you have to be careful supporting the views of NK (Neutra Karta). As much as I (as a Jew) support their anti-Zionist views,as well as their belief that Zionism has destroyed the once ancient religion of Judaism, NK is not humanistic. Notice you seldom see women amongst their ranks. Notice they don't associate with secular Jews, such as myself, even though I share most of their views, they won't be seen with me. Being a proud Jew as well as an anti-Zionist is difficult and lonely enough, but there is no haven amongst them. That is why I love r/conspiracy! :D

Ive seen a Jews against Israel thing talking to Ahmedenajhad on some Iranian video. I have no opinion on Zionism. Neither sides hands are clean. The jews lied & killed to get their country, just as Muslims are are lieing & killing on every front of the Muslim world. At least Israel has a somewhat secular democracy & a general desire for peace right now.

israel is a secular democracy and a general desire for peace? Ata ochel srateem?

the orthodox parties are taking over. not to mention they are bringing back jim crow. Did you hear that orthodox ministers decided that africans in israel should get their own buses in south tel aviv because they smell? there is a comfortable sheet of racism covering most of israeli society. throwing around derogatory words is common place in israel.

Most Ashkenazi think being a jew is genetic. Like being a Hindu is genetic. Absurd.

I have a buddy who, when he thought it through and figured out that Judaism is a religion and is no more genetic than Christianity he didn't know what to do with himself he was so happy. Not because he thinks being Jewish is bad, just that he was raised in a family where such thought wasn't really common. He thought that he was somehow both Jewish AND Catholic because is his last name.

Cheers and an upvote.

Most Ashkenazi think being a jew is genetic. Like being a Hindu is genetic. Absurd.

Where does tyzacks fall into all of this? I've always wondered this and I'm honestly not trolling. Any info is appreciated, thanks.

That would be a condition of being Ashkenazi. Judaism (Jewishness) is a beliefset just like Christianity is a beliefset.

If you are Ashkenazi then you'll have conditions related to being Ashkenazi. That would be on the genetic level. An example apart from your topic would be that a given black person has a statistically higher chance of having sickle cell anemia (genetic level). But that doesn't mean they like hip hop (beliefset).

In short being a Jew is purely mental (like being a Christian) and has no physical manifestations other than behavior, language and thought patterns (like Christianity). Being Ashkenazi is purely a genetic issue and has nothing to do with thoughts, behaviors or language. It's primary manifestation is that you're a touch lighter relative to a lot of other humans. That's about it.

Going all the way back to your question it actually doesn't, in any way, apply to Judaism.

Not counter-trolling. Just offering what knowledge I have.

Cheers.

Zionism = racism.

Newspeak. It's the politically correct way to be a bigot. I hate the term racist too, because there is only one human race. Within it are multiple ethnicities, not races.

Shit, a good chunk of Christians are Zionists.

Joe Biden bragged about being one.

A Zionist is someone who supports institutionalizing Jewish supremacism, either directly (e.g. Isreal) or indirectly (e.g. Jewish racketeering in the diaspora that, for example, has led to massive Jewish over-representation in the Democratic Party).

Additionally, there are all manner of supremacist components in the Jewish religion that encourage Jewish racketeering and exploitation of non-Jews, and utter contempt for non-Jews (goyim). For example, one Israeli rabbi not long ago declared non-Jews are animals who are put on earth to serve Jews, which is a position backed by much Jewish doctrine.

Should Judaism be outlawed? No. Should Judaism be recogized by everyone as the highly evolved racketeering and generally racist enterpirse that it is? Yes. Are there racketeering elements to other organized religions? Yes. Those should be recognized, too.

I've found that a lot of even the non-Jews who defend organized Jewry today are themselves psychologically prone to thinking within Jewish supremacist paradigms, whether they're aware of it or not. This can take the form of Judeo-Christian Zionism, or politically correct "Holocaustianity" (the belief that the Jewish people are some kind of "chosen" collective or crucible made supreme by peresecution). And those are just two examples. There are others on both the left and right.

