The problem is simply that reddit is so large. It's presence is too conspicuous. Everyone knows about this site, and it's visited by everyone from grandpa on down to those who've only recently learned how to type. I'm not trying to say it's too mainstream and therefore is no longer cool. It's just a simple fact. Attempting to have an open discussion on any topic in this type of environment is almost futile. Aside from the multitudes of people there are also obviously present a myriad of people from many an alphabet agency. It seems to be how all forums evolve, and ultimately die.

I try to influence even those who are paid to oppose my view.

Maybe they'll become disgusted with their influence and their job. Those are the ones who it is most fruitful to change the minds of, if possible.

Even if those persons persist, their views are made clearly impotent in the face of the clearer truth.

The Russian government does a lot of astroturfing on stories critical of President Putin (not so much on reddit, but newspaper websites).

On reddit, the most obvious astroturfing occurs on stories relating Obama and his glaring lack of a (genuine) US birth certificate. Of course, some of the downvoters could just brainwashed idiots who have been told the issue is just a partisan "anti-Obama" smear.

I can't decide if I prefer redditors who are duplicitous or stupid.

RT has nothing but great things to say about the man. He's even been portrayed as some sort of superman. Supposedly he fought off the Rothschild's controlling their central bank. I often wonder if it's all true, or if perhaps they are using a subsidiary, and Russia is nothing but controlled opposition.

They just hate the black man! That's what my friend says at least, and when he says something like this he fucking means it. He equates any person who attacks Obama to Ken Starr.

Oh look, a birther. How....sad. 2008 called, they want their disproven conspiracy back.

Oh look, a dickhead. How sad.

Oh look, a conspiratard acting like a child. How..... expected.

I'd rather be dickhead than believe in an already disproven (multiple times) conspiracy theory. I mean, you do know Obama was born in Hawaii, right?

Nope. I don't "know" and neither do you. Stop pretending to know things like that with absolute certainty. He certainly hasn't proven it in any substantial way. Hell, even his own lawyers admitted in court that his birth certificate was a fake and should not be allowed as evidence.

"An attorney representing Barack Obama has argued in court that the long-form birth certificate image released by the White House nearly a year ago should not be placed into evidence.

It was April 10 at a three-hour eligibility hearing before a New Jersey administrative law judge that Alexandra Hill made the argument.

Hill, legal counsel representing Obama’s re-election campaign, argued that New Jersey law does not require Obama to present a valid birth certificate to establish his qualifications under Article 2, Section 1 of the U.S. Constitution and be placed on the New Jersey Democratic Party primary ballot.

Hill repeatedly explained to Judge Jeff S. Masin, “We do not believe the president’s birth certificate is relevant to this case.”

Agreeing with Hill, Masin ruled in a written opinion the same day that New Jersey law does not require Obama to produce any proof he is eligible to be president to be placed on the primary ballot.

Noting that New Jersey law allows a nominating petition endorsing a particular person for president to be filed without the consent of the person endorsed, Masin said, “There is no obligation upon the person endorsed to prove his or her qualification for office.”

At the hearing, Masin prevented petitioner’s counsel Mario Apuzzo, who has argued a number of eligibility cases in court, from placing Obama’s birth certificate into evidence. Nor was Apuzzo allowed to call to the stand a witness willing to offer expert testimony that Obama’s birth certificate is a forgery."

How sad. You pathetic scared little man. Go dig a hole and hide in it.

Haha, funny stuff. Source? Also, explain the birth announcement from when he was born..... actually, don't bother. I'm not in the mood to read through a bunch of infowars and prisonplanet links.

Is there a source for that quote? I'm actually curious, because I didn't realize there was a legitimate argument that his birth certificate is fake. You'll forgive me if it's hard to trust an unsourced quote on the internet, though.

There is LOTS of evidence that his birth certificate was faked, and not much evidence for the other claim except for "You aren't one of those fucking stupid birthers... Are you? (insert insult to intelligence, close with suggesting that your opponent is a child and you are somehow more intelligent and mature.)"

