This is what we need in /r/conspiracy

[deleted]

People who are thorough enough to research and cite references for their insane rambling bullshit.

EDIT: "Insane rambling bullshit" are the words used by the previous [deleted] comment. I chose them to make a direct impact on him/her personally, which appears to have worked.

If you researched and provided sources, it's not really insane rambling bullshit, is it? That's the whole difference between credible and non-credible. He's not trying to provide a conspiracy theory, he's just trying to say "Hey, there might exist a conspiracy."

"Hey, there might exist a conspiracy."

Who gives a shit if it's a conspiracy or not?

We just want to understand what's actually happening in the world.

Who gives a shit if it's a conspiracy or not?

Uh, /r/conspiracy.

Because if it is a conspiracy, we might not know whats actually going on. Hence the word conspiracy. Do you even know what it means?

Do you even know what it means?

It means a bunch of people banding together to commit a criminal act.

That's a little too specific for this case.

That's acepincter's point. That OP actually cited sources and references, instead of just rambling on without any.

Yeah I know, but he's still calling it insane rambling bullshit lol.

Read his edit.

http://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/h2tpd/some_stuff_that_is_bothering_me_about_the_whole/c1s666h

I did, thank you :)

oh well yeah i guess technically haha

I used the same three colored words of the person I was replying to (deleted since) in order to make the point stronger and directed at him/her. With you, I agree. By deleting his post, he's taken away the leg I had to stand on.

Ah, when I read your post, OP had already deleted his comment. Had I known this, I would have responded a little bit differently. Quite sad that some people can't even defend what they say anymore. Why even say it if you're going to delete it? (Of course this is directed at the OP and not acepincter)

I appreciate you coming back to say this.

I extend the same gratitude toward you. Good day!

The fact that he was buried at sea so seemingly early set off my first bullshit alarm. It just seems fishy (no pun intended).

and the way, "we followed muslim customs" is attached to every story about it like a talking point. Total BS.

There's no way they wanted to capture him alive and give him access to lawyers and his day in court, or even return his dead body to his family.

It's a done deal now. ** Poof ** he's gone.

Drudge has a story up now saying that it was a "kill mission" -- there was never any intention of even trying to capture Bin Laden (if the corpse actually was Bin Laden). They wanted to shut him up.

(if there actually was a corpse).

FTFY

Agreed 100%. If this whole Call of Duty/Steven Segal story is actually true (which i still highly doubt) they did it to silence an asset and prevent him from spilling the beans

Which would make a great deal of sense since bin Laden was (AFAIK) a creature of our own making.

Exactly...people seem to forget about that. Or the fact that big bad al qaeda were going to hand him over to us in 2001 but we turned them down. I guess that would have tarnished the image of the spectre we created

Nobody cares about Drudge.

specially since Obama said he wasnt a Muslim because he killed Muslims around the world.

Saddam didn't get that courtesy.

[deleted]

in what way? He was a world leader. Yes, he ruled his people with an iron fist, perhaps partly because of cowardice, but he was not an international terrorist calling people to blow themselves up in marketplaces instead of fighting on the battlefield.

In fact Saddam did fight against Iran and then sort of against America. Not saying those are good things he did, but they are not "cowardly"

Don't get me wrong - I'm not in love with Saddam, but I don't get calling him a coward. Think about what we did. We invaded a country, stormed its capital, and executed its leader. It's the opposite of a manhunt for a terrorist hiding in some remote compound.

He ran an army, and he surrendered like a bitch.

I just find it odd that there just, coincidently, happened to be leaked [cellphone] footage of him being hanged.

I have to get this off my chest. I just want to point out a few discrepancies that are just really really bothering me: 1) Map of distance from Islamabad (35 miles south of the compound where he was found) to the North Arabian sea where he was supposedly buried at sea using http://www.distancefromto.net/ , which unfortunately will not let me post a map to my knowledge, but tells me that from Islamabad to the Northern Arabian sea is roughly 900 miles.

Okay.

2) I want to establish that the media is reporting two different helicopter types were used: the Chinook and the Sikorsky MH-60 Blackhawk helicopters (personally I believe the latter as they're more for extraction and less for transporting large crews like the Chinook) http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/05/the-secret-team-that-killed-osama-bin-laden/238163/ first sentence : "From Ghazi Air Base in Pakistan, the modified MH-60 helicopters made their way to the garrison suburb of Abbottabad, about 30 miles from the center of Islamabad. Aboard were Navy SEALs," http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_CH-47_Chinook#Iraq_and_Afghanistan "On 1 May 2011, Chinook helicopters were used for carrying around two dozen US Navy SEALS into the compound where Osama bin Laden was staying. The overnight raid ended in the killing of Osama bin Laden" and now we establish the sources of chinook reporting: http://www.google.com/search?q=SEALS+chinook&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&client=firefox-a#sclient=psy&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=Z3P&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&source=hp&q=SEALS+chinook+osama&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=c9365e657b732f11&biw=1367&bih=685 you can see that for yourself.

Right. There was four helicopters. Two with a mix of DevGru and SOG/SAD and another two on standby that were PJ's should it be a trap or something goes horrifically wrong.

3) now we establish the cost and specs of each: mh-60 Blackhawk Cost :14 million as you can see from the little box on the right there http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_UH-60_Black_Hawk Speed: 222 mph top speed in good conditions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_UH-60_Black_Hawk#Specifications_.28UH-60L.29 Chinook cost: average of $35 million http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_CH-47_Chinook top speed: 196 mph top speed in good conditions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_CH7_Chinook#Specifications_.28CH-47D.29 So what we have here is a 900 (roughly) mile trip from Islamabad to the ocean to drop the body is completed in roughly 4 hours 6 minutes by the Blackhawk or 4.6 hours by the Chinook. Either way, you mean to tell me that the body was positively ID'd in the 4 hours it was in flight?

No it wasn't. It was positively ID'd on the aircraft carrier they landed on. The fire fight lasted 41 minutes, the flight back lasted just over four hours. We can assume five and a half hours if you really want to. That means that they had 18 to 19 hours left to do something, anything with the body. The brain of Osama's sister is in the hands of the FBI, and was to be used for DNA testing should they find him. Guess what? They did just that. The testing was done on the ship, and they already had a DNA reference to compare it to. This takes no more than 12 hours to do these days, even under less than ample conditions. The fact that they had a probable ID and the DNA reference to go, only made this happen faster.

4) The reason I brought up the cost of the helicopter is to point out that the SEALS either detonated and destroyed a $35 million dollar piece of equipment or a $14 million dollar piece of equipment. Why? Going back to the whitehouse.gov press release found here: http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2011/05/02/press-briefing-senior-administration-officials-killing-osama-bin-laden SENIOR ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: "During the raid, we lost one helicopter due to mechanical failure. The aircraft was destroyed by the crew and the assault force and crew members boarded the remaining aircraft to exit the compound. All non-combatants were moved safely away from the compound before the detonation." "Q Yes, hey, how are you doing? My question would be, what was the type of the helicopter that failed? And what was the nature of that mechanical failure? SENIOR ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: Can’t go into details at this time. SENIOR ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: We didn’t say it was mechanical. This wouldn't bother me so much if it wasn't such a small thing that turns into something weird. Why go to the trouble to blow up a $35 million dollar (assuming it was a Chinook) piece of equipment with remote detonated explosives. Another thing that needs to be pointed out is crew sizes and capacity. The media has established that 20-25 SEALS were sent into the operation. The average flight crew for a Chinook is 4 people. The average flight crew for a UH-60 Blackhawk: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_UH-60_Black_Hawk#Variants' "UH-60A Black Hawk: Original U.S. Army version, carrying a crew of four and up to 11 equipped troops" So in both helicopter scenarios 4 crew members are needed. Two helicopters are flown meaning there's 8 crew members. The media has stated anywhere from 20-25 SEALS were on board. The Chinook has a capacity of up to 26,000 lbs so god only knows how many people could be on board one. I would imagine that based on the presumed 28-33 people (20 SEALS + 8 crewmen or 25 SEALS + 8 crewmen) that either way it is highly unlikely that 28 (or 33) men are all going to fit on one helicopter. Now I'm not arguing that it's impossible, I'm just saying it's unlikely. I can see the reasoning behind bringing 2 helicopters, but to destroy one and have 33 (or 28) fly back together seems strange.

