It's simple to understand: Lucifer, that old "Light Bearer" is seen as a champion of individualism; an ideal promoting personal freedom and liberty. It is no secret that religious dogmatists criticize rational thought and free thinking just as much as those same dogmatic groups decry scientific inquiry; areas championed by so-called Luciferians. In the biblical stories, Lucifer "fell" by exercising his own will instead of blindly following the fascist demiurge God/Yahweh/Alla, etc.
With all that being said, I think it is still disappointing that /r/Atheism is becoming more "pro" Lucifer instead of "pro adversarial" without reference to any specific mythological creature.
it would be different if they weren't just bashing Christianity. half the time they aren't even bashing Christianity from an atheist perspective. half the time its jokes on Christianity from other religions ( my god has a hammer, your god got nails in his hand etc..) and the other half is misconstrued bible verses.
i also do not think you have a grasp on the whole god v satan thing. the creator is a being capable of creating a reality from words. saying he is fascist or a dictator or anything would be like saying a kid playing with his lego's could be fascist for throwing a lego man across the room. most peoples problem is they don't understand their place in the universe and religious folks have that issue just as much as atheists.
I have a firm grasp on the "god v satan" thing. I wasn't talking about the mythology of Satan. I was talking about Lucifer; a different adversary from Satan. Some people equate them with one another, and others do not. Satan was originally a prosecutor for "god."
The Abrahamic faiths spew dogma intended to subjugate their faithful to a variation of the jealous, senile, totalitarian, invisible man in the sky.
Whether it was Satan, Lucifer, Belial, or other "demons," there is a documented history of people identifying with these "demons" for personal liberation from the tyranny of religions that convert adherents with deadly force, or use deadly force to ostracize those that leave the "flock;" a name which conveys that they are sheep to be preyed upon.
i agree with you that churches use the fiery brimstone method of teaching to keep the tithes coming in from the fearful. however, the idea that men are sheep to be preyed upon misconstrues the relationship between sheep and shepherd.
man was supposed to be a blissful being capable of freewill that was to be watched over by its creator. the only time man becomes easy prey is the same time sheep become easy prey; when they stray from their creator/shepherd.
mans original sin of defiance towards god puts us outside of his watchful eye, and only through finding the truth in religion will one be able to achieve reaching his safety again.
i guess you could say you are better off without god, but if he is real i wouldn't want to try and tell him that myself.
not fear so much as reverence for the thing that decided i would exist. also, if you look at it from the perspective of the stubborn atheist trying to tell his creator he doesn't exist, it doesn't seem like something i would try to do.
Honestly, they're just latching onto the popularity of the Good Guy Greg meme with an appropriate reference for atheism, which would be that we are commonly referred to as Satanists. The Good Guy Lucifer trend also stems from looking critically at the events in the Bible and the general crimes Lucifer is accused of:
Causing Adam and Eve to think critically
Actually doing the punishing of the evil people
Embracing free though rather than strict ideology etc, etc
Atheism is nothing more than a lack of belief in deities. However, since we usually get copious amounts of flak from judeo-christians, and atheism has recently made it as a automatically subscribed reddit, there are new items popping up to deal with a massive influx of new viewers to that subreddit.
Seriously, this isn't a conspiracy to worship Lucifer or anything, it's a response to a shifting in demographic trends of visitors to the subreddit thanks to r/atheism now being a default subscription.
Edit - Fixed the bullet points....formatting isn't my strong suit yet!
RIDICULOUS. Stop trying to explain conspiracies! You're ruining this! With you logic, and wits, and bullet points.
On a serious note. Why is everybody afraid of a group of people that doesn't believe in anything, starting to believe into something they can't believe in to begin with.
It's not that I don't enjoy conspiracy theories from time to time, but there has to be a point at which you have breached factual analysis and gone into crazyland.
they don't believe in anything though or is that not what atheism is? I am all for atheism bashing every religion with atheistic rebuttals, but it is different when all you are doing is misconstruing bible verses to make the bible or its teachings out to be something it isn't. i don't even like it when Christians construe the bible to make it something it isn't.
i like how the story of the fall of man has been construed into a positive for humanity. i would have taken bliss and lack of suffering over knowing that i could bring pain to someone if i felt inclined to do so. when you realize that we are creations and not peers you might have a better understanding of your place in reality.