Works like a charm on the ego based mind.

Ok, cool. Do you happen to know any evidence or references offhand, or is there a particular thread here you could direct me to? I'm also still interested in what article that quote came from.

9000SINS repeatedly makes vague claims but if you ask him a question he wont answer it

You sir are a troll. I have been working 15 hour days for the last three days with little to Internet access. Great comment.

"The attorney for the other side asks the Obama lawyer to stipulate that the birth certificate on the internet is not evidence in this case. She stipulates that because, quite plainly, it wasn't introduced into evidence in this case. The case wasn't about that document, it was about whether or not Obama was required to produce a birth certificate to the New Jersey Secretary of State. Obama didn't produce any birth certificate to New Jersey real, fake, online, hard copy, or anything. It isn't evidence in the case so when asked, Obama's lawyer had no problem stipulating that it isn't evidence in the case. At no point in the hearing does Obama's attorney state the birth certificate is fake. There are lots of right-wing blogs claiming she does make that claim, but not a single one can specify where this statement takes place.

The lawyer tries to frame the stipulation in a way that benefits his side better, but the judge re-frames it before the Obama lawyer stipulates. He wants her to stipulate that it isn't evidence of his birth certificate. The judge clarifies that she is only stipulating that it isn't evidence in this case which is just plainly true."

Source(s): It comes at the end of the final video here.

http://counterpsyops.com/2012/04O/17/obam…

More info:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0312/73537.html

Counter arguments:

http://www.examiner.com/article/expert-says-president-obama-s-online-birth-certificate-is-real

http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/

Your first link hasn't been copied correctly. As to the second link, basically some expert says it's real, some forum says it isn't, and there's a whole debate on the internet over it. After reading through some of the forums, like the one mentioned in that article, and watching a couple videos from Alex Jones and someone else, I'm not at all convinced it's fake. I don't know enough about this stuff to give a real opinion, but it seems like the optimization process that someone would use to shrink the image file would produce a lot of the effects people are finding with layers and such.

But let's assume it has been altered. There's still an easy explanation: it's general government policy not to release a document that could be easily altered or counterfeited. So when they release pictures of passports, they'll put an "Example" stamp over it or something to make it hard to forge a passport. It seems pretty likely that when the Hawaii Health Department was asked for the certificate, they had to modify it a little because the certificates from 1961 were just black text on white paper, and they didn't want to release a document that could assist forgeries and such. So they added a background and possibly edited some of the text because the background made it hard to read. This could have been done at the White House too, I don't know.

Ok, so that's total conjecture. I've made a totally uninformed guess as to why the document might have been altered. The point is, assuming it was a forgery is total conjecture too. I don't understand why my conjecture should be less believable than yours. When the Hawaii Health Director confirms the documents are real, some Adobe expert confirms it's real, and a bunch of random photoshop users think it's real, why not believe it? From my perspective, it's questionable that the document was altered, and even more questionable that such an alteration could be a forgery.

I am still interested in seeing that court case, though.

I use photoshop all the time and I am experienced with many different models of scanners. I do not know of any scanners that do what this photoshop expert says the software does. The document in question was also released in illustrator format instead of just a scan of the original document. Add this to the questionable selective service registration card and now you are starting to see the cracks in the story. I don't know anything about this with any certainty, I just have unanswered questions. I never once invalidated anyone's conjecture. I am simply stating again what I have found.

The real question is, is it real until proven fake, or vice versa?

Yes, it's real until proven fake. If you make a claim, you need to prove it. I've never heard about this selective service card, so I'll go look that up. I'd still like to see a reference to this trial you were talking about earlier. The link you posted to psyops didn't copy correctly or something.

Edit: Ok, so there seem to be only two "clues" with the selective service card. There's a really tenuous argument that his signature looks more like his modern one than his older, but they're so similar that it's basically a matter of opinion unless some handwriting expert comments. Second, there's this fact that it says 80 instead of 1980, and the forger couldn't find a 1980 stamp so they used 2008 and flipped the 08. Seriously? I guess it's a little unusual that it doesn't say 1980, but it's harder to believe that a forger wouldn't have been able to use eBay and get an older stamp, because they're on eBay. It's much easier to believe either the Hawaii office was issued different stamps or they just ended up using different ones or cut one in half for some other reason. There's no way anyone could be that incompetent in forging a document.

