IT'S NOT A CONSPIRACY, IT'S A SUPERHERO MOVIE... where a guy DRESSES UP AS A FUCKING BAT. Seriously people, get a fucking grip.

When you were little, was their ever a movie that shifted the lens in which you view the world?

Yes, sure. However, OP is clearly saying that The Dark Knight is to drum up support for the patriot act...

Tell me how the fuck that makes any sense, and what that has to do with the point you're trying to make?

Well, mind you, I believe the Illuminati has a strong foot-hold in the entertainment industry. So what I've to say, take worth a grain of salt.

Basically, what's being said is that the film depicts a "valid" form of spying on people. The two things to consider is that, no. No it's not valid. People, even gentle old kind black men, can not ever be trusted with power.

The other thing though is how impressionable people can be. That's why I asked, "when you were a KID." Versus being an adult. Kids are impressionable. Immature adults are too. Which is more a statement regarding the sad state of affairs we live in.

Of course, it is just a movie. If it were a real debate, there would have been a dozen other alternatives to capturing the terrorist. (Batman didn't need no super gadgetry to beat Joker in the first movie.

out of all the movies to call propaganda he picks The Dark Knight... there are a dozen other movies I would say are propaganda than the dark knight.

A spoon full of sugar (entertainment) helps the medicine (propaganda) go down.

I'm sure they're happy you didn't detect the medicine.

Dude, You are a fucking moron. If you honestly think people are delusional to the point where the movie the DARK KNIGHT could somehow subtly change their opinion on being monitored by their government. It's the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard.

If someone can not OPEN THEIR FUCKING eyes and realize that they're being surveillanced through their technological devices than they're morons. I say this ALL the time on conspiracy IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE MONITORED. DO NOT BUY ELECTRONICS. IT IS A CHOICE. If you want to cover tracks online LEARN HOW. But don't simply bitch about a FICTIONAL movie and try to turn it into some kind of Illuminati conspiracy to take over the world.

American's accept the Patriot act because they're asleep at the wheel, they accept all the bullshit that they're given. You know what? America deserves the country it gets too.

Because the America that American's deserve, is not the one it has right now. So we'll protest and riot because it can take it. Because America is not our hero. It's our silent guardian, a watchful protector(jk). However, we must become our own Heros, and fight for our own problems. Not just simply bitch on message boards blaming fictional films for our problems.

Well, people do quote Batman on Facebook and twitter, like the words mattered. At least enough to act as if it has moved them emotionally.

Not just simply bitch on message boards blaming fictional films for our problems.

I'm pointing out how the wealthy are using entertainment as propoganda.

Knowledge is power.

To intimate that sharing knowledge isn't doing something is pure ignorance.

Think before you act.

I think you need to relax. This is conspiracy bro, we understand. However, making posts about movies being propaganda isn't new. However, it largely doesn't affect the world. I don't think people are paying to much attention to the media they are consuming. However, why do you care about these drooling couch potatoes anyway?

it largely doesn't affect the world

Media doesn't affect the world...?

Media, as in The Dark Knight. No, it doesn't affect anyone. It is a movie. It cannot change your mind, you have to do that. Just stop arguing man, you're making yourself look stupid.

You are arguing that there are no people whose opinions are affected by media.

There are plenty in this thread who disagree with you.

Media, including movies, has a large effect on how many people view things, I.e. foreign cultures etc.

There are some people who are set in their ways, and there are some who think for themselves, however, there are a great many who do not feel strongly either way and don't think too hard and are easily swayed.

Alright buddy, I want a study on how many people now accept our NSA overlords because of the movie The Dark Knight....

You want a study on how film affects viewpoints?

Okay:

• Effectiveness of Political Advertisements

"When you’re watching movies, your hormones are responding, not just your mind,"

When people are watching an action flick, like Batman, they're testosterone levels increase, as shown in the link above. When people are emotional, they're less apt to be using their rational part of their brain making them more susceptible to poor arguments made (like the conversation between the hero character and his technologist).