Because destroying U.S. military equipment in the event of an accident is quite literally priority one after retrieval. You do not let equipment fall into anyone else's hands, no matter how innocuous it might be. Let's not forget that we technically did declare war on Pakistan with this mission since it violated their sovereign rights. By calling this a joint operation however, Obama has successfully routed this issue. Also, no it isn't strange. This is done regularly during emergency and you can find dozens of videos and recorded instances of people literally flying on the outside of these helicopters should the situation require it. These were flown by the best pilots we have with the most hardcore operators in the military. Death does not scare them, bringing back this target's body at any cost would have been well worth it for them. As for the crash landing of the helicopter? That is the only really vague question remaining. They could have done a hard landing and fucked up the chassis (this can happen), they could have had a legitimate mechanical failure (this has happened during clandestine operations before, Operation Eagle Claw), or the pilot could have lost control due to the extremely poor landing area, hit the compound and crashed. I am going with the last one since there were complaints of how difficult the area was to drop the DevGru and SOG/SAD operators off at.

5)The next thing that's bothering me is how close to the PMA Kakul (Pakistani Military Academy of Kakul) the compound is: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=34.182308,+73.245075&aq=&sll=34.181977,73.245839&sspn=0.006861,0.009645&ie=UTF8&ll=34.183166,73.244895&spn=0.006861,0.009645&t=h&z=17&iwloc=A Seen here where the arrow is over the compound and the PMA Kakul is listed at the corner of Arawami and Kakul roads. We're led to believe that no law enforcement, no soldiers no anyone got involved in this. Imagine this scene for me: You see two helicopters fly overhead and drop at a compound just northwest of your position, fully armed guys get out (20-25 of them) and proceed to get into a firefight, not for 3 minutes like most STING operations, but 40 minutes....a completely lifetime in a battlezone....40 minutes of gun fire that leaves three men, osama, a girl who was being used as a human shield (???) and several others dead. Then the men turn around, blow up one of thier own helicopters over mechanical failure and leave? It's just strange is all I'm saying.

Right. This is the Syria situation in 2007 all over again. We've done this before. Pakistan goes, "I don't know what the fuck they did, they're Western Wizards or something!" defers blame to our superior technology and preserves relations with current foreign threats. Or fuck. Maybe they are just completely incompetent. I'd say it is about a 50/50 chance. Hopefully I've set your mind at ease, but this was just a perfect operation done perfectly by some of the most well trained and informed military groups on the planet. Nothing in the history of modern military operations has ever gone so perfect as this scenario.

Nothing in the history of modern military operations has ever gone so perfect as this scenario.

If anything, this would give me cause to doubt.

Well, they did lose a chopper. And 40 minutes??

Fair 'nuff.

The testing was done on the ship, and they already had a DNA reference to compare it to. This takes no more than 12 hours to do these days, even under less than ample conditions. The fact that they had a probable ID and the DNA reference to go, only made this happen faster.

An expert in another thread said she does them in 2 hours flat.

the question is how accurate are the results, in how often does a false positive occur ?

And exactly who is this mysterious expert ?

no idea. apparently the poster did this for a living, and was confident in the response.

You don't even want to know how many people I've fooled into believing I have 10 different professions before on the Internet and lived n 50 different locations, im not lying.

... or are you lying now? lol

Sources?

Of what exactly? Because it'd take me a little while to break some of this down.

It still doesn't make sense that there aren't any photographs.

Uh. There was live video of it. There was video and photographs taken at the scene, of the autopsy and of the body being tossed out into the ocean. Muslim burial rites respected, of course. It just hasn't been released yet. I have a feeling you are comparing the Sadam situation to this. That is stupid, you aren't stupid for thinking this way, but the comparison itself is stupid. Allow me to explain why:

DevGru and the SAD/SOG aren't acknowledged by the U.S. Government. They have total deniability. Notice in the news that we've only heard 'CIA lead SEAL teams'? That's because that is all they can say. This isn't wholly inaccurate, but it isn't accurate either. So back to Sadam. Sadam was found by a team of lucky grunts out on patrol. They snapped photos of him, they have families they can go visit, they have Facebook pages. Besides the fact that they were out in a desert in fatigues, we are talking about Average Joes. It'd be like a fisherman pulling in a massive catch. Of course they'd shoot pictures. Now the hanging of Sadam? That wasn't carried out by the U.S., that was Iraq through and through and we only have video of that because a guy snuck in a camera phone.

I don't think you understand who DevGru and the SAD/SOG are. These are people who, probably existed at some point, but don't exist anymore. It may sound like I'm exaggerating, but I'm not. These people do not exist officially. Their identities are carefully protected with the strictest measures, before any photos can be released, before any audio can be released, before any video can be released, before anything can be released the most careful measures to protect against compromising identities must be undertaken. These people are professionals to an extent that is staggering, there would be no leaks of information before it was time do so. Not from these guys.

There is talk of the video and photos being released soon, but I doubt it will happen because that sort of negates the careful steps taken to minimize damage.

EDIT: meant to say "do not exist" instead of "do exist".

[deleted]

or better yet, put on trial so we can hear his case.

There is talk of the video and photos being released soon, but I doubt it will happen because that sort of negates the careful steps taken to minimize damage.

There's obviously a lot of denial going on.

If the USA does not produce convincing proof that they got him, this won't look like much of a victory in places like Palestine, Iran, and the Arab world in general.

The victory was in the operation. But they do not want to turn him into a martyr than he already is. No way he's coming back alive or dead to US soil. The rammifications of that in other parts of the world would be very bad for the US.

Isn't that what the US is suppose to do? Bring criminals to justice and have a trial? As opposed to just going out and shooting them?

The US as we once knew it.

:(

:(

Well Blak, you aren't wrong but you aren't right either. Ideally you bring back ringleaders and such, send them to Hague and put them on trial but that wouldn't have happened. OBL was a polarizing figure. The politicians here would have wanted OBL in America (or Guantanamo), the U.N. would have wanted him sent to Hague. The original plan, the one that Obama's security council told him to use, was just to bomb the compound with B2's dropping 2,000 pound JDAM's. So, he would have died either way. Just this way we have more evidence to say we killed him.

Ya, i guess. The conspirator inside of me says that they brought him back dead 'cause he's been dead for years. But that guy can hush now. Throwing him in solitary for a few years might have been interesting.

And potentially the worst decision. I got called a racist (on Reddit no less) because I said that it was a bad idea to have held onto him due to the nature of the people in these terrorists cells. A bad decision would have been holding onto the body for more than 24 hours. An even worse decision would have been to do that while figuring out who to hand the body over to.

Oh whatever. If people are actually "worried" that holding onto his body for more than 24 hours will piss off the muslims then they have no idea how much invading their countries and murdering hundreds of thousands of people will piss them off.

Right, and the sea burial was to prevent a shrine to him, as far as I can tell. No place of burial to visit, no shrine.

No place of burial to visit, no shrine.

I mentioned this in another thread yesterday, and someone pointed out to me that it's against Saudi (IIRC) laws/traditions to have any sort of shrine, and that even Saudi kings are buried in unmarked graves.

This is true, but people still do visit grave sites. A lot of the fighting we see between Palestine and Israel is over the possible locations of places where some people might have been buried. Maybe. So if you know where the guy is buried, even if it is an unmarked grave, they are still going to visit it. Probably not the average person, but the extremists who idolized him? Certainly. If you get rid of the body, you cut that notion right in the Achilles.

TIL, thanks.

There's obviously a lot of denial going on.

Aside from your pessimism what gives you that idea?

There was still no video released? I saw the news in passing and could have sworn I saw a night-vision-esque video playing.

DevGru and the SAD/SOG

I've never heard of these. Can you explain more? Are they officially US military? How are they organized?

Sure.

DevGru used to be known by the name SEAL Team 6. They are a Tier 1 Special Operations group, there are three tiers to the system. This list here: Tier List is mostly accurate, the only problem is it doesn't include the ISA but they don't really belong to any branch of the armed forces. They are the only Tier 1 intel group while the USAF 24th is a support group that does the piloting. So there are four Tier 1 groups total, but only two of them put boots on the ground and carry out the missions. At the top of the list you have an unknown tier of special operations, that is SAD/SOG. They belong to the CIA and consist of people recruited out of Delta (Tier 1) and DevGru (Tier 1) plus normal CIA operatives. For the record, tier does not mean better skilled. The tiers are merely there for the levels of black area they work in. Tier 1 = Black missions. Tier 2 = Grey missions. Tier 3 = White missions. The more denial needed for a mission, the higher up the tiers you go.