How has it been construed as a positive for humanity? People are taking a common judeo-christian trope and turning it into a harmless meme for their own enjoyment. I find it more offensive that atheists are commonly referred to as devil-worshippers and 'evil' despite the denotations of the terms being quite incompatible. Besides, the fall of man is and only ever was a story, a quite badly told story in a half-cogent book written by fallible men about a non-existent deity.
how can you not believe in a creator of reality in this day and age? scientists already believe in multiple universes, not to mention the myriad theories regarding extraterrestrial intelligence and the strangeness surrounding quantum particles.
to believe that an explosion randomly created a particle capable of being in existence in two different parts of space is pretty foolish.
to think that in the infinite universe (or the infinite number of finite universes depending on your school of thought) that there isn't a being capable of creating a reality purely for its own amusement is even more foolish.
Now i agree that the bible as seen today is probably full of stuff that shouldn't have been in there and is mising a lot of things that should have been included. I'll even be the first to say its used to cull the masses.
it was put together by a group of men that probably never even met Jesus or was even around during the period that he was alive. it was probably even tampered with when it was rewritten over and over again either on accident or on purpose.
That doesn't mean that someone can't find a little bit of truth in its pages and try to interpret its teachings in a way that can benefit themselves and others. it certainly doesn't mean that it and its followers should be persecuted by the masses simply because some of them acted violently or negatively due to how they interpreted what was written in it.
to believe that an explosion randomly created a particle capable of being in existence in two different parts of space is pretty foolish.
You fail to establish that you even understand the theories you disparage, while calling me foolish because I don't share your rather badly explained viewpoints. If you truly believe these things to be so obvious, explain them and make me believe, otherwise don't expect foolish name-calling to suffice.
That doesn't mean that someone can't find a little bit of truth in its pages and try to interpret its teachings in a way that can benefit themselves and others. it certainly doesn't mean that it and its followers should be persecuted by the masses simply because some of them acted violently or negatively due to how they interpreted what was written in it.
The Bible is a rather pointless book. Most, if not all of its good sentiments can be found in other great religions or schools of thought without the negatives found scattered throughout its pages. Maybe you don't know, but the followers of the Bible ARE the masses, and they're frequently the ones doing the persecuting. Last I checked, the Constitution explicitly forbids religious tests for high office, but try and get an atheist elected in this country and you'll see just which way the persecution flows. :D
Whether or not you find truth in such a book isn't the point. That it can be, and indeed for most of its history has been, used for amazing goods and horrific evils should be a reason to distrust it innately. It allows people to draw ANY conclusion they want from it, with its contradictory nature. Hitler likened himself to Jesus, drawing the 'brood of vipers and asps from the temple' as he referred to the Jews. MLK Jr was a pastor who used his understanding of the Bible to connect with his people and lead them on a path to equity for all people, regardless of skin color.
That's the point. The Bible can be used to justify ANY viewpoint you have, and doesn't pass muster as far as evidence is concerned. I would prefer a more stable foundation than quicksand.
ill give you the science first and if you would like we can move onto the spirituality of it later.
the simplest thing that affirms my belief in a creator being is the theories circulating about our universe. it is speculated that either the universe is infinite or it is finite, but part of an infinite number of universes. given that the probability alone of us being created by a being capable of creating a reality of its own for its own amusement is about the same as an explosion creating us randomly. as for quantum physics, the idea that matter isn't solid and ( when considered at the quantum level) only there when it is being observed is pretty strange and makes me doubt how such a thing could be created simply from something exploding millions of years ago.
i find that the bibles similarity to other religious texts affirms my faith, but my beliefs are only my own so for you to say the bible is pointless is your opinion and you are entitled to it. Christianity may be one of the predominant religions but it is really the only religion that gets any flak for its beliefs publicly other than scientology.with groups like the Amish, Mormons and Catholics i can see why they catch some of that flak. My beliefs on why our government is mostly run by fundamentalist Christians is because the "powers that be" like how fundamentalists Christians think which is not often so it makes their job easier to crush the little guy.
Also, just because the bible has been used for good and evil is only a testament to mans acquired capability of good and evil.
i agree with you that the bible as it is seen today has been misconstrued to make any point, but that again is man using a tool for a purpose. I would love to talk to you about what i think regarding religion in general if you feel inclined to do so.
the simplest thing that affirms my belief in a creator being is the theories circulating about our universe. it is speculated that either the universe is infinite or it is finite, but part of an infinite number of universes
You have presented no science, and don't seem to want to pin your idea down with any particular theory or hypothesis. As far as there being an infinite number of universes, that is as yet a hypothesis, and must be accorded respect as such. You seem to think that the Megaverse Hypothesis deserves more respect than the Big Bang Theory despite the actual mounds of evidence supporting BBT that aren't there yet (If they even exist) for MH.