The truth is, just like the Isaeli Zionist Jews, organized Jewry has brought the vast mamority of its suffering on itself due to its own sense of entitlement and chauvinism. The whole victim shtick is part of its racket. And I'm sure that most Jews who are capable of being honest with themselves will agree.

Indeed, I think that most sophisticated people today can see that so many elements of the Abrahamite religions in this day and age are nothing but a racket.

I thought its kinda well known...

Noam Chomsky

Norman Finkelstein

Haim Bresheeth

. . .

Its a sad but true fact that most Modern Orthodox Jews (Not the guys in black hats, more like the religious people who live and work in the modern world. They keep all the Torah commandments, but they're not to the level of say Hasidism, and not secular to the point of someone like me) They support Israel above all. Most will never visit anywhere in the world besides Izrael and Poland for the march of the living, XooHR!.

Their entire being for being Jewish is the state of Izrael and Never Again. For them $2billion in aide to Israel is their Jewish identity. American Jews emigrate to Israel freely, speak freely about their views on Izrael without regard to other peoples feelings. Modern Orthodox Jews get drunk and celebrate Purim, yet think nothing of bombing Modern Persia (where more Jewish holy sites exist than in The Levant).

I was telling my Kahanist Modern Orthodox family the other day: If Israel is your foundation for being Jewish, and not the 5700 year old religion, you may as well eat a bacon cheeseburger, because you have no idea what being Jewish really is. FYI, its not the NK either

So what percentage of Jews support Zionist goals? From what I've read, it's a very high percentage, the majority by an easy margin. Most Jews are Zionists. Sure, a few are not, but most are. Why are we to ignore the reality that the vast majority of Jews are Zionist and support Zionist actions and goals?

I have no idea what percentage of the larger population of Jewish people are Zionists, but I can tell you, out of the 2 dozen or so Jewish people I know, not a single one supports Zionism.

Good for them, they are on the correct side of this moral issue in my opinion. I do believe that they are in the minority, however.

Personally, I couldn't say either way. I have no way of knowing for sure if your statement is true or false. There is no statistical information that I know of on the percentage of Zionists in Jewish population or in the general population. So I don't see how your conclusion that "most Jews are Zionists" can not be proven.

[deleted]

Where on earth did you find hatred? I don't see why understanding that most Jews are Zionists implies any hatred of any kind. It's a recognition of a reality, nothing more. As such, it has consequences that may play a part in understanding political situations that arise.

Most Jews are Zionists.

[citation needed]

Yeah, the logic on this subreddit is awesome, until you start talking about Judaism and Zionism.

That's like saying that just because a white person invented jelly, that we all secretly lather it all over ourselves in big groups without everyone knowing, and that's the only reason it's popular.

Keep in mind he might be right.

But unless he can show some kind of objective proof of his allegation it should be considered nothing more than opinion.

Unfortunately, there is a lot more opinion than fact on this topic.

Here's the thing...it's not like every Jewish family is indoctrinating their children with these whacky ideas.

Every sensible person knows that.

I would wager that most anti-zionists in here have no jewish friends, and so can only imagine the plots being hatched to exploit the goyim.

They just blindly hate jews the way that some people blindly hate americans.

For some people ignorance and hate are default settings.

This doesn't seem to be an easy number to pin down. I've just been Googling to find out what percentage of Jews are Zionists. The gut feeling seems to be most of them -- answers range from 50% to 100%. However, I don't see any firm figures backed by studies in the links I've Googled ... which is curious, since I would think this would be an important enough question to be prominently placed in the results. But it isn't. Someone quoted the result of one survey here some while ago. I think the percentage was over 80% in that survey. My own gut feeling is that it is over 90%, probably somewhere around 98%. But you're correct in saying that there is more opinion than fact on this matter, which is odd since it would not seem to be a difficult question to ask Jews. "Do you support the existence of Israel?" for example, since Israel is a Zionist entity.