In addition to this, SOF units in the U.S. are numerous as a mother fucker. There are several not listed on this graph but they are all pretty much Tier 3 and Tier 2 guys, so it doesn't matter. Every single SOF group is trained in particular fields. For most part, a lot of them receive much of the same general training (taken to different degrees and different lengths with different methods), but then you need to specialize. The human body can only specialize in so many things. So when people wonder why we have so many SOF groups, it is because for the most part they do different things. Think of a scalpel tray in an operating room, most of the scalpels will look the same at first glance but when you really look at them they are different. And it is the subtle difference in them that makes one more apt for a mission than the other.

Green Berets are excellent at working within the populace to set up rebel networks, or support previously established ones. They are also wonderful at helping the general populace get used to a prolonged American presence. These are the dudes that the native populations tend to like because they let them do more for themselves. CCT's for example are one of the smallest SOF groups there is. I'd go so far as to reckon they could possibly be the smallest since DevGru, Delta, and SOG/SAD's numbers are classified. Their job is to be pathfinders, navigators, and to call in air support. CCT's are extremely skilled operators in their own right, but they are also one of the few military units that is usually seen being protected by everyone else due to their important role.

So back to the official nature of DevGru, SAD/SOG, and Delta. Well, I can say for sure that the U.S. government does not acknowledge the actions of all three. I also know that they do not acknowledge DevGru, and Delta as existing, but... SAD/SOG is something else.

As for the organization, that varies. I couldn't even start with SAD/SOG because I know so little about them. DevGru and Delta change so frequently that the only info we have on their structure is a decade or two old. Those aren't even likely their names anymore. We just call them that since it was the last official name used. At one point though Delta was structured like the SAS, but I have heard that was officially changed thanks to Cheney. I can't cite that last bit, but that's what I've heard.

Thanks for clearing that up

No problem.

That's cool stuff.

If only there were some way to get this information instantly and in a detailed fashion. When oh when, will someone invent such a thing?

And I'm sure the reason txmslm asked Weakgrip (as opposed to utilizing Google) is because Weakgrip has a great way of explaining things, thus saving time from reading an entire Wikipedia article.

Well thank you, I appreciate it.

There was video and photographs taken at the scene, of the autopsy and of the body being tossed out into the ocean. Muslim burial rites respected, of course. It just hasn't been released yet.

Yeh, they're still working with Photoshop and FinalCut trying to get them right.

No this ^ is why we need r/conspiracy! Nice.

I'm not arguing you in any way, you seem to have a lot of relevant information that I'm very interested in. Would you be able to give me sources of information pertaining to:

Right. There was four helicopters. Two with a mix of DevGru and SOG/SAD and another two on standby that were PJ's should it be a trap or something goes horrifically wrong

I've not read anything saying anything other than two helicopters and DevGru guys. Not disputing you, just want to read more of what you're citing.

That means that they had 18 to 19 hours left to do something, anything with the body. The brain of Osama's sister is in the hands of the CIA, and was to be used for DNA testing should they find him. Guess what? They did just that. The testing was done on the ship, and they already had a DNA reference to compare it to. This takes no more than 12 hours to do these days, even under less than ample conditions.

I've not seen anything to establish a timeline of 18 to 19 hours, everything I've seen was 5-6 hours. Also the thing about his sister's brain? where is that from because that's really interesting to think about.

Because destroying U.S. military equipment in the event of an accident is quite literally priority one after retrieval. You do not let equipment fall into anyone else's hands, no matter how innocuous it might be.

and that's fully understandable I guess? Lots of people are saying that but where can information about that issued by the military be obtained, like a field ops manual or something related in the past. My interpretation has always been that so so much gear was left in Vietnam that had to be brought back after the fact but I fully concede that this is a topic I know very very little about beyond my own speculation and conjecture.

Also, more than anything else I'd like to know more about your background because you seem like you have a military background and some interesting things to say/stories to tell.

Please don't misconstrue this, I'm not being a dick, I'm really interested in learning relevant material.

So the four helicopters (two modified Black Hawks, maybe Sea Hawks) and two Chinooks along with PJ's as back up originally comes from this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/03/world/asia/03intel.html

NYT tossed out the most accurate numbers. Other information regarding PJ's was from... shit, I think Telegraph. I'm having trouble remember where I read that. However that article is pretty much the basis for this entire operation's numbers and the vehicles involved. Only four copters would make this work. The rumor of two of the copters being Chinooks also fits this operation. Chinooks have a carrying capacity of anywhere between 30 to 50 people. Blawk Hawks can carry a few over a dozen each. Everyone is reporting just over two dozen DevGru and SOG/SAD people on the ground attacking the compound. This fits the numbers two Black Hawks can carry. One of the Black Hawks crashed. So you need to get the other half of the personnel out, how? The Chinooks. There's nothing conflicting with this. Even if the numbers are well below the assumed count by the NYT, and there was only four Black Hawks then it works. As I said earlier, in an emergency you can cram more people inside and put people on the outside of the copters.

As for the brain, that story was run by ABC. Since then there was an update where they couldn't substantiate the claim that his sister was in the hospital they claimed she was. However, when inquired about this the FBI hasn't denied the story either. I accidentally said it was in the hands of the CIA last night. So, allow me to correct for that. Story with update:

http://thephoenix.com/BLOGS/phlog/archive/2011/05/02/osama-s-sister-s-brain-the-boston-connection.aspx

The exact timeline to my knowledge hasn't been nailed down yet, but I expect it to be. My 18-19 hours was just to remark how much time they had to do things. Not how long it took for them to dispose of the body.

Although I don't feel like diving through Army manuals on the correct procedure to destroy equipment, but this is done regularly. If you want a pretty well known example, just look up all of the Abrams we destroyed because they were disabled. Or I'll do it for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_M1_Abrams#Gulf_War

And no, I don't have a military background or will even claim to. I'm not some 1337 OPERATOR LOLOL, despite the fact I wish I was, haha.

That's good stuff. I'm still reading through a lot of it. Thanks.

I don't know why you even bother with these nut jobs. This forum is full of people who think that they are smarter than they are, lack common sense about how the world works and lack critical thinking skills.

Not only that, but if you don't buy into their conspiracy you're just another sheep who refuses to open your eyes. Because, you know, they have it all figured out after reading the same information the rest of us have. This subreddit has been full of people just jizzing in their pants over every conceivable potential for conspiracy over the past couple of days.

The ideas here are ridiculous. I win.

Saddam Hussein +his sons were Muslim & their dead bodies were displayed.

Just sayin.

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200307/25/eng20030725_120951.shtml

True, but different administration. This presidency has "made strides to be more internationally friendly" or some bullshit like that.

They were also not under the control of the US Military at the time of their deaths.

I beg to differ:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uday_Hussein

Uday Saddam Hussein al-Tikriti (18 June 1964 – 22 July 2003), (Arabic: عُدي صدّام حُسين‎) was the elder son of Saddam Hussein and his first wife, Sajida Talfah. He was the brother of Qusay Hussein. Uday was for several years seen as the heir apparent of his father; however, Uday lost this due to his erratic behavior and troubled relationship with his father and brother. Following the United States-led invasion of Iraq in 2003, he was killed along with Qusay by a secretive combined Special Forces Task Force (Task Force 20) during a brief gunfight in Mosul.

...

...

...

The U.S. Administration released graphic pictures of the brothers' bodies. When criticized, the U.S. military's response was to point out that these men were no ordinary combatants and to express hope that confirmation of the deaths would bring closure to the Iraqi people.[18]

http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHNU_enUS331US331&q=Uday+Hussein&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi&biw=1066&bih=594

(nsfw/L)

And we caught huge flak for that. So you're saying we should have just done it again? Just like we caught huge flak for raising an America flag in Baghdad and it was from there on banned.

It's Osama fucking Bin laden. instead of basically pissing on his corpse by dumping it in the ocean (AGAINST muslim burial rights contrary to the asshollery on tv) take a few pictures and post them so every blood thirsty american can get their fill

it is NOT about getting their fill dumbass.

yeah it is. Americans claim they're better than that, but no, they're not. What i saw the other day was no different than the videos we all saw on 9/11 of muslims celebrating

remember these "huge" crowds...hah

http://silencedmajority.blogs.com/.a/6a00d834520b4b69e20115711e5595970b-pi

LOL...never saw this before. And americans STILL fall for this shit. Simply amazing

It's not against Muslim burial rights if the grave may be desecrated. We've already covered this.

We as in who? I'll side with muslim clerics over reddit speculators

You're suppose to be buried with your head/face facing Mecca, so i hear.

This whole situation is strange and there are too many inconsistencies with the story. It seems logical to me to assume that we are once again being lied to, as usual, to aid some other political agenda. Nice work with all the research and putting that all together too.

