I was shown some icke material about 3 years ago, and obviously I was at a different stage in the wake up process, but I am like you...I try not to discount any idea, otherwise I will not continue to learn. One of my personal barometers for whether someone is the real deal or not is if they have information that independently corroborates or supports other claims...this isn't so important when you have a primary source at your disposal, but it really helps when you zretrying to build credibility for a particular individual. Icke , as you said has been really accurate on a large number of things, so it makes sense to at least pay attention to what he says.

I've seen a bunch of Icke stuff, but the problem is that he never offers any indisputable hard evidence to what he says (especially the Reptilian claim). He's a great speaker, but once you strip away the words and say 'okay, show me the money, where's your proof' it all falls apart very quickly.

Especially once you start to have serious discussions and try to pick apart his arguments.

Almost every argument I've ever had about Icke comes back to one simple thing: Show me the indisputable hard evidence.

And as soon as you have to start making excuses for why there isn't any or why no one can find any, well that's when you -- as a reasonable, open-minded skeptic, have to say 'okay, something's wrong here'.

That said, he's great if you want to have problems sleeping at night. He's a master at spreading Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt under the guise of Truth.

Well some of his books really get into that. I think that over time he has realized that for the most part that his observations on politics resonate much more strongly with people.

no, as far as i remember (it's been a few years since i've read a couple of his books) he only has one source for all his reptilian bullshit. it's a woman who claimed to be a mind-control sex slave who was a political aide to bush sr. or cheney or something.

just that one woman, and literally nothing to back any of it up.

at the time i read that, i wanted to believe it. i was hanging out with a bunch of cool kids who introduced me to the conspiracy world who all believed it. but if you just really sit back and think about it, it's bullshit. pretty much no one but him makes those claims (except coattail-riding internet attention whores) and no evidence exists except "some woman contacted me and told me these things."

If the answer to proof is not in one book, its in the other. I have read all of them so far. I am trying to get through the latest one. He does offer where to find the proof and tells what the proof is. its better if you go and look for yourself though to be convinced. I did 10 years research on his claims. I cant find where he was misinformed yet! Its hard work but he didnt get where he is by laying by the pool. reading greek and hebrew is not easy. that's what it takes to dig for the proof. even about the reptiles.

The reptiles thing really bugs me:

Almost 7 Billion people on the planet and yet no one's ever managed to capture, kill or even fully record the existence of them?

I'm glad that he's reading the original Greek and whatnot but the one thing that always gets me is that no one ever seems to stop and think that even these ancient peoples were capable of talking out of their asses.

All this time, all these people who are now out there actively looking for them, and still nothing. That tells me something far more than they're just 'really secretive'.

ya I'd also like to believe everything that happens in history is told to the public but we are told prolly 30% of the truth. lol The rest is hidden from the surface. We are told what they allow us to know. The rest we have to do the work and dig for it. That's how I found out we have been lied to since the beginning of our time. There has always been an agenda and we are not in the loop. We never will be. When I say "they" I mean the Elite. The real monsters in charge. Not our president. He's just a puppet and is also told only a what he needs to know.

So what truths have you managed to glean for yourself over the years?

I've read a lot of ancient history like the first writings (but there could be earlier writings but these are the official/unofficial firsts) called Sumarian clay tablets. They are clay tablets with chizzled writings of events that happened 6000bc. One story was pretty much the same as the story in the bible about the flood. Only difference is the names were different and the dating was obviously older than the 2000 bc.

Genetics is another factor. Research DNA. You will see there that there is plenty of evidence that we are biologically engineered and our DNA has nothing to do with monkeys. lol There's a lot more....read his books. All of them. It's like a puzzle. Then read Zacharia Sitchen. Almost the same stuff.

so you've read a zecharian sitchin book or two and now can comment on the specific percentages of things you're not told?

as you said has been really accurate on a large number of things

care to extrapolate on that?

I'm going to assume, I hope it is ok, he means most of what he talks about except the "reptilian" thing.

One of my personal barometers for whether someone is the real deal or not is if they have information that independently corroborates or supports other claims...

That's how I feel, and that's why I was amazed as puzzle pieces were being filled in in my head as he spoke. It's one thing to have some insane theory about aliens controlling us, but it's another to formulate one of the largest world views ranging from who controls us, to the nature of our reality, to spirituality and have it all make jaw-dropping sense.

It's like the equivalent of unifying theory, it makes everything make sense and answers every single one of my questions. When I really started to listen to him is he said that the sole reason he is ridiculed and laughed at is because his views deviate from the norm. But- if we are truly being controlled, in a fascist state, and on our way to an Orwellian one, and furthermore, if almost all sources of information are controlled by them, then they have deliberately set these norms. So basically what he's saying could be true and I, nor anyone else, would have no idea until I heard him out.

thats one of the most frustrating parts about going down the truth seekers path, you will become more and more intellectually isolated if you do not have friends who are also seekers. My friend, for example, is open minded but continues to use NASA as a source to prove certain points. Not that NASA are inherent liars, but they have lied before so you would think an open minded individual would take that into consideration...but he doesn't! Its like trying to argue with someone who doesn't believe the government lies about false flag terrorism, if they can't get out of that paradigm they will never learn! I should probably revisit some of ickes stuff...

if you take the situation and flip it, can you still justify your own mental framework?

you think that because certain people inside NASA (since NASA isn't a sentient being, after all, it's just a collection of human beings) have lied in the past, nothing NASA says is true? how is that any different than thinking that if NASA says it, it must be true?

for all you know, you've possibly swallowed so much disinfo that you're now believing it and spreading it around. at the same time, there could be a group or groups within NASA of truth seekers who are trying to dispel some of the rumors. how would you know? the answer is you don't, so when you operate under the assumption that you're inherently right and others are inherently wrong, you're doing the same thing as those you're ranting against.