It's a difficult question because "zionism" is difficult to define.

If you define it as "does Israel have the right to exist as a state?". I'm a zionist. Most jews are, by this definition, zionist.

If you define it as "Israel has the right to kill Palestinians like the scum that they are". I'm an anti-zionist. It would be a mistake to suggest that most jews feel this way.

The problem is that when legitimate anti-zionists start making reference to all jews being... then they've generalized their hatred to an entire religious/ethnic/cultural group. This is despicable.

Hating the specific zionists (jew or otherwise) who support evil is perfectly legitimate. Hating all jews is anti-semitic.

I was kicked out of a jelly rubbing group because I couldn't keep my damn mouth shut.

That's like saying that just because a white person invented jelly, that we all secretly lather it all over ourselves in big groups without everyone knowing, and that's the only reason it's popular.

What makes you think a white person invented jelly? It may have been a Muslim.

Now Muslims can't be white people!?

Posting a statistic with no proof. How typical of you. You are a part of the problem OP is talking about, along with bumblingmumbling, and a few others.

Yeah, this post is gonna fall on deaf ears. literally EVERY single time I say anything about the rampant Jew hatred on this board, I'ts met with, "I don't think you know what Zionism is, it's bad."

YES. THAT'S DANDY. but every time you bring to light the fact that some days, every other post on this subreddit has the word "Jew" in it, they act like you are talking about Zionists, as if the two are just interchangeable terms.

[deleted]

While I agree, kind of, a lot of the time on this subreddit, people add the "Jew" adjective when describing something, because t hey think it's pertinent.

"Jewish restaurant owner interviewed about salami," It's not needed. all it's doing, is discrediting people that connect the dots.

Your comments are not falling on deaf ears. As a recently added mod here, I'd say this issue is easily amongst the top 3 we discuss and try to address. I believe there is a vocal and active subset of users who are intent on tarnishing our image with racism and hate. I don't understand their agenda, but we battle their actions pretty much daily.

That subset is the hasbara and the zionists.

concern trolls

Everyone can spot them.

We ignore them.

When they snag a naive, innocent we cut the line with down-votes.

The trolls have a right to free speech. Their presence and activity tells us we are on the front line and having an impact.

well put, its like "real recognize real" - see you in the trenches

I thought this was the trenches.

nah r/conspiracy is like home base, i mean out there

All I see ever see out there (not counting OWS) is business as usual. No uprising, no murmuring of discontent. I only find it here.

thats because if you speak up you get belittled and downvoted, that is what we are fighting

Yes.

Persevere.

You have to admit, that's some slippery logic.

It is NOT logic it is my GUESS.

Sure, opinions are great to have.

It may, however, be a mistake to absolve all of the anti-semites that inhabit this subreddit by suggesting they are just pretending to be anti-semites.

There are no anti-semites. They are like terrorists. People who you want to vilify by calling them names.

Further, Semite use to mean: a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs b: a descendant of these peoples 2: a member of a modern people speaking a Semitic language. Now it means jew.

Zionist rely upon people being afraid of being called anti-semetic which implies anti-jew. It is a "red-herring".

Your last comment seems to indicate that you have been caught up in the political correctness.

Do you really think this is the hangout for anti-jews?

Who would pretend to be anti-jew if they really were?

This is one of the few places where zionism can be criticized. The Hasbara don't like the criticism so they down-vote. They consider it their patriotic duty and their responsibility to prevent another holocaust. The zionists are the ones who post the (false flag) extreme anti-jew and anti-Israel stuff so that people will disregard the anti-zionists.

Being an anti-zionist is the same as being anti-aparthate or anti-neocon. It is anti-Israel but not anti-Israeli or anti-jew or even anti-semetic.

There are a number of people in here who, while criticizing zionists, include all jews in that criticism. They are anti-jew.