Rigth now we're on the 'Saving Private Lynch' stage: official sequence of events complete with kinetic actions, dirty, sleazy maneuvers of archi-villain (using his wife as human shiedl, the rascal!) and puzzling but needed-for-national-security disposal of evidence. As time passes and details emerge we may see a different timeframe, there may be pieces of the puzzle that'll darken the current pretty picture.

Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation

Edit: Holy shit it's my cakeday. Awwww YEaaah!!

I know it seems unlikely, especially given the subreddit we are in, but the cake is a truth.

Happy birthday \o/

They only have to keep up the lie until people are tired of it and don't care anymore.

Which in today's media culture might be, what, three days?

two weeks for the multiple stories on the front page and then another two weeks for the front page stories to end.

Yep.

As time passes, the people in charge of handling the media will get their ducks in a row, and fill in any holes in the offical story. The time to discover inconsistancies is now, before the damage control boys go to work.

Its ultimately pointless. Do you really need to see the lost footage of the towers exploding under controlled demolition. What is a fresh angle really going to demonstrate to a thinking mind a this point?

This Osama stuff is a contrived operation. To me what is more important is the next thing that they are going to try to pull off because of this.

To me what is more important is the next thing that they are going to try to pull off because of this.

Yes, let's just give up on trying to understand what is going ...

Oh, look!

A shiny thing!

Let's look at that instead!

We are all going to move on from this and every other thing. It looks like it is a big fake. Certainly people will find out the details and share them. My point is that once we know it is a fake I don't understand how adding detail after detail moves us forward. Granted we are only a few days later so its still relevant but I want to know for example what the next false flag event is so that I 1) survive it and 2) profit from it. His death is fake fake fake, I get it. Wanting to move on at some point in the future doesn't mean that I have no attention span. I still know that the story is fake and that he wasn't killed that day. Just because I am going to be doing something else next week doesn't mean that I am a double-think zombie.

[deleted]

Do you think that we are fighting anything here in r/conspiracy? This information doesn't get out there.

We can save ourselves and our family and friends if they still have a brain. Most of my relatives do not however so I hope that you have better luck with yours.

Nope I'm met with resistance and sighs almost everytime, so I try a different method the next time. Your choice is your own sir, but I won't give up this fight (and by fight I mean spreading knowledge, information and critical thinking). If we're not fighting anything here, then lets take it to the proper places, usually worldnews!

If only sighs were my experience. I'm met with sharp opposition and fury. An practical example would be trying to get my family to buy some gold or silver either physical, mining shares or ETFs. Nope, they won't have any of it. I've begged them to get 1-2% into these things back when the price was $700-900. Now its approaching $1600. Do I get a nod of recognition? Not even in the slightest. Their small box is built with reinforced titanium polymers (and maybe alien nano-technology?). There is zero approval and zero validation as I become increasing right and as we move closer to what people on this subreddit know is coming. So I'm focusing on y'all folks here, who are at least interested (not to say that I know everything at all). Everybody has their own audience. For me my ideas and words in any format provoke extreme anger in average folks so that is not my cause. So I'm not on a holy mission to save everyone. Seriously I'm quite pessimistic and I think that the drugged out baby boomers need to just die off and that situation will take care of itself without me lifting a finger. I believe that Americas crash is guaranteed. I think that we would already be in it now if the free market were allowed to flourish. Then perhaps we would have some difficult several years and the next generation would not even need to worry about about the shit that we have to deal with. Well though just look around you. These people are not capable of stopping what is coming. I might be willing to return to help with the rebuilding but I refuse to be here when things are full on bad. The disparity between what I will be perceiving and what others around me will be perceiving will be too great and I will feel too alienated to be of much use. I can deal with the alienation but I don't see the point. I've had an audience of thirty Chinese before who were very eager to here me speak about anything that I wanted. Compared to here (US) it is an astronomically large difference. I have enough cultural experience and reference points to know how good things can be and I have more faith in other parts of the world than I do the US. I think that probably the renaissance will not begin in the US but in other parts. Also I am of European ancestry who has only been here four generations. We celebrate the brave people who came here long ago to escape the futile and brutal conditions in their lands but now we denounce anybody who leaves here in that same vein to simply shed the great weight. We are not entitled to be relevant, interesting or prepared. Basically I am ready for a revolution but obviously others are not because they still feel like the system is serving them more than it is hindering them. So there needs to be some kind of consensus there and obviously there is currently no such thing. Also I am a master of computer technology so my location on the planet is not of much importance for me to contribute and also I am not the best at navigating the mind field of common perception. There are hundreds of implanted trigger words that set people off and I will leave that to others more skilled in that art. I speak to the aware and anything beyond that is beyond aggravating for me.

Anyways, I type quickly.

[edit] Additionally Americans have religious faith in their Illuminati paper. There is not cure for this delusion except hyper inflation and misery.

I hear ya man.

This is the exact commentary in my head when i think of such things...'oooh Dancing with the stars....foooootballl.'

I would guess a "retaliation" by Osama's crew.

"If al-Qaida does launch an attack inside the U.S. ... it will be much bigger than 9/11." -- retired CIA veteran Michael Scheuer, July 25th, 2007.

re-election?

I suppose that is a necessary thing not to overlook. I think that something more is required though like the next false flag.

puzzling but needed-for-national-security disposal of evidence.

I don't know if it was fake, but I recall seeing the leaked execution video of Saddam Hussein. Assuming it was genuine, how come that was leaked but we can't get a single toe from Osama Bin Laden? I'll continue to believe that it never happened. Know why? Because most politicians are liars, and I'd rather eat shit for telling the truth than have my ass wiped by George Bush for lying.

You want a toe? I can get you a toe, believe me. There are ways, Dude. You don't wanna know about it, believe me.

Hell, I can get you a toe by 3 o'clock this afternoon... with nail polish. These fucking amateurs...

Have you got any ears?

Obviously, you're not a golfer.

how come that was leaked but we can't get a single toe from Osama Bin Laden?

Because nobody there had enough sympathy for him to record a vid and post it up?

As time passes and details emerge we may see a different timeframe, there may be pieces of the puzzle that'll darken the current pretty picture.

But there's no Private Lynch or Iraqi Doctors to spill the beans as to what did actually happen.

one thing we can be SURE of is that it did not happen exactly as we have been told

[deleted]

This is a great post and exactly the sort of thing most threads in /r/conspiracy lack: proper skepticism, an attempt at rationalism, and actual sources.

That said, let's take some of your points into consideration:

The reason I brought up the cost of the helicopter is to point out that the SEALS either detonated and destroyed a $35 million dollar piece of equipment or a $14 million dollar piece of equipment. Why?

The reason these machines cost so many millions of dollars is because of the serious hi-tech equipment they're filled with: weaponry, guidance systems, positioning systems, state-of-the-art shielding, and so on. If it crashes and it can't reasonably be protected until it's recovered, the only way to stop that technology being scavenged by insurgents is to blow the thing up.

Either way, you mean to tell me that the body was positively ID'd in the 4 hours it was in flight?

The body didn't necessarily need to be identified while in flight, DNA samples can be taken and checked later on.

I would imagine that based on the presumed 28-33 people (20 SEALS + 8 crewmen or 25 SEALS + 8 crewmen) that either way it is highly unlikely that 28 (or 33) men are all going to fit on one helicopter. Now I'm not arguing that it's impossible, I'm just saying it's unlikely.

The Federation of American Scientists say that the CH47 is capable (depend on the configuration) of carrying as many as 44 seated troops. Bear in mind also that in a situation like this where there's no other line of retreat, nobody's complaining about being crammed in like sardines or not having enough leg room :)

Going back to the whitehouse.gov press release found here:

The Official may have just misspoken and didn't realise he'd said "mechanical failure" in the earlier sentence, or perhaps he did realise but wasn't meant to have revealed it was mechanical failure and was trying to reassert that he wasn't confirming it at all. This is just speculation, of course. I'm curious to know what significance you think this part has?

With regards to the rest of your post, I don't have any reasonable answer regarding PMA Kakul because I'm not familiar enough with it to speculate, but maybe someone else can chime in.

Again, your post is fantastic and it's awesome that you went to the trouble to actually find sources and do the work.

I appreciate it. I felt stupid after I wrote it. This is the first thing I've posted on reddit that's actually gotten comments. It feels really really weird.