Yes I can justify my own mental framework. I never stated that because of a single lie that a given entity is incapable of any degree of truth - what I stated or tried to communicate was that if an entity has lied multiple times in the past, can you really trust that entity as the authority on anything? In other words, my NASA-friend believes the video released of the space landing is a hoax, but when it comes to other things will blindly believe anything NASA says...Those two positions are contradictory, imo.

thats one of the most frustrating parts about going down the truth seekers path, you will become more and more intellectually isolated if you do not have friends who are also seekers.

This is true. I have felt very alienated in America. Now I am staying in Lviv, Ukraine and I can say that there are many people here who understand what is happening. Its important to understand that there are places in the world that are cross roads of important ideas and comprehensions. You can live in one of these places. Finding these places as the time passes is a life challenge.

When becoming awake you are going to feel alone of course. But remember people that are not awake are not now dummer than you or ignorant. Dont try and force people to hear you preach. I tried all that and it just pushes them all away more. introduce it little by little. agree with then that it sounds crazy but show them where they can look to find out for themselves. Most wont open a book. they enjoy the haze of ignorance of an existence that they live in. In that case let it go. For the others, introduce some more. but know that you are in fact not alone. there are millions of us out there.

But remember people that are not awake are not now dummer than you or ignorant.

That doesn't work out at all.

Dont try and force people to hear you preach.

While that is good advice I believe that some people can learn a larger lesson from the alienation that results in speaking or preaching truth.

Only if they are open to listening. Most people are not. So I wish you luck with that. The bible belt has scared enuff people to not look out of that box.....for the fear of being "punished". It's not that easy to try and inform people.

Discovering that the box exists is only one stage. Being punished for informing others is a later stage.

Physical punishment for informing others at a later stage, yes.

But even today, hell anyone who has tried, myself included, can attest to the emotional persecution from people unwilling to part with the notion that everything they have come to believe is a lie. I have personally been ostracized from almost my entire family.

Sometimes it's hard to find people for a good circle jerk...If you ever need a shoulder to cry on, a hug, or someone to tell you that you're right all the time, I'm available.

I am still struggling with the "reptilian" thing myself. It's very difficult to 'know' with out proof and without being "in the circle". As you both have said, closing yourself to ANY amount of information could exclude you from any other forms of information that may be crucial. Keeping an unbiased attitude and taking the information in to formulate opinions when more information is gathered is absolutely necessary.

Basically the way I understand this claim from Icke is that the Zeta, or something (greys), came and tried their genetic experiments on dinosaur, before man, creating this reptilians bipedal race of beings; humanoids. Story story blah blah; they didn't see things similarly and fell to lower states of consciousness. Now, what people presume to be higher beings, are actually beings from the "nether"; a realm where you have nightmares when you sleep, where you have to go, pass through, when dreaming to get to your "true self" and do others things.

Another story I have heard is that when we were created, still being a part of 'God' and basically all the essence of an angel, some higher state beings, I believe the Elohim (Enki/Enlil/Thoth/whoever), invited a race of beings that were almost completely severed from their true selves to learn from humanity. Well, supposedly, humanity "learned" from them and it got so bad that we fell out of this state of essentially god-hood into a state far worse than today; all knowledge lost except what Thoth left behind - such as the Emerald Tablets and the Book of Thoth/Enoch and the Hermetic Philosophies.

Similar to the above, I have also heard that a group, race, that was native to mars, completely severed from "source", used technology to keep the use of "source" since they weren't able to anymore. They had noticed man here on earth, and being the 'evil' beings they were had hoped to rule man and bring them to their state so that they would no longer be alone in the universe.

And even more other than this

David Icke's Occupy Wall Street video is excellent IMO.

What he says is mostly true.

The problem is that he gives no answers on what to replace our monetary system with.

It sounds like he wants to go back to commodity-based currency... but that's a horrible idea.

I'm all for competition of currency. That means bank debt paper gets to compete with commodities, cryptographic currencies like Bitcoin and barter networks.

I like the idea of the bitcoin... But you're going to have to have a functioning internet in order to use it. The way things are looking, the internet (as we know it) has 3-5 years, tops.

I am baffled by the idea of an intangible currency. And you should be to.

The majority of our current currency is intangible.

You realize bitcoin was a ponzi, right? The top levels cashed out and collapsed it a few months back.

Source? Granted, a while back some hackers managed to get access to a profile with a lot of bitcoins in it and started flooding the market, causing exchange rates to plummet.

This situation was quickly rectified, the coins were returned and the market restored.

That is more than likely the accurate read on what I was exposed to. Thanks for the clarification.

No worries.

There's actually a pretty decent amount of security built into bitcoins, I'm just starting to really consider then as a viable option but the more research I do the more impressed I am.

Gold. not in stocks. but actual gold. that's what he says to replace it with. also trading goods for services. produce. the dollar will be eliminated. So all we will have left is trade and gold....hopefully. The middle class will be wiped out so save up that gold now.

At this point, unless you can buy actual, physical gold (not paper gold - which is basically an IOU) there's no point. And at the price Gold's at right now, it's far out of the hands of the lower middle-class.

Which means any physical Gold you buy is more likely to be physically taken from you before you can spend it. (Let alone being able to negotiate a fair market price when you go to sell it).

And that's assuming the US gov't doesn't start going door to door again to 'reclaim' your Gold for the national treasury.

The current Gold rush is just another wealth extraction technique by the rich to take more from the Middle Class.

What you should be doing is taking this time to learn a barter-able skill. Something like wood-working or construction. You're going to need it.

But gold is worthless.

So just because he's not giving out the solution, that renders everything he said as bullshit? Maybe it's up to YOU to realize an alternative system, after all it is YOUR life. I kind of like Zeitgeist's solution; resources based economy. And no, that is not based on commodity-based currency.

You should read what I actually posted instead of just picking one small section of it and going off hogwild on it.

The first thing I said was 'most of what he says here is true' (as in the content of the video).