And on to using popular media characters to sell/endorse an idea.

You seem to be saying, "if there hasn't been a study proving that this specific piece of media had an effect, then it is irrational to say that it could have an effect, regardless of similar pieces of media having an affect on viewers."

To me that's like arguing that the atoms in a specific apple won't fall, because it's not the exact same apple as the other ones you've dropped.

Media affects how people view things, whether it is 'news' or a morality tale, like Dark Knight.

Okay? It still doesn't change the fact that The Dark Knight is not a propaganda film.

How has that been established as a fact?

i hated the fact the word "Terrorist" was used 2 times in the movie

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"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Ben Franklin/Thomas Jefferson (there's actually a debate on who said it).

Besides, it's not like these new laws have done anything. So far the TSA and stricter airline policies haven't caught terrorists, the passengers on the plane did. The FBI couldn't even track down LulzSec before another hacker group did. I mean come on.

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No you weren't. It needed to be said.

[deleted]

I was messing around with my reply. And you replied 3 times... x-x

If Batman were "unlawful" why would he have the system self destruct after using it for like 2 seconds to find the Joker... It wasn't like this thing that they went, well their goes liberty forever it was literally 2 minutes then it was destroyed. I'm not saying I support it but I think you're really really over analyzing it...

So it's not unlawful to do illegal things if you only do them enough to get what you want and then stop?

I'm not saying that... my main point was that (s)he's really looking into one small part of a movie... The rest of the movie is just about a criminal and steals a lot of points from the comics. My point is why tear apart this one little scene and go "Zomg see this, see it!? They're doing it to desensitize it!" If they were trying to have some sort of propaganda piece do you really think it would be The Dark Knight and that little scene where it's only used for like a minute... and it's actually the opposite it shows Batman didn't want to have to use it, and that Mr. Fox also opposed it... THIS is why people call us tin foil hatters... Looking to fucking movies for tiny scenes like this... how about focus on the real conspiracies that are proven to exist... how we faked our way into the Vietnam War among other wars, Operation Northwoods, the legislation around FEMA camps... All REAL stuff that you don't have to get a magnifying glass out and interpret your own way... JUST THE COLD HARD FACTS that this shit is going on. I HATE conspiracies like this because they get grouped up with legit laws getting pushed through that hurt the American people and their liberty.

But I think the significance here is that little things like this make the big real serious terrible things go unnoticed or accepted by the people.

So it's not as silly as it sounds. It's all part of boiling the frog.

By the way, frogs won't let you boil them gradually. they do leap out in real life.

Yep. But the story still has a valid usage.

When you say "boiling the frog" people know what you mean.

This is kinda stupid because everything that Batman does it technically illegal.

Got stop the Joker? Lemme destroy a shit load of pillars in the lower levels of the city. Also let me get in the way of SWAT team operations, and even harm SWAT team members to do what I want.

Gotta save some Batman wanna be vigilantes? Let me tear up a carpark.

Gotta save my girlfriend? Let me speed, fuck up a shit load of police cars, go stealth mode, mess up some more police cars and people's property -- basically do what I want with no real regard for anyone else.

He breaks into places without permission and basically tortures people to get what he wants...yet this bothers you?

What can I say, I'm pretty susceptible to the protagonist narrative.

Sorry, don't try to explain to anyone who agrees with the OP. Apparently they can't establish a difference between an action movie and real life. They also think people are so stupid that they can't understand simple plot points in a film. Also, apparently because it happens in a movie, it is now propaganda. I guess then every book or film that has ever touched on the subject of violating individual human rights is propaganda. I wonder what they think of Hostel?

in Hostel, the one who violated human rights wasn't framed as a hero if I recall correctly.

how about hobo with a shotgun?

Actually batman has been using a computer at least since the 60s. So unless the west show, Burton films & tas are all prophetic propaganda this is just another movie. Sorry.