The reason these machines cost so many millions of dollars is because of the serious hi-tech equipment they're filled with: weaponry, guidance systems, positioning systems, state-of-the-art shielding, and so on. If it crashes and it can't reasonably be protected until it's recovered, the only way to stop that technology being scavenged by insurgents is to blow the thing up

I guess the biggest issue I have with that train of thought, and I'm not saying it's wrong, is that you heard about the Russians having a fire sale after the cold war of all the Soviet weapons and arms, you hear about China getting a hold of things from pakistan, you hear about this tech trading all the time. You hear about Brazil requesting chinook helicopters to buy from other governments, I mean you would imagine that at this point tech is tech and just about everyone's got the same stuff. I mean we're talking about Pakistan, a largely militarily active country in a relatively dangerous and active place, to me and this is purely conjecture, wouldn't pakistan have the same crap?

The problem isn't (just) the Pakistani military getting a hold of technology, it's insurgents and "terrorists" scavenging the wreck that they're worried about. Also, whether the level of technology involved is a factor or not, you certainly don't want to increase the amount of weaponry the other side has if you can avoid it, and I imagine that chopper had a bunch of missiles and other weapons that could have been scavenged.

I don't think you should feel stupid for being honest and trying to inquire about something, that's the hallmark of a true skeptic and someone who values rationality. It would be silly to ignore evidence and make wild assumptions and treat them as fact, but that's not what you're doing -- you have questions, and you're looking for answers.

They blow it up to stop bits and pieces getting into the hands of the people around the area its part of procedure they use quite often.

This, basically. The crew size thing has been bugging me as well.

You really think that a US Blackhawk, on perhaps one of the most important missions in the last decade, would succumb to "mechanical failure"?

That bird was shot down and the story was twisted.

A couple of bullets holes in the wrong places, the thing lands and doesn't get up any more. Just because it is on "one of the most important missions in the last decade" doesn't mean it is made out of diamond all of a sudden.

I completely agree with that, but "Mechanical Failure" makes it sound as though it was just that. The US media/military refuses to admit that our weapons of war are vulnerable.

What I was originally thinking was that it was a hell of a lot more of a fight than we're hearing and that someone brought out an RPG or a mortar or something and put up a fight. Instead of this being a bag and tag it became a real battle and for publicity sake the US doesn't want to spin it that way.

Shit happens. Heck, we had a helo crash on ANZAC day here :/

We did? Where?

Sorry, i meant we as in NZ...different chopper...what I mean is, shit happens, stuff breaks down, and sometimes you dont know its going to happen.

Sorry, being an arrogant ethnocentric aussie I immediately assumed you meant Australia. Sometimes I forget it's "ANZAC" and not "AAC" :P

What I really smell is more wagging of the dog... Good post!

A Pakistani newspaper's take on this.

Ironically today is the tenth anniversary of “Mission Accomplished”.

...or the 8th anniversary.

... and it's not ironic. It's coincidental.

President Obama has used this as a propaganda stunt to uplift his sagging ratings. He will use it as a blunt instrument against the birthers, schoolers and Tea-Beggers, and Right wing Republicans who have been deriding him for his Muslim middle name, the color of his skin, his Kenyan background, and his Indonesia schooling

:D

FTA:

Laden was the founder of the CIA database which was created to fight the USSR. The “Database” later deteriorated into a terror organization what is now popularly known as Al-Qaida. The US went to war against Al-Qadea [...]

Hmm.... I think I'll be bookmarking this article.

Al-Qadea means 'the base'

It is also slang for toilet... hrmmm http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message498373/pg1

Why? That site is completely bonkers.

Interesting perspective.

Hmmmm....

This article should also be a separate post I think people often forget the CIA tie.over all this story is too strange to believe no body?I mean really? !and then on local news the reporters our talking about how terrorism is going to get worse not better now further pushing the terror/fear agenda ?I really don't think that other countries are going to buy this one.I see more of these articles coming out in the future.

Punctuation is your friend.

Yea it was on phone and I was ranting aorry

I really don't think that other countries are going to buy this one.I see more of these articles coming out in the future.

Agree.

I am really shocked how many Americans are buying this tho.

[deleted]

Do you have any compelling evidence that the official story is true?

This is a god damn good post.

yay!

Does anyone else think there is something fishy about how they keep saying, ". . .shot to the head". I'm paranoid and a cynic but when I read this and hear it over and over it screams assassination. Was it a movie moment when he had the woman as a shield and a brave SEAL took out his .45 and BAM! One shot one kill? Maybe he was shot in the back of the head and that's why they couldn't keep the body. All speculative of course...I'm just saying I don't like it when everyone keeps reaffirming something. I've known some pathological liars that do the same. Yours truly included.

It was reported as close range, they didn't try to cover it up like Che, this was an assassination mission.

Who was the SEAL? Who was the woman? Does the woman still live?

David Icke can break it down in moments like this because he was there selling the shit that he was given and now he outs the whole process.

David Icke's only truth is that there is more going on than the average citizen will ever know in it's life.

Other than that, he claims to be the voice of the God King and to warn us of reptiles in the sky.

Space is too cold for reptiles.

Thank you for putting this all together. This is valuable and insightful.

Thank you for not making me feel as crazy.

Crazy is spouting stuff off without evidence or forethought. What you've done is pretty much the opposite.

One of the helicopters was probably shot and disabled. The whole rush, rush, rush, to dispose of Bin Laden's body stinks to high heaven. Why the rush? Why dispose of the body at all? And don't tell me it was because of Muslim burial customs. They weren't exactly respecting Bin Laden's rights and wishes when they assassinated him, were they?

[deleted]

I don't know, of course, but I would bet they brought the body onboard in a black plastic body bag, and never opened it in public.

Saw this on the BBC just now : they reported during a tour of the compound that there was no dialysis machine to be seen, which contradicts many earlier reports. http://www.snopes.com/rumors/kidney.asp

just a reminder that snopes is jsut run by a couple of people not super human fact reconstructors.

i personally had to correct them on something they once got wrong.

"Snopes is PEOPLE" Charlton Heston (with pop culture license by Georedd)

Blowing up a downed aircraft is common practice by the U.S. military. They have the largest budget in the world so the price tag means nothing. It's simply a piece of equipment, especially in the case of a "dime a dozen" helicopter. We aren't talking about a B-2 or F-22 here, but they would blow those up too. They don't want the enemy to use them and they don't want other countries to get a hold of potentially advanced technology inside of it.

To fuel your conspiracy though... I'm an air traffic controller, I've never seen a helo fly at 190mph. 110-130kts is a more realistic cruising speed. That converts to 126-150mph.

And they're not even necessarily worried about the country that it crashed in getting ahold of that technology. What they are worried about is that country selling the wreckage to a different country. Believe it or not, it has happened before:

Chinese Stealth Jet May Use U.S. Technology

I've never seen a helo fly at 190mph. 110-130kts is a more realistic cruising speed. That converts to 126-150mph.

Yeah I figured top speed was unrealistic given adverse weather or winds, I was just using is for the sake of mathematical argument.

I don't understand how anyone can speculate whether this is faked or not. This is fake and gay! No body, no photos, no video evidence of a body, perfect timing, different stories by multiple major media outlets and so on. Obama did this for ratings. I feel insane right now, I can't believe people are buying this shit.

Fake and GAY! How did this bit of propoganda get so fabulous?!

oh, thank you for having a nicer response than I did to that! It makes it almost charming.

It's something from 4chan.

Saying that Obama did this for ratings is like saying that Bush Jr. invaded Iraq to avenge the attack on his father. This was an enabling event for the next war, which is far beyond Obama.

We're already in Libya fighting for more faceless causes.

This was an enabling event for the next war

That's irrelevant to the question as to whether they got him or not.

Did they get him?

To me its irrelevant because I know that he didn't get the air force to stand down nor did he put the thermate in the buildings nor did he launch three wars in justification of those events.

I know, I can't believe those gay soldiers had sex with osama before they killed him, so fucking gay

Man people really are spoiled nowadays. When Hitler was killed did you get photographs of his corpse the next day? How about the atomic bombings?

Now i know this is the age of technology and what not but really you ran out of patience only after a day? I mean cmon...

I don't think anyone in here believes Hitler died either :P

http://just-another-inside-job.blogspot.com/2007/04/hitler-died-in-1960-in-argentina.html

this is the age of technology and what not

Precisely. The standard of transparency that must be met in a democracy is that much higher because the technology allows it.

Hitler also died on May 1st, is that a coincidence?

Oh, come the fuck on! You said it yourself, this is the age of technology. We learn news in seconds flat. Don't even, dude. We found out that Osama had been captured and then tossed into the sea within two hours. This isn't WWII, moron.

Yeah but that doesn't mean you release things right as they come in. Lets say you take bunch of pictures over day, do you just post them online as soon as they are taken? No you look over them like any rational human would and make sure there isn't anything sensitive in them.

It took a significantly larger amount of time for the death of Hitler to reach the world because there were no fucking cameras present. US soldiers wear helmet cams. HUGE DIFFERENCE IN ERAS! I can watch a fight on public transit, film it and text it to a friend in less then five minutes. Stop comparing apples to oranges. This Osama shit is fake and gay.

I guess i should not expect reason and logic on such a subreddit.

If you don't bring reason and logic don't expect it.

I find it hard to believe Navy SEALS would not be equipped with a camera somewhere on them, one of them atleast. Especially going into a mission like this

You're right, man! I, too, find it hard to believe that elite troops - troops, I might add, that are already very used to participating in highly secretive operations - wouldn't release pictures from the highest profile operation imaginable, even if they were directly ordered not to do so.

Wait... no, I don't. I imagine these are exactly the sort of guys that would follow orders, and not release pictures from the highly secretive operation.

As a general rule, they are equipped with helmet cams.

They were. In fact it was broadcast live to the president and his defense team.

Its not an issue of these not existing, its an issue of releasing footage of a team that technically does not exist. I'm certain that a photo of Bin Laden's body will be released in the short-term, but even that comes with a risk of inflaming tensions.

This article should also be a separate post I think people often forget the CIA tie.over all this story is too strange to believe no body?I mean really? !and then on local news the reporters our talking about how terrorism is going to get worse not better now further pushing the terror/fear agenda ?I really don't think that other countries are going to buy this one.I see more of these articles out in the future.

The arrow is over the wrong compound, here is the right location: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=34.182308,+73.245075&aq=&sll=34.181977,73.245839&sspn=0.006861,0.009645&ie=UTF8&t=h&ll=34.169306,73.242577&spn=0.00229,0.004823&z=18

That being said, it still is too close for comfort.

I think the second helicopter was used to transport Osama and possibly all the other victims to the scene. Seems staged to me. I think Osama died of boredom years ago. It makes no sense to get rid of the body of a man that most of the world has been wanting to see dead for over a decade.

How about to not fuel hatred. Can you imagine what the terrorists would say were his body not treated with care? "Not only do they want to kill us in this life, they want to prevent our afterlife. HOLY WAR LOLOLOLOL"

http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHNU_enUS331US331&q=Uday+Hussein&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi&biw=1066&bih=594

Detonating the heli makes sense. Either they leave without it and leave it for either the Pakistani military or some actual Al Queda guys. Who says the first thing they did with the body was bury it at sea. Have you considered that they took it to a closer airbase before taking it to an aircraft carrier where it was "buried"? You say it all needed to happen in 4 hours but what if it took longer by taking the body to a base first where it is identified?

Standard military procedure is that you destroy sensitive equipment before it falls into enemy hands. We had axes in the radio room of our ship for exactly that purpose. If the ship was going down, we were supposed to bash the shit out of the crypto gear before we headed for the lifeboats.

The real question here is that why didnt the US take him alive. He was trapped in a room and unarmed. Couldn't these SEALS toss a couple of flash grenades in there and grab him? Why didn't the US government want him brought back to face trial?

That's the real conspiracy, not how many helos were on the mission, or how long the DNA test took.

What I've been thinking is that the whole thing was not an ambush and in fact it was a battle. Which ruins the sort of spin you'd want to put on this kind of thing to make the conquering heroes look like ninjas who came in the night, took care of business and departed without disturbing a leaf of grass. Because that kind of thing sells. The image of these guys showing up, getting into a fire fight and having mortars or RPG's shot at the helicopters makes it look a lot less flawless and therefore less controlled. If this was a capture mission it would have been a capture (so we're to be told anyway) instead it seems a lot like a massacre in the night (so we're to be told anyway). I subscribe to the same sort of thinking that maybe he was going to start running his mouth and they wanted him gone for good.

I'd like to thank you for your post and your scrutiny over citing sources. Like you said, it's in the details that get weird you find yourself finding more and more inconsistencies. There are just too many coincidences and inconsistencies to be able to believe such a bad cover-up. The timing, the news coverage, and even the faked evidence

I'd like to thank you and every one here for supporting the same idea that there's some things out of whack here.

It's easy, if we don't ever hear from osama again, the US government is probably telling the truth.

This would be a pretty bold lie, possibly the greatest conspiracy ever. I really don't feel like they would try something his bold.

I think that more people assume he's been dead for a while than think he's still alive.

My assumption was that Bin Laden has been dead for years. So if it's true they just killed him a week or so ago, I'm surprised. So are a lot of other prominent people on the public record ... but you will see them moving away from their former position, and pretending that they were unsure whether he was dead or alive, so as to cover their asses.

So they just ginned up this incident to tie up a loose end?

If so, why would they make the circumstances of his capture so embarrassing and bizarre? Right now where he was found screams that at least some people in the Pakistani government, probably the ISI, were deliberately hiding him.

Why not just stage it in some remote spot in the Northwest Frontier Province, which is where many thought he might be all these years?

this is one of the questions that is yet to be resolved

if we don't ever hear from osama again

The last few videos do seem to have looked a bit cobbled together, a la Videodrome.

Anyone wanna check my numbers here:

3:00pm EST 01/03/2011 - Osama killed

11:00pm EST 01/03/2011 - Obama announces kill

1:10am EST 02/03/2011 - Osama buried at sea.

So in short, it took 10 hours to

1) Collect the body

2) Fly a Chinook Helicopter 1500 km at at 350kmph for 4 and a half hours to the North Arabian Sea (where he was reportedly buried)

3) Land the chopper on the USS Carl Vinson.

4) Perform DNA Testing (which can SOMETIMES be pushed to as quick as 72 hours if an urgent criminal case requires it)

5) Then throw him overboard in a shroud as per muslim tradition

[deleted]

Thanks mate... seems like they could make it all happen within the timeframe if they had everything pre-organised.

The most likely theory I've heard so far is that Bin Laden was being kept either prisoner or protected in that military compound.... Pakistan saw the US get closer, then realized he'd get caught and told the US where he was.....

That building is clearly a military compound, not a mansion....

Too much of the world's drug suppyl comes from that region. You might be right - we were getting closer, and to prevent anything from effecting the international drug trade their leaders gave him up to use and therefore retain control of their crop for the next few years anyway...

This goes way more into it than I had gone, I was suspicious when I heard they dumped the body within 24 hours to honour an Islamist belief, when after we got Saddam's kids their bodies were on display for 11 days.

I also find it hard to believe we killed him with a clean shot to the eye and not know who or what we were shooting at until a WEEK later

I think it's important to consider that there may have indeed been a corpse of Obama, whether fresh from where he was being kept or having been on ice since 2001. Purposefully holding back proof for a while and then dropping the bombshell of photos, videos, DNA results etc. would destroy the credibility of many, many people.

So WTF.... is it all a big Hollywood cover up? Why no one talk of this?? http://www.infowars.com/inside-sources-bin-ladens-corpse-has-been-on-ice-for-nearly-a-decade/

I've read nothing about Osama using a woman to shield his body. Unless and until someone can provide a decent source citing this, I'm writing it off as just another piece of dirty American propaganda.

Done:

http://www.google.com/search?q=osama+bin+laden+human+shield&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Plenty of sources are reporting it, however it is now being said that it may not have been completely true, which I was not privy to until just now. And that makes sense seeing as several of these sources have just put that information out several hours ago.

I just wanted to leave this right here: http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-world/osama-unarmed-when-shot-dead-us-admits-20110504-1e71d.html

DEVGRU (aka SEAL Team 6, or ST6) would have most likely been brought in on MH-60L by the Army's 160th SOAR. These have extender tanks, getting them a range of ~500 miles, but they certainly have in-flight refueling capacity. They also have a higher top and cruise speed than the standard HH-60 due to upgraded engines.. They carry 4 crew, and up to 12 pax. This means two helos were used to get them in. A third helo (supposedly) was brought in to assist with extraction. Let's say 20 DEVGRU and 8 crew. 1 helo lost adds 4 crew to be extracted, for a total of 24 for extraction... That fits perfectly onto two MH-60L. They would bring an extra "empty" helo for backup purposes, and may have had a 4th with additional DEVGRU should it be necessary.

The destruction of the aircraft left behind would be necessary, in order to prevent cryptographic (especially the HaveQuick units) equipment from falling into enemy hands. The other amounts of tech on the aircraft is insignificant.

I would say that this is nothing but a well-executed mission that had a singular small speedbump.

Maybe some of the team evacuated on foot, or a support vehicle picked them up away from the area?

Don't believe everything the media cites. MSNBC ran with the fake bin Laden photo. Too many journalists and outlets misreport big stories too often. They all see the glass half empty or half full.

I think an over arching point to this is that we don't know (or I, personally, have not heard/seen) the exact minute by minute schedule of how and when things happened.

So that the time frames involved are not clear yet. That makes it hard to talk about distances, just yet...

I'm going to assume that the direct combat operations were done via helicopter as we have heard and been told. But I'm also going to assume that there was a covert staging center nearby that quite possibly had jet transport waiting on the ground. I'm absolutely completely making this up, and have never heard them say it, but I think its un reasonable to assume they flew 900 miles by helo with the heavy load they have. The choppers don't have the flight range either. Ferry range of 1,380 mi. Combat radius is 368mi (both from your wikipedia article).

which takes me directly to ...

(personal conjecture) I think the destroyed helo was a fuel tanker to increase the range of the other 3 combat transports. They drained it of all its fuel to reac the location, and then destroyed it since it had used its purpose. Destroying it protects the sensitive avionics on board the craft, and also allows them to make a diversion. The "mechanical failure" story is a cover. Simply because if they say that it was a fuel tanker, it gives people a "range" of operations, and they can figure out how SEAL TEAM 6 does its dirty work.

As for how many people that were being transported. I agree with you that 3 choppers is a tight fit for that many people. Though the fuel tanker may just have had 2 on board, and I think they only took 2 or 3 people captive.

Combined with the number "25" I heard for how many SEAL Operators were involved, thats 2+3+25 = 30.

Wikipedia says that each Blackhawk can carry 14 troops.

These are all rough numbers based on my own reading/hearing, but I there is plenty of room in the remaining 3 choppers to carry the 30 persons + captured assets. (body, computer equipment, physical documents).

In conclusion. 1. The idea that they used 4 Blackhawks (of some modfication, I'm sure) to assault the compound makes perfect sense. Because of operational range, I made up the idea that one of them was a fuel tanker that was intended to be destroyed. 2. Because of the 900 mile range back to the Carl Vincent in the Arabian Sea, I'm guessing they had jet transport waiting for them somewhere near by. What kind of jet? no idea. Maybe they got on an S3 transport, and went right to the carrier. Or maybe they got in something ground based, and transfered one more time to a carrier based plane before getting to the Carl Vincent. Its the ONLY thing I can guess that makes sense for the time frames they were talking about.

Additionally. Obama didn't get up and speak until they had CONFIRMATION of his body being his. (assuming you beleive that, this is /r/conspiracy, afterall). So operations had been in motion for a while before we knew anything was up. Unless you were randomly fowllowing that guy on twitter who was live blogging the event before he realized what was going on in his home town... http://www.reallyvirtual.com/the-guy-who-liveblogged-the-osama-raid-without-knowing-it/

With all that said. Blowing up one of these is a operational decision, its pennies compared to the worth of the success of the mission.

So, ignoring the ideas that Osama's been dead for years... and that this was just a show piece for the media... I think this makes the most sense. To me, based on the idea that they're not using superpowered jet helos out of a bad GI JOE movie...

OH, also. I heard there were FOUR helos involved in the op. Not 3... So maybe my numbers don't make sense if there were only 3 total (one left behnd).

Maybe sky hooks were used to retrieve the soldiers? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulton_surface-to-air_recovery_system

People reported hearing airplanes after the incident ...

I think the destroyed helo was a fuel tanker to increase the range of the other 3 combat transports.

And that's probably the most logical scenario I've heard. But my question is where are you getting that there were more than 2 heli's? I kept hearing only 2. Not disputing, just want to know.

I honestly may be wrong. I've heard 2 or 3 as the number, from different places. I think theres a LOT of mis information floating around.

OK!

I've heard reports of two or three helos. Can't really decide as to how many just yet.

First, the helicopters don't fly always at top speed. Find the cruise speed - they won't fly for forever at top speed, it's not as efficient. Likely, they have a base nearby, and either refueled or switched choppers to get to the ship that they dropped him off in the water. Afghanistan and India are right over the border, a long flight round trip, but there isn't a shortage of FOB's in Afghanistan IMO.

Second, they blow up the helicopter because leaving it is a greater risk. They don't want people to get their hands on it and reverse engineer their tech. It's a security thing. You can't fly it back, so don't leave it either. Planes go down all the time, what do they do? Bomb the fuck out of it. Likely, you'll kill enemy combatants trying to scavenge as well.

Third, I have a feeling that they used blackhawks - some people still think chinooks, but the pictures are showing a tail boom section at the compound. I'm not sure if they used another helicopter other than that, but it's definitely not a chinook tail. Chinooks don't have tails, per se.

Fourth, say they used blackhawks. You really only need a pilot, co-pilot, and maybe a loadmaster type, for the rappelling dudes going out. Maybe. We're talking SEALS here, they don't really need a lot of support other than fly us in, let us do our thing, get us the fuck out. So, we'll assume they carry 15 dudes. 3 crew, 12 dudes - maybe only 2 crew, 13 dudes. Why would you need the two extra crew, if you're packed to the gills with seals - who likely are trained in some form as to what to do on the chopper. So 15 dudes. One chopper goes down, now you've got to cram in 30 dudes into one chopper. Likely, "OK LETS GTFO WE'LL SORT OUT SHOTGUN ON THE WAY OUT!" Plus a body. I think, personally, 3 blackhawks makes more sense. you get ~25 dudes on the ground + crew for all, then two choppers on the way back to split the extras. But even still, 4 crew, 10 dudes apiece for each blackhawk leaves 20 seals on the ground securing this bitch. Blackhawks are pretty large, but when you're in Pakistan, getting everyone out is priority.

Fifth, there likely wasn't any need to go all crazy at the nearby base, as choppers probably go in and out all the time. So, until you hear the gunfire, you don't freak. It took 40 minutes for the whole op. I doubt that there was gunfire for all forty of it. Otherwise, we probably wouldn't have any dudes to bring back home. I imagine 10 minutes, maybe a hair more, while they land, neutralize the threats, go in, kill Osama, then spend the next 30 getting intel in the way of HD's, papers, memos, whatever they can readily find, and getting back onboard and making sure everyone is accounted for. Let's not forget that they were taking fire as soon as they were over the compound, so likely both sides are shooting. Kill the dudes on the roofs, go kill everyone inside, sweep it up, clear it, get the intel, GTFO.

I see what you're getting at though - the news is pretty inconsistent. I mean, shit - we're hearing about it merely hours after it happened. Let's see what shakes out as we go. The thing that bothers me the most is that they dumped the body out in the ocean. And so fast. Although, I believe it because the last thing we want to do is piss off all muslims in the world. We already have enough crazy ones, why make millions angry?

Maybe we'll get lucky and get to watch the firefight cams. The pres watched that shit in real time with Joey Biden and Hill Clinton. So, the video exists, we just need to be able to see it now to be able to dissect it.

Edit: Weakgrip below, has it on lockdown. I get that there are inconsistencies, and that's bothersome, but I really do think that it was a well executed snatch and grab op gone right.

Edit 2: What creeps me out, is hearing that this compound was built in 2005. 2005, let's remember, is the year that Bush closed down the unit hunting Bin Laden. So, after he was basically not wanted anymore, he gets to chill out in this compound. The Bush's and the Bin Ladens go way back - so I fear that our former president is just saving face by saying "Hey guys! Good job!" What a fucker.

some people still think chinooks, but the pictures are showing a tail boom section at the compound.

pictures???

Yes, the ones that cnn, msnbc, fox have all been showing. There is an image of a tailboom hanging over the compound wall. I am on my phone at the moment, otherwise I'd google it for you.

I'm surprised there aren't even more posts like this, the whole thing is fishy. It seems likely that if he died recently and there were zero other casualties, then at the very least it probably wasn't a "firefight", it was an assassination. Beyond that, the dna testing bit is fishy. They can do it in 4 hours, but that's the absolute bare minimum using a fairly new process that hasn't been approved for general use by law enforcement. And there's still the question of getting the sample there, which takes time. It can't be done on the helicopter, it needs good lab conditions.

Wow... you made my day very interesting, you are very good at what you do, keep up that deduction reasoning!

Media may have number of seals wrong. Typically theyre in groups no bigger than 8 I think.

na, team of four. usually.

reference: 1990 film Navy Seals.

reference : they run down silver strand carrying the rib boats in teams of 8...