That said, the man needs to remove the phrase 'if you look up the science' from his lexicon. It's a placeholder phrase that lets him say whatever bullshit he wants and keep you nodding along. The truth is, with the exception of some of his views on banking, there either IS no science (as in the peer-reviewed experiments haven't even been run yet) or what IS there is shaky at best (certainly not backed).

He gets by that by saying generic yet eerie stuff like 'they don't want you to know this' but... most don't care if you know it... Because it's absolute bullshit.

If I were a hyper-secret race of reptoids who, as he states, have no emotion... Just cold, calculating beings, I would've had this little moist, truth-speaking fleshbag disappeared by now. And it wouldn't even have had to be anything more 'odd' than a hit-and-run driver.

He's a fantastic speaker, he's great at, essentially, hypnotism... Getting you to suppress your own conscious, logical part of your mind... But once you kick it back into gear it becomes blindlingly obvious that the man is 2 twigs of truth wrapped in a bale of horseshit.

I'm sorry to piss on your parade but... Well, look at it with an honest, unbiased eye. Is it true because the evidence is THERE? Or is it 'true' because you really, really want it to be? (and there are a great number of reasons why that could be).

I'm sorry to piss on your parade but...

Don't you worry about that :)

With that said, I agree with your description on David Icke. I must say that I haven't watched/read a lot of of his stuff but that is close to the things I have seen so far.

I was just talking about a system where money doesn't exist. Most people find the idea absurd or damn right crazy. How are we supposed to live without money and what will we replace it with?

I mean, come on!!! It's about damn time we started taking responsibility for actions, for our lives. Just as we created a monetary based economy, we can easily replace it with a resource based economy or something else, something completely unheard of, something new.

As for the reptoids, hmmmm that's a tough one. I think I've watched something like that on TV, a series called "V" - it was fun, just fun.

But I have to say, the queen of england just won't die, right? How old is she? 190?

The problem with a 'resource-based' economy is that it creates a whole new issue: what do you do when your part of the world doesn't have resources anymore... 'cause you've used them all up?

In a resource-based economy you end up with places like Canada, Brazil, Venezuela, etc becoming super-powers. That's where all the world's resources are now.

So then what happens? A war for resources. The ones who don't have them show up and attack those that do.

Sort of like, well, what the US did in Iraq and the EU did in Libya for oil.

It's tough to create a new economy, really hard. There are a lot of variables and a lot of heavy lifting.

I like the idea of the Bitcoin economy. It sounds 'virtual' but there's a lot of science behind it. Check it out here: www.weusecoins.com

The problem is that he gives no answers on what to replace our monetary system with.

He does actually - he says the government should create debt free money (like Libya).

Libya had Debt-free money because they had the natural resources to back it up.

They had insane amounts of oil which they would sell on the market (with oil companies paying 30+% back to Libya) and then use the money to back their 'debt-free' currency.

It wasn't debt-free because Ghaddafi just said 'hey we've got debt-free currency!', it was essentially a currency backed by a commodity: oil.

All money creates debt. Something has to be given to create that wealth - time/effort, resources, promises... something. You don't just have 'money'... well, you could, but it wouldn't mean anything. It's like saying 'I've got 20 billion dollars in Monopoly money'.

Great. No one gives a shit. It holds no value because there is nothing behind it, no 'debt'.

A bit of the chicken and the egg...(whether debt is required for a currency) but I believe you have the right idea. The problem is interest on the debt, which doesn't exist. It's the idea that you borrow from future resources to pay back interest where the system fails. If the economy was based on barter, you couldn't really have interest. You can only trade objects that exist now.

Well, the problem in a barter based economy is that by moving into the abstract you move into an area where it's almost entirely uncertain.

You can start bartering on 'futures', saying you'll take 10 chickens now in return for 2 calves in the spring, thinking that 'of course I'll have 2 new calves in the spring'.

And maybe you do... but then one or more dies from a disease. Or they're born defective. Of don't happen at all. Or you have ONLY 2 calves all summer leaving your own family with no calves for the winter.

The monetary markets, especially the Fiat system that we have, allows those sorts of uncertainties to be mitigated (because it's pretty much all abstract, the money's made out of thin air by the central bank).

Well, I've read some of his books and while I find them entertaining...I personally believe he's a nutter. He's a nutter who gets a big chunk of it right, but a nutter nevertheless.

With that said....we know that some of our politicians do satanic rituals because we have them on film doing it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemian_Grove

Sure, he's said some interesting things... but didn't he initially come out with something about him being the second coming of Jesus Christ?

He sure did. David Icke is not be trusted. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiyrHZCksDM

Its a blessing really. When I was aborting my experience in the military I was placed in front of a series of mirrors and 150 people save a few friends walked by and had their all at me. If you wonder what sort of delusioned thoughts were going through my sleep deprived mind then you are missing the point of it all. Its liberation.

Okay, he did say that BUT when he heard a voice telling him the secrets of the universe and what he should do with them......uh anyone who gets that powerful experience would think they were the second coming. After he had this gift for a few years he figured out there is no second coming nor what there even a FIRST. lol So the learning helped him understand he is in fact a messenger but not a second anything. lol he learned to laugh about it. he is only human and he realizes that now. lol.

David Icke seems to have a grab-bag of ideas that he likes to pull from. Without looking into the bag, you never know what your going to get, and unfortunately, some of it sounds bat shit crazy, and other bits have actual merit. I guess it depends on your luck of the draw as to which conversation you listen to.

Well, if I was being controlled by reptilians I would totally lie and say we abduct children to have sex with them in our Satanic rituals, rather than saying we need children to feed the reptilian overlords to prevent them from coming to the surface and eating everyone else.

Edit: The video for some context.

And now David Wilcox is saying stuff about outer space hippies coming here and removing secret bases... So it seems the idea of there being some intergalactic covert ops is meshing with what all these "crazy" people are claiming.

Interesting entertainment at best, completely ridiculous shit at worst.

got any thoughts on that david wilcox guy? i get the creeps from him, but maybe that's just me.

