That's paranoia, it isn't healthy.

Paranoia can keep you alive while other people die who didn't listen.

It can also convince you that your 8th grade math teacher is plucking hair out of your head while you sleep.

No, I'd attribute suspicions like that to schizophrenia. There's caution and then there's lunacy. Better safe than sorry, isn't that what they say?

How does making an uneducated guess about what cell phone cameras are used for, then subsequently believing in that guess with no evidence whatsoever, represent safety rather than lunacy?

I have a name for you; ThinThread. And lets not forget the new 2bn surveillance installation being built which can store YOTTAbytes of data...

If a capability exists, I'll take no chances in being exploited by it. So far my worst nightmares have come to fruition when it comes to a surveillance state where political dissent is considered terrorism, and which is why I don't share my online life IRL. If I can, without hampering daily my life, I'll stick with paranoia. So far, it's kept me safe. I've talked to several WW2 survivors, in the flesh, a few of whom had the wits to get out of the hot zone before Hitler started gassing everybody.

Better safe than sorry.

Better safe than sorry.

If you're posting here, you're on a list.

It's good that I'm behind 7 proxies. ;)

I'll stick with paranoia. So far, it's kept me safe.

What's an example of something that would have harmed you had you not been paranoid?

Nice try, cops. ಠ_ಠ

So this idea trumps the fact that you would need a camera on the front of your device to do video chat? Because that seems like a much more likely reason for the newer devices to have a camera on the front...

That is the feature that convinces you to buy the device, yes.

I believe that having one camera...

In order to believe something, you need proof of it happening. Do you have any evidence?

1. The world's most popular smartphone OS (Android) is open source, and the second most popular (iOS) has been thoroughly hacked and jailbroken. These types of transmissions would be exceedingly easy to detect, yet none ever have been. Nor is there any code in place making it possible at all. Wouldn't that be the first evidence necessary in believing something like this?

2. Mass-surveillance is of little use to any intelligence gathering body, especially camera data. Peeping into the homes of every living soul makes for a great conceptual novel, but a terribly ineffective and wasteful means of data gathering.

3. Is it more, or less likely that a front-facing camera was introduced independently by dozens of phone manufacturers based on consumer demand?

4. Front-facing cameras didn't originate in US-sold phones. Do countries like Korea have more of an interest in population surveillance?

5. With all of the cell phone manufacturers out there, and the constant leaks of yet-to-be-released products to the internet, it would stand to reason that at least one would leaked a memo from the NSA detailing the need to install additional cameras in phones. Hundreds, or more likely thousands, of engineers, administrative employees, accountants, and programmers would have to be complicit. Most of them in countries with no interest in furthering US agendas. Why have none come forward?

I love this "why have none come forward argument". Why does no one come forward on most any subject? Why does no one come forward with detailed information as to the scope of intrusion by the government with regard to powers granted via the Patriot Act? Two Senators stated that the public would be horrified if they new the details, of which countless thousands of people would need to be involved. Yet no one comes forward. The lack of proof is hardly reason to feel safe when prior behavior dating back decades should tell you otherwise.

Whisteblowers are one slice of the evidence pie. So many people have come forward about corruption and lies throughout history that we have actually created a word specifically to describe them.

I like to believe in things that are backed by verifiable evidence. So far there have been zero pieces of evidence collected supporting the claim made by the OP. Do you agree or disagree with that statement?

The CIA has a lot of legal restrictions against spying on American citizens. But collecting ambient geolocation data from devices is a grayer area, especially after the 2008 carve-outs to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. Hardware manufacturers, it turns out, store a trove of geolocation data; and some legislators have grown alarmed at how easy it is for the government to track you through your phone or PlayStation.

Wired's Spencer Ackerman

CIA Director David Petraeus admits the government could, and likely would, spy on citizens through their appliances, as "smart home" devices become a market reality.

So, you have admitted intent, proven technology, and the legislation that allows it; what more do you need?

Edit: What do you suppose this disgusting piece of property will be used for? Terrorists?

Evidence that it's happening.

That's the easiest evidence to collect, as we have the source code of the most popular OS, and the ability to track all data sent and received from the other popular OS. These exact techniques have exposed privacy violations such as the iOS "Path" app uploading contact info to their servers without permission. So why haven't these techniques exposed large chunks of camera data being sent to the NSA, or any other servers?