There are also a number of people in here who criticize Israeli policy but don't generalize to all jews. They are not anti-jew.

Racism and hate affects all people. There are certainly zionists who hate and are racists. You've suggested that they are the only ones in here who are being racist and hateful. This slippery logic suggests that any example of anti-semitism in here is false flag anti-semitism. Obviously, this is a ridiculous thing to say. If you didn't mean that, fair enough.

I don't give a fuck about political correctness. I just don't like scapegoaters, racists and people who try to suggest that the only evil in the world comes from the people they hate. Its cowardly and ill-informed.

I'm not saying that this describes you, but it certainly describes others in here.

Israel deserves a shitload of criticism. Almost as much as the US.

The mistake some people make is that they claim that all Israelis are as guilty of war crimes as the Israeli government. This is as foolish as saying that all Americans are responsible for the evil perpetrated by the US.

And this is the central question of the entire anti-zionist movement in /r/conspiracy. Why is Israel and her supporters the subject of so much hate? There are any number of other countries in the world where the elites are greedily killing/marginalizing/enslaving/torturing their people. For christsake look at what the Chinese, Russians, and Americans are doing.

So yes, please feel free to hate the Israeli state but when generalizations are made to all jews, you've lost the support of a great deal of people who would have supported you. If you want to pretend that there isn't any anti-jewish sentiment in here, fine, but that simply isn't true.

You have jumped to the defense of the indefensible by going into attack mode. That is the tactic of the JDL, the hasbara, the neocons and the zionists.

I certainly appreciate that you have excluded me from your "hate" attack. I do not hate anyone.

The anti-zionist movement is a world-wide phenomena and is REDACTED elsewhere so it appears here.

I do not "pretend that there isn't any anti-jewish sentiment in here". Just as I do not pretend that there isn't any anti-Obama sentiment in here. I just don't pay any attention. I certainly don't try to counter that sentiment by claiming that people who think he is a criminal are racist and hateful. Because you know that could lead to disproportionate representation in prison or jim crow laws or (gulp) slavery. No! Never again! Doesn't it make more sense to ask what it is that Obama has done to earn your displeasure or label as a criminal? If there is any pretending it is that the discussion is about hate.

The issue is free speech.

Woah, woah, woah. How have I jumped to the defense of the indefensible? How is my separating attacks on Israel from attacks on jews a tactic of the JDL, the hasbara, the neocons and the zionists? Presumably, those people would defend themselves rather than criticize. How is what I've said or how I've said it attack mode? Surely calling out bigotry is a legitimate form of free speech?

I'm not sure why you brought Obama into it but, here goes. There is much to criticize about Obama but when people say that he was destined to fail because he is black, they've stopped being legitimate critics and have fallen into racism. Surely you see the parallel. Israeli internal and foreign policy is, occasionally, reprehensible but it is a mistake to claim that all jews are reprehensible.

Free speech is a great thing but hate speech is disgusting. Criticizing the actions of specific people is a healthy and necessary route to accountability, generalizing the actions of a few specific people to a way larger ethnic/cultural/religious/racial subset of the population is disgusting.

You have mischaracterized "the anti-zionist movement" in a way that disparages and suggests a link between anti-zionist and so called anti-semitic which is the code word for racist anti-jew. That is what all those groups do. That you did it reflexively and cannot see it even when it is pointed out is one of the reasons that the "anti-zionists" feel compelled to be so startling.

The reason I brought up Obama is the absurdity of assuming all criticism is racially motivated and that would parallel the absurdity of assuming anti-zionism is racially motivated.

"Hate speech" is an invention of the zionists to restrict criticism of zionism. There is no such thing apart from free speech.

“If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all.” ― Noam Chomsky

No, no I haven't.

I've said that there are anti-zionists that don't focus their hatred at just zionists but towards all jews. You really need to stop being so defensive of the criticism of factions of your movement. What I've done is expressly stated that some of the actions of the state of Israel are reprehensible but defended jews who don't share the zionist worldview. You are the one who is being dogmatic and defensive.