I wouldn't tread into the realm of probability, especially in relation to quantifying variables and unknowns as you attempted to. The probability of the BBT being accurate is very high, given the absolute mounds of evidence directly pointing to and relating to it. Whereas the proof for a creator is....well....lacking at best. There aren't even any philosophical arguments for a creator that can stand up to the bullshit test. This, like anything, can bear discussion, :D.
As for the phenomenon of matter not being solid, well that's just natural. For all intents and purposes to a human, matter is solid, and the spaces between the atomic constituents of our universe shouldn't be naturally logical to our species. The same science that shows us these atomic constituents and allows us to understand them ALSO shows massive evidentiary support for the BBT, yet you pick and choose which you would like to believe. This is not a scientific mindset.
i find that the bibles similarity to other religious texts affirms my faith, but my beliefs are only my own so for you to say the bible is pointless is your opinion and you are entitled to it.
If you would care to explain in what way these similarities affirm your faith, then we could talk about that. My opinion that the Bible is pointless derives from the contradictions found within it, the paucity of its moral message and indeed its liberal theft of ideas and ideals from other, more noble texts.
Christianity may be one of the predominant religions but it is really the only religion that gets any flak for its beliefs publicly other than scientology.
With all due politeness, that is bullshit. Attend a Republican convention and you'll probably hear more Islam bashing than you can handle, and how secular relativists are somehow destroying the moral fabric of this nation. I really think the influence of fundamentalist religion on the government can also be traced to Dominionism and other related sects, but it's hard to really say definitively.
At the very least, as long as we don't end up swilling whiskey and yelling at each other in four letter words and thrown barstools I'll be looking forward to your replies. :D
25 comments
2 Lord_NShYH 2011-10-26
It's simple to understand: Lucifer, that old "Light Bearer" is seen as a champion of individualism; an ideal promoting personal freedom and liberty. It is no secret that religious dogmatists criticize rational thought and free thinking just as much as those same dogmatic groups decry scientific inquiry; areas championed by so-called Luciferians. In the biblical stories, Lucifer "fell" by exercising his own will instead of blindly following the fascist demiurge God/Yahweh/Alla, etc.
With all that being said, I think it is still disappointing that /r/Atheism is becoming more "pro" Lucifer instead of "pro adversarial" without reference to any specific mythological creature.
1 TheHadMatter 2011-10-26
it would be different if they weren't just bashing Christianity. half the time they aren't even bashing Christianity from an atheist perspective. half the time its jokes on Christianity from other religions ( my god has a hammer, your god got nails in his hand etc..) and the other half is misconstrued bible verses.
i also do not think you have a grasp on the whole god v satan thing. the creator is a being capable of creating a reality from words. saying he is fascist or a dictator or anything would be like saying a kid playing with his lego's could be fascist for throwing a lego man across the room. most peoples problem is they don't understand their place in the universe and religious folks have that issue just as much as atheists.
1 Lord_NShYH 2011-10-26
I have a firm grasp on the "god v satan" thing. I wasn't talking about the mythology of Satan. I was talking about Lucifer; a different adversary from Satan. Some people equate them with one another, and others do not. Satan was originally a prosecutor for "god."
The Abrahamic faiths spew dogma intended to subjugate their faithful to a variation of the jealous, senile, totalitarian, invisible man in the sky.
Whether it was Satan, Lucifer, Belial, or other "demons," there is a documented history of people identifying with these "demons" for personal liberation from the tyranny of religions that convert adherents with deadly force, or use deadly force to ostracize those that leave the "flock;" a name which conveys that they are sheep to be preyed upon.
0 TheHadMatter 2011-10-26
i agree with you that churches use the fiery brimstone method of teaching to keep the tithes coming in from the fearful. however, the idea that men are sheep to be preyed upon misconstrues the relationship between sheep and shepherd.
man was supposed to be a blissful being capable of freewill that was to be watched over by its creator. the only time man becomes easy prey is the same time sheep become easy prey; when they stray from their creator/shepherd.
mans original sin of defiance towards god puts us outside of his watchful eye, and only through finding the truth in religion will one be able to achieve reaching his safety again.
i guess you could say you are better off without god, but if he is real i wouldn't want to try and tell him that myself.
0 Lord_NShYH 2011-10-26
So, out of fear, you succumb to Pascal's Wager? I do not choose to follow that way.