I also saw a bunch of blogs all excited over the fact that his social security number is 042 and that's from Connecticut so there's no way he got it legitimately. I debunked that with like 3 minutes on Google. We can see the original SSN location codes here. As you can see, Hawaii was only given 2 numbers. Only odd numbers were used in the second part before 1965, so that's 49 possible numbers, and then I guess 9998 numbers for the third part. So that's 979804 possible numbers for Hawaii. I'm pretty sure they could have used up every number by 1961 and just switched to other available numbers. Or, Snopes mentions that his zip code was 96814 and 06814, so a typo or bad handwriting could explain the location code.

I've got questions about Obama's legitimacy. It's not only the mysterious birth certificate which never seem to actually be presented. It's his name change, and his fake social security number, and questions about his parentage, and all the places he lived as a child. They guy has skeletons in his closet, and as yet they haven't quite come out.

If you want an open internet you have to put up with the shit also. I could just as much say you are with the CIA attempting to censor reddit. People are just going to have to study and discern for themselves.

What I've noticed is that the degree of manipulation of a subreddit is largely determined by its size. When a subreddit has upwards of a million subscribers, Hasbara and other propaganda organs and advertising organizations start to put some heavy influence on it. In smaller subreddits, such as this one, the same degree of effort is not made.

I disagree. R/conspiracy is a major sub that they are diametrically opposed to. The shills are here, trust me. Next time someone talks shit to you here, check how old their account is and their comment history. You will see.

It doesn't mean there's no natural discussion; I'm only still on reddit because it still exists. There is just a lot of tripe mixed in, sort of like how newspaper letters to the editor consist of a few actual opinions and a lot of letters from company/government/religious/lobbyist spokespeople talking about how great their employer actually is despite what yesterday's story said.

Letters to the editor are in a very public forum, so there's a lot of public relations BS; as reddit grows and becomes a larger forum, it inevitably comes to the attention of the PR guys and astroturfers. All you have to do is recognize talking points and downvote them, or argue them into oblivion if you have time. Astroturfers have a lot of comments to make; their strength is in quantity, not quality.

Like 9000sins, I disagree. /r/climateskeptics is a small subreddit intended for people who are skeptical of "global warming". Probably less than twenty people comment regularly. Probably half of those actually promote "global warming". Although they sometimes introduce relevant content, I would describe most of their participation as trolling.

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Atheists also disbelieve conspiracy theories at an intrinsic level. Not all of them, but they are quite smug and self aggrandizing in general. Find a naysayer here, and chances are they are also an outspoken atheist. Not generalizing, just relating my years of experience.

When a subreddit has upwards of a million subscribers, Hasbara and other propaganda organs and advertising organizations start to put some heavy influence on it

Source for yet another one of your bullshit claims? Or will you link to a few isolated incidents and some unsourced infowars-type stories?

i'm a COINTELPRO and wat is this?

protest it peacefully. it works for everything else right?

i can't tell if you are joking.

It's the nature of the internet. Discussions can be steered by unknown individuals whose motives are never clear. Reddit, like nearly every other digital playground, is free of accountability, responsibility, and repercussion.

Perhaps. No more (or less) than any other popular site. We're livestock and we're a valuable commodity. Whoever controls us and our opinions gets to wield immense power. If reddit can make Scumbag Steve relevant to thousands, imagine what a corporation, agency, or brilliant intellectual could do with that same potential.

Reddit has always flash mobbed other sites to downvote the shit out of online polls that we didn't agree with. What makes you think the same kind of thing wouldn't happen here? If you don't wish the be apart of reddit anymore, so be it. Create us a new platform that's "shit show" free. This is the best, least "shit show," place we have here on the internet as far as most of us are concerned. Are you new to the interwebs?

