what backup or contingency capabilities (if any) had been built into the automated flight control system, and how they worked. Depending on altitude, airspeed, and awareness of the operator, there may simply have not been enough time to recognize the corruption of the altimeter and counter for it before impact.

I wonder how radio waves react with objects in the fourth dimension.

Have you ever operated a radio? A radio is an object that exists in four dimensions and reacts to radio waves. In fact, so are you.

haha, I posted a response to a post above you saying pretty much the exact same thing. It never ceases to amaze me how short-sighted people tend to be when considering advanced civilizations and the technologies that would be required in order to achieve that status.

And FYI, RADAR is nothing more than electromagnetic radiation in the form of radio waves.

Just as an intellectual excercise, isn't it feasible that a creature could evolve to see radar? And as such, might not our radar towers look like bright beacons, potentially distracting or blinding pilots? Just thinking out loud here, its not like bright headlights can harm a car, but they can still cause crashes.

For arguments sake, let's assume that a species is capable of "seeing" radio waves. In this case, we'll also have to assume that they physically maneuver their space craft and rely on their immediate senses for navigation (as crashing for the reason stated would mean that they physically lost control of the craft as there was no computer to navigate for them, and they had no alternative sensors to navigate if their visual sense was impaired). These last two assumptions are quite a stretch for a species that would necessarily have to be technologically advanced enough for at least interstellar travel.

Even assuming all that, it's not as if they would all of a sudden be caught off guard by these radio waves, they would be "visible" to them from above the earth. It wouldn't be like a car with really bright head lights coming over a hill. Also, radio waves aren't just emitted from human-made technologies. They're a natural product of stars, quasars, and other stellar objects that this speculative species would have had to pass on their way here (in their personally maneuvered, visually navigated space craft...)

A fine argument, and all good points. Some more food for thought:

perhaps they are wired into the ship, so the driving is done in unison, their thoughts controlling the highest level of a whole range of automated sub processes, so that the system is neither entirely automatic, nor entirely pilot controlled.

Perhaps the radiowaves were in an unexpected distribution, as man made patterns tend to be far more uniform than natural ones.

I believe some of the many military officers who have come out with reports about ufos have stated that radiowaves are actively used against the ufos, in which case they may be targeted intensely, directly and in patterns which could be dangerous to either some life forms or some sensitive systems.

While radio waves indeed exist in the universe, many of the situations in which they naturally occur would also be deadly to humans for other reasons (black hole, neutron star, gas giant atmospheres), so it is entirely possible that a creature could reach earth shielded from electromagnetic spectra, and then be unexpectedly confronted with it upon arrival.

For instance, let us take the light spectrum we humans are so dependent upon, we require it in moderate quantities to see, however in sufficiently high quantities it can blind us permanently and hurt like the dickens. if we arrived on a foreign planet, and had retracted the radiation shields which gaurded us in space, so that we could explore the planet's surface, we could be drawn towards a regular source of light, like a lighthouse, rotating in the distance. if we came in from above, we might be unprepared for the brightness of the lighthouse once we crossed its plain of maximum intensity. stunning us temporarily, perhaps even blinding us and sending our craft out of control. If the computer system were attached to our brains, such a pain overload might short circuit sub systems.

Granted, our mindset would be to gaurd against any such massive failures with an automated safety system, but that doesn't mean they would, perhaps there is a cultural taboo against having yourself controlled by a computer, or perhaps they are organic computers themselves and never had a need for computers in the same way we do.

There are simply too many unknowns to discount the possibility of radar effecting aliens entirely.

24 down votes? ... wtf

Typical reverse double-bluff. Don't believe the truth in the lies, people.

If aliens did "crash" here I highly doubt they would be shaped like humans. They most likely evolved on a different planet with different circumstances thus leading to a completely different evolutionary track. This will include different ways to perceive senses. They most likely won't have eyes, ears, a mouth or nose. I call bullocks.

We moved that radar.

Aliens use navaids too, you know.

Okay, skeptics who have /r/conspiracy subscribed as a sport: What's the debunking approach for this?

This is by far my favorite conspiracy theory, basically the reason I have this subreddit subscribed. I don't "believe" anything. I just find it fascinating. And I would have never expected an official FBI memo turning up that is that specific. Wow!

But I don't want to miss some bullshit catch in this...

The catch is this:

An investigator for the Air Force stated...

No further evaluation was attempted...

Vaguely interesting, but not really a smoking gun of any sort.

My debunking approach is quite simple:

File was declassified last week. What else was last week?