1 TheHadMatter 2011-10-26
not fear so much as reverence for the thing that decided i would exist. also, if you look at it from the perspective of the stubborn atheist trying to tell his creator he doesn't exist, it doesn't seem like something i would try to do.
1 [deleted] 2011-10-26
I'm not doubting you, but can you give a specific example?
2 TheHadMatter 2011-10-26
there are a lot of "good guy lucifer" posts. like a ton go see.
2 [deleted] 2011-10-26
[deleted]
1 Nobody_special 2011-10-26
Very interesting.
1 TheHadMatter 2011-10-26
yeah it does look pretty peculiar.
1 [deleted] 2011-10-26
[deleted]
1 [deleted] 2011-10-26
Im atheist, but dont go in there much at all. Thanks for links!
1 precious-hamburgers 2011-10-26
This post reminds me of the Kurdish Yazidi mythos of Melek Taus
1 TheHadMatter 2011-10-26
i hope so. it seems like it will only be a matter of time before i am cracking skulls with righteous indignation.
1 Kryoxxis 2011-10-26
Honestly, they're just latching onto the popularity of the Good Guy Greg meme with an appropriate reference for atheism, which would be that we are commonly referred to as Satanists. The Good Guy Lucifer trend also stems from looking critically at the events in the Bible and the general crimes Lucifer is accused of:
Atheism is nothing more than a lack of belief in deities. However, since we usually get copious amounts of flak from judeo-christians, and atheism has recently made it as a automatically subscribed reddit, there are new items popping up to deal with a massive influx of new viewers to that subreddit.
Seriously, this isn't a conspiracy to worship Lucifer or anything, it's a response to a shifting in demographic trends of visitors to the subreddit thanks to r/atheism now being a default subscription.
Edit - Fixed the bullet points....formatting isn't my strong suit yet!
1 wearetheromanz 2011-10-26
RIDICULOUS. Stop trying to explain conspiracies! You're ruining this! With you logic, and wits, and bullet points.
On a serious note. Why is everybody afraid of a group of people that doesn't believe in anything, starting to believe into something they can't believe in to begin with.
1 Kryoxxis 2011-10-26
It's not that I don't enjoy conspiracy theories from time to time, but there has to be a point at which you have breached factual analysis and gone into crazyland.
2 wearetheromanz 2011-10-26
Right? Up top!
1 TheHadMatter 2011-10-26
they don't believe in anything though or is that not what atheism is? I am all for atheism bashing every religion with atheistic rebuttals, but it is different when all you are doing is misconstruing bible verses to make the bible or its teachings out to be something it isn't. i don't even like it when Christians construe the bible to make it something it isn't.
1 TheHadMatter 2011-10-26
i like how the story of the fall of man has been construed into a positive for humanity. i would have taken bliss and lack of suffering over knowing that i could bring pain to someone if i felt inclined to do so. when you realize that we are creations and not peers you might have a better understanding of your place in reality.
1 Kryoxxis 2011-10-26
How has it been construed as a positive for humanity? People are taking a common judeo-christian trope and turning it into a harmless meme for their own enjoyment. I find it more offensive that atheists are commonly referred to as devil-worshippers and 'evil' despite the denotations of the terms being quite incompatible. Besides, the fall of man is and only ever was a story, a quite badly told story in a half-cogent book written by fallible men about a non-existent deity.
1 TheHadMatter 2011-10-26
how can you not believe in a creator of reality in this day and age? scientists already believe in multiple universes, not to mention the myriad theories regarding extraterrestrial intelligence and the strangeness surrounding quantum particles.
to believe that an explosion randomly created a particle capable of being in existence in two different parts of space is pretty foolish.
to think that in the infinite universe (or the infinite number of finite universes depending on your school of thought) that there isn't a being capable of creating a reality purely for its own amusement is even more foolish.
Now i agree that the bible as seen today is probably full of stuff that shouldn't have been in there and is mising a lot of things that should have been included. I'll even be the first to say its used to cull the masses.
it was put together by a group of men that probably never even met Jesus or was even around during the period that he was alive. it was probably even tampered with when it was rewritten over and over again either on accident or on purpose.
That doesn't mean that someone can't find a little bit of truth in its pages and try to interpret its teachings in a way that can benefit themselves and others. it certainly doesn't mean that it and its followers should be persecuted by the masses simply because some of them acted violently or negatively due to how they interpreted what was written in it.