Plus in context batman is a vigilante working against the corrupt system. Gordon being the only good person in the Gotham police. Batman doesnt live by the same norms & rules as a govt.

Sorry this has nothing to do with the patriot act.

It's not about 'using a computer', it's about the justification for spying.

Lucius plays the role of the opposition, but ultimately gives in based on the strong moral grounds of 'just this once' and 'it really is for the best' and 'we'll destroy it when we're done so no one else can abuse it':

Batman: Beautiful, isn't it?

Lucius Fox: Beautiful. Unethical. DANGEROUS. You've turned every cellphone in Gotham into a microphone.

Batman: And a high-frequency generator-receiver.

Lucius Fox: You took my sonar concept and applied it to every phone in the city. With half the city feeding you sonar, you can image all of Gotham. This is wrong.

Batman: I've gotta find this man, Lucius.

Lucius Fox: At what cost?

Batman: The database is null-key encrypted. It can only be accessed by one person.

Lucius Fox: This is too much power for one person.

Batman: That's why I gave it to you. Only you can use it.

Lucius Fox: Spying on 30 million people isn't part of my job description.

Now just swap out Batman for any government leader and Lucius for any data analyst/technology expert with moral qualms, 'that man' for terrorist and it reads exactly like a justification for the patriot act, which it is.

Batman has used monitoring systems long before The Dark Knight came out. The thing is Batman isn't a gov't leader by any means. He's actually fighting against a corrupt gov't.

EDIT: Might as well say V from V for Vendetta is propaganda for a police state.

The thing is Batman isn't a gov't leader by any means.

That is irrelevant.

It is justifying the principle that it is moral or ethical or necessary for a good guy to spy on an entire population without their knowledge or consent.

Yeah but Batman has been doing that long before the patriot act. I'm just saying it isn't propaganda for such things.

You think the government hasn't been spying on its citizens since before the patriot act?

And that the wealthy who fund these entertainment distractions don't want the non wealthy people thinking they need to give someone power over them for their protection?

Well when someone comes dressed like a Bat, I'll take this argument more seriously.

The Batman mythos are far from propaganda saying the gov't can save us. You'd have a better argument with The Ultimates or Civil War.

Stop wasting your time with this idiot. He's probably a government shill anyway.

I agree OP, there is all kinds of subtle police state propaganda in films. Sometimes it is just coincidence because those creating it have been thoroughly conditioned to accept such behaviors as acceptable. If this was just a coincidence and cliche plot device, they shouldn't have even bothered to have some kind of moral dilemna and ensuing dialogue.

I want to make a ffffffuuuuu comic about what it is like watching a movie a conspiracy theorist.

Frame after frame of eyerolls and "Wow, ANOTHER 'thinning the herd' comment. Oh, and another all seeing eye. Fffffuuuuuuu"

Then you'd hate Josie and the Pussycats

http://vigilantcitizen.com/moviesandtv/josie-and-the-pussycats-blueprint-of-the-mind-control-music-industry/

You might not enjoy this subreddit if you so thoughtlessly dismiss blatant propaganda.

Are plots and scripts for a multi million dollar investment by those who have that kind of money going to support anything other than their interests?

I don't dismiss it.

Batman is a man who can do bad things to have a what he sees as a positive outcome. He breaks laws to do "good" things because nobody else will. It's as old as the stealing bread for your family story.

Except 'the law' I.e. Gordon, tacitly supports the illegal behavior of a violent vigilante billionaire in this case.

The law never supported robin hood or Aladdin, they had to go straight and conform by the end of their stories.

Tacit acceptance of a long term precense of outside the law justice is promoted by Batman movies.

Think Blackwater

True; but given the title and theme of the movie, I don't think it's propaganda. The mutually inclusive relationship between The Joker and Batman, and Batman actually being a rich man operating with impunity outside the law, The Joker's creative genius in spite of all batman's efforts to quash it. The film is full of food for thought regarding such things. The gist of The Dark Knight is that the difference between dystopia and utopia is not only what is done, but the spirit in which it is done.