In order to say something is happening, you need to have evidence of it happening. Not speculation that it could happen. Is there any empirical evidence of cell phone cameras being used for government surveillance?

There is ample evidence smart phones are being used for government surveillance. You're argument is that you believe they won't use the front facing camera? Why wouldn't they?

There is ample evidence smart phones are being used for government surveillance.

Do you have any credible sources which detail this surveillance? Have programmers, scientists or engineers found this data and collected it?

You're argument is that you believe they won't use the front facing camera?

No, my argument is that there is no evidence which demonstrates camera data collection by a government or any other entity. If it were happening, the evidence would be trivial to collect, yet none has been.

feds stonewall on cellphone surveillance

your apps are spying on you

Carrier IQ

Inferring User Behavior

Reverse Surveillance Camera

Smartphones can be used to keep a targeted individual under surveillance

Smartphone Users Screwed By Surveillance Data

It isn't happening because no one has told me how to do it.

Why would anyone detail how to do something for free when that information is worth quite a bit of money? The intent is obvious and proven. If you want to wait until you are given undeniable proof, the framework, method, and practice will be cemented and there will be nothing you can do about it.

This is mostly stuff about consumer info for ad data, apps in which you knowingly use your camera to send video, and one article about surveillance which doesn't detail any evidence. Stuff we've known about for a long time.

You're skirting my questions. The assertion made by the OP is that a second camera was added to cell phones because the first one wasn't providing ample surveillance data. This implies that it is known that camera data is being collected, despite no evidence to support that claim.

The question: Has camera surveillance data been intercepted from smartphones? Yes or no. If yes, please provide a source. If no, please concede that you have no evidence of this occurring.

Hackingteam.it intrusion pack You'll notice that audio & VIDEO is included in their intrusion kit.

FinSpy Wonder what that greyed out area is about?

These are companies that sell intrusion kits to law enforcement and governments. The evidence you are looking for is what, exactly? Someone to give you information for free that is currently being developed and sold for millions? You have been given intent, legislation, infrastructure development, obfuscation of deployment, promos for the products themselves. If you need anything more than that, you are just being silly and asking for things that are just not available to the general public. If I have proof of concept, I have something I can sell.

Here's another one. Vupen! Lovely people at Vupen.

Okay, so security firms provide security consulting to law enforcement. Now that we've got that bombshell out of the way... has government camera surveillance data ever been intercepted from a smartphone?

I keep going back to the original assertion of this post, but you keep dancing around it. All it takes is one photo captured without permission, then transmitted to the government without permission. This would be exceedingly easy to detect and intercept. This is the exact sort of thing that hackers and security experts base their careers on finding. Name one instance of this ever occuring.

Here's what actual security experts have to say about surveillance software like "Hacking Team": http://kevtownsend.wordpress.com/2011/11/28/hacking-teams-rcs-hype-or-horror-fear-or-fud/

You're a fucking idiot, and I'm done discussing this with you. Your only purpose for even posting in this sub is to detract from discussion and jack yourself off. I truly hope you are being paid to be so ignorant, otherwise it's just sad. Kindly kiss my ass, you cunt.

I accept your intellectual defeat, have a nice day.

[deleted]

What qualifications do you have that would encourage me to trust you on this? Do you care to address any of the points I made above?

amateur_asshole is from r/conspiratard. Pay no attention to him.

Nice, set that bar for discourse ever higher.

Something tells me you aren't here to discuss anything. In one of your other comments you asked about detecting photo transmission after being supplied with a product promo that states it's accomplished w/o detection. Either you can't read, or you are here with an agenda. That agenda isn't discussion. I think I will agree with the other poster who described you as a cunt. Seems a fitting description.

I referred to him as a fucking cunt. If you are going to quote me, please don't paraphrase.

The product promo for an untested bit of software which security experts say is nothing more than a run-of-the-mill rootkit. That's the part you want to believe out of all of this? If data needs to get from one place to the next (your phone to NSA headquarters), it has to be sent to them using existing technologies (cellular, wifi, USB). The types of transmissions that the OP is asserting are happening are not being detected by scientists, security experts, engineers, or anyone else.