You are the one that is suggesting that any criticism of any anti-zionists is a criticism of all anti-zionists. This is the defensive tactics of the JDL, the hasbara, the neocons and the zionists. You are mimicking their tactics and unreasonably refusing to accept legitimate criticism.

Lastly, hate speech was not invented by zionists. Hate speech is the verbalization of racism used as weapon. Feel free to support the anti-zionist movement but recognize that by ignoring the racists in your midst you are condoning their actions. If you want your criticism to gain legitimacy, you shouldn't stand for the anti-jewish bigots in your movement.

You keep talking about hatred*.

I keep telling you the issue is free speech: criticism of anti-zionists using ant-semitism is an attack on free speech.

The idea that criticism of zionism is hatred of jews* is the problem I am trying to bring to your attention.

There is an anti-AIPAC movement, a BDS movement, a free Palestine movement etc. I am not a part of any group. You are alleging guilt by association "by ignoring the racists in your midst you are condoning".* You are afraid that my freedom to criticize zionism gives cover to racists and ant-jewish bigots. You cannot see the absurdity of this FEAR. I tried to point out the parallel absurdity of giving cover to racists by criticizing Obama. It is irrational.

I am NOT suggesting that criticism of any anti-zionist is a criticism of all anti-zionists. You are trying to make this the the issue.*

So called hate speech was not invented by zionists. The term, the phrase, and the legislation is zionist.

• *tactics of the JDL, the hasbara, the neocons and the zionists

First you suggest that the only racism and hatred in here is from the hasbara and the zionists. here

Then you claim that there is no such thing as anti-semites. That it is a semantic fiction. here

You follow by suggesting that any anti-jew or anti-Israel comments are false flagged by hasbara. here

Then you change course and admit that there is anti-jewish sentiment in this sub-reddit. here

Followed by a new tactic that even if there are anti-jewish comments in here, the issue really is free speech more than anything else. here

Despite your admission of the anti-jewish undercurrent in the anti-zionist movement, you accuse me of using the tactics of a hate group calling your attention to the movement you are defending. here

Then you challenge the audacity of stating that there are anti-jewish factions among the anti-zionists. More evidence that I'm using zionist tactics. here

Then, hilariously, you suggest that the concept of hate speech was invented by the zionists. here

Then you continue to assert that any allegation of anti-semitism is merely a tactic of the anti-zionists. Notwithstanding your admission that there are in fact anti-semites in the anti-zionist movement, including in this subreddit. here

Then you change course and admit that hate speech wasn't invented by the zionists. here

It's been quite a ride but I think we're coming to the end of our discussion.

Can we agree that while free speech is very important we should work together to discourage anti-jewish comments from this subreddit because they hurt the legitimate anti-zionist movement? We can continue to support discussion of how awful the zionists are but we can work together to discourage overt racism, prejudice, scapegoating, bigotry and hatred. We both hate those things, right?

Does this sound reasonable to you?

If you are unaware that it is illegal in the EU the UK Canada and Australia to engage in "hate speech" then you are not paying attention. The phrase, the definition and the legislation is zionist and only protects zionist interests. One of their interests is "the jews" - their hiding place.

Hateful speech is repugnant but we should NOT conspire to limit free speech. That you should suggest this as some sort of "agree to disagree" resolution makes it clear that you have not understood anything I have said.

You are defending jews. They are not being attacked. r/conspiracy is NOT a hangout for anti-jewish bigots nor is it a place of anti-jewish sentiment. That you see it that way may be more a predisposition on your part than anything else. That "we" should try to assuage your insecurity by working together to discourage people from offending your over-sensitivity to persecution is again the tactics of the aforementioned groups.

That you are so defensive of jews and not Obama and blacks has made me suspicious of your motives and affiliations. Your constant attempt to change the subject to me, my beliefs, or my perceived inconsistencies is not the conscious cogitation of an open mind but rather the tactics of the enemies of free speech.