It is fun to listen to because the idea that there is some sort of unknowable reason that gives the powers that be some sort of justification for perpetuating the status quo, such as secret intergalactic covert ops, or some ancient prophetic DNA transmuting astrological cycle, or some other huge noble lie that would completely mindfuck the world if the masses learned about it, seems much better than human nature and chaos, because if it is just all our own doing and not due to some outside influence, then we would have to admit we are responsible for making everything so shitty for ourselves, instead of blaming the ancient god-aliens that put bad thetans in the community water hole.

David Wilcock is my favourite. He is a nutter that believes that the Iraq war was all about getting a time machine from Saddam Hussein. Check him out.

yeah i've read a thing or two from his site on occasion, and every single time i wonder what kind of moron believes this guy's shit.

it's always "well i've got info that would prove what i say is true, but i can't give it to you at this time" or "just pay me to come give a speech to you."

if there's anything i've learned in the conspiratorial world, it's "don't trust crazy wanna-be shamans who cater to new age types and who always refuse to give anything substantial away for free."

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hmm, now i'm interested. i'll poke around the internets and see if i can't pirate it. i think stealing from that guy is enough to make me ok with hearing his message in a fairly serious way. you're right, he probably does keep the good stuff behind the pay-to-open door.

where did you find it? filestube? (just searched, yep, that's a good place to look in case anyone else is interested.)

Don't forget about the inter-dimensional 'elves'...

Isn't that from Terrence Mckenna talking about his DMT trips? Not quite the same as lizard people eating kids and the Andromeda Council fighting the Reptilian-Grey alliance.

Well, if we're talking about whacked-out conspiracy theories that probably are all bullshit, apparently the 'elves' are what are responsible for our sudden surge in technology.

So they say, the Gov't discovered DMT in the 60's and started making contact with 'inter-dimensional beings' called 'elves' that started giving people ideas on how to 'build' things.

I'm in no way trying to put this forward as credible evidence, just saying: everyone and their monkey's got a theory.

And then you can get into the crazy shit that comes from people like Drunvalo Melchizedek.

Which crazy-assed agenda do you listen to? If one's right, well, hell, they've all gotta be at least half-right, right?

cough yeah...

I humbly submit this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBUc_kATGgg

Awesome, never heard of Drunvalo Melchizedek.

For me he's up near the pinnacle of the 'crazy-assed-what-the-fuck-are-you-ON?!' movement.

Oh shit... 13000 years of ponies? I think we are on to something here.

"Drunvalo teaches that by accessing the sacred space in your heart, you can create anything"

Except a convincing argument...

The problem for Icke at the moment is that his website/forum is full of shills and disinfo merchants drowning out his message with a massive amount of nonsensical posts and memes.

at the moment? it's been a hive of crazy bullshit for years.

edit- and don't go and blame it all on whatever your definition of "shill" might be. there's plenty of paranoid crazy people with no affiliation who are mentally incapable of differentiating truth from bullshit who buy into any crazy theory and then do the leg work for spreading it around.

Thank you for saying this. Referring to them as shills or disinformation agents is the No True Scotsman fallacy in action.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

yep. anyone who immediately pulls the shill card is someone i choose to ignore. it implies a pretty severe lack of understanding of what's going on.

for every actual "shill" there's a thousand people who are simply delusional or paranoid beyond reason. a cursory glance at any conspiracy forum will show that, and if you manage to venture into the depths of new ager insanity and return with your mind intact, you'll realize that shills can only hope to achieve the level of bullshit attained when one is disconnected from reality.

(because as subjective as reality may be, you can't ignore the existence of others and their respective realities. if you're one who says that we can create a new reality with our minds, you must also recognize that this means that you cannot ignore the reality already created by other minds.)

The older I get, the more I realize how much I don't know. I think everyone tries to answer the question 'what is reality' but the answer will always be flawed when we answer with our senses. I wouldn't dismiss his version of reality because in an infinite universe, there is infinite knowledge. The fact that our knowledge is finite means there is in infinite amount we still don't know.

very well put! I too have come to this conclusion, therefore I find it quite disheartening that it seems like our society goes by the motto of "well we dont know everything, but we got most questions answered".

he strikes me as a classic example of unwitting (maybe) disinfo.

he says a lot of true things, but then he goes and spews his narrative about interdimensional shapeshifting lizards and loses all credibility. maybe he's gotten new sources, but the last couple icke books i read both cited this random woman who supposedly used to be an aide to bush sr. who told him all these things. just one woman, no confirmation from anywhere else, and we have no proof that she's not crazy or a lying attention whore.

so i think icke's purpose is to obfuscate by lumping in true shit with whacko shit so no one can ever fully separate the two. that way, any time you bring up icke, you inevitably have to defend his crazy reptilian bullshit.

... which is why i say it's best to avoid parroting the words of someone willing to say a bunch of bullshit to sell you books. if he's saying something legit? reword it and don't cite icke as your source. you'll come off with a much stronger point that way.

(and i just touched on it, but it needs saying- he makes a lot of money by selling books to paranoid people. if he were truly doing this out of the good of his soul to advance humanity, why is he still selling the books? he's made enough now to give them away for free to spread the knowledge... but he doesn't do that. why?)

You flood the market with wild "conspiracy theories" so the actual truth is muddied in with the pretend.

Lizards do not control the world. Very rich, powerful people do. All from behind the scenes.

smart guy right here. you'd all do well to listen.