Yes, astroturfing is real. No, EPS are not astroturfers. Disagreeing with you =/= paid shill/astroturfer. Some Ron Paul supporters on reddit are using a bot/botnet to downvote anyone who disagrees with RP, however.

The real problem with this subreddit is that any skeptics who ask for evidence or disagree are denounced as shills or the ever popular "disinfo agents". Meanwhile, posters like Ijob911, tttt0tttt, bumblingmumbling, and others routinely post anti-semetic and racist comments and are neither downvoted nor isolated from the conspiracy community. If you want /r/conspiracy to be taken seriously, take care of those problems, not the semi-imagined threat of shills and astroturfers.

[deleted]

Or not be racists assholes would be acceptable also.

Where did I say that? Oh right, I didn't. Of course, people like you damage any credibility /r/con might have. You are racist and a white supremacist, and the proof is in your comment history. You essentially think "Jews control everything". No one in their right mind should take you seriously.

Also, -4 karma? Did you sign me up for the Paulbot downvoter? Or do you and your brethren not understand the purpose of the upvote/downvote system? (Hint: upvote/downvote =/= agree/disagree)

EDIT: Should I even point out that racism isn't even against the rules in this subreddit? No wonder your small-minded opinions flourish here.

Do you see the problem here? You were downvoted (as was I) for your opinion in this subreddit. As far as the political/world issues/news/etc subreddits are concerned, /r/conspiracy is among the worst offenders of downvoting because they disagree.

If they have a downvote brigade, please show some evidence of it.

/r/politics and /r/conspiracy and /r/rant

WITH THE SAME FRIGGIN' Conspiracy B.S.

Sorry troll, I have no more food for you, you may starve now because I won't feed you.

How is it a conspiracy? It's a fact that

Please educate yourself on the definition of the word "conspiracy". Then, educate yourself on the words "theory" and "hypothesis".

When you make an assertion that "a group of people are conspiring to do <x>". You are, in fact, saying that it is a conspiracy. And, if you take it further and provide source references to back your assertioin, you are proposing either a hypothesis or a theory (depending on the quality and relevance of your source references and how well they support your assertion and such).

And conspiracy facts are still conspiracies.

Because of your lack of understanding of these terms, you have knee-jerk reacted to people calling you a conspiracy theorist.... when, in fact, you have proposed a theory about a conspiracy.

I am a conspiracy theorist. I am not ashamed of it, despite the fact that trolls and morons use the term as a pejorative (look that word up, too), because if that's all they can come up with as a retort (point, laugh, and mock the conspiracy theorist) then they've only proven their own ignorance (and, again, despite the circlejerk that inevitably follows such populist karmawhore comments).

tl;dr: if you believe that people are conspiring to do [bad] things, you are a conspiracy theorist. sorry, that's the definition of those words.

So, you looked up the words and are still trying to squirm out of the label, eh? Good luck with that.

You still don't get it. You're a conspiracy theorist, bucking the label because you don't find it flattering. If you think you "told me" something, you're just perpetuating your denial. *shrug* Your choice, dude. But, you're only perpetuating something that's in your own mind.

No. I'm simply stating that you are living in denial about the difference between the definition of the phrase "conspiracy theorist" and its pejorative application. Take, for example, the word "scientist".

In /r/science or /r/askscience, scientists are revered... unless they defy the approved mainstream narrative (Dr. Helen Caldicott, Arnie Gundersen, et al).... then they're "conspiracy theorists". However, this application of the phrase "conspiracy theorist" isn't accurate, because they aren't pointing out conspiracies. They're pointing out things that can (and possibly will) eventually kill millions of people. But, because it's a scary proposition, their ideologies have to be dismissed... with mockery and a pejorative label. And, conversely, when a Japanese "scientist" (notice I put quotation marks this time on that word) says that "smiling will prevent radiation sickness" and the whole scientific community turns a blind eye to that, the term "scientist" becomes a point of mockery.