Yes, the FBI is in the habit of forging FOIA request documents for fun. There's no chance that could be considered irresponsible at all. Nope, none at all.

upvoted hoping this was a joke

Can we please get a confirmation of its authenticity? I can't determine legitimacy myself, i was hoping one of you fine individuals can determine?

It's on an FBI.GOV server, that's pretty authentic. However, the document itself it meaningless. Anyone can call the FBI and they'll generate a report about anything you say. If you tell them your cat is an alien with lasers coming out of its eyes, somewhere there will be a report about it.

So, if a grain of truth is here , then the giant question arises as to what has since happened to the alleged craft?

Economic collapse is coming....

I wonder why they have no files available on the JFK assassination....

FTFY, I really hope this is legit.

They were weather balloons, no, special weather balloons, uh no, they were crash dummies.

Holy shit. Can we forward this stuff to some media contacts?

Have you guys noticed that the people in charge just seem to ignore this stuff? More direct proof than this could get posted somewhere and I still feel like it wouldn't be on CNN/Fox/MSNBC...

The human race needs to start thinking about space. This shit needs to get out there and people need to start accepting that we're not alone in the universe...

...Last week, huh? Any chance you'd know a specific date this may have been released?

are you an idiot? This is the fucking FBI. You think the FBI is going to prep us with press releases and then declassify false documents as a joke? That's like the news claiming the president was assassinated as a joke.

Implying I said it's a false document.

But really, if there WAS how shit went down, do you really think they'd actually declassify it? I don't. But I do think they might choose to declassify a real report that was just wrong on April first.

I would need to hear more of your reasoning to comment on it. Personally, I expect everything intentionally released to the public to serve some purpose in forming beliefs in the minds of that public, so I figure the legitimacy of the information released depends, on a case-by-case basis, on whether that purpose is better served by true or false information being released.

I was going to reply w the "Can't tell if trolling or just really stupid" meme, but I think I figured it out

Out of curiosity, which conclusion did you come to?

FAAAAAAAAKE!

Fuck, we better ban microwaves in our UFOs, good thinking blergle! But what about my Hot Pockets?

I think he was implying that they could potentially be based on secret/black budget anti-gravity-like technology developed by the government(s) or some other group here on Earth.

I am very, very skeptical about this memo, but I have to disagree with you here.

You are assuming that technological advancement is linear, and that all species must go through the same technological "branch" that humans are advancing through.

I am not saying the "crash" is real or that your argument is wrong. I am just saying that you shouldn't arrogantly presume that because something applies to humans, it applies universally (in regards to technological advancement).

Yeah, but you're entire presumption is that we KNOW 100% that technological advancement is linear. You are assuming it is because at this point in time, we have no reason to assume otherwise due to what we know about physics and the universe. You have to admit that you could be wrong, since we have no platform on which to base extraterrestrial advancement in technology.

Agreed. Its as if claiming modern humans wouldn't understand the bow and arrow because we all use guns.

I could use the same logic and apply it to airplanes here on our planet. They go past thousands of types of signals, radio waves, etc, so the idea that some laptop or smart phone can interfere with the on-board systems defies logic. But, I'd be wrong about that. It's not an absurd theory, not extremely likely, but not totally impossible either.

edit-typo

The laws of physics are universal

Technically, we can only claim universality as to the parts of the universe we have been able to visit/send probes, satellites, telescopes, etc. As to all other parts of the universe, we're only observing from within the confines of our world. Just as it's impossible to visit a black hole and say for sure what physical principles govern it, technically we can't quite say that we know that parts of the universe we can currently see but haven't otherwise physically tested are governed by the same principles as the parts we can physically test. They could appear from our vantage point to operate by the same physical principles, but as a technicality we can't prove that their apparent behavior isn't misleading.

43, given that it's the smallest non-Chen prime. I'd say that much is clear.

I usually specify what I've changed when I make an edit so that nobody thinks I changed some essential part of my comment when they see the little asterisk. Is this a bad habit?

be grateful it wasn't the blue waffle.

Fact is, this is all bullshit crosstalk until the gov coughs up a saucer for public inspection.

You're assuming the government has a saucer and I'm the one who's jumping to conclusions? All I did was apply some common sense and a basic understanding of physics to this article. If you can't respond to the point I made then why even bother?

I'll respond with whatever the fuck I want. You are not in control of any debate here.

That aside, I was just pointing out that if/when a saucer is shown to the people of the world, then yeah let's all debate it. Until then every point that is debated about the possibilities of ETs and their technology is just stoner supposition.

You act like you are an expert in radio, an expert in alien tech, and therefore can rule out this story as false. But the truth is you are just making guesses based on assumption, as most do on reddit.

I'm not assuming anything, just pointing out that you are. If that pisses you off then, meh.