David Icke receives all his info from occult channels; from the spirit realm. They tell him what they want him to relay. The same goes for many significant figures of the movement, all of whom propagate a similar narrative while drawing purposeful attention to similar, purportedly liberating techniques and worldviews. Among those who meet this criteria are Jordan Maxwell, Michael Tsarion, David Wilcock, and Robert Anton Wilson, but that is hardly a comprehensive list.

there are transdimensional forces at work, but their stratagem includes representing themselves deceptively through these figureheads. They also play a role through the ruling forces of this world, but they mean to sacrifice the entire present system in favor of one the popular consensus is prompted to demand in its stead. They do this by spreading the information which reveals the corruption of the present system, intentionally, while making it appear as though it is meant to be hidden. Conversely, they assume the role which implicates the crooked system and accredit their own mechanisms for its success. This causes the people, prompted to oppose the system, to support these mechanisms.

in other words: the goal of these powers is not to rule the world in the guise of the present system, but to reveal to you the illegitimacy of this system while preparing you to replace it, willfully, with one they have programmed you to prefer instead. This is why a belief in conspiracy has grown so widespread within the past ten years. This is why the fringe has steadily been replacing the mainstream and making its way onto everyday TV. This is why the WTC attack took place in a way that would necessarily garner suspicion from a subset of the public as official documentations of things like Operation Northwoods lay just a mouse click away. This is why we went into Iraq only to later be informed all the evidence of WMDs was manufactured. This is why swine flu pandemics and trillion dollar bailouts occur in plain sight in ways that permit even a very gullible person to deduce he is being fooled. None of this happens by accident.

the transdimensional forces I mention are demons. Like biblical demons. The mechanisms they mean to introduce into the public's favor include latent abilities of consciousness which will appear to evidence the divinity of man while also corroborating a spiritual framework which denies the true God. This demonstration will be extraordinarily thorough; it will, by design, seduce every single person who has not erected Jesus Christ as the sole foundation of his worldview.

what I speak here is the truth. I can answer questions as they arise. Sincere investigation will confirm my legitimacy.

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Your eyes are closed, and you're laughing at us? You're posting on r/conspiracy, friend.

Think about the oddness of many conspiracy related topics:

Why is Occupy Wall Street supported by George Soros, and a variety of other esoteric elites? And if global elites run the show, why do they seems to draw attention to the movement by continually belittling it instead of letting it burn itself out like every protest movement in the last 20 years?

Why do we continually see MK ultra and occult symbolism in popular culture, hidden in plain sight? Why would symbols be useful to a human agency? So we think of butterflies when we watch Sucker Punch? So I can be reminded of the weird-fucking one-eye pyramid on the dollar bill? This shit is plain as day, in our faces.

Why do the creatures in alien abductions resemble the creatures reportedly summoned by Alaster Crowley, the famed occultist? And why the hell do encounters with St. Mary, UFO sightings, encounters with mothman all have similar subjectively physical qualities?

Why is it, before 9/11, we saw a spike in television programs depicting torture? And why do we now, instead, see a spike in predictive programming telling us people will get superpowers? I quote, again: "The mechanisms they mean to introduce into the public's favor include latent abilities of consciousness which will appear to evidence the divinity of man..."

But most oddly: Let's say 9/11 was an inside job, that the Iraq war was bullshit right from the beginning, that Osama was either already dead before May 1st 2011, and that investigators who were looking into 9/11 and the BP oil spill are all being found dead - let say our worst fears are true, that the world is run by a mad cabal of elites and so on: Why then, are we allowed to read about it on the internet? None of this information is real "deep net" bullshit - this is stuff that comes up easily on a google search. Why not hide this shit? I know the Politburo in Beijing would never even consider letting info anywhere near this size just float out there, and they're a fucking police state, a real one.

Recall this: what do Masons do? They build. How do you build when there is already a house there? Knock the current one down. Order out of chaos.

There's something going on here, but you don't know what it is, do you, Mr Jones?

And you aren't being deceived, is that correct? Your "God" and Bible aren't demonic at all, nope. Couldn't be. Not a shred of that could have gotten into your man-made book. You are following the pure and perfect path of angels. Just wait till the spiffy new "Jesus" imposter shows up and do whatever he commands. We'll be waving goodbye as you board New Jerusalem.

I'll respond in two ways:

First, Christ himself said not to believe in those who claim to be the messiah.

Secondly, I'm not really sure how demons fit into your paradigm once you dismiss the bible as invalid. What's your personal paradigm of how the world works, if I may ask?

I could go on, but I'd rather ask this first.

I'm not really sure how demons fit into your paradigm once you dismiss the bible as invalid.

Umm yeah, I don't rely on the Bible to tell me what is a demon and what isn't. It's blindingly obvious (most of the time). I don't have or claim to know of an all-encompassing worldview, BUT, I do think we live in a spiritual reality, and that ignorance of this facet is causing quite a bit of harm.

Also, I am not dismissing the Bible as invalid. I actually hold the Bible in high regard, in particular the New Testament. I just don't cling to every passage as 100% unquestioningly true, especially the Old Testament. It was written and edited by men and should be weighed accordingly.

If a religious text was perverted by ill-intentioned men, in an attempt to deceive you to worship a satanic entity, how would you ever know, if you refused to question it? You should question everything, especially an entity that demands your everlasting worship and obedience. Christ was/is a man I can jive with, but no man is perfect, and perhaps he too was deceived during his time as a man. Maybe Jehovah is just another demon trying to trick you into giving up your soul. Maybe a very clever and successful demon... maybe organized religion is yet another tough test for your soul... ;) I don't know. Maybe I am wrong and a big idiot. Maybe you are. Maybe we both are. Maybe by talking together we can learn to overcome the oppression our souls live in.

Look, here's a question:

You should question everything, especially an entity that demands your everlasting worship and obedience.

But, here's the thing: Let's say we have an entity, which is, in fact, the literal conception of goodness and love. Let's further say that and worshiping and obeying this entity would result in one being closer to this entity, closer to goodness and love, which would make it, by definition, in your own self-interest to worship and obey it.

Now, if one assumes those two things are true - and this entity is in fact, good, why wouldn't this entity ask that we worship and obey it, since it is in fact not only in our own self-interest to do so, but in fact, an loving act to request this, in light of the above?

But even if you do not believe this: If Lucifer, as an entity, is not acting in opposition to the God of the bible, then what's up with him? Why is he obsessively trying to get everyone to worship him - a behavior pattern which is born essentially out of a hateful desire to keep people from reconciling with and coming to God, who desires this? He's certainly not a source of all goodness or love. Without the biblical God, his motivations make no sense - where would such an entity even come from?