My agenda is applying logic and critical thought to the OP's assertion that front-facing cameras were added to phones because the NSA wasn't getting adequate data from the rear-facing cameras. There's no evidence to support this assertion, but many will add it to their conspiracy lexicon untested, or as Glenn Beckesque questions-as-statements like "don't you think it's a little odd that all these cameras started showing up in phones?"

If you really think the NSA is dying to know what your ceiling fan is up to, stick a piece of tape on your phone and be done with it. If you want others to believe you, provide evidence from reliable sources. I am exceedingly proud to say that I don't include guesswork and speculation in my worldview, so if I have an agenda, it's trying to bring a little logic into the room before someone's lunch break rumination of "hey, extra cameras on phones, I wonder if..." becomes part of the "factual" canon of the internet. No apologies. If that's cunty behaviour, then we need more cunts and fewer blind followers.

The types of transmissions that the OP is asserting are happening are not being detected by scientists, security experts, engineers, or anyone else.

Which Scientists are busying themselves fervently searching for these Transmissions?
Who is funding them?
What sort of as yet unclassified surveillance transmissions have they detected?
Why would they give out this information when they could just sell their detection method?

This subreddit is not, "things the government wishes to hide that are undeniably true", now is it? I still contend you are a cunt with an agenda.

Which Scientists are busying themselves fervently searching for these Transmissions?

There are literally thousands of people whose job involves looking for things exactly like this. RF engineers, researchers, hackers, security firms... The iPhone app "Path" was outed in a matter of hours for sending unauthorized data back to Path's servers. The hacker who discovered it explains:

It all started innocently enough. I was thinking of implementing a Path Mac OS X app as part of our regularly scheduled hackathon. Using the awesome mitmproxy tool which was featured on the front page of Hacker News yesterday, I started to observe the various API calls made to Path’s servers from the iPhone app. It all seemed harmless enough until I observed a POST request to https://api.path.com/3/contacts/add.

Simple stuff. If a phone needs to get information from one point to another, it has to be sent there. Unless you're suggesting the phones have a secondary non-standard transmitter, as was a popular theory during the "digital TV converter boxes have hidden cameras" conspiracy from a few years back.

Who is funding them?

Thousands of different sources. Some, like our guy above, are doing it for free, so "no one" in their case.

What sort of as yet unclassified surveillance transmissions have they detected?

So far, the evidence points to none.

Why would they give out this information when they could just sell their detection method?

Because that's not how hacking, security or engineering works.

I still contend you are a cunt with an agenda.

That's fantastic. I'd rather be a cunt with critical thinking skills and an eye for logical fallacy, than a non-cunt who follows the pack.

Why don't you go lay down some of your critical thinking skills in this thread? Seeing as you have no agenda, I'm sure you won't be able to resist.

Here is a comment to get you started. It's dripping with conspiracy loonacy.

edit: 45 minutes later, he still has not commented in a thread about this very subject in r/netsec. Apparently he doesn't feel as though they would benefit from his logical acumen. r/conspiratard posters should be banned from this subreddit, as their entire reason for coming here is to make fun, detract, and promote an agenda history does not agree with.

edit: 45 minutes later, he still has not commented in a thread...

Seriously? You're watching and timing me?

I've run out of time for reddit today, I have much else to do. Still no evidence in this thread that the NSA forced cell phone manufacturers to add front-facing cameras to phones. Let me know if any pops up.

That wasn't the argument at all. The discussion was if they can be used for surveillance. It really seems like you'd be compelled to drop some of your amazing logic down in that netsec thread, but perhaps that's not on your agenda today?

That wasn't the argument at all.

This is literally the topic of this thread:

I believe that having one camera was beginning to cause a problem for the nsa. People usually laid their phones on the camera side.

perhaps that's not on your agenda today?

I'm not interested in that thread, or in claiming that surveillance is not possible. Of course it is. The claim is that a surveillance plot so massive is underway that just one camera on a phone isn't enough to get all the necessary data (shots of ceiling fans, insides of pockets, stuff like that I presume). There is no evidence of any of this happening.

Read my original comment again and again let me know if we are or aren't discussing the NSA forcing cell phone manufacturers to change hardware and software at their behest.