You are not defending the world or the jews or the Israelis neither are you standing up for any nobel cause. You are hiding your own personal fear and insecurity behind a facade of defending the jews against anti-jewish comments "racism, prejudice, scapegoating, bigotry and hatred". This is transparent boilerplate and I have engaged you in this conversation to expose you and people like you.

Free speech includes "hate speech".

The phrase, the definition and the legislation is zionist and only protects zionist interests.

Get your head out of your ass. It aims to protect all minorities. Look at the case law.

You are defending jews. They are not being attacked.

So you've changed your mind again?

That you are so defensive of jews and not Obama and blacks has made me suspicious of your motives and affiliations.

I've never seen blacks attacked here. There are numerous anti-jewish comments in this subreddit however. If blacks were being attacked in the same way, I'd be supporting the blacks. According to you, my dislike of racism in this subreddit is suspicious.

Your constant attempt to change the subject to me, my beliefs, or my perceived inconsistencies is not the conscious cogitation of an open mind but rather the tactics of the enemies of free speech.

Take a look at my last post again. You flip flop all over the place.

I made a point of telling you I've seen no evidence of you being an anti-semite, but you have been insinuating the entire time that I'm a zionist. You don't see the irony that you're trying to silence me with that charge. It's classic misdirection out of the zionist playbook.

This is transparent boilerplate and I have engaged you in this conversation to expose you and people like you.

I'm sorry to say you're the one who has exposed yourself as, not only an enemy of free speech, but a supporter of racism and hate speech. Your double talk, red herrings, misdirection, flip flopping and fear of criticism, all under the guise of supporting free speech is revealing.

If you really thought hateful speech was repugnant you would volunteer to comment on it when you see it and downvote it. Challenging that shit sends a message, not only to the commenter but to everyone who reads it. Your unwillingness to do that is explicit evidence that you, in fact, support it.

For shame.

Now you are trying to get me to feel shame?

I AM a supporter of so called "hate-speech" because I am a supporter of FREE SPEECH.

I do not pay attention to hateful people in real life or on reddit.

You want me to work with you to suppress the expression of ideas that you fear. You go out of your way to look for it and to express your opposition. Who does that? I do not have time to look for racism and hate speech so that I can comment on how offensive it is. Only shills have that agenda.

The reason you have seen no evidence of me expressing so called ant-semitism is because I have not expressed any. Though I am sure you searched for it.

I have called you out.

I am exposed as a defender of FREE SPEECH.

All that's necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing.

Edmund Burke

Feel free to continue to do nothing, but please don't think of yourself as a good man.

I do my best to disillusion people. You are deluded to think that your attack on free speech is a defense of the jews. You have invented an evil that does not exist and you use that as an excuse to hide your true motives. There is more anti-global-warming-is-a-hoax-ism and apollo-hoax-ism than ant-semitism here.

You are locked in an imaginary battle and you imagine that you are a good man fighting evil. I choose not to join you and despite what you would wish I am not embarrassed or ashamed of that decision.

I do not think of myself as a good man. I think of myself as a great person and there is nothing you can do to change that although I am sure you will try. I do not grovel in fear and self pity.

I'm glad to hear it, because every time I try to chime in, it's like talking to a toddler who is intentionally confusing the issue. "Stop hating jews" "Zionists are ruinging the world though!" "FINE, but you are ruining this subreddit by slandering a whole race/religion of people" "you do know what Zionists want, right?" Slams head into desk

But the OVERALL POINT here isn't wether or not they are Jewish, it's weather or not they are Zionists. Mulsims=\=terrorists. Religion and race shouldn't even be on the fucking table, there's no need to justify a bias toward one or the other, as it's completely irrelevant. ZIONISM is the enemy, a Zionist by any race, creed, or religion.

Last I checked, Israel was still THE JEWISH STATE

But you all support not sharing with non jews.