Let's say we have an entity, which is, in fact, the literal conception of goodness and love. Let's further say that and worshiping and obeying this entity would result in one being closer to this entity, closer to goodness and love, which would make it, by definition, in your own self-interest to worship and obey it.

I have a tough time swallowing that the literal conception of goodness and love would want so badly for us to worship and obey it. I could see, for example, if said entity was in danger, lacked power, and needed our energies to save it from malevolent forces. Possibly. However, having seen and experienced said goodness and love, and being not asked it of me to worship/obey, it does not make sense to me. I rather feel that any benevolent omnipotent creator would want me to join and help of my own free will. At one point in my life I said to myself: "God might not be on my side, but I'm on God's side." By this I meant God isn't doing me any special favors, etc, but I'm gonna stand for truth and goodness, regardless, because I associated those things with God.

If Lucifer, as an entity, is not acting in opposition to the God of the bible, then what's up with him?

I'll clarify that I don't believe in Lucifer. I have little definition of what Lucifer really is. I've never actually experienced a Lucifer... or a Jehovah, so I'm really on the fence. On the one hand we have the "Illuminati" claiming he's the good guy, and your average Christian claiming he's a bad guy. Personally I think these Armageddon Conspiracy types have made a big mistake: assuming the opposite of the Bible is true because they have a different take on Adam and Eve. Like, for example, claiming Jesus is a bad guy, and thus Simon Magus the good guy. I think they've just done the same thing with Lucifer, trying to search for the "hidden good guy". It's reaching, and honestly, I doubt many people believe it, because atheists/agnostics/skeptics are attracted to this movement, and they aren't about to drop their materialism to start believing in "Lucifer". It's clear as day it's replacing one religious figurehead for another. As a once very hardcore atheist, I would have laughed that bullshit off instantly.

Why is he obsessively trying to get everyone to worship him

I would ask the same question of Jehovah. Maybe they are competing for our worship. But, I haven't experienced anyone named Lucifer trying to get me to worship him. Never been to a church like that. Been to many churches where I was expected to worship Jehovah though. Just can't do it. I'll accept Christ as a good, sure.

Without the biblical God, his motivations make no sense - where would such an entity even come from?

Well I can't use Lucifers proclaimed existence as a justification to start believing in Jehovah. But ... I have no idea where these entities would have come from. The great scientific myth is that something came from nothing. Nope. Much more reasonable to assume that there was always something, and always will be.

Good chattin with ya

he makes sense.

I never have committed to a particular view as far as the origin or future of mankind. If a person can open his/her mind and consider the possibility of multiple dimensions and inter-dimensional beings, science and mathematics supports many of the assertions made by those who believe in the existence of such beings. I have only recently began looking into this subject and I have been intrigued by what I have read. I would like to find some more information regarding inter-dimensional beings and the science behind multi-dimensional concepts. There seems to be no definitive source.

The first step, then, is to put down the cute terminology. You call them inter-dimensional beings; I'll call them what they are: spirits. demons. This is not science, it's occultism.

Aliens, Saints, Spirits, Shadow People, Folklore, "Inter-dimensional Beings": Call them what you want, but it's all the same shit with different coats of paint.

You lost me at accepting Jesus into my heart...

fuck you aphemix that is the most balony i have ever heard

and fuck your one god you dawk

I try not to discount anything but Icke has made a small fortune off these ideas.

I'm unsure why it's harder for you to believe that government officials rape children and hold satanic rituals than reptilians trying to control our planet.

Ewan Cameron is documented to have been doing mind control experiments on children with MKULTRA and sexual abuse was apart of that. There's also the Finders and Franklin Coverup that have been left unanswered by the CIA. It's not very farfetched that government officials are pedophiles. Satatnic rituals I'm not totally certain about, but would not be surprised if its true considering Bohemian Grove, Skull & Bones society, etc.

I like how you're with the alien stuff but you think the pedo/satanic shit is crazy talk. Especially since there's pretty much factual documented evidence for it.

Well I was trying to be more persuasively diplomatic, I'm completely on board actually.

You mean like with churches and such?

Well I was thinking more along the lines of secret societies.

half truths are dangerous You can denounce the hubris and banking cartels easily, but to then say reptiles are behind it..... thats just crazy talk

I saw David Icke: The Lizards and the Jews and I liked it. You guys should watch; it involves the ADL.

That was a sad and frustrating doc, especially because I live in Vancouver where much of the protesting took place.

whilst he does talk mostley in metaphores i preffer to think of him as a disinfo agent shepard. he grabs all the 40' wives and people who do start doubting the system and takes them into a garble warble world of lunacy. this is from the basis that he is kind of mainstream and a bit of a mystic. so i gues he shouldnt really be taken seriously but what the hell he is fun. oh and watch out for the reptilians, yikes....

Where are al these forty foot tall wives of which you speak?

:) man was i drunk when i wrote that down.

Do you have any specific reason or evidence to believe we should not take him seriously?

reptilians for a start... altough that one is a metaphore. the moon theory, that its a big mind altering whatever put there to munipulate us. and also its just that he spouts so much random nonsence about aliens that i cant really take him seriously..

I have looked into this more than I would like to admit, including looking over lots of old David Tice newscasting videos from non-reptilian-related sources where the videos could not have been doctored and I saw some fucking creepy shit in regular newscastings. From my research, David Tice comes up a fuckton and appears to be one of the worst reptilians at keeping the cloak up 100% of the time... or whatever the fuck is going on here.

Also, you can find incidents of suspected lizard people being called out, and they NEVER will say "I am not a lizard person". here is the type of stuff I am talking about. Seriously, seriously, why the FUCK would Rumsfield not tell Louis CK "I am not a lizard person"? Seriously, what the fuck?