Christopher Nolan, one of the greatest writers/directors of our time has better ideas to implement in your head than the one that you have just explained. This man is a pure genius, and I highly doubt he has given us (you and I) the satisfaction to explain/understand one of the greatest American films in the last 10 years that easily.

It's Batman. Just Batman. A 126% fictional super hero movie... Seriously man, either you're too high or completely paranoid. I hope you're just high.

has better ideas to implement in your head than the one that you have just explained.

Apparently not, because the script he okay'd for that scene is exactly a justification for spying on people without their knowledge or consent.

Yeah man fuck batman for spying on me! that asshole.

I'd rather point out the people who wrote the script used the Batman world to argue that spying on an entire population without their knowledge or consent is justified under certain circumstances, such as terrorism.

This. This so much. Fuck /r/conspiracy. You guys helped me see through some of the bullshit the Government pushes onto us, but this is too far.

Don't fuck with Batman.

This is the first thought I had walking out of the theater. It is too blatant not to ignore.

I noticed that too. This movie was a giant fucking commercial for the Neocons and spying on people in the name of 'security'. Assholes. Fuck watching another piece of shit Batman flick at $15 per ticket. Assholes.

Dude it was merely a plot device. Just because they have something in the movie that involves spying on citizens doesn't mean they're trying to subliminally tell us that the patriot act is a good thing. I doubt Christopher Nolan is out to brain wash us.

Also Batman is a vigilante who flew across to pacific to bring down some Japanese corporatist crime lord. Sounds like someone the government may frown on and someone r/conspiracy can get behind. Get a hold of yourself.

When our government does it, it's referred to as extraordinary rendition:

The United States' Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) runs a global abduction and internment operation of suspected terrorists, known as “extraordinary rendition”, which since 2001 has captured an estimated 3,000 people and transported them around the world.

Was the guy in the movie a suspected terrorist? The guy was a money hungry crime lord and Batman stopped him. Yes i do believe in an American Propaganda machine influencing the populace but you have to be reasonable. I can drum up any crazy conspiracy out of any movie and call it "brainwashing of the populace" and post it as a self post. Stop grabbing at straws man. There are other very real and very scary conspiracies out there. Stop wasting our time.

Was the guy in the movie a suspected terrorist? The guy was a money hungry crime lord.

You might need to watch the film, the Joker was labeled a terrorist and he burned the money that he obtained.

His sole purpose was to create enough instability through fear to expose the people of Gotham as primal beings with a veneer of civility.

I am talking about the Asian man that Batman flew across the Pacific to nab not the joker.

No.

Though the only issue that brings up is who is considered eligible for illegal rendition, not whether illegal rendition is ethical or not.

The movie justifies extraordinary rendition of a non-violent criminal.

Did you see the dark knight?

Yes, recently.

Then you know that Lucius destroyed the program...and that Batman understood that he went to far(Joker said he'd have to cross a line) which is why he made it null encrypted to deactive when he typed his name into the console.

/Batmanfan

The line the Joker wanted Batman to cross was murder, that's why he was so happy when he thought Batman snapped and threw him out of the building, but ultimately Batman saved him so he didn't break the rule.

I'm not saying that in the movie they didn't destroy the ability to spy like that.

I'm saying in reality when governments gain powers and abilities, like spying on all of their citizens, they tend to abuse it.

So while in Batman, where spying on citizens without their knowledge or consent, even though it is said it is unethical, is justified, with caveats, in reality incorruptible people do not exist.

I think you may be on to something

The problem here is that the OP, notfeelingsowell, isn't interested in conversation. He has decided that the Dark Knight is a propaganda film, and he explains why he believes that. No matter how many people explain that the idea is silly, he's not going to change his mind. This could have been a great dialogue about the ideas he brought up and their influence on/relevance to the movie, the country, etc.