I'm not calling you a conspiracy theorist like it's a bad thing. You simply have that preconception. You interpret what I say through that preconceived filter. And, the fact that you continue to cry "conspiracy!" about a topic, while also denying that you're a conspiracy theorist is simply denial. It's all in your mind. And, it is your denial in this matter which makes you argumentative about it, constantly trying to debate your way into avoiding the pejorative application, despite the accuracy of the definition.

EDIT (tl;dr)

You: I don't want people making fun of me because I believe there's a conspiracy afoot.

Me: Life's a bitch. No need for you to be one, too.

I've now clicked on all three posts since I found it in /r/politics (and your comment pointing this out). For "I'M NOT A CONSPIRACY THEORIST, BUT [CONSPIRACY]" He's found a fine home here in /r/conspiracy. It's interesting to watch the birth of a newborn conspiratard.

I've now clicked on all three posts since I found it in /r/politics (and your comment pointing this out). For "I'M NOT A CONSPIRACY THEORIST, BUT [CONSPIRACY]" He's found a fine home here in /r/conspiracy. It's interesting to watch the birth of a newborn conspiratard.

Or not be racists assholes would be acceptable also.

Where did I say that? Oh right, I didn't. Of course, people like you damage any credibility /r/con might have. You are racist and a white supremacist, and the proof is in your comment history. You essentially think "Jews control everything". No one in their right mind should take you seriously.

Also, -4 karma? Did you sign me up for the Paulbot downvoter? Or do you and your brethren not understand the purpose of the upvote/downvote system? (Hint: upvote/downvote =/= agree/disagree)

EDIT: Should I even point out that racism isn't even against the rules in this subreddit? No wonder your small-minded opinions flourish here.

Nope. I don't "know" and neither do you. Stop pretending to know things like that with absolute certainty. He certainly hasn't proven it in any substantial way. Hell, even his own lawyers admitted in court that his birth certificate was a fake and should not be allowed as evidence.

"An attorney representing Barack Obama has argued in court that the long-form birth certificate image released by the White House nearly a year ago should not be placed into evidence.

It was April 10 at a three-hour eligibility hearing before a New Jersey administrative law judge that Alexandra Hill made the argument.

Hill, legal counsel representing Obama’s re-election campaign, argued that New Jersey law does not require Obama to present a valid birth certificate to establish his qualifications under Article 2, Section 1 of the U.S. Constitution and be placed on the New Jersey Democratic Party primary ballot.

Hill repeatedly explained to Judge Jeff S. Masin, “We do not believe the president’s birth certificate is relevant to this case.”

Agreeing with Hill, Masin ruled in a written opinion the same day that New Jersey law does not require Obama to produce any proof he is eligible to be president to be placed on the primary ballot.

Noting that New Jersey law allows a nominating petition endorsing a particular person for president to be filed without the consent of the person endorsed, Masin said, “There is no obligation upon the person endorsed to prove his or her qualification for office.”

At the hearing, Masin prevented petitioner’s counsel Mario Apuzzo, who has argued a number of eligibility cases in court, from placing Obama’s birth certificate into evidence. Nor was Apuzzo allowed to call to the stand a witness willing to offer expert testimony that Obama’s birth certificate is a forgery."

How sad. You pathetic scared little man. Go dig a hole and hide in it.

I've got questions about Obama's legitimacy. It's not only the mysterious birth certificate which never seem to actually be presented. It's his name change, and his fake social security number, and questions about his parentage, and all the places he lived as a child. They guy has skeletons in his closet, and as yet they haven't quite come out.

I try to influence even those who are paid to oppose my view.

Maybe they'll become disgusted with their influence and their job. Those are the ones who it is most fruitful to change the minds of, if possible.

Even if those persons persist, their views are made clearly impotent in the face of the clearer truth.

Haha, funny stuff. Source? Also, explain the birth announcement from when he was born..... actually, don't bother. I'm not in the mood to read through a bunch of infowars and prisonplanet links.

Is there a source for that quote? I'm actually curious, because I didn't realize there was a legitimate argument that his birth certificate is fake. You'll forgive me if it's hard to trust an unsourced quote on the internet, though.