Some of the digital errors are just too strange, plus they appear to be able to tell when the guise is falling and que a change of camera somehow. I am not sure what to believe. I wanted so badly to debunk this seeming lunacy, but the more I look into it the more possible it seems.

I do not agree with him on the whole "spirit of the sun/earth" type stuff, but agree with him on most everything else. Especially the "quanton hollogram" or "collective hallusination" view of the universe, this seems to have been since proven by quantum physics (that we are all literally entangled and are literally one mind). Still undecided about extra-dimensional lizard-people, like I said the more I try to debunk it the more legit it seems.

One personal story though, I must share that has to do with the collective hallucination and lizard-people: About 5 months ago when I was really thinking and researching about this the most. Very long story cut very short: I was nearly certain I would come into personal contact with a lizard person, just because of the way that thoughts become things in The One Grand Field (of energy). Anyway, I was at this party and somehow reptilians came up, not even from me. And I was like "holy shit I bet one is here". So not wanting to miss my chance to corner one like Louis CK did in the above clip, I interjected that there is reason to suspect that lizard people cannot directly lie (at least about that). Then I proudly said "I am NOT a Lizard person!", attempting to clear myself in hopes people would do the same. It took a while but I got everyone else to join in, I seriously had such good reason to believe I would come into contact with a lizard person that night, or at least sometime soon. Anyway, there was this one kid who it turns out was actually the weed-man that delivered and no one really knew him that well. He would not say it. He just said "I can't". I begged him to put my mind at ease and just say those words like everyone else, but he refused. I even offered money, and was up to 60$ cash I had out ready to seriously hand him just for saying "I am not a lizard person" to put my mind at ease. He just refused, everyone got creeped the fuck out, and the dude just left without saying bye when everyone was staring at him waiting to take my drunken ass'es money and make me look like an insane fool. But he didn't. Apparently he needs money so bad he will risk felonies and work for it, but not bad enough to get paid 10$ a word for 6 fucking words? Seriously, wtf.

Anyway, sorry for the rant. That is just my story and take on all of this. I am not sure at all, but at this point the lizard-person hypotheses is seriously beginning to seem like the most probable and even most simple explanation, even though I want so badly to be able to forget all this all and just put this all to rest as mere irrational nonsense in my own mind.

hey man, from someone who has been there, chill the fuck out. if you're thinking lizard people are talking to you at parties, you're fucking crazy. sorry to break it to you, but even assuming that they exist, why the fuck would one of the lizard elite bring you weed at a party? if there's so many lizard people that they work as fucking weed delivery guys, why don't more people know about them? there'd be MILLIONS of lizard people pretending to be human.

do you see where this is going? you need to stop and think about this stuff. you're cool now, but in 5 years? don't go down the crazy paranoido path, man.

Actually, it would probably not be a "lizard elite". It would be someone with lizard-dna. They would bring my friend weed at a party because if reptilians are among us they are probably just regular people for the most part. If they exist, I wouldn't be surprised if many/most of them didn't know they were carriers of these atypical genetics.

If there are lizard people, there are probably millions of people who carry at least a bit of the genes by now, just some with more and less reptilian genes, and more or less reptilian knowledge. I am not sure if they would be terrestrial, extraterrestrial or extra-dimentional, I really know nothing except what I have read and experienced.

I do not think a reptilian talked to me, I am simply sharing my story. There is good reason and evidence to believe that lizard people are among us, I am simply following the evidence wherever it leads and sharing my reason that I cannot dismiss this no matter how badly I wan to.

I appreiciate your concern, truley. Thanks I will seriously head your warning, and I took a step back and a serious re-look to make sure I was truly following the evidence and I am.

This shit is fucked up, I agree. I do not believe in lizard people and passionately seek to prove invalid all evidence. However, this universe is far more strange than we could even imagine. I simply follow the evidence wherever it leads, and all I can conclude is that my reasearch is still inconclusive. Also, I am forced to be honest with myself and realize that the harder I try to debunk this shit the more strange shit I dig up and the more lose ends I need to tie before I can put this to rest.

your little "i'm not crazy' explanation doesn't jive with what you said above.

why would you press someone on some myth that lizard people can't lie when you ask them if they're a lizard? first off, that's seriously one of the craziest things i've ever heard said about lizard people. that's some medieval superstitious bullshit. secondly, you're suggesting that they have to be conscious of being a lizard person, or else they wouldn't ask suspiciously. that does not match what you just said of "they don't know they're lizard people."

seriously man, this is a mental health issue from you. where you are? i've been there. that strange shit you "dig up," where do you dig it up? where do you find it? is it trustworthy? and ask yourself this question- if it's truly a secret worth hiding, why don't they hide it? if thepantheistpope can find it on the internet with minimal effort, you can bet your ass that the lizardmen protectors can find it, too. why do you think they let you find that? and why do you think they let info slip out so a few people believe in the lizard people?

i'll offer you one clue- symbolism. you're taking things literally that are not meant to be taken literally. the reptilian aspect is symbolic of certain parts of human nature. notice how some people can be cold-blooded in their treatment of others? did you see what i just did with that play on words? now think about that with regard to actual physical shapeshifting lizards, then consider what that might mean if it's instead talking about someone who pretends to be human around others, but in secret is emotionless with regard to the fate of its fellow mammals. for example... donald rumsfeld, since you linked to that. can you imagine donald rumsfeld nursing an infant? showing compassion to a group of children? i can imagine it, but not well. the man is a warmonger who has no problem lying to his own country and abusing his power to start wars of profit for his buddies at the expense of his own people. that's some reptilian shit, which is in return just a mammalian stereotype of reptile behavior.

basically, don't go so far out onto the ledge. like i said, i've been there. you're going to drive yourself crazy with paranoia unless you curb it a little. if the thought that "the weed guy might be a lizard person" even crosses your mind to the point that you decide to fuck with him about it, you are driving yourself crazy. you're seeing things in shadows that aren't there.

focus on the real enemy. i'm not even saying to assume that they aren't real, because fuck it, you can believe in it if you want. i'm just saying to ignore it. focus on what you can see and prove. who cares if there's a physical lizard conspiracy as long as there's what looks like humans in positions of power? fight those humans, stand against their plans. go nuts, have fun. but... if you base your arguement on "they're lizard people" you have to realize that only crazy people believe you because you jive with their confirmation bias. like you, they seek confirmation that it's real and they're not crazy, even at a subconscious level. you don't want to believe that you might have been spun around so badly that you take symbolism literally. (which is exactly what happened to mainstream christians, and you see what happens after centuries of allowing yourself to be indoctrinated.)