Do you believe that front-facing cameras were a consumer-driven innovation, or an NSA plot?

When did I ever claim that the addition of a frontside camera, or any camera, was at the direction or suggestion of any government agency? The entire discussion you and I were having was simply on whether or not it could be used for surveillance. That was all, and you continued to pretend that it could not, because there has yet been no image or transmission snooped by whitehat hackers. Your entire agenda was to convince the poor guy worried that his device might spy on him that he was paranoid.

there has yet been no image or transmission snooped by whitehat hackers

This is a fact, and I'm glad you're finally on board with it.

Your entire agenda was to convince the poor guy worried that his device might spy on him that he was paranoid.

OP is, by definition, paranoid.

There is a difference between telling someone that the capability is present, but they aren't important enough for it to be used on them, and telling them that what they are worried about is impossible and they are crazy.

The OP believes, without any evidence, that the NSA forced cell phone manufacturers to install front-facing cameras in smartphones as part of a massive coordinated surveillance plot. A plot that would have to include all cell phone manufacturers worldwide, and completely ignore the fact that front-facing cameras were available outside of the US first, and popularly requested by consumers inside the US.

His post is:

1. impossible

2. crazy

3. paranoid

Again, it's not impossible. If the NSA wants to turn your camera on, they can find or buy a way. There is evidence that every single sensor contained in your device can be activated remotely. I provided that to you. The only evidence you pointed to that counters that claim, is the lack of someone who could make a ton of money by selling the info deciding not to and disclosing the exploit for some google chump change, or just gratis. In fact, every exploit that is closed, was at one time open. The product info I provided you even admits that their ability manipulates zero day exploits, which by definition are temporary. Aside from that, you have no idea what backdoors are present in Google, or Microsoft products. Your only hope that there is none, is just that, hope. OP's post is paranoid in thinking the NSA dictates product rollout, and that he is somehow interesting enough to spy on.

Sorry man I think you're reaching a little bit. The fact that everyone has atleast computer in there home, if not on their person, does seem a little Ingsoc to me though.

Yup, you figured it out...the goverment actually employs 150million people to watch the other 150million people on there camera phones constantly

actually thats absurd, 200million people watch 100million people on camera phones for period of 12hour shifts

goverment employee's need time off

I think the OP idea is funny and make sense and would be a perfect joke for a guy like Louis CK (now that George Carlin is dead).

BTW, that's not how surveillance works, you don't need a person for a person to listen. You record everything from everybody and when you need something against a specific person, you start digging in their shit to find what you are looking for.

I can confirm this, I am one of the 200 million watchers. My underground facility employs nearly 250,000 people.

It sucks when the person you're monitoring has there phone in the pocket doesnt it, happens to me all the time :-(

Yeah. I feel bad for the overnight shifts. I've heard horror stories of the boredom at the office.

This thread is being downvoted by r/conspiratards on one of their daily mastabetory excursions to make themselves feel good about being tools. The mods should ban all known r/conspiratard posters, as they provide no useful discussion here and only serve to detract from this subreddit.

And they can see your reaction to whatever you're looking at on your phone :O

mobile you porn doesn't seem like an option anymore :(

Sorry man I think you're reaching a little bit. The fact that everyone has atleast computer in there home, if not on their person, does seem a little Ingsoc to me though.

This is mostly stuff about consumer info for ad data, apps in which you knowingly use your camera to send video, and one article about surveillance which doesn't detail any evidence. Stuff we've known about for a long time.

You're skirting my questions. The assertion made by the OP is that a second camera was added to cell phones because the first one wasn't providing ample surveillance data. This implies that it is known that camera data is being collected, despite no evidence to support that claim.

The question: Has camera surveillance data been intercepted from smartphones? Yes or no. If yes, please provide a source. If no, please concede that you have no evidence of this occurring.

amateur_asshole is from r/conspiratard. Pay no attention to him.

When did I ever claim that the addition of a frontside camera, or any camera, was at the direction or suggestion of any government agency? The entire discussion you and I were having was simply on whether or not it could be used for surveillance. That was all, and you continued to pretend that it could not, because there has yet been no image or transmission snooped by whitehat hackers. Your entire agenda was to convince the poor guy worried that his device might spy on him that he was paranoid.