1 Kryoxxis 2011-10-26
You fail to establish that you even understand the theories you disparage, while calling me foolish because I don't share your rather badly explained viewpoints. If you truly believe these things to be so obvious, explain them and make me believe, otherwise don't expect foolish name-calling to suffice.
The Bible is a rather pointless book. Most, if not all of its good sentiments can be found in other great religions or schools of thought without the negatives found scattered throughout its pages. Maybe you don't know, but the followers of the Bible ARE the masses, and they're frequently the ones doing the persecuting. Last I checked, the Constitution explicitly forbids religious tests for high office, but try and get an atheist elected in this country and you'll see just which way the persecution flows. :D
Whether or not you find truth in such a book isn't the point. That it can be, and indeed for most of its history has been, used for amazing goods and horrific evils should be a reason to distrust it innately. It allows people to draw ANY conclusion they want from it, with its contradictory nature. Hitler likened himself to Jesus, drawing the 'brood of vipers and asps from the temple' as he referred to the Jews. MLK Jr was a pastor who used his understanding of the Bible to connect with his people and lead them on a path to equity for all people, regardless of skin color.
That's the point. The Bible can be used to justify ANY viewpoint you have, and doesn't pass muster as far as evidence is concerned. I would prefer a more stable foundation than quicksand.
2 TheHadMatter 2011-10-26
ill give you the science first and if you would like we can move onto the spirituality of it later.
the simplest thing that affirms my belief in a creator being is the theories circulating about our universe. it is speculated that either the universe is infinite or it is finite, but part of an infinite number of universes. given that the probability alone of us being created by a being capable of creating a reality of its own for its own amusement is about the same as an explosion creating us randomly. as for quantum physics, the idea that matter isn't solid and ( when considered at the quantum level) only there when it is being observed is pretty strange and makes me doubt how such a thing could be created simply from something exploding millions of years ago.
i find that the bibles similarity to other religious texts affirms my faith, but my beliefs are only my own so for you to say the bible is pointless is your opinion and you are entitled to it. Christianity may be one of the predominant religions but it is really the only religion that gets any flak for its beliefs publicly other than scientology.with groups like the Amish, Mormons and Catholics i can see why they catch some of that flak. My beliefs on why our government is mostly run by fundamentalist Christians is because the "powers that be" like how fundamentalists Christians think which is not often so it makes their job easier to crush the little guy.
Also, just because the bible has been used for good and evil is only a testament to mans acquired capability of good and evil.
i agree with you that the bible as it is seen today has been misconstrued to make any point, but that again is man using a tool for a purpose. I would love to talk to you about what i think regarding religion in general if you feel inclined to do so.
1 Kryoxxis 2011-10-26
You have presented no science, and don't seem to want to pin your idea down with any particular theory or hypothesis. As far as there being an infinite number of universes, that is as yet a hypothesis, and must be accorded respect as such. You seem to think that the Megaverse Hypothesis deserves more respect than the Big Bang Theory despite the actual mounds of evidence supporting BBT that aren't there yet (If they even exist) for MH.
I wouldn't tread into the realm of probability, especially in relation to quantifying variables and unknowns as you attempted to. The probability of the BBT being accurate is very high, given the absolute mounds of evidence directly pointing to and relating to it. Whereas the proof for a creator is....well....lacking at best. There aren't even any philosophical arguments for a creator that can stand up to the bullshit test. This, like anything, can bear discussion, :D.
As for the phenomenon of matter not being solid, well that's just natural. For all intents and purposes to a human, matter is solid, and the spaces between the atomic constituents of our universe shouldn't be naturally logical to our species. The same science that shows us these atomic constituents and allows us to understand them ALSO shows massive evidentiary support for the BBT, yet you pick and choose which you would like to believe. This is not a scientific mindset.
If you would care to explain in what way these similarities affirm your faith, then we could talk about that. My opinion that the Bible is pointless derives from the contradictions found within it, the paucity of its moral message and indeed its liberal theft of ideas and ideals from other, more noble texts.
With all due politeness, that is bullshit. Attend a Republican convention and you'll probably hear more Islam bashing than you can handle, and how secular relativists are somehow destroying the moral fabric of this nation. I really think the influence of fundamentalist religion on the government can also be traced to Dominionism and other related sects, but it's hard to really say definitively.
At the very least, as long as we don't end up swilling whiskey and yelling at each other in four letter words and thrown barstools I'll be looking forward to your replies. :D
1 tttt0tttt 2011-10-26
Good point.