I feel like you are not even reading what I am typing now or something.

I never claimed not to be crazy, so not sure what you are saying. I am simply sharing my story because the OP asked.

I agree that lizard people cannot lie seems crazy, but there is good reason and evidence to believe they operate this way. This is not superstitious anything, it is a commonly held hypotheses derived from observation.

I am not suggesting that they have to be conscious of being a lizard person, nor did I say or imply that.

I found it from hundreds of hours of research and factchecking, but the thing that most unsettling is the David Tice film that I spent dozens of hours pouring over... and blah blah blah I am just repeating myself you didn' even read what I typed I have no idea why I am typing to someone who clearly isn't even reading what I type before replying to it.

I want to correct about every single thing you said but don't have the time. Thanks anyway. I am not paranoid, or afraid, this is just something I have spent hundreds of hours researching in my spare time because I enjoy seeking truth.

no, i did read what you said. it just got overshadowed by

One personal story though, I must share that has to do with the collective hallucination and lizard-people: About 5 months ago when I was really thinking and researching about this the most. Very long story cut very short: I was nearly certain I would come into personal contact with a lizard person, just because of the way that thoughts become things in The One Grand Field (of energy).

i understand what you mean. whatever else you said doesn't matter, because i read between those lines. you fucking said it, man. you solved your own puzzle without realizing it.

you had it on your mind. you were too immersed in it. it's like standing on the surface of the moon versus looking at it from earth- you're too close to have an accurate perception of the whole.

you thought that you could manifest a meeting by your intent and desire. it would answer your questions and confirm certain things.

but what you didn't understand is that it's another symbolic concept. things don't manifest without your direct control. you manifest them. you are the universe, so if you manifest something it's indistinguishable from "the universe manifested this for me."

you reached. it's cool, like i've been telling you man, i've been there and done that. i've reached, and it almost got me. don't let it get you, because it will. if you don't know what "it" is, you will. hopefully you find it the easy way, not the hard way.

So you're saying Jim Morrison really was the lizard king and the The Doors ( of perception) were opened?

[deleted]

Seems unrelated. What am I missing?

I almost forked out $90 to see him talk live in Melbourne on the weekend. Then I saw that the talk went from 9am to 7:30pm and decided I couldn't deal with that much crazy when I could torrent the same talk.

They Live

Big fan right here!!! Ive read all his books.

El tardo supremo disinfo agent. "let me make your views ridiculous."

David Icke is deceived.

ahahahahah. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

?

lol

What are you loling at fatty?

???

David Icke says some interesting stuff, but as with anything you should always check out both sides as debunking David Icke is very interesting too. What bothers me about people like Icke is they claim to have access to all this information but have yet to give any solid plan or ideas on how to fix things that don't involve you whoring out their material. If I had first hand knowledge of an alien invasion controlling earth I would be doing a lot more than writing books and speaking about it.

Some of the things he says are worth hearing but I can't get past the alien lizard people stuff. Having said that my partner is big on aliens and ghosts and I have come to realize that keeping an open mind about it makes for some interesting conversations and there's not any harm in engaging views that seem far-fetched, at least if it's accepted that without evidence it's not science.

the reptillian shit is a little too much for me.

Icke makes a lot of sense, and he's an excellent public speaker. Even his reptilian theory makes sense if you look at it in the right way, not in a literal way but in a spiritual sense.

Take anything you see or hear with a grain of salt.

Reptilians could exist. Reptilians could be ancient memories of the human species or they could be an invention to keep the masses under fear and under control.

he does continue far down the crazy path, claiming that our presidents and other government officials rape children

Relevant.

and hold satanic rituals and such.

Alleged satanists are frequently used in projects like MKULTRA to break down and debase young children repeatedly. Something about this kind of abuse allows programming to take root in a much more solid fashion, and is frequently sexual in nature... I believe it had to do with fracturing one's personality so it can be compartmentalized... very interesting subject, but incredibly sinister if true.

Yeah I killed a lizard man in a confrontation but it's brothers came and dragged the corpse away almost immediatly

And you aren't being deceived, is that correct? Your "God" and Bible aren't demonic at all, nope. Couldn't be. Not a shred of that could have gotten into your man-made book. You are following the pure and perfect path of angels. Just wait till the spiffy new "Jesus" imposter shows up and do whatever he commands. We'll be waving goodbye as you board New Jerusalem.

The reptiles thing really bugs me:

Almost 7 Billion people on the planet and yet no one's ever managed to capture, kill or even fully record the existence of them?

I'm glad that he's reading the original Greek and whatnot but the one thing that always gets me is that no one ever seems to stop and think that even these ancient peoples were capable of talking out of their asses.

All this time, all these people who are now out there actively looking for them, and still nothing. That tells me something far more than they're just 'really secretive'.

I've read a lot of ancient history like the first writings (but there could be earlier writings but these are the official/unofficial firsts) called Sumarian clay tablets. They are clay tablets with chizzled writings of events that happened 6000bc. One story was pretty much the same as the story in the bible about the flood. Only difference is the names were different and the dating was obviously older than the 2000 bc.

Genetics is another factor. Research DNA. You will see there that there is plenty of evidence that we are biologically engineered and our DNA has nothing to do with monkeys. lol There's a lot more....read his books. All of them. It's like a puzzle. Then read Zacharia Sitchen. Almost the same stuff.

Well I was thinking more along the lines of secret societies.