Charlie Sheen jumps out of a moving convertible over a bridge guardrail, and swims to a house boat in the first 10 minutes of that movie - if I remember right.

Just want to point out that the shortest possible distance from Islamabad to the North Arabian coast (at a spot just north of Karachi) is a little bit over 700 miles. For reference, this is roughly the same distance as from New York to Chicago.

I want to know if the human shield was armed and posed a threat? Otherwise, why kill her?

EDIT: So, anyone care to enlighten me as to why this valid question deserves downvotes?

Did you see the dramatic pictures they posted of the 'mission unfolding'!? Don't think, obey... that's what I've gotten out of the press releases & Osama news.

This whole situation isn't really a big deal in the conspiracy department. There are more interesting/important things going on behind the scenes than some terrorist leader supposedly being shot. If the government is hiding anything its probably them just finding ways to get back the American citizens approval for the Obama reelection. Or perhaps I don't know what i'm talking about.

What is interesting to me, is that if I were going to take credit for a Osama's death long after the fact (just once we had proof that he was definitely dead), I can't think of a better lead-in than to release the birth certificate a week earlier that has become such a major issue after being initially brought up by someone that would go on to be one of my closest allies (Hillary Clinton).

The report was that Bin Laden had been killed a week ago, which makes the releasing of the birth certificate pretty interestingly timed. They released the birth certificate literally the day after "he was killed," which takes the spot light for a few days, making anyone that would dare question what the Obama administration is doing look like a fool. Now, the most wanted man in many years is assassinated and his body buried at sea, and those asking for proof are ridiculed as being like "Birthers." It is just all really convenient.

The problem people are falling into right now I think is believing too much of the initial reports. We're simply too close to the actual events to make sense of all the details. Right now every reporter that covers this type of thing is hungry for any possible detail they can print. So anyone who will talk to them that can be credited along the lines of "Senior Pentagon official" or whatever is getting quotes. This leads to a lot of bad information out there.

If you pay attention while a major emergency is going on, the initial reports are always wrong. I can even count how many shootings I've seen where the initial reports claim multiple shooters. Almost every time there is a shooting, right away people are saying there are more than one shooter. Almost always it turns out those reports were wrong.

You'll need to wait a few weeks before more concrete details have been released before trying to really parse what's been said and all the data that is available.

TIL about the NGA

They seized computers too

Wow, man, this is awesome. You seem to have incredibly, intelligently analyzed the situation and provided a concise description. Up.

I read that this whole operation took place days before and that they just announced the death on May 1.

i find it funny no one caught this. i swear on the night it was initially announced they said this happened like a week ago. then that random guy popped up on twitter saying it happened 2 days ago. ever since then the media has been reporting this happened 2 days ago. what up with dat?

Well I'm a software developer and a mathematician and so I'm trained to be unforgiving of errors. My computer brutalizes me constantly with its insistence on perfection.

My dad said one of the helicopters he saw on the news was a Kobra/Cobra, which appearantly had been used? (he used to be in the army, so he knows this stuff)

Osama has been dead for years, your gov and media are insulting your intelligence again. Check it, every news station, non stop coverage. Big lie theory in action.

May this country rot in lies.

i don't care how much the choppers cost, if they had to blow them, I understand. Soldiers in the heat of things don't and shouldn't care about the cost of something. The mission is to get it done.

However, the processing of the DNA just sounds so damn suspect to me. Doesn't that take like a day or two?

[deleted]

I just hope it's not the same experts that posted about how Fukushima would be all cleared up in a day or two.

Ya seriously, its like all of a sudden, it was just time to kill this guy. What did he find out and what was he going to do? (Osama that is) It seems like it would have been much better to capture this guy and hold him prisoner and try to get all the information out of him they could rather than just kill him all of a sudden.

You don't think it's possible that Osama did not want to be captured alive? I am sure that I have read reports of exactly that - he was always armed, and his own men were under standing orders that he was not to be taken alive.

Another thing to remember is that this mission had a very limited amount of time that the operators could remain on the ground. They were inside Pakistan, unannounced. The Pakistani Air Force did, in fact, scramble jets looking for the US helicopters. They could not just surround him, and wait him out.

Once you have accepted those two pieces of information, the outcome becomes a lot easier to accept. Consider the following:

The SEAL team assaults the compound, with orders to capture Bin Laden if possible, and kill him otherwise. Once they are on the ground, Bin Laden does not just surrender, and a firefight ensues. During this firefight, they are under constant threat of being discovered by the Pakistani Armed forces. The firefight is drawn out over 40 minutes, and the team is forced to go with option B - terminate Bin Laden, and collect his body / whatever intel they can get their hands on.

In the end, disposing of his body, as quickly as they did, might be a little suspicious, but their killing him is not.

It seems to me that your most compelling argument is they can't fit that many people into a helicopter.

Fuck man, is that all you got?

You think a bunch of wiry little seals can't cram themselves into a helicopter when their fucking lives are on the line?

The reports I've read are now claiming that the DNA tests for ID were done by samples taken from the corpse, so it was sea-buried before ID took place.

So, think about this ... they must have had complete samples of Bin Laden's DNA in the freezer, ready to test. It's the only way they could verify the authenticity of what they took from the body. That means they could, in theory, have used that DNA and falsely claimed they extracted it from a fresh corpse.

Or they could have done the whole thing on the same sound-stage that they used to fake the moon landing.

the problem with all conspiracy theories are that you are using public records to make sense of classified events, they probably id Osama a week ahead and knew where his next hiding location would be

"you mean to tell me that the body was positively ID'd in the 4 hours it was in flight?"

Yes its called A Email they have it in America.

tl;dr.

tl;dr The OP found some flaws in the "official story" of ObL's death.

this is one of the questions that is yet to be resolved

Have you got any ears?

If only sighs were my experience. I'm met with sharp opposition and fury. An practical example would be trying to get my family to buy some gold or silver either physical, mining shares or ETFs. Nope, they won't have any of it. I've begged them to get 1-2% into these things back when the price was $700-900. Now its approaching $1600. Do I get a nod of recognition? Not even in the slightest. Their small box is built with reinforced titanium polymers (and maybe alien nano-technology?). There is zero approval and zero validation as I become increasing right and as we move closer to what people on this subreddit know is coming. So I'm focusing on y'all folks here, who are at least interested (not to say that I know everything at all). Everybody has their own audience. For me my ideas and words in any format provoke extreme anger in average folks so that is not my cause. So I'm not on a holy mission to save everyone. Seriously I'm quite pessimistic and I think that the drugged out baby boomers need to just die off and that situation will take care of itself without me lifting a finger. I believe that Americas crash is guaranteed. I think that we would already be in it now if the free market were allowed to flourish. Then perhaps we would have some difficult several years and the next generation would not even need to worry about about the shit that we have to deal with. Well though just look around you. These people are not capable of stopping what is coming. I might be willing to return to help with the rebuilding but I refuse to be here when things are full on bad. The disparity between what I will be perceiving and what others around me will be perceiving will be too great and I will feel too alienated to be of much use. I can deal with the alienation but I don't see the point. I've had an audience of thirty Chinese before who were very eager to here me speak about anything that I wanted. Compared to here (US) it is an astronomically large difference. I have enough cultural experience and reference points to know how good things can be and I have more faith in other parts of the world than I do the US. I think that probably the renaissance will not begin in the US but in other parts. Also I am of European ancestry who has only been here four generations. We celebrate the brave people who came here long ago to escape the futile and brutal conditions in their lands but now we denounce anybody who leaves here in that same vein to simply shed the great weight. We are not entitled to be relevant, interesting or prepared. Basically I am ready for a revolution but obviously others are not because they still feel like the system is serving them more than it is hindering them. So there needs to be some kind of consensus there and obviously there is currently no such thing. Also I am a master of computer technology so my location on the planet is not of much importance for me to contribute and also I am not the best at navigating the mind field of common perception. There are hundreds of implanted trigger words that set people off and I will leave that to others more skilled in that art. I speak to the aware and anything beyond that is beyond aggravating for me.

Anyways, I type quickly.

[edit] Additionally Americans have religious faith in their Illuminati paper. There is not cure for this delusion except hyper inflation and misery.

He ran an army, and he surrendered like a bitch.

Do you have any compelling evidence that the official story is true?

I just find it odd that there just, coincidently, happened to be leaked [cellphone] footage of him being hanged.

As a general rule, they are equipped with helmet cams.

Well thank you, I appreciate it.