Unfortunately, it's either THE DARK KNIGHT IS A PROPAGANDA FILM or everything this dude believes is wrong, because one little thing has him completely convinced of something's absolute truth without any facts or proof to back it up. This is the only problem with r/conspiracy and conspiracy theorists in general - some get an idea and run with it without caring about the truth or what's actually happening and present the ideas as facts and draw crazy conclusions about them.

Do you see how having the protagonist of the film perform extraordinary rendition and go through the motions of an argument with Lucius about the ethics of spying on an entire city, then doing it anyways might be seen as supporting both practices?

Sure, I see how it might be. But do you see that in the context of the film you're claiming to be a propaganda piece, Batman exists in a role that is incongruous with that of the U.S. government as far as the Patriot Act goes?

Here is an article where someone else had a similar interpretation to yours. Here's a response that encapsulates the silliness of that article. Lots of people have talked about this, at length, and it's just fucking silly.

That article is protected by a pay wall, but from the quotes I've seen, it sounds like he's saying batman is pro-bush.

I'm saying batman is pro-'whatever it takes to get results', including going outside the law.

Which is a position the government has taken in regards to extraordinary rendition and spying on civilians.

In those cases, arms of the government, like the CIA, act as those agents who do the legally shady things that batman does, that the official government pretends not to be fully okay with, but gives the same justification: it is necessary for just a little bit.

Download the movie 'History of DC Comics'.

Half the movie they spend bragging how influencial comic books were to shaping society ever since the depression era.

Not to mention that Time Warner owns The Dark Knight film rights. Time Warner being one of the big 5.

Or just a technologically retarded scriptwriter scraping the barrel for ideas of how to wrap an overly long and indulgent film up

No. Go to film school and you will realize that this is not the case.

This is a common plot device/cop out know as Deus Ex Machina (warning, tvtropes link). It was a good movie, but meatfeast is exactly right.

It's just a shame that the technology shown in the Dark Knight, while not necessarily capable with the phones we have in our hands today - IS a possibility and a completely accepted and PLANNED form of espionage. Quite different from a cop-out plot device.

Could you please provide some links? I'm not calling you out, I'm genuinely curious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QrnwoO1-8A&feature=related

http://www.prisonplanet.com/nsa-admits-it-tracks-americans-via-cell-phones.html

This is not "Proof" of what I'm saying, but please just listen.

This is the Xbox Kinect. This is hacked by a civilian who happens to know a little bit about software programming. Now imagine what the DoD, NSA, Pentagon, CIA, and other international intelligence agencies have. The pentagon and the CIA are the most complex, sophisticated intelligence gathering communities the world has ever known. They are accountable only to those who fund their operations (not us). The internet was pioneered by the military - do you really think there is no upside potential for our rulers? The shit we get in our consumer products is OLD news. It's been proven that the technology and intellectual property owned by military contractors and the U.S. patent office under abuse of the National Security act is DECADES more advanced than what we have now. The Kinect is two cameras with some processing power dedicated to some sophisticated software that interprets the image. How much longer before this type of stuff is available in some form on our telephones? Considering the PSP Vita is probably capable of doing this, i would say not so far off.

It was real novel when phones started getting little spy cameras on them (remember the CIA spy cameras from the 60's?). It's novel still to have a camera on the front of the phone and on the back of the phone - and what do we see now? 3D cameras on your phone! So you can take 3D video, right?

It's all fun and games but please understand these same patents, these same concepts and these same technologies are in the hands of our owners. It is at their disposal, to be released on their timeline. As is often the case with these psy-op hollywood movies, the technology is always portrayed as something that would be wayyyy in the future, when really it's not too far away.

How so?

The phone sonar part was beyond retarded and completely impossible. It was like watching an episode of CSI.

I mean yes we all enjoyed the dark knight but in retrospect lets not pretend that the plot was just terrible by that point and that Christian Bale's performance wasn't fucking laughable as he tried to force his voice so low it showed up on seismographs.

Opposed to the realistic premise of a billionaire being trained by ninjas to dress like a giant bat. Gotcha.

unfeasible but not impossible

Like the part where eventually he'll meet an alien that disguises itself by putting on glasses & acting goofy? Ahh okay.

It was a textbook plot device

The film clearly supports justifying spying on people without them knowing and also lying to people 'for their own good', when Batman takes on the murders two face did and Commissioner Gordon agrees to go with the lie.

To be perfectly clear, the film advocates allowing a wealthy influential symbol of hope get away with murder just so that the people won't lose hope.

you want an example of subtle propaganda given to us as entertainment? look at the academy award winner movie The King's speech. I , myself, very much enjoyed the film. it was one of my favorite movies of last year because I did use to studder. but the messege that people need not to ask their king why are you going to war? or is there another way? btw, which the kings asked but Churchill said Hitler has left us with no choice. see, that's some bullshit melodrama thinking that there is no other choice but to go to war and that's it. and honestly, i don't know if they intended to make a point or they were just making a movie to about that time and they didn't alter anything and it's just what happened. but it's fucking wrong to make a movie like this. it brainwashes people without them even knowing. like it's ok if the government tells you we're going to war b/c the opponent is so evil and left us with no choice (Iran).

you want an example of subtle propaganda given to us as entertainment? look at the academy award winner movie The King's speech. I , myself, very much enjoyed the film. it was one of my favorite movies of last year because I did use to studder. but the messege that people need not to ask their king why are you going to war? or is there another way? btw, which the kings asked but Churchill said Hitler has left us with no choice. see, that's some bullshit melodrama thinking that there is no other choice but to go to war and that's it. and honestly, i don't know if they intended to make a point or they were just making a movie to about that time and they didn't alter anything and it's just what happened. but it's fucking wrong to make a movie like this. it brainwashes people without them even knowing. like it's ok if the government tells you we're going to war b/c the opponent is so evil and left us with no choice (Iran).

That is a great point.

I kind of want to get a thread going about the 'ethics' of movies.

What they justify ethically by making certain people protagonists and having situations turn out the way they decide, and the conversations/arguments they decide to show, and who they script to win the arguments, and who turns out to be 'right' in their made up world.

For instance, SLC Punk is popular among the punk scene, but it's basic message is that ultimately you should buy into the system and the best way to change the system is from within.

Its essentially a conversion/prodigal son morality tale.

So it's not unlawful to do illegal things if you only do them enough to get what you want and then stop?

It's not about 'using a computer', it's about the justification for spying.

Lucius plays the role of the opposition, but ultimately gives in based on the strong moral grounds of 'just this once' and 'it really is for the best' and 'we'll destroy it when we're done so no one else can abuse it':

Batman: Beautiful, isn't it?

Lucius Fox: Beautiful. Unethical. DANGEROUS. You've turned every cellphone in Gotham into a microphone.

Batman: And a high-frequency generator-receiver.

Lucius Fox: You took my sonar concept and applied it to every phone in the city. With half the city feeding you sonar, you can image all of Gotham. This is wrong.

Batman: I've gotta find this man, Lucius.

Lucius Fox: At what cost?

Batman: The database is null-key encrypted. It can only be accessed by one person.

Lucius Fox: This is too much power for one person.

Batman: That's why I gave it to you. Only you can use it.

Lucius Fox: Spying on 30 million people isn't part of my job description.

Now just swap out Batman for any government leader and Lucius for any data analyst/technology expert with moral qualms, 'that man' for terrorist and it reads exactly like a justification for the patriot act, which it is.

When our government does it, it's referred to as extraordinary rendition:

The United States' Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) runs a global abduction and internment operation of suspected terrorists, known as “extraordinary rendition”, which since 2001 has captured an estimated 3,000 people and